Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Tālam & Layam related topics
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Ranganator
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#176 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator » 01 Jan 2017, 21:17

Namaskaram to all. I am a new entrant to this forum. I learned mridangam for three years and have covered the basics of adi, Rupali and Misra chaps talas in the process. Sri Mannarkoil Balaji's posts have been very helpful in my understanding of korvais.
This was the korvai I was taught in adi talam:
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
Each round of this korvai lasts for two avarthanams. Could someone please explain the classification of this into poorvanga, madhyanga and Uttaranga and the mathematics of the same?
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Ranganator
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#177 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator » 01 Jan 2017, 21:18

Sorry, that was a typo. Rupaka not Rupali.
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mridhangam
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#178 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 11 Mar 2017, 08:28

Sir

The Korvai mentioned by you does not fall under "Lakshana" korvais discussed here. That one comes under the category of "lakshya korvais" and hence it is not possible to split the purvanga and utharanga.

Probably thaki ta thom tha dhi gi na thom, tha dhi gina thom , tha dhi gi na thom could be taken as a utharanga and the preceding portion could be taken as a purvanga.

J Balaji
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vasanthakokilam
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#179 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by vasanthakokilam » 12 Mar 2017, 06:48

The resurrection of this thread prompted me to find the mp3 files that Sri. Balaji provided and uploaded them to Google Drive.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

The file name has the number of the post where that Korvai snippet was transcribed. Unfortunately the post numbers are not displayed. When I have time, I will provide the mapping of files to posts and even better place the link to individual mp3 in the respective posts. Feel free to beat me to it if you have the time, motivation and energy ( I can edit the posts easily if I have the mapping of mp3s to posts )
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Ranganator
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#180 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator » 22 Mar 2017, 13:11

Thanks sir. But what is the difference between Lakshana korvais and lakshya korvais?
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shankarank
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#181 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 29 May 2017, 09:23

Ranganator wrote:
01 Jan 2017, 21:17
Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
if "Tha ki ta thom" starts at 1-1/2 - are the last three "Tha thi gi na thom" in tiSram?
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Ranganator
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#182 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator » 29 May 2017, 21:29

'Tha ki ta thom' ends with the laghu of the second avarthanam. 'Tha thi gi na thom' x 3 is basically 16=1+3*5.
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Rohith
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#183 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Rohith » 15 Apr 2018, 16:03

What about samam to idam korvais especially for idam like 1/4 for rupakam(2 thalli)
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc

Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum
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mridhangam
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#184 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 10 Aug 2018, 09:26

Rohith wrote:
15 Apr 2018, 16:03
What about samam to idam korvais especially for idam like 1/4 for rupakam(2 thalli)
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc

Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum
There is an idea for this ...if you make a korvai for 70 matras or 17-1/2 aksharas (matras are taken as 4 units per beat and aksharas are taken as one beat count) and render first two times in Khanda gati and then render it in catusram the korvai you make will come from samam to 2/12 place.

Mannarkoil Balaji
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mridhangam
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#185 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 10 Aug 2018, 09:43

Ranganator wrote:
22 Mar 2017, 13:11
Thanks sir. But what is the difference between Lakshana korvais and lakshya korvais?
Lakshana Korvais mean that the structure of purvanga and utharanga are mathematically correct and follow a logical order. For example 5(4) 5(4) 5(4) as a definite purvanga and 7(8)7(8)7 as a definite utharanga follows a mathematically correct order and hence could be a lakshana korvai.

Lakshya means aesthetically and artistically brilliant but mathematically not following any order.
8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...

This is a practical definition. do not quote this in any books or citations.

Mannarkoil Balaji
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kannangn
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#186 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by kannangn » 02 Nov 2018, 18:48

I have recently joined this forum.
Being a Mridangam student & artist , this particular thread has initially attracted me to this forum.
Hats off to Sri Balaji for his outstanding service to this community. For me ,it has served like a manual for
my preparation for a long awaited re-entry to performing for concerts , after several years of lay back.

