Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Tālam & Layam related topics
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msakella
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#76

Post by msakella » 09 Apr 2007, 07:52

mridhangam wrote:my gurus Tanjore Ramadoss and Ramanathapuram M N Kandaswamy, did not allow me to play on the mridangam until and otherwise i got the three speed for a particular lesson orally.
Dear brother-member, mridhangam,
In the same manner, every music teacher must start with Chaturashra-jati i.e., ki-ta-ta-ka - 4 syllables per each second (of 3rd degree of speed) which is Maatra-kala - uttering ‘ki-ta’ along with the beat of the right hand followed by ‘ta-ka’ along with the beat of the left hand, to the aspirant whose instinct of Laya is at such a required level that he/she could finish it within one day only and start the 7 Jati-lankaras which he/she could finish them successfully within a couple of days. Unless the aspirant becomes able to spell out the Jati-alankaras in Ata and Triputa-talas in the 3rd degree, he/she should not be taught even the 1st Saralee-svara at all. If all the music teachers follow this we can maintain high-standards and , no doubt, many of the aspirants will become stalwarts. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 09 Apr 2007, 07:57, edited 1 time in total.
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pallavi.pr
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#77

Post by pallavi.pr » 09 Apr 2007, 11:11

Thx Balaji :-)
Will listen to the clippings and get back to you!
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pallavi.pr
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#78

Post by pallavi.pr » 09 Apr 2007, 11:47

Hello Balaji,

I just listened to all the clippings. So informative and educative. Thx a million!

One more request. It would be great if you could similarly record Thani's(Attatched Mohras also) in Mishra Chaapu, Roopaka and Khanda Chaapu Thalams.

2-3 in each. Like you have done for adi thala. You have given different combinations of the purvaanga and uttharaanga. Pls record some chosen 2-3. That wuld be more than sufficient!

We could start with Mishra Chaapu :-)

Also you have mentioned the 3 thala Korvai can be played in Thishram also. Could you pls record that in Thishram for us?

You do not know how helpful your service to music and to the rasikas is!

Awaiting the audios!
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drshrikaanth
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#79

Post by drshrikaanth » 09 Apr 2007, 15:50

nick H wrote:I have my doubts that the details of mridangam fingering is useful/appropriate to this topic. .
I was not sure what prompted this. After seeing Balaji's reply, Im wondering if it had anything to do with my questions. ???

Balaji
Thanks. I see what you say about some solus being palyed/interpreted differently by different artistes. Does that mean tOm can be interpreted as dIm and viceversa. So the follow on question is can the be used interchangeably in korves without affecting the symmetry or ground rules in anyway? This last question is what I think makes it very releavnt to this thread. Iam asking as I want to make myself clear without doubt(If possible :) To a vocalist, it may not seem a big deal but I want to know it from the perspective of a persuccion artiste.

My thoughts were that the basic sollus(7) and the way they are played were unique.

An addon question- I will not belabour this point (If I need to, we can start another thread). The sollus jham, jhaNu- what are they? Are they variations and/or combinations of the basic 7 sollus?
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mridhangam
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#80

Post by mridhangam » 09 Apr 2007, 16:32

What others represent or practice about the sollus tOm and dIm i dont know. I can tell you how i will interpret these two sollus in mridangam or i can tell u how i will play. tOm as a single vibrating syllable can be played on the left hand side at the outer portion of the mridangam. As a thumbrule there is an easy method of playing thom. Just protrude your knuckles inwards and just strike the outer ring of the mridangam on the left side automatically thom sound will emerge since while you strike the knuckles on the outer ring automatillay the tips of other fingers will fall on the inner soft skin of the mridangam. Hence it will vibrate. tOm can also be played with Dhin combination. Dhin is played on the right hand side inbetween the outer circle and inner black circle. There is a small gap between the outer circle and the inner black circle. The Dhin is played there and it is also vibrating. tOm also can be played along with Chaapus. (We can call them Thaam also). Another Sollu which you have mentioned is dIm i take it as Dheem ? then it is RI as it is played on the right hand side on the black patch and a vibrating one. not a closed sound but open sound as being played for Tha Dheenginathom (7) etc. I dont understand your question about interchangeability and also symmetry in korvais with the above sollus. The symmetry is for Kanakkus only or for mathematics only. Symmetry has relevance only upto the point where we are forming mathematical patterns. If you mean playing symmetry and fingering technique to mean the same then we shall try to use fingering technique for playing on the instrument and not symmetry i think sir. Jham and Jhanu are just for the sake of beautifying Konnakkol sollukkattus or Nritya sollukkattus. Jham is almost equivalent to tom as i hv explained above. Jhanu can be played in mridangam in many number of ways:
1) Ta with thom + dhi
2) ta without thom + dhi
3) dhin with thom + dhi
4) dhin without thom + dhi

and so on.

