Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Tālam & Layam related topics
Ranganator
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Joined: 30 Dec 2016, 20:38

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator »

Namaskaram to all. I am a new entrant to this forum. I learned mridangam for three years and have covered the basics of adi, Rupali and Misra chaps talas in the process. Sri Mannarkoil Balaji's posts have been very helpful in my understanding of korvais.
This was the korvai I was taught in adi talam:
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thalanguthom
Thith tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Thakathom tham kitathakatharikitathaka thom
Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
Each round of this korvai lasts for two avarthanams. Could someone please explain the classification of this into poorvanga, madhyanga and Uttaranga and the mathematics of the same?

Ranganator
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Joined: 30 Dec 2016, 20:38

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator »

Sorry, that was a typo. Rupaka not Rupali.

mridhangam
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam »

Sir

The Korvai mentioned by you does not fall under "Lakshana" korvais discussed here. That one comes under the category of "lakshya korvais" and hence it is not possible to split the purvanga and utharanga.

Probably thaki ta thom tha dhi gi na thom, tha dhi gina thom , tha dhi gi na thom could be taken as a utharanga and the preceding portion could be taken as a purvanga.

J Balaji

vasanthakokilam
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by vasanthakokilam »

The resurrection of this thread prompted me to find the mp3 files that Sri. Balaji provided and uploaded them to Google Drive.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

The file name has the number of the post where that Korvai snippet was transcribed. Unfortunately the post numbers are not displayed. When I have time, I will provide the mapping of files to posts and even better place the link to individual mp3 in the respective posts. Feel free to beat me to it if you have the time, motivation and energy ( I can edit the posts easily if I have the mapping of mp3s to posts )

Ranganator
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Joined: 30 Dec 2016, 20:38

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator »

Thanks sir. But what is the difference between Lakshana korvais and lakshya korvais?

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

Ranganator wrote: 01 Jan 2017, 21:17 Tha ki ta thom (1 1/2 avarthanam)
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom
Tha thi gi na thom||thith
if "Tha ki ta thom" starts at 1-1/2 - are the last three "Tha thi gi na thom" in tiSram?

Ranganator
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Joined: 30 Dec 2016, 20:38

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Ranganator »

'Tha ki ta thom' ends with the laghu of the second avarthanam. 'Tha thi gi na thom' x 3 is basically 16=1+3*5.

Rohith
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Joined: 25 Mar 2018, 09:35

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Rohith »

What about samam to idam korvais especially for idam like 1/4 for rupakam(2 thalli)
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc

Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum

mridhangam
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam »

Rohith wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 16:03 What about samam to idam korvais especially for idam like 1/4 for rupakam(2 thalli)
Also mishra korvais and korvais in thisram,khandam etc
And korvais with combination of melkalam tharam etc

Ps: i am huge fan of mannarkoil balaji sir and this is my first post in rasikas forum
There is an idea for this ...if you make a korvai for 70 matras or 17-1/2 aksharas (matras are taken as 4 units per beat and aksharas are taken as one beat count) and render first two times in Khanda gati and then render it in catusram the korvai you make will come from samam to 2/12 place.

Mannarkoil Balaji

mridhangam
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam »

Ranganator wrote: 22 Mar 2017, 13:11 Thanks sir. But what is the difference between Lakshana korvais and lakshya korvais?
Lakshana Korvais mean that the structure of purvanga and utharanga are mathematically correct and follow a logical order. For example 5(4) 5(4) 5(4) as a definite purvanga and 7(8)7(8)7 as a definite utharanga follows a mathematically correct order and hence could be a lakshana korvai.

Lakshya means aesthetically and artistically brilliant but mathematically not following any order.
8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...

This is a practical definition. do not quote this in any books or citations.

Mannarkoil Balaji

kannangn
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Joined: 15 Sep 2018, 20:29

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by kannangn »

I have recently joined this forum.
Being a Mridangam student & artist , this particular thread has initially attracted me to this forum.
Hats off to Sri Balaji for his outstanding service to this community. For me ,it has served like a manual for
my preparation for a long awaited re-entry to performing for concerts , after several years of lay back.

This forum , rasikas.org portal are truly inspiring!!!

Hope , one day I will be able to return something substantially to this community.
Till then I do happily sit back and enjoy the brilliance of masters like Sri Balaji.

