TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Tālam & Layam related topics
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violinvicky
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#126

Post by violinvicky » 07 Nov 2009, 02:03

Dear Sharma Sir:

I am going through this thread from the first page. What I find is that many of your responses are truncated halfway through; The posts stop abruptly.. Therefore I miss the complete picture and am not able to understand the basics that you have explained on the subject of 'Talaprastara'.

Are these responses copied from some other thread into here..? Is there another location where the discussions are available in full..?

Following are the examples of incomplete responses that I am referring to:

"to obtain the above two key-figures, Sankhya and Mahapatala and to obtain the" .........?
"sing order of value i.e., by permuting 1-unit we will get only" .......?
"I would like to tell you another easy method. While permuting the figure" ...........?

So what should I do see the complete text of each post ..? Please Help..

With Love
Vicky
Last edited by violinvicky on 07 Nov 2009, 02:04, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#127

Post by vasanthakokilam » 07 Nov 2009, 04:52

Vicky: There is some past data corruption history.

Please post the references to the posts that are truncated to this thread: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... reads.html

The admin will see if it can be recovered.
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msakella
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#128

Post by msakella » 07 Nov 2009, 06:44

Dear brother-member, violinvicky, Previously me too find many of my posts are truncated and reported to the administration. But I did not get any reply.. Later, I almost forgot that and did not review the position.

But, as I have always been used to save everything of all my posts and as I have already saved entire material in my computer, if you want and if you giv e me your email address I shall certainly send it to you by email. amsharma
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rajeshnat
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#129

Post by rajeshnat » 07 Nov 2009, 12:27

msakella garu
If you have saved each and every post ,then you can edit and repost it too sir.
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msakella
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#130

Post by msakella » 07 Nov 2009, 12:54

Dear brother-member, rajeshnat, At this age I do not have that much patience to edit the entire file. More over, every time it is truncated I cannot replay the same. Instead it is more easy to send it by email. That why I wrote accordingly. amsharma
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violinvicky
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#131

Post by violinvicky » 08 Nov 2009, 07:33

Dear VK:
I have alerted the moderator on the "report truncation" thread.

Dear Sharma sir:

My email id is: [email protected]
I would be grateful if you can send me the original text to this email address. Thanks once again.

With Love
Vicky
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msakella
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#132

Post by msakella » 08 Nov 2009, 07:50

Dear brother-member, violinvicky, Just now I have sent two files on Talaprastara to your email address. Kindly acknowledge the same. amsharma
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violinvicky
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#133

Post by violinvicky » 09 Nov 2009, 04:08

Dear Sharma Sir:

Yes. I have received your email with the attachments in tact. I will now start to learn the concepts from the basics and will certainly ask my doubts.

Sir, I have no words to thank Your service for a generation of new Carnatic musical learners such as myself.

With Love
Vicky
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msakella
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#134

Post by msakella » 09 Nov 2009, 07:07

Dear brother-member, violinvicky, This is our culture and every Indian must always work hard to keep it in tact. That’s what I am able to do by the grace of the Almighty. Nothing else great. I shall be extremely happy if you too learn it fully and pass it on to our kids. It is not that hard to learn this topic as many others think. Chi. Vinay Sharva, a Bangalore-kid based in Chicago had swallowed the entire topic within four days only which took four decades of my life. You can also do so. Never hesitate to ask me any detail of it. I am always ready to help you. With all best wishes, amsharma
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vasanthakokilam
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#135

Post by vasanthakokilam » 09 Nov 2009, 11:01

>Chi. Vinay Sharva, a Bangalore-kid based in Chicago had swallowed the entire topic within four days only which took four decades of my life.