Hope i have made myself clear here sir.
J.Balaji
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drshrikaanth
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#81

Post by drshrikaanth » 09 Apr 2007, 16:54

Thanks for the elaborate answer Balaji. You have also nicely explained the fingering technique to produce the various sollus. It will be very useful to those who play mRdanga.
mridhangam wrote:I dont understand your question about interchangeability and also symmetry in korvais with the above sollus. The symmetry is for Kanakkus only or for mathematics only. Symmetry has relevance only upto the point where we are forming mathematical patterns. If you mean playing symmetry and fingering technique to mean the same then we shall try to use fingering technique for playing on the instrument and not symmetry i think sir.
Perhaps I was not clear enough. My question did not have anything to do with fingering technique at all. What I asked was this- in the pattern you have written, you have used tadinginatom (with dheem) whereas while playing(In the audio you posted), you have played tom in some places while playing dheem in others. (like tatomginatom tadinginatom tatomginatom etc). I asked if that is common and acceptable in practice.

Symmetry- will explain in the next post. Please feel free to ignore my question if for whatever reason, you think it is irrelevant.
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mridhangam
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#82

Post by mridhangam » 09 Apr 2007, 16:59

drshrikaanth wrote:My question did not have anything to do with fingering technique at all. What I asked was this- in the pattern you have written, you have used tadinginatom (with dheem) whereas while playing(In the audio you posted), you have played tom in some places while playing dheem in others. (like tatomginatom tadinginatom tatomginatom etc). I asked if that is common and acceptable in practice.
Yes it is very common to intermingle sollus to produce effects that is all. When you can play thadeenginathom in flat tone also and also using Deem also (what i have mentioned as RI as a vibrating sollu). This creates a very mysterious effect while listening. Anyway this is only as far as playing is concerned. The representation of the same sollu or a combination can be done in many different ways.

That is all sir.

I dont consider any question as irrelevant or to be ignored. I know how difficult it is to express in writing that too such a technical topic as this. Hence i will try to clarify whatever doubts that might arise in any of the Rasikas @org so long as i understand them and also as far as my limited knowledge can express it here.

Thanks again.
J.Balaji
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drshrikaanth
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#83

Post by drshrikaanth » 09 Apr 2007, 17:11

As played by you in the audio sample for post 33-2 (2nd variety)

thakadimi
thadikitathom
thadee, kitathom , , , (4+5+6) (madhyAnga of first cycle)

----

Thadikitathom
thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom , , , (5+6+7) (madhyAnga of second cycle)

----

Thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom
tha de , tadiginatom , , , (6+7+8)) (madhyAnga of third cycle)

If you notice the end of the madhyAnga in the 3rd cycle, what you have played is clearly not in the same pattern as the previous ones. As shown by you in the post, it should be "tha , , de , kitathom". Instead of lengthening the first sollu "tha" to the lenght of 3 subunits, you have kept it as one subunit and filled the other 2 subunits with 2 sollus "ta" & "di" later on. That, to me appeared to disrupt the symmetry. I wish to know if this was just an unintentional interpretation or it is actually alright to play these variations in practice.
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mridhangam
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#84

Post by mridhangam » 09 Apr 2007, 17:36

The Korvai goes like this in 33-2 (2nd variety and not as you have mentioned sir)
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

thakadimi
thadikitathom
thadee, kitathom , , , (4+5+6)

Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha Dhim , Thadiginathom (3 * 8)

Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

Thadikitathom
thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom , , , (5+6+7)

Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , Dhim , Thadiginathom (3 * 9)

Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom , kita thaka tharikita
Dhi , tan,gita thaka tharikitathaka thom , tha , thom ,

Thade , kitathom
tha, de , kitathom
tha, de , kita, thom , , , (6+7+8))

Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom
Tha , , Dhim , Thadiginathom ||Tha (3 * 10)
If you find above the 6+7+8 is mentioned as thadee, kitathom tha, de , kitathom and tha, de, kita, thom and gap of 3.