This forum , rasikas.org portal are truly inspiring!!!

Hope , one day I will be able to return something substantially to this community.
Till then I do happily sit back and enjoy the brilliance of masters like Sri Balaji.

Thanks & Regards

Kannan Govindan
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shankarank
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#187 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 04 Nov 2018, 22:32

mridhangam wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 09:43
8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...
But from a meta-physical angle, this is not a violation of Math, as the tinkering is done in silence ( pun intended ;) ). Tinkering is possible only because there is a definite Math in there to begin with. It is to be taken as transcending grammar to attain a lakshya and not deliberately protesting against the grammatical order , as leftists would have it :D . The former is truly an Indic perspective!

The 3 is the all familar "taangu" I gather or if you are shifting to a triSra naDai - "tongu" !

And would you be kind enough to share the pazhani lakshya kORvai , something I have heard , but forgot what it is.
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shankarank
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#188 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 04 Nov 2018, 23:29

Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:

7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5

where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.

13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.

The reckoning of the last kArvai as (3) is done to get around the prime divisibility issue arising from 33 & 31 - where 31 does not afford the 30 & 1 division for any correct execution of a pattern thrice. Mathematically correct uttaranga will require a 31 = 27 +4 -> 9(2)9(2)9. But why give up an opportunity for the nearest divisible multiple of 3 - i.e. 30, if it can be handled with an artistic sleight of hand!?

So Math is somewhat very much in play! :geek: 8-)
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Christian Kenit Ram
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#189 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 11 Nov 2018, 03:17

I have some doubts about constructing permutations in a specific Korvai .
The normal way would of course be to repeat it 3 times without any change , but I have heard the technique that involves rendering the korvai differently for each of the 3 rounds . ( I have heard it for longer , more complicated korvais , but not for the simple , short ones -- hence my question )

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - - ta - din | - gi na tom ta - | din - gi na tom ta | - din - gi na tom || ( Tishra Gati for the 2nd half cycle - 24 instead of 16 matras )

The 2nd round is actually the original famous korvai , whereas I have tried to do my own permutations for the 1st and 3rd rounds :

In the 1st round I have used 1 kaarvai instead of 2 for the purvanga , between the phrases . While calculating for the uttaranga I came upon the formula 3 x tadin-ginatom with 1 kaarvai in between the phrases ( 18 + 2 = 20 ) . I don´t remember having heard it before in Adi Talam and don´t know if it´s usual or if it sounds strange ...

In the 3rd round I have used 3 kaarvais instead of 2 for the purvanga .
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available , so I decided to go into tishra Gati , because I don´t know a correct way of fitting 3 Tadiginatoms into 14 aksharas in chatushra Gati . ( Manjunath BC and Somashekar Jois sometimes use change of gati in Korvais . They are among the people that have sparked this curiosity in me ) . I don´t know if it´s correct to use the change of gati only for 2nd half of the 3rd round and if doing tadiginatoms starting 2 matras after the 5th akshara is acceptable in Adi Talam .

Thanks in advance .
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shankarank
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#190 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 12 Nov 2018, 06:09

If uttaranga is modified as :

takadhimi-tom,,(7)ta-takadhimitom,(7)kiTa-takadhimi(6) - 20

tadhimi-tom,,(6)takadhimitom,(6)ta-takadhimi(5) - 17

dhimi-tom,,(5)tadhimi-tom,(5)takadhimi(4) - 14

And doing it in reverse order may have better effect in this case.


that might pass for a similarity in reduction - preserving the takadhimi in all 3 in some form - giving a 3 to add to pURvAnga everytime.

Otherwise what you suggested - I don't know if it passes for convention, but that is the tongifying in mid air as you have one kARvai preceding a silent trISra conversion. You do have one kriya in the second 7 anchoring on a beat i.e dhin - might help grab the tALAM correctly.