Thanks & Regards

Kannan Govindan

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

mridhangam wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 09:43 8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...
But from a meta-physical angle, this is not a violation of Math, as the tinkering is done in silence ( pun intended ;) ). Tinkering is possible only because there is a definite Math in there to begin with. It is to be taken as transcending grammar to attain a lakshya and not deliberately protesting against the grammatical order , as leftists would have it :D . The former is truly an Indic perspective!

The 3 is the all familar "taangu" I gather or if you are shifting to a triSra naDai - "tongu" !

And would you be kind enough to share the pazhani lakshya kORvai , something I have heard , but forgot what it is.

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:

7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5

where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.

13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.

The reckoning of the last kArvai as (3) is done to get around the prime divisibility issue arising from 33 & 31 - where 31 does not afford the 30 & 1 division for any correct execution of a pattern thrice. Mathematically correct uttaranga will require a 31 = 27 +4 -> 9(2)9(2)9. But why give up an opportunity for the nearest divisible multiple of 3 - i.e. 30, if it can be handled with an artistic sleight of hand!?

So Math is somewhat very much in play! :geek: 8-)

Christian Kenit Ram
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Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

I have some doubts about constructing permutations in a specific Korvai .
The normal way would of course be to repeat it 3 times without any change , but I have heard the technique that involves rendering the korvai differently for each of the 3 rounds . ( I have heard it for longer , more complicated korvais , but not for the simple , short ones -- hence my question )

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - - ta - din | - gi na tom ta - | din - gi na tom ta | - din - gi na tom || ( Tishra Gati for the 2nd half cycle - 24 instead of 16 matras )

The 2nd round is actually the original famous korvai , whereas I have tried to do my own permutations for the 1st and 3rd rounds :

In the 1st round I have used 1 kaarvai instead of 2 for the purvanga , between the phrases . While calculating for the uttaranga I came upon the formula 3 x tadin-ginatom with 1 kaarvai in between the phrases ( 18 + 2 = 20 ) . I don´t remember having heard it before in Adi Talam and don´t know if it´s usual or if it sounds strange ...

In the 3rd round I have used 3 kaarvais instead of 2 for the purvanga .
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available , so I decided to go into tishra Gati , because I don´t know a correct way of fitting 3 Tadiginatoms into 14 aksharas in chatushra Gati . ( Manjunath BC and Somashekar Jois sometimes use change of gati in Korvais . They are among the people that have sparked this curiosity in me ) . I don´t know if it´s correct to use the change of gati only for 2nd half of the 3rd round and if doing tadiginatoms starting 2 matras after the 5th akshara is acceptable in Adi Talam .

Thanks in advance .

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

If uttaranga is modified as :

takadhimi-tom,,(7)ta-takadhimitom,(7)kiTa-takadhimi(6) - 20

tadhimi-tom,,(6)takadhimitom,(6)ta-takadhimi(5) - 17

dhimi-tom,,(5)tadhimi-tom,(5)takadhimi(4) - 14

And doing it in reverse order may have better effect in this case.


that might pass for a similarity in reduction - preserving the takadhimi in all 3 in some form - giving a 3 to add to pURvAnga everytime.

Otherwise what you suggested - I don't know if it passes for convention, but that is the tongifying in mid air as you have one kARvai preceding a silent trISra conversion. You do have one kriya in the second 7 anchoring on a beat i.e dhin - might help grab the tALAM correctly.

You might just reduce the last kArvai to 3 from 4 and do a tadhiginatom(5) thrice as well!

Christian Kenit Ram
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Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

^

Thanks a lot for the detailed reply , Shankarank !
You might just reduce the last kArvai to 3 from 4 and do a tadhiginatom(5) thrice as well!
I also thought about that ( if we speak about the same procedure ), but then the kArvais will not remain equal : Between the first 2 palas and the 2nd and 3rd palas of the purvanga I have 3 kArvais , but between purvanga and uttaranga there are 2 kArvais . I don´t know if that would be correct , or maybe it could pass as an aesthetic ( lakshya ) Korvai ...?