Yes i have played the 8 in a different way instead of playing tha, de, kita, thom i have played thathom , thadinginathom which is also eight and as i have mentioned after playing 6 and 7 i got that as a natural pattern for 8 and not as mentioned above for the Korvai. Strictly speaking it is a mistake of representation but as far as the kanakku and eduppu and fillers are concerned it is perfectly alright. Symmetrically it may not be correct but kanakku wise it is perfectly correct and it is acceptable also.

J.Balaji
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drshrikaanth
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#85

Post by drshrikaanth » 09 Apr 2007, 17:40

mridhangam wrote:Yes i have played the 8 in a different way instead of playing tha, de, kita, thom i have played thathom , thadinginathom which is also eight and as i have mentioned after playing 6 and 7 i got that as a natural pattern for 8 and not as mentioned above for the Korvai. Strictly speaking it is a mistake of representation but as far as the kanakku and eduppu and fillers are concerned it is perfectly alright. Symmetrically it may not be correct but kanakku wise it is perfectly correct and it is acceptable also.

J.Balaji
ide. idettAn nAn edirppArttEn :) Yes, thanks for clarifying. Of course, the kaNakku is perfect without a doubt.
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drshrikaanth
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#86

Post by drshrikaanth » 09 Apr 2007, 17:50

Ok great. Now I second pallavi.pr's request.

Can the purvanga be patterned in other ways for Aditala korve? Please explain and provide audio sample. Also, kanakku-wise, the ones you have played will also fit rupaka tala. (8x3=24 avartas. Or variations thereof spanning a total of 24 Avartas) )Can they be used as such for rupaka tala?
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rajumds
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#87

Post by rajumds » 09 Apr 2007, 18:39

Balaji sir, Amazing work. Thanks a ton
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drshrikaanth
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#88

Post by drshrikaanth » 09 Apr 2007, 18:55

Balaji
I thought of a simple rupaka tala kOrve- is this ok?

Purvanga (spans 2 avartas)
tarikita tom, taka tatikita tom, kidataka tarikita tom,

uttaranga (spans 3 avartas)
ta , di , ginatom , , ,
ta, di, ginatom ta , di , ginatom , , ,
ta, di, ginatom ta, di, ginatom ta, di, ginatom ||

The whole repeated thrice.
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drshrikaanth
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#89

Post by drshrikaanth » 09 Apr 2007, 19:00

Another simpler kOrve(but aesthetically not so nice due to repetitiveness of pattern in purvanga and uttaranga)
Spans 3 Avartasx3 times

Purvanga
tadiginatom tadiginatom tadiginatom

Uttaranga
ta, di, ginatom ta, di, ginatom ta, di, ginatom |

The whole repeated thrice.
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Nick H
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#90

Post by Nick H » 09 Apr 2007, 20:30

My guruji told me... any adi talam korva can be played for rupaka talam, in fact it teases the audience, as it does not come to samam first or second time, and they think you are making a mistake --- but third time it will some.

Whilst waiting in the car for 15 minutes today I thought to "reverse engineer" a korvai. I don't know if this makes sense to do this for analysis. There are very few that I have committed to memory, but this is our class 'standard' for a long adi talam korvais. I have no doubt Balaji will recognise it!

Whilst it looses beauty when rendered as three parts like this, It is not as bad as I thought it might be...

***First Part***
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom

Dhi Tha Kitathom
Dhi Tha Kitathom
Dhi Tha Kitathom

Tha Kitathom
Tha Kitathom
Tha Kitathom

***second Part***
Tha , , , Dhi , , , Gi , , , Na , , , Thom , , ,
Tha , , Dhi , , Gi , , Na , , Thom , ,
Tha , Dhi , Gi , Na , Thom ,

***Third part***
Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ,
Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ,
Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ||Tha

The proper korvai starts 'Tha kitathom Dhi Tha Kitathom Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom'

I have to confess to reversing that order because I fealt like it!
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Nick H
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#91

Post by Nick H » 09 Apr 2007, 20:47

drshrikaanth, repetition can work! My teacher gave a korvai for one of his student's arrangetrams, consisting only of the line Tha Dhi Ghi Na Thom.

