Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Tālam & Layam related topics
Post Reply
pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#101

Post by pallavi.pr » 10 Apr 2007, 11:23

Balaji,
M trying to upload one Thani Avarthanam in rapidfire. I had some queries on it. I'm facing some difficulty in retrieving the link where I have uploaded. It displays the page saying that I have uploaded, but I have no details on the location. Kindly help.

Meanwhile I will try to figure out the korvai and type it out.
0 x

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#102

Post by pallavi.pr » 10 Apr 2007, 13:48

Hi Balaji,

I used another uploading engine called sendspace. I was able to upload the thani avarthanam. :-)

The link is http://www.sendspace.com/file/w0htmb

Please could you explain this Adi ThaLam 1 KaLai thani.

In which category (out of the 8 you have mentioned in #92) does this korvai fall?

Generally what I am familiar with is a korvai where the same pattern is repeated thrice.

In the korvai in the link above a pattern is repeated thrice and then there is another pattern which is played only once. And then the son gis taken up immediately.Could you explain the technicalities here? thx.
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#103

Post by mridhangam » 10 Apr 2007, 15:33

Heard the Mohara and Korvai. Excellent. The final pattern is not repeated thrice and you are right about that . The Mohara starts around 1:41 and the Korvai starts around 2:00 and finishes by about 2:25 or so. The korvai itself is very lengthy spanning for 5 avartans and hence for a one kalai if you play for three times it may span for 15 cycles and so i think the mridangist has stopped with one cycle keeping in mind the time constraint. More over we dont know in which concert it was played... live concert ? or radio concert ? or even one hour concert at a foreign venue ? or even a short tani played before the main RTP so many options and possibilities are there for choosing to play the main korvai only once.

The korvai belongs to Poorvanga and Utharaanga pattern only. With Poorvanga first round split goes like this :

14 + 18
second time Ki Ta Tha Ka is added and then 14 + 15
Third time Tha Ri Tha Ri Ki Ta Tha Ka is added and then 14 + 12

and then the utharaanga starts

utharaanga is split in the following way :

Tha , , Dhee , , Gi , , Na , , Thom, ,
tha, dhi , gi , na , thom , tha, dhi , gi , na , thom ,
Ta Dhi Gi Na thom Ta Dhi Gi Na thom Ta Dhi Gi Na thom and then 5 karvai
Tha Ka (in fourth speed that is played for 1 / 4 of a beat) Ta Dhi Gi Na thom Tha Ka Ta Dhi Gi Na thom Tha Ka Ta Dhi Gi Na thom and then 5 karvai
Tha Ka Dhi Ku (in fourth speed that is played 2 /4 of a beat) Ta Dhi Gi Na thom Tha Ka Dhi Ku Ta Dhi Gi Na thom Tha Ka Dhi Ku Ta Dhi Gi Na thom (Pancha Shat Peetha Roopini) (sung by D K Pattammal i think).

Tha Mathematics for the utharaanga is 15 + 18 + 21 with 5 karvais for 15 and 18. Will have to note the representation for 18 and 21 which has been rendered very nicely. for 3 * 6 the mridangist has used 1+5 as the combination and the 1 is having 2 syllables packed in 4th Kaala. Likewise the 3 * 7 is split as 2 + 5 as the combination and the 2 is having 4 syllables packed in 4th kaala.

Excellent work.

J.Balaji
Last edited by mridhangam on 10 Apr 2007, 15:35, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#104

Post by pallavi.pr » 10 Apr 2007, 16:04

Hi Balaji,

The mridangist in the above clipping is PMI. Yes it is DKP indeed. :-)
Thanks for making such a complex korvai appear so simple, thru ur explanation only! (It is gr8 maths indeed!)
0 x

pallavi.pr
Posts: 83
Joined: 05 Mar 2007, 17:32

#105

Post by pallavi.pr » 10 Apr 2007, 16:22

Hi Balaji,

Here's another mohra korvia in Adi TaaLa which follows the krithi in gowlipanthu:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/v0eala


I guess this is as good as the previous one! Do let me know!
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#106

Post by mridhangam » 10 Apr 2007, 21:59

This Tani posted in #105 is an excellent example of Mohara itself played in a different speed. The mohara is a mixture of 5th and 4th speed. Actual Mohara is played in 5th speed since the Tala was very slow so as the song. Hence the artiste (I think Trichy Sankaran or anyone of the Palani Subramania Pillai School) has played the Mohara at a higher speed. Normally Adi Tala Mohara will come for 4 avartanas but this mohara has been packed into two avartanas since the Kaalapramanam was slow. So is the Korvai which has been played in a higher speed. The Korvai is typical of Palani Subramania Pillai School.