You might just reduce the last kArvai to 3 from 4 and do a tadhiginatom(5) thrice as well!
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Christian Kenit Ram
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#191 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 20 Nov 2018, 05:44

^

Thanks a lot for the detailed reply , Shankarank !
You might just reduce the last kArvai to 3 from 4 and do a tadhiginatom(5) thrice as well!
I also thought about that ( if we speak about the same procedure ), but then the kArvais will not remain equal : Between the first 2 palas and the 2nd and 3rd palas of the purvanga I have 3 kArvais , but between purvanga and uttaranga there are 2 kArvais . I don´t know if that would be correct , or maybe it could pass as an aesthetic ( lakshya ) Korvai ...?

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - ta di gi | na tom ta di | gi na tom ta | di gi na tom ||
dhimi-tom,,(5)tadhimi-tom,(5)takadhimi(4) - 14
For the remaing 18 matras of the uttaranga I would then use : tadin - ginatom - ( 6 ) x 3 .
tadhimi-tom,,(6)takadhimitom,(6)ta-takadhimi(5) - 17
For the remaing 15 matras of the uttaranga I would then use : tadiginatom - ( 5 ) x 3 .
takadhimi-tom,,(7)ta-takadhimitom,(7)kiTa-takadhimi(6) - 20
Here it gets tricky because I only have 12 aksharas left . So I would get into tishra gati and do : tadin - ginatom - ( 6 ) x 3 . ( 12 aksharas in chatushra transposed into 18 aksharas in tishra )


PS : Correction from my previous post ( unfortunately can not edit anymore ):
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available ,
I meant 14 matras .
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mridhangam
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#192 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 22 Nov 2018, 09:49

shankarank wrote:
04 Nov 2018, 22:32
mridhangam wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 09:43
8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...
But from a meta-physical angle, this is not a violation of Math, as the tinkering is done in silence ( pun intended ;) ). Tinkering is possible only because there is a definite Math in there to begin with. It is to be taken as transcending grammar to attain a lakshya and not deliberately protesting against the grammatical order , as leftists would have it :D . The former is truly an Indic perspective!

The 3 is the all familar "taangu" I gather or if you are shifting to a triSra naDai - "tongu" !

And would you be kind enough to share the pazhani lakshya kORvai , something I have heard , but forgot what it is.
Lakshya korvai from Pazhani school :

(P)tha . dhi . thajum- dhi. thajum- thajum- jum-(U)tdgntom-tdgntom-tdgntom//
The order is 7,5,3,2 and then 15.

Mannarkoil J Balaji
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mridhangam
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#193 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 22 Nov 2018, 10:11

shankarank wrote:
04 Nov 2018, 23:29
Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:

7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5

where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.

13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.

The reckoning of the last kArvai as (3) is done to get around the prime divisibility issue arising from 33 & 31 - where 31 does not afford the 30 & 1 division for any correct execution of a pattern thrice. Mathematically correct uttaranga will require a 31 = 27 +4 -> 9(2)9(2)9. But why give up an opportunity for the nearest divisible multiple of 3 - i.e. 30, if it can be handled with an artistic sleight of hand!?

So Math is somewhat very much in play! :geek: 8-)
Actually this korvai could have been stopped with 7-4-2;5-4-2;3-4-2 and utaranga as 31 ...
Why add that 1 at the end ? Is there a logic ?

Yesterday i was speaking with a friend of mine where a reducing pattern was going as 7(2)(6(2)5(2)4(2)3(2)2(2)1 and 3 as a bridge between P and U and the Utaranga as 3 * 7

Purvanga

tkdm tkt tha .
tkt tkt tha .
tk tkt tha .
tkdm tha .
tkt tha .
tk tha .
ta (thaangu)

Utaranga
t.d.gntom
t.d.gntom
t.d.gntom//

I wouldnt personally make such korvais. We call this adjustment. This adjustment can be done if there is no utarangam possible after purvanga logic. since we still can do 22 instead of 21 this korvai cant be accepted according to me.