It was for two kallai adi talam, and I think the first Tha , , , Dhi , , , Ghi , , , Na , , , Thom took up ten whole aksharas (tha one two three = two counts).

Each line would have been repeated three times, and the repeating progression would have been even, but I'm afraid I'm not able to reproduce it. And yes, it sounded good!

EDIT... no, perhaps each line, apart from the final one, was not played three times --- it would have gone one for an age.
Last edited by Guest on 10 Apr 2007, 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
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mridhangam
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#92

Post by mridhangam » 09 Apr 2007, 22:03

Dr srikanth sir and Member NickH .. i am extremely happy about the way this korvai session is progressing. By the way where is member VASANTHAKOKILAM ?

Dr.Srikanth's Korvai for Rupaka Tala is very nice. There is a suggestion there if you play the korvai in Madyama Kala it will be dull and drab. Hence i immediately thought of the korvai in Duritakala. It sounds nice and also for playing it will be gud. Just a suggestion.

Dr Srikanth
Can the purvanga be patterned in other ways for Aditala korve?
Kindly refer to other posts here where in i have mentioned about poorvaanga also. The base for Poorvanga is innumerable and they are called "Aasu". Based on this Aasu only we make korvais and set the utharaanga right.


nick H
My guruji told me... any adi talam korva can be played for rupaka talam, in fact it teases the audience, as it does not come to samam first or second time, and they think you are making a mistake --- but third time it will some.
Yes it is absolutely correct. the basis for this is anything we play in adi talam three times. so it is 3 * 4 combination. Anything we play in Rupaka tala is in chatusranadai so it will be 4 *3 always and both are same.

I have lots and lots of techniques for korvais and i shall unleash them one by one after the willing members assimilate.

There are different types of korvais :

1) What we have discussed earlier. With Poorvanga and Utharaanga

2) Poorvaanga, madyanga and utharaanga

3) Ascending or descending korvais

4) Trikaala Korvais

5) Nadai Korvais

6) Misra Korvais (Mixing Chatusra and at the end we can have either Tisra, Khanda Misra or Sankeerna). The advantage here being that we can take off whichever nadai we want after the end portion is any one of them. If the end portion is tisra we can take of Tisra Nadai and so on.

7) Then there are some korvais which start on samam and come to idam.

8) And there are korvais which dont start on samam means may start somewhere in the tala and fall on samam.

Will add to the list as and when i get some more out of research.

Audio Sample of Misra Chaapu will be uploaded shortly.

Thanks for the support
J.Balaji
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vasanthakokilam
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#93

Post by vasanthakokilam » 09 Apr 2007, 22:22

By the way where is member VASANTHAKOKILAM ?
Thanks Balaji...I am here, reading your posts and listening to audio uploads with full interest. Thanks very much for all the education.

We discussed before about a standard format for presenting the solkattus. Is it possible to capitalize the first letter of individual sollus? For example, present thadhiginathom as ThaDhiGiNaThom . That will help someone like me who is still trying to grasp all this. Also, since you mentioned durithakala, indicate that also using some notation/indication that is convenient to you. This way we can count the sollus and correlate with the mathematical pattern and the audio.

Thanks again.
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mridhangam
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#94

Post by mridhangam » 09 Apr 2007, 23:04

Now the uploads about Misra Chaapu Mohara and Korvai.

One is Traditional Mohara

http://rapidshare.com/files/25125787/Tr ... Korvai.mp3

Another is improvised Mohara

http://rapidshare.com/files/25125885/Im ... Korvai.mp3

Member Vasanthakokilam
Thanks for your reappearance. It is very difficult for me to type in alternating characters. I shall try my level best to do so. As it involves alternating between shift keys and other normal keys i am finding it very difficult. hence kindly bear with my notation type until i become familiar with it myself. The durita kaala is nothing but playing the same lesson in next faster speed then the total cycle of the korvai will be reduced to half. Assume if you play a korvai in madyama kala for 4 cycles the same thing played in next durita kala will be only 2 cycles. That is what i meant. As that korvai given by Dr.Srikant sir will be nice if it is played in durita kaala is what i meant and it was an observation and a suggestion.