Sharmaji, you are in great company. When I read the above statement of yours, I was immediately reminded of what I once read about Ptolemy. He spent a few decades trying to understand what Hipparchus, Menelaus, etc. wrote about Trigonometry. He cleared up all the confusion, cleaned it up and wrote his own book. His Shishya spent 10 years learning it from him. These are now taught in one semester to 10th standard students. But that is all possible because of the giants like Ptolemy ( and early Indian mathematicians too who had worked on Trigonometry ) on whose shoulders we stand. That is the same case with your tireless life long work on Talaprasthara.
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msakella
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#136

Post by msakella » 09 Nov 2009, 13:56

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, I have passed Diploma in Music (Violin) from Andhra University in 1959. In 1961 I have appeared for an Interview for the post of Lecturer in Violin in the Govt. College of Music & Dance, Hyderabad. I may be playing well but even without any teacher-training-certificate (in those days nowhere music-teacher-training-course was available) they have appointed me in that post which helped only to successfully ruin many of the Violin aspirants for nearly 15 years. Later, I woke up a little, and then onwards my teaching abilities gradually increased by 1% yearly in a negative music environment. On the date of retirement in 1996, I can now assess, my teaching ability was not more than 20% while 35% is the minimum pass-mark. More over, adding fuel to the fire, as per our country-wide tradition, since last more than 50 years there was no academic supervision at all upon the teaching staff of the music departments or music colleges. At this juncture, just imagine the fate of my aspirants in the hands of such infficient teacher like me. However, I am successfully retired without any harm. By all this, I felt very bad of my past, and been struggling hard to rectify all my deffects and serve the kids of our music efficiencly to the maximum until my last breath. By the grace of the Almighty I am able to do so in so many ways. amsharma
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kraig
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#137

Post by kraig » 09 Nov 2009, 17:11

Thank you so much for enlightening myself on the subject of Talaprasthara. I first came to this sequence of post just days ago and was having much problem because the chart was missing. I am happy to see it there now. I did attempt to figure out as much as i could. In the process I created a few charts which while they do not coincide with the one put you have so kindly provided i thought i would share as it shows it in a slightly different way that might or might not be useful. I hope i do not show disrepect by doing so.
http://anaphoria.com/tala6.gif
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msakella
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#138

Post by msakella » 09 Nov 2009, 21:19

The mode of writing this table is furnished somewhere in these posts. You can follow that if you need. If you are unable to locate that I shall guide you, if you need. amsharma
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Chandrashekar
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#139

Post by Chandrashekar » 03 Dec 2009, 12:51

Sorry to butt in with an off-topic comment. I was just skimming through this thread ("skimming" because of my extremely limited understanding of all these detailed discussions). But, seeing the dialogue between Sharmaji and sbala reminded me of Adi Shankaracharya's great work "Vakya Vritti" where the Guru responds to the Shishya's questions to help him progressively along the path to reaching his goal (in that case, ultimately realising "Aham Brahmasmi" by himself). This is really a great thread, in the highest traditions of our Guru-Shishya parampara, and I hope more people will gain from all the efforts that have clearly gone into it.
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msakella
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#140

Post by msakella » 04 Dec 2009, 12:04

Dear brother-member, Chandrashekhar, Thank you for your supportive comments. Aspirants to break this hardnut are gradually increasing, amsharma
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vasanthakokilam
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#141

Post by vasanthakokilam » 04 Dec 2009, 20:23

>But, seeing the dialogue between Sharmaji and sbala reminded me of Adi Shankaracharya's great work "Vakya Vritti" where the Guru responds to the Shishya's questions to help him progressively
>along the path to reaching his goal

Well said Chandrashekar. That is quite true. Sharmaji is a great teacher. sbala jumped in with great enthusiasm. We not only learn from Gurus but from "students" as well.
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Member_First
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#142

Post by Member_First » 22 Dec 2009, 09:57

We not only learn from Gurus but from "students" (piluthams..) as well.
Last edited by Member_First on 22 Dec 2009, 09:58, edited 1 time in total.
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SrinathK
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#143 Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK » 02 Sep 2013, 07:22

Dear sir, where may I get the books of yours, namely, 'Indian Genius in tala prasthara,' ‘Permutative genius in Tala Prasthara in Indian music' and ‘Tala prasthara of Sarngadeva's Sangita Ratnakara.' as well ‘Sangeetha Swararaga Sudha'. (The last one is on sangeethapriya I know, but I need a hardcopy for myself). If it is currently available in Chennai, I may be able to get them when I go there next time. Otherwise I could order them online.
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msakella
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#144 Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella » 02 Sep 2013, 14:32