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - ta di gi | na tom ta di | gi na tom ta | di gi na tom ||
dhimi-tom,,(5)tadhimi-tom,(5)takadhimi(4) - 14
For the remaing 18 matras of the uttaranga I would then use : tadin - ginatom - ( 6 ) x 3 .
tadhimi-tom,,(6)takadhimitom,(6)ta-takadhimi(5) - 17
For the remaing 15 matras of the uttaranga I would then use : tadiginatom - ( 5 ) x 3 .
takadhimi-tom,,(7)ta-takadhimitom,(7)kiTa-takadhimi(6) - 20
Here it gets tricky because I only have 12 aksharas left . So I would get into tishra gati and do : tadin - ginatom - ( 6 ) x 3 . ( 12 aksharas in chatushra transposed into 18 aksharas in tishra )


PS : Correction from my previous post ( unfortunately can not edit anymore ):
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available ,
I meant 14 matras .

mridhangam
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam »

shankarank wrote: 04 Nov 2018, 22:32
mridhangam wrote: 10 Aug 2018, 09:43 8(4)8(4)8(3) as Purvanga 9(1)9(1)9 as utharanga ...if i write this in numbers anyone can identify that there is a mistake but while playing the 3 karvai at the end of Purvanga can hardly be perceived as a mistake in the flow ...
But from a meta-physical angle, this is not a violation of Math, as the tinkering is done in silence ( pun intended ;) ). Tinkering is possible only because there is a definite Math in there to begin with. It is to be taken as transcending grammar to attain a lakshya and not deliberately protesting against the grammatical order , as leftists would have it :D . The former is truly an Indic perspective!

The 3 is the all familar "taangu" I gather or if you are shifting to a triSra naDai - "tongu" !

And would you be kind enough to share the pazhani lakshya kORvai , something I have heard , but forgot what it is.
Lakshya korvai from Pazhani school :

(P)tha . dhi . thajum- dhi. thajum- thajum- jum-(U)tdgntom-tdgntom-tdgntom//
The order is 7,5,3,2 and then 15.

Mannarkoil J Balaji

mridhangam
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam »

shankarank wrote: 04 Nov 2018, 23:29 Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:

7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5

where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.

13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.

The reckoning of the last kArvai as (3) is done to get around the prime divisibility issue arising from 33 & 31 - where 31 does not afford the 30 & 1 division for any correct execution of a pattern thrice. Mathematically correct uttaranga will require a 31 = 27 +4 -> 9(2)9(2)9. But why give up an opportunity for the nearest divisible multiple of 3 - i.e. 30, if it can be handled with an artistic sleight of hand!?

So Math is somewhat very much in play! :geek: 8-)
Actually this korvai could have been stopped with 7-4-2;5-4-2;3-4-2 and utaranga as 31 ...
Why add that 1 at the end ? Is there a logic ?

Yesterday i was speaking with a friend of mine where a reducing pattern was going as 7(2)(6(2)5(2)4(2)3(2)2(2)1 and 3 as a bridge between P and U and the Utaranga as 3 * 7

Purvanga

tkdm tkt tha .
tkt tkt tha .
tk tkt tha .
tkdm tha .
tkt tha .
tk tha .
ta (thaangu)

Utaranga
t.d.gntom
t.d.gntom
t.d.gntom//

I wouldnt personally make such korvais. We call this adjustment. This adjustment can be done if there is no utarangam possible after purvanga logic. since we still can do 22 instead of 21 this korvai cant be accepted according to me.

There is another korvai of the same sort given by a doyen which goes like this and defies a logical pattern:

8 (as dhi . than kt tktrkttk)

8 - 3 3 2
2-8 -3 3 2
4 - 8 - Sort of purvanga end without the logic getting followed
3 3 3
3 3 3
3 3 3
as a middle piece
and then some utaranga idea follows.

We call this Ottu piece

We try to make it like this
8-3 3 3
2-8 -3-3-3; 3 3 3;
4-8- 3 3 3; 3 3 3; 3 3 3; (Making the total to 21 aksharas or 21 * 4)

We can make utaranga accordingly.

Of course i am very well aware that music is beyond science or mere maths, yet a structure makes it crucial for giving it further developments. if one wants to reduce the 3 3 3 to 2 2 3 for the next cycle and 1 1 3, for the 3rd cycle this logical build up gives scope while the earlier one doesnt offer further scope, making it stand-alone korvai which needs to be mugged up. From my experience i can tell that logic gives more scope for on the spot development and with one "aasu" or a foundation a number of varieties could be made.