J.Balaji
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drshrikaanth
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#95

Post by drshrikaanth » 09 Apr 2007, 23:20

mridhangam wrote:Dr.Srikanth's Korvai for Rupaka Tala is very nice. There is a suggestion there if you play the korvai in Madyama Kala it will be dull and drab. Hence i immediately thought of the korvai in Duritakala. It sounds nice and also for playing it will be gud. Just a suggestion.
Thanks Balaji. Would you kindly play and upload the audio sample of this?
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mridhangam
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#96

Post by mridhangam » 10 Apr 2007, 06:40

drshrikaanth wrote:
mridhangam wrote:Dr.Srikanth's Korvai for Rupaka Tala is very nice. There is a suggestion there if you play the korvai in Madyama Kala it will be dull and drab. Hence i immediately thought of the korvai in Duritakala. It sounds nice and also for playing it will be gud. Just a suggestion.
Thanks Balaji. Would you kindly play and upload the audio sample of this?
Sure. Shortly.

But there is a small suggestion to your korvai.

It has to be TaKiTa Thom and not TaRiKiTa thom as mentioned in your post. It might have been a typo. But on a second thought i found that TaRiKiTa thom also fits into two cycles but uttering the sollus will be a little difficult. Hence i make this modification and render two speeds.

TaKiTa Thom
ThaKaThaKiTa Thom
ThaKaDiKu ThaKiTa Thom

(Vasanthakokilam Does it read nice for you now ? But it consumes time.... hahahahah anyway I shall try to encode like this as far as possible)

can be fit into two cycle of Rupaka tala

and your utharaanga is simply perfect and gud.

I shall upload the audio with madyama kala and durita kaala soon.

J.Balaji
Last edited by mridhangam on 10 Apr 2007, 06:55, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#97

Post by vasanthakokilam » 10 Apr 2007, 07:10

>(Vasanthakokilam Does it read nice for you now ? But it consumes time.... hahahahah anyway I shall try to encode like this as far as possible)

Yes, Balaji.. It reads very nicely. I appreciate the extra effort very much. Here are few other proposals which may be less time consuming. Something like this: tha ka di ku tha ki ta thom ( single space sollu separation and three spaces for separating the logical groups ) or tha-ka-di-ku tha-ki-ta thom

Please pick the one most convenient to you. Thanks.
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pallavi.pr
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#98

Post by pallavi.pr » 10 Apr 2007, 10:49

Thx Balaji.

With referrence to #92, I am in awe wrt the diffferent kinds of korvais existing! so nice to know about this! It indeed would be great if you could give us an example of each type of korvai you have mentioned in the form of audio clippings and kindly upload it for us. No hurry, when you can make some time from your schedule! :-) But will be eagerly awaiting the links!

Thx for the mohras in MC. Will listen to them and get back!

Also, what is Duritha kalam?
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mridhangam
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#99

Post by mridhangam » 10 Apr 2007, 11:08

pallavi.pr wrote:Also, what is Duritha Kalam?
Durita kaalam is nothing but faster speed.
There are Vilamba kaalam slow speed
Madyama kaalam - medium speed
and Durita kaalam - Faster Speed.

Ati vilamba kaalam and Ati durita kaalam also are there.

As i have mentioned elsewhere in this article Vilamba kaalam means 1st speed in first speed there is one syllable per beat. Madyama kaalam means 2nd speed where there are two syllables per beat. Durita Kaalam means 3rd speed where there are 4 syllables per beat. The Rupaka tala korvai i might play will be in 4th speed where it will have 8 syllables per beat. I should have mentioned it as ati durita kaala.(The durita kaala i mentioned above is only indicative of faster speed without bothering too much about the technicalities.) May be msakella sir will throw some light on different speeds and the technicalities involved in them.

Thank you
J.Balaji
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pallavi.pr
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#100

Post by pallavi.pr » 10 Apr 2007, 11:20

Thx Balaji for the Gyaan on Duritha Kaalam!
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