Dear brother-member, SrinathK, The titles, Talaprastarasagaram (Telugu) and Permutative Genius in Talaprastara in Indian Music (English) are the first ever publications on this rare topic by Sangita Academy of Andhra Pradesh and Telugu University respectively to whom I have given the right of publication of these books. Later, in the NTR Government, unlike in any other State in our country, all the Academies have been merged in Telugu University. When, in my extensive research, 80% of the subject of Talaprastara has been increased I have requested the authorities of the Telugu University to re-print them at the earliest while I am alive. Unfortunately, due to the local dirty politics, as usual, they did not respond at all positively (being straight forward, I had many such bitter experiences all along my life). Then, as more than 80% of the matter of them has been increased, I re-wrote them and published them on my own changing the titles Talaprastara Ratnakaram (Telugu) and Indian genius in Talaprastara (English).

Thus, now, the new titles are only available. Among them Indian genius in Talaprastara (English) and later publications, Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara-a critical interpretation (English) and Systematisation of Prastara details of Deshi Talas (English) are available with Karnatic music book centre, Chennai. Sangita Svararaga Sudha (English) is also available with them. You can book them even online.

If you are a resident of US I shall give you another US-address to get all these books. amsharma
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SrinathK
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#145 Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK » 07 Jan 2015, 22:15

Happy to say that I got hold of the 1st book this music season at the book centre. :D
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msakella
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#146 Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella » 08 Jan 2015, 04:56

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

Hearty congratulations, dear. There are two more books to get (1.Indian Genius in Talaprastara, 2.Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara and 3.Systematisation of Prastara Details of Deshi Talas). Don’t worry, if you tell me where you reside I may be able to find any easy way to get them.

Not only in getting them you can also learn it very easily. Our people are very great in making everything difficult but not in making easy even for our own kids. It took me 40 years to get it out fully but I was able to give it to a kid from Bangalore in 40 hours, working from 7 am to 11 pm daily for 4 days with a recess for meals, refreshments and others. It is not that easy to follow that book. Just to give everything out what I came to know I was compelled to write these books in a particular manner in those days and, now at this old age, I cannot rewrite them. But, believe it or not, in the meantime I have found many easy methods for many things to give them out. Very sadly, people are unable to believe me due to their own ego. Their ego is not allowing them even to sit together and discuss things even for the betterment of our own kids and art. That is the pity of our people. We can’t help. amsharma
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SrinathK
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#147 Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK » 12 Jul 2018, 10:22

I was going through this thread last week after a long time. It reminded me of just why rasikas.org was so interesting once upon a time (I stumbled upon it in 2008) when we had so many people sharing and learning so much about music in one place. By that yardstick the overall level of the discussions has indeed declined - people are growing older, many others have passed on, some people no longer come here, many topics have been exhausted, the General Musical discussions page is often synonymous with the lounge, of late there is only a lot of talk if Sangeetha Kalanidhi or TMK comes up and the fraction of venomous air polluting species :mrgreen: seems to have increased a little, while there is a lot more music out there, there is a lot less sharing now...

The related disciplines section however is going on strong as ever. :D

Anyway I digress - all that can be fixed with some fresh energy. I came here to make a point on why certain combinations of rhythmic patterns can't be talas in the modern tala system, which while it has been explained before, I feel needs to be explained a little more clearly.

Take the 16 combinations adding up to 5

5
14
23
113
32
122
212
1112
41
131
221
1121
311
1211
2111
11111

Now, from numbers to actual talangas. If we take the value of Anudhrutam = 1 count, then Dhrutam = 2. If we go for chatushra jaathi, then Laghu = 4, Guru = 8, Plutam = 12 and Kakapadam = 16

It's plain obvious that only the 1st 3 of these 6 are possible here.

And owing to the length of each talanga, only the combinations containing the numbers 1,2 and 4 are permissible. Combinations containing 3 and 5 are not. That eliminates 6 of these 16 and they cannot be rendered as talas, because of this pesky filter called jaathi.

It is possible to throw out the rule book, but then these talas are not a part of the system. They can be called chandas (meters) instead.

It may be argued that 3+2 may be rendered with samyuktangas as Dhruta virAmam + dhrutam, but there is a problem with this.