There is another korvai of the same sort given by a doyen which goes like this and defies a logical pattern:

8 (as dhi . than kt tktrkttk)

8 - 3 3 2
2-8 -3 3 2
4 - 8 - Sort of purvanga end without the logic getting followed
3 3 3
3 3 3
3 3 3
as a middle piece
and then some utaranga idea follows.

We call this Ottu piece

We try to make it like this
8-3 3 3
2-8 -3-3-3; 3 3 3;
4-8- 3 3 3; 3 3 3; 3 3 3; (Making the total to 21 aksharas or 21 * 4)

We can make utaranga accordingly.

Of course i am very well aware that music is beyond science or mere maths, yet a structure makes it crucial for giving it further developments. if one wants to reduce the 3 3 3 to 2 2 3 for the next cycle and 1 1 3, for the 3rd cycle this logical build up gives scope while the earlier one doesnt offer further scope, making it stand-alone korvai which needs to be mugged up. From my experience i can tell that logic gives more scope for on the spot development and with one "aasu" or a foundation a number of varieties could be made.

Mannarkoil J Balaji
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mridhangam
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#194 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 22 Nov 2018, 10:16

Christian Kenit Ram wrote:
11 Nov 2018, 03:17
I have some doubts about constructing permutations in a specific Korvai .
The normal way would of course be to repeat it 3 times without any change , but I have heard the technique that involves rendering the korvai differently for each of the 3 rounds . ( I have heard it for longer , more complicated korvais , but not for the simple , short ones -- hence my question )

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - - ta - din | - gi na tom ta - | din - gi na tom ta | - din - gi na tom || ( Tishra Gati for the 2nd half cycle - 24 instead of 16 matras )

The 2nd round is actually the original famous korvai , whereas I have tried to do my own permutations for the 1st and 3rd rounds :

In the 1st round I have used 1 kaarvai instead of 2 for the purvanga , between the phrases . While calculating for the uttaranga I came upon the formula 3 x tadin-ginatom with 1 kaarvai in between the phrases ( 18 + 2 = 20 ) . I don´t remember having heard it before in Adi Talam and don´t know if it´s usual or if it sounds strange ...

In the 3rd round I have used 3 kaarvais instead of 2 for the purvanga .
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available , so I decided to go into tishra Gati , because I don´t know a correct way of fitting 3 Tadiginatoms into 14 aksharas in chatushra Gati . ( Manjunath BC and Somashekar Jois sometimes use change of gati in Korvais . They are among the people that have sparked this curiosity in me ) . I don´t know if it´s correct to use the change of gati only for 2nd half of the 3rd round and if doing tadiginatoms starting 2 matras after the 5th akshara is acceptable in Adi Talam .

Thanks in advance .

I have gone through your post and i have this observation.

Mixing of Gati in korvai is absolutely allowed but i wish the same logic is followed while doing Gati Bheda. (In this example 6(1)6(1)6 as first utaranga and 5(1)5(1)5 as second utaranga comes ... so doing 3 * 7 in tisra gati looks odd.

Instead 4(1)4(1)4 could be done.

To make it interesting since smaller numbers for utaranga wont sound nice i suggest you reverse the entire korvai and render. it would be nice.

Mannarkoil Balaji
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shankarank
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#195 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 24 Nov 2018, 01:46

mridhangam wrote:
22 Nov 2018, 10:11
shankarank wrote:
04 Nov 2018, 23:29
Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:

7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5

where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.