Mannarkoil J Balaji

mridhangam
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam »

Christian Kenit Ram wrote: 11 Nov 2018, 03:17 I have some doubts about constructing permutations in a specific Korvai .
The normal way would of course be to repeat it 3 times without any change , but I have heard the technique that involves rendering the korvai differently for each of the 3 rounds . ( I have heard it for longer , more complicated korvais , but not for the simple , short ones -- hence my question )

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - - ta - din | - gi na tom ta - | din - gi na tom ta | - din - gi na tom || ( Tishra Gati for the 2nd half cycle - 24 instead of 16 matras )

The 2nd round is actually the original famous korvai , whereas I have tried to do my own permutations for the 1st and 3rd rounds :

In the 1st round I have used 1 kaarvai instead of 2 for the purvanga , between the phrases . While calculating for the uttaranga I came upon the formula 3 x tadin-ginatom with 1 kaarvai in between the phrases ( 18 + 2 = 20 ) . I don´t remember having heard it before in Adi Talam and don´t know if it´s usual or if it sounds strange ...

In the 3rd round I have used 3 kaarvais instead of 2 for the purvanga .
Calculating for the uttaranga I saw that I only had 14 aksharas available , so I decided to go into tishra Gati , because I don´t know a correct way of fitting 3 Tadiginatoms into 14 aksharas in chatushra Gati . ( Manjunath BC and Somashekar Jois sometimes use change of gati in Korvais . They are among the people that have sparked this curiosity in me ) . I don´t know if it´s correct to use the change of gati only for 2nd half of the 3rd round and if doing tadiginatoms starting 2 matras after the 5th akshara is acceptable in Adi Talam .

Thanks in advance .

I have gone through your post and i have this observation.

Mixing of Gati in korvai is absolutely allowed but i wish the same logic is followed while doing Gati Bheda. (In this example 6(1)6(1)6 as first utaranga and 5(1)5(1)5 as second utaranga comes ... so doing 3 * 7 in tisra gati looks odd.

Instead 4(1)4(1)4 could be done.

To make it interesting since smaller numbers for utaranga wont sound nice i suggest you reverse the entire korvai and render. it would be nice.

Mannarkoil Balaji

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

mridhangam wrote: 22 Nov 2018, 10:11
shankarank wrote: 04 Nov 2018, 23:29 Another example on those lines where there is a lakshya / lakshana pair would be in a total of 64:

7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2&1 (this is the taangu)- 5-5,5-5,5-5

where 7-4 is formed as ta,ti,tathom(7) - 4-2 as dhin,ta,thom. The pURvAnga has a reduction as ta,ti,tathom -> ti,tathom -> tathom in the three sections.

13 + 11 + 9 + 1 = 34 and uttarAnga is 30.
Actually this korvai could have been stopped with 7-4-2;5-4-2;3-4-2 and utaranga as 31 ...
Why add that 1 at the end ? Is there a logic ?
Yes my intent was to project the 7-4-2, 5-4-2, 3-4-2 as the pURvAngam. But the uttarAngam 31 - for some reason people are fascinated by the tadhiginatom pattern. Even though it can be derived as 9(2)9(2)9 , still the 30 is tempting. as 3 *10. The remaining 1 can be asborbed in the last (2) to make (3) as thaangu is what I meant.
mridhangam wrote: 22 Nov 2018, 10:11 8 (as dhi . than kt tktrkttk)
Based on that 8 pattern, here is another one being executed by SrI T.V.G and SrI Suresh assisting him with konnakOl.

https://youtu.be/8y-91PkkeK4?t=113

So for a total of 1-1/2 AvaRta : 64 + 32 = 96. They split it as 48+48 - but then they are fascinated by the presence of 45 , so it becomes 48 +1 for pURvangA, with the last thom (2) becoming thaangu ( 3). 47 is then handled as 45 + 2 -> 15(1)15(1)15.

But it is still possible to handle 48 itself as for example 42 + 6 -> (7)(7)(3)(7)(7)(3)(7)7) -> 6*7 + 6 = 48. In this case the opportunity to use different expression for the two consecutive 7(s) is also there, including vallinam (hard) and mellinam (soft) combo, like: ta-ta-ta-,-tAkiTathom, dhin-dhin-dhin-,-tAkiTathom - thaangu.