First, originally the word viraama referred to an element that was half the length of whatever talanga it was attached to. That would work only with chatushra jaathi where Laghu (4), Guru(8), Plutam(12) and Kakapadam(16) had an even number of counts.

This viraamam later became identical to the anudhrutam, which is basically an extra beat before whichever talanga it is attached to. Redundant isn't it?

Now here's the interesting part -- there is a rule that a tAlanga starts with one audible beat. All other counts after that are supposed to be silent. The exception is the kAkapadam, which is totally silent. The tala system was designed this way to measure out the lengths of each talanga properly. Yes I know that no one in practice ever puts a tala like that, but practice = what is convenient.

This is actually the reason why the finger counts for laghu and the handwaving for dhrutam exist. This wasn't done on mere whim. There is a fair bit of thought and research that went into investigating all the movements possible with the hands and how to count in a structured manner with that. I have for a long time been trying to find out how to count on my feet and so I can get the idea.

When tAlangas are combined, the resulting pattern has more than 1 audibly struck beat. If you want to avoid this, the way in which the talangas are rendered on the hands has to be compromised.

Therefore a 3+2 pattern in chatushra jaathi (5th combination), if attempted, will end up as a 1+2+2 (6th combination in the list) or a 2+1+2 (7th), which fundamentally alters the original combination. The original 3+2 pattern is lost and cannot be rendered.

In other words, samyuktanga is fundamentally redundant. You end up rendering it as another pattern adding up to the same total anyway.

Therefore while Anudhrutam + Dhrutam + Dhrutam is possible (1+2+2) and allowed, a direct 3+2 simply does not exist in chatushra jaathi. So while it is possible to trace out which combination of 5 is 1+2+2 (or deduce the pattern from the serial number), the serial number of 3+2 cannot be found because it is not possible.

However, in tisra jaathi, it is possible to render a 3+2 as a Laghu+Dhrutam as L = 3 counts in tisra jaathi. But here, none of the combinations containing 5 or 4 are possible.

This method of trying to understand this topic through numbers first before using actual talangas is special - because it's only covered in this thread. It's not in the book I have. By covering it through numbers, automatically all the keys to mastery of tala and laya is right here in this one topic.
Last edited by SrinathK on 12 Jul 2018, 16:35, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#148 Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella » 12 Jul 2018, 16:07

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

As this permutation is of ‘5’ units, if we write these permutations in terms of Talangas, we have to write Anudruta with figure ‘1’, Druta with figure ‘2’ and Laghu with figure ‘5’. Thus, the permutations carrying these three figures can only be treated as (7) Talas and all others carrying the figures ‘3 & 4” have to be written with ‘Samyuktangas’ and treated as (9) Chando-rupas. amsharma
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SrinathK
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#149 Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by SrinathK » 12 Jul 2018, 16:18

Small clarification - if it is of 5 units, does it mean I have to compulsorily take khaNDa jAti laghu of 5 counts? I was using chatushra jAti laghu of 4 counts.

On counting, I think there are 8 out of 16 patterns which are valid tALAs in khaNda jAti.
5
122
212
1112
221
1121
1211
2111

On a side note, do laghus of 6,8, 10 or 12 counts exist? Logically there is no reason why jAtis can be more than 5, although this itself is enough for several lifetimes.

EDIT : 11111 is the 9th pattern.
Last edited by SrinathK on 12 Jul 2018, 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#150 Re: TALAPRASTHARA ( Combinatorics)

Post by msakella » 12 Jul 2018, 19:41

Dear Brother-member, SrikanthK,

Many of our musicians think that there is only Chaturashra (4) and accordingly brought out Shodashangas (16) which is absolutely incorrect.

Here we must take Khanda-jati-Laghu only. But, who are not aware of the Tala-prastara will write Laghu-virama (4+1=5) which is not correct.

Why did you leave away the ‘11111’, the last one I do not understand. By that, in total, there are ‘9’.

Also there are additional Laghus, Divya-sankeera (6), Mishra-sankeerena (8), Deshya-sankeerna 10), Mishra-deshya-sankeerna (12) and Deshya-shuddha-sankeerna (16). amsharma
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