Tha , Dhi , Ta Ki Ta Thom, Tha di gi na thom tha , , ,

Dhi , Ta Ki Ta Thom, Tha di gi na thom tha , , ,

Ta Ki Ta Thom, Tha di gi na thom Ta Ki Ta Thom, Tha di gi na thom Ta Ki Ta Thom, Tha di gi na thom (Tha)

It is a two avartana korvai.

I shall shortly upload the korvai given by Dr.Srikanth for Rupaka Tala in two speeds.
J.Balaji
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#107

Post by mridhangam » 10 Apr 2007, 22:34

Korvai as per Post No: 88 in two speeds in Rupaka Tala. Enjoy listening.


http://rapidshare.com/files/25298690/Ru ... _No-88.mp3

J.Balaji
0 x

Nick H
Posts: 8876
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 614
x 254

#108

Post by Nick H » 10 Apr 2007, 23:32

For completeness, here is the original korvai that I reverse-engineered in post 90...

Four avartanas, 1-kalai adi talam

Tha Kitathom
Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha , , , Dhi , , , Gi , , , Na , , , Thom , , ,

Tha Kitathom
Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha , , Dhi , , Gi , , Na , , Thom , ,

Tha Kitathom
Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha Dhi Tha Kitathom
Tha , Dhi , Gi , Na , Thom ,

Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ,
Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ,
Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom Tha Dhi Gi Na Thom ||Tha
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#109

Post by mridhangam » 12 Apr 2007, 07:44

Dr.Srikanth Sir
Can the purvanga be patterned in other ways for Aditala korve?
I dont understand this question of yours in Post No:86. Kindly explain.

Also, kanakku-wise, the ones you have played will also fit rupaka tala. (8x3=24 avartas. Or variations thereof spanning a total of 24 Avartas) )Can they be used as such for rupaka tala?
Any korvai played in adi Tala can be used in Rupaka Tala as such. No problem at all and without any variations.

Dear other members

Can i proceed further assuming that you have no doubts upto this point. I am waiting for confirmation.

Thanks
J.Balaji
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#110

Post by mridhangam » 12 Apr 2007, 15:03

With reference to post no 92 i may add that there is another variety of korvai

Porutham Korvai. somebody pls translate. Means that which can be created so that the laya available in the song and the korvai played matches.

J.Balaji
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
x 1

#111

Post by drshrikaanth » 13 Apr 2007, 05:07

Balaji
Thanks for playin the rUpaka kOrve. It has come out very nice. Keeping the tALa is somewhat tricky when played in drutakAla.
mridhangam wrote:Dr.Srikanth Sir
Can the purvanga be patterned in other ways for Aditala korve?
I dont understand this question of yours in Post No:86. Kindly explain.
You have already answered I think- by saying there are man aasus. A follow on question is, does one have to know these aasus to be able to draw up a kOrve or is it fine to go ahead and do it even otherwise as long as the basic structure(of a triplet) is maintained. To explan further, the rUpaka tALa kOrve I wrote, I had no idea of aasu but just came up with it. Does it relate to some aasu?

BTW- the term aasu could be related to the word "hAsu" (haasu) in kannaDa which means warp (as in warp and weft or warp & woof) and also a pattern/format.
Any korvai played in adi Tala can be used in Rupaka Tala as such. No problem at all and without any variations.
Thanks for clarifying.
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
x 1

#112

Post by drshrikaanth » 13 Apr 2007, 05:13

mridhangam wrote:Porutham Korvai. somebody pls translate. Means that which can be created so that the laya available in the song and the korvai played matches.

J.Balaji
poruttam as I understand it, means playing according to the word pattern in the kRti sung such that it appears like the kRti is essentially being played on the mRdanga/percussive instrument. Using this pattern in the kOrve is poruttam kOrve, correct?

Now the question is, how can one do this without disrupting the basic triplet pattern of a kOrve. And may I request you to play or post an example of poruttam korvai so it is easier for all to understand or ask questions.
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#113

Post by mridhangam » 13 Apr 2007, 10:46

Dr.Srikanth ji

One is about the Aasu and another is about the Porutham.

Aasu is the basic pattern which is either already available thorough years of listening or playing by our masters. In these Aasus generally no change will be there it is taken as such and they are then made adaptable according to tala and situations. Mostly based on the Aasu the utharaanga is accommodated. Actually the utharaanga is adjusted according the Aasu pattern arrived or derived or created. Utharaanga is just the left over after Poorvaanga. That is how generally and easily a korvai can be easily done.

Coming to the Porutham Korvai i have an excellent example taken out of a famous kriti "Manavyalakim". I will give you the Aasu with Korvai here and shall upload the audio later.

The Aasu is the first line manavyalakim which is split in laya terms as "tha , Dhim , thom , tha , Dheem.

Actually 5 in madyama kaala.