13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.
Actually this korvai could have been stopped with 7-4-2;5-4-2;3-4-2 and utaranga as 31 ...
Why add that 1 at the end ? Is there a logic ?
Yes my intent was to project the 7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2 as the pURvAngam. But the uttarAngam 31 - for some reason people are fascinated by the tadhiginatom pattern. Even though it can be derived as 9(2)9(2)9 , still the 30 is tempting. as 3 *10. The remaining 1 can be asborbed in the last (2) to make (3) as thaangu is what I meant.
mridhangam wrote:
22 Nov 2018, 10:11
8 (as dhi . than kt tktrkttk)
Based on that 8 pattern, here is another one being executed by SrI T.V.G and SrI Suresh assisting him with konnakOl.

https://youtu.be/8y-91PkkeK4?t=113

So for a total of 1-1/2 AvaRta : 64 + 32 = 96. They split it as 48+48 - but then they are fascinated by the presence of 45 , so it becomes 48 +1 for pURvangA, with the last thom (2) becoming thaangu ( 3). 47 is then handled as 45 + 2 -> 15(1)15(1)15.

But it is still possible to handle 48 itself as for example 42 + 6 -> (7)(7)(3)(7)(7)(3)(7)7) -> 6*7 + 6 = 48. In this case the opportunity to use different expression for the two consecutive 7(s) is also there, including vallinam (hard) and mellinam (soft) combo, like: ta-ta-ta-,-tAkiTathom, dhin-dhin-dhin-,-tAkiTathom - thaangu.

So another lakshana - lakshya pair I suppose!
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#196 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 24 Nov 2018, 10:01

I should separately record my view here as to the musical value of thaangu vs actually taking the kORvai on the kriya-samam , after the first 48 in the latest example of the above post.

The thaangu crosses ( or goes over!) the saSabhda kriya and becomes quintessentially Carnatic - as it creates a subtling of a kriya !! Hence it is musically superior to any other form where the uttarAnga hugs the kriya.

kriyAlingana-dOSha-nivAriNi!! A lakshya of karNATaka sangIta is attained!
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#197 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 25 Nov 2018, 00:17

Thank you very much for having taken your time to respond , Balaji Sir !
Instead 4(1)4(1)4 could be done.
So simple and logical ! I think I did not have this idea , because I rarely hear Korvai Uttarangams where the phrases have less than 4 syllables .
Now I am thinking about which Sollus to use for this phrase ... Diginatom would be my first choice , not sure if correct or the most appropriate :

|| - - di gi | na tom - di | gi na tom - | di gi na tom ||

Would there be other possibilities and would they be compatible with the Tadiginatoms used in the previous rounds ? :
Taginatom , Tadinatom

Takitatom is used very often in other contexts , but I am not sure if it would be compatible with the previous Tadiginatoms .
To make it interesting since smaller numbers for utaranga wont sound nice i suggest you reverse the entire korvai and render. it would be nice.
Do you mean it should begin with Tadim ( 3 ) Takadim ( 3 ) ... , then Tadim ( 2 ) Takadim ( 2 ) ... and finally Tadim ( 1 ) Takadim ( 1 ) etc ?
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#198 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam » 27 Nov 2018, 13:37

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - t k | d n - t | k d n -| t k d n ||

|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||

This is how you can reverse the entire korvai and render it.

Mannarkoil Balaji
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shankarank
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#199 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 28 Nov 2018, 07:27

Makes sense! The 4(1) thrice with ta-ka-di-na, will sound like an abrupt stop because of lack of extended soft consonants like in tadiginatom-tAM, so better to end with a longer phrased uttarangam. But takadina, works itself out in a continuation of another round.
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#200 Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank » 01 Dec 2018, 10:32

@Christian Kenit Ram If you are not fixated on maintaining the same kAlam and mixup some higher kAla syllables:

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - tAkiTA(2) | thom - tatA | kiTA(1) thom - ta| thi tAkiTA(2) thom ||

3(1) 4(1)5 = 14


|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|tAkiTA(2) thom - | ta thi tAkiTA(2) | thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||

4(1)5(1)6 = 17

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta di tAkiTA(2) |
| thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom |- ta - di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||

5(1)6(1)7 = 20

Will have a punch as well!
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