This is how an Aasu is arrived at for a porutham korvai.
Assume the singer sings neraval and swara in Manavyala kim and the mridangist is asked to play a tani the same Manavyalkim's rhythmic Aasu can be taken up and conjured up into a nice korvai as given below. Moreover the korvai can be taken from the samam and then brought to the Anaagatha Eduppu of 1 1/2 beat after Samam from where the song starts. The korvai goes thus :

Poorvaanga Aasu
=============
Tha , Dhim , thom , tha , Dhim + (4 Kaarvai in 3rd Speed ie., One beat duration kaarvai)
Tha , Dhim , thom , tha , Dhim + 4 Kaarvai
Tha , Dhim , thom , tha , Dhim + 4 Kaarvai

This is for a total count of 10 1/2 beats or 42 subunits (ie 3 * 10 + 3 * 4 Kaarvai = 42)

Utharaanga
=========

Tha Di Gi Na Thom
Tha Di Gi Na Thom
Tha Di Gi Na Thom (1 Kaarvai)

Tha Di , Gi Na thom
Tha Di , Gi Na thom
Tha Di , Gi Na thom (1 Kaarvai)

Tha , Di , Gi Na Thom
Tha , Di , Gi Na Thom
Tha , Di , Gi Na Thom (tha)

This is the korvai the Utharaanga is for 56 a multiple of 7 hence the above pattern which is usually played for a Misra Koraippu also.

This Korvai is for a total of 98 Subunits or 3 Avartanas and 2 sub units per cycle (1 /2 Beat ). Or total 24 1/2 Beats.
Played Three times you will reach the Manavyalakim Starting point as per progressive shift from one place to the other. Finally when you reach the Manavyalakim Point you can visualise that the Sollu Tha Deem Thom tha Deem will coincide with the Kriti Format thus making it a great Porutham Korvai.

This Korvai is entirely my creation from the Rhythmic Aasu provided by Saint Thyagaraja through that kriti.

More with audio later.

J.Balaji
0 x

Nick H
Posts: 8876
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 614
x 254

#114

Post by Nick H » 13 Apr 2007, 10:48

man aasus

---Oh dear, I must have not been paying attention somewhere. What does this mean?
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#115

Post by mridhangam » 13 Apr 2007, 12:36

Member Nick H

Please refer to earlier posts in this thread where i have mentioned what an Aasu is. Dont know which language it has been taken from. May be from Kannada as Dr.Srikanth has pointed out in his post above or from some other language. Certainly this word doesnt look like a tamil word and anyway i m not able to comment any further on this due to my lack of knowledge. Suffice now that the AASU IS NOTHING BUT THE BASIC STRUCTURE OF A KORVAI BASED ON WHICH THE MAIN KORVAI'S POORVAANGA IS DERIVED OR ARRIVED AT. whatever rhythmic pattern we are able to arrive at that which is acceptable within the logical parameters of poorvanga can be termed as an AASU. As i have mentioned time and again earlier these AASU's are mostly available through the playing of our masters and also have been evolved over a time. in simple terms AASU can be described as the BASIC IDEA FOR A KORVAI.

Am I clear ?

J.Balaji
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
x 1

#116

Post by drshrikaanth » 13 Apr 2007, 15:57

Balaji
How about this poruttam korve for the same kRti- manaviyAlaginca

purvanga (starts from the edupu of the krti)
Ta , di , thom , , , ta , dim + 4 karve in madhyama kAla covering 1 beat )|
Ta , di , thom , , , ta , dim + 4 karve
Ta , di , thom , , , ta , dim + 4 karve

Total count of 12 beats or 48 subunits (3x12 + 3x4 karve= 48)
-----

uttaranga
Ta di , ginathom + 4 karve in madhyama kala covering 1 beat |
tadi , ginathom tadi,ginathom + 4 karve in madhyama kala covering 1 beat |
tadi , ginathom tadi , gina thom tadi , ginathom |

(16+28+36)
----
The whole kOrve spans 4*3= 12 Avartas.
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#117

Post by mridhangam » 13 Apr 2007, 16:22

This cannot be termed as porutham since it doesnt coincide with the inherent rhythm of the phrase Manavyalakim. The Phrase Manavyalakim takes only 5 units in madyamakala ... and hence the poorvanga has to be five only in order to qualify itself for porutham. You can take the above as a normal poorvanga uthaaraanga korvai and not as a porutham korvai. For a Korvai to qualify for a Porutham it must have the first Phrase of the Song's inherent rhythm as a Sollukattu for the Korvai. Moreover I am not clear about the Tattakaara of your Utharaanga where you have mentioned 16 and what i understand fm there is only 6 + 4 and 2 *6 + 4 for the second and 3 * 6 for the third. Will you please clarify sir ? There is another variety of Porutham also which i shall deal with later wherein you can have the First Phrase of the song's inherent rhythm as the Shashabda Kaarvai (Generally Kaarvais are Nishabdha by Shashabda Kaarvai i mean here that we can play the Kaarvai as a sollukattu, and incidentally this Shashada Kaarvai is nothing but representation of Song's first line) for the Utharaanga in the first and second times. After the third time you play the utharaanga if you play the inherent rhythm then it becomes the song's representation in sollukkattu and when the singer takes the song after the third time it creates a great impact.

I shall give audio examples for the same kriti soon.

Am I Clear ?

J.Balaji
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
x 1

#118

Post by drshrikaanth » 13 Apr 2007, 16:28

mridhangam wrote:This cannot be termed as porutham since it doesnt coincide with the inherent rhythm of the phrase Manavyalakim. The Phrase Manavyalakim takes only 5 units in madyamakala ... and hence the poorvanga has to be five only in order to qualify itself for porutham.
J.Balaji
There are only 5 sollus in the purvanga I gave. I dont know if I represented it correctly. But I will try. The pallavi of the song goes like this

;, ma na vyA la gin
3 1 1 2 1 3
;, ta di tom ta dim

The lengths of each sollu is exactly the same as in the pallavi part. Is that not poruttam?
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
x 1

#119

Post by drshrikaanth » 13 Apr 2007, 16:36

mridhangam wrote:Moreover I am not clear about the Tattakaara of your Utharaanga where you have mentioned 16 and what i understand fm there is only 6 + 4 and 2 *6 + 4 for the second and 3 * 6 for the third. Will you please clarify sir ? J.Balaji
Again, I may not have written correctly. Im trying to follow your scheme which I have not been able to understand completely.

| , ta | din , | gi Na ||
thom , | , ta | din , | gi na | tom- ta | din , | gi Na | tom , |
, ta | din , | gi na | tom- ta | din , | gi Na | tom- ta | din , |
gi Na | tom- manavyAlagin---
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#120

Post by mridhangam » 13 Apr 2007, 16:38

in your post you have given as 12 and not as 5 (in madyama kaala) or 10 (in durita kaala). You have mentioned 12 (3 * 12 + 3 *4 ). there is no twelve from the place you start the Manavyala. The kim falls on samam hence that has to be the Kaarvai starting point for us .. To be perfect the Arudi Point till which the phrase comes only should be taken. Until the arudi point from the song's eduppu it is 5 in madyama kaala .. and that madyama kaala representation of 5 should coincide rhythmically with the kriti's format. After arriving at the Porutham Aasu the Korvai can be taken from any place and has to come to the Eduppu point after three rounds. That is all to it. Cant take the liberty of playing the 5 in different ways as it loses its quality to be called a porutham.

J.Balaji
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
x 1

#121

Post by drshrikaanth » 13 Apr 2007, 16:41

Balaji
Ignore the numbers in the first post and please look at my graphic representation alongside the pallavi. The dhim with karve falls exactly on the arudi of the pallavi only. That way it maintains the word flow of pallavi. Putting the dim before sama does not give the word flow of the pallavi. And the end falls on the edupu only.
0 x

mridhangam
Posts: 972
Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
x 3
x 13

#122

Post by mridhangam » 13 Apr 2007, 16:51

Got the Poorvaanga correct sir. Pls give the utharaanga in a manner that i can understand. Not clear about the notation in post no: 119. what is the duration of Poorvanga with reference to Manvyalkim ? and also do you start the korvai at samam or eduppu point itself. In my korvai that which i hv given contains the sollukkattu for manavyala (kim) which starts from samam and comes to the Eduppu since such type of korvais create a sense of expectation and mystery.

Thank you sir for your active participation.
J.Balaji
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
x 1

#123

Post by drshrikaanth » 13 Apr 2007, 16:56

korve starts in edupu, not samam. Duration of purvanga is 3 times that of "manavyalagin" i.e 12 beats. Uttaranga starts on the second half of second beat of druta. I have given the breakup in post 119- to each tala beat/unit.
0 x

drshrikaanth
Posts: 4066
Joined: 26 Mar 2005, 17:01
x 1

#124

Post by drshrikaanth » 13 Apr 2007, 18:44

0 x

Nick H
Posts: 8876
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
x 614
x 254

#125

Post by Nick H » 13 Apr 2007, 19:26

Brain cells dim, but there's a BMK varnam where the pattern of the final swara merges perfectly into the final charnum.

Not sure if this swara pattern even qualifies as a korvai, and I don't have it to hand.

I have heard thiermanams where, instead of the three lines coming at the end to the start of the line, the third part of the thiermanam is the exact rhythm of the next song line.
0 x

Post Reply