So another lakshana - lakshya pair I suppose!

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

I should separately record my view here as to the musical value of thaangu vs actually taking the kORvai on the kriya-samam , after the first 48 in the latest example of the above post.

The thaangu crosses ( or goes over!) the saSabhda kriya and becomes quintessentially Carnatic - as it creates a subtling of a kriya !! Hence it is musically superior to any other form where the uttarAnga hugs the kriya.

kriyAlingana-dOSha-nivAriNi!! A lakshya of karNATaka sangIta is attained!

Christian Kenit Ram
Posts: 78
Joined: 11 Oct 2016, 22:23

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

Thank you very much for having taken your time to respond , Balaji Sir !
Instead 4(1)4(1)4 could be done.
So simple and logical ! I think I did not have this idea , because I rarely hear Korvai Uttarangams where the phrases have less than 4 syllables .
Now I am thinking about which Sollus to use for this phrase ... Diginatom would be my first choice , not sure if correct or the most appropriate :

|| - - di gi | na tom - di | gi na tom - | di gi na tom ||

Would there be other possibilities and would they be compatible with the Tadiginatoms used in the previous rounds ? :
Taginatom , Tadinatom

Takitatom is used very often in other contexts , but I am not sure if it would be compatible with the previous Tadiginatoms .
To make it interesting since smaller numbers for utaranga wont sound nice i suggest you reverse the entire korvai and render. it would be nice.
Do you mean it should begin with Tadim ( 3 ) Takadim ( 3 ) ... , then Tadim ( 2 ) Takadim ( 2 ) ... and finally Tadim ( 1 ) Takadim ( 1 ) etc ?

mridhangam
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam »

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - t k | d n - t | k d n -| t k d n ||

|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|di gi na tom | - ta di gi | na tom - ta | di gi na tom ||

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta din - gi |
| na tom - ta | din - gi na | tom - ta din | - gi na tom ||

This is how you can reverse the entire korvai and render it.

Mannarkoil Balaji

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

Makes sense! The 4(1) thrice with ta-ka-di-na, will sound like an abrupt stop because of lack of extended soft consonants like in tadiginatom-tAM, so better to end with a longer phrased uttarangam. But takadina, works itself out in a continuation of another round.

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

@Christian Kenit Ram If you are not fixated on maintaining the same kAlam and mixup some higher kAla syllables:

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - tAkiTA(2) | thom - tatA | kiTA(1) thom - ta| thi tAkiTA(2) thom ||

3(1) 4(1)5 = 14


|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|tAkiTA(2) thom - | ta thi tAkiTA(2) | thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||

4(1)5(1)6 = 17

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta di tAkiTA(2) |
| thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom |- ta - di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||

5(1)6(1)7 = 20

Will have a punch as well!

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

@mridhangam

https://youtu.be/mzanBWsf6ko?t=1081

That kORvai in its current form: 24 + 25 + 15 = 64.

The 25 has two sections of khaNDam with kaRvais - 5*3 + 5*2 = 25.

I made another one for a total of 128.

where the first 24 remains.

The next one : 5*6 + 5*4 + 5*3 + 5*2 = 30+20+15+10 = 75. which leave 29. - i.e 24 + 75 + 29

29 can be handled 2 ways as is : 27+2 -> 9(1)9(1)9 OR 21+8 -> 7(4)7(4)7 .

But just by the feel of it , I could add 1 to 29 to do a 30. Where would that 1 come from?

Well the last 5*2 , borrow 1 from it - ta,di,gi,na,tom, - the last comma goes -> ta,di,gi,na,tom ( the kArvai removed) and immediately begin ta-ki-Ta-thom, ta-di-gi-na-tom (10) -> 3 times to get 3*10 = 30.

The much loved ta-di-gi-na-tom wins! :D

Well that is not the only deviation. A visiting vidvan with whom I happened to discuss it pointed out, that in the middle piece I left out a 5*5 - that will make it a 100 and I have to do something with one extra Avarta added for a remaining 4+64 = 68.

Or I will have to not do the 5*3 - just to make the reduction perfectly arithmetic 6->4->2 - so it is 60. I need to fill the remaining 44.

Now I will make a case for justifying this - you may still call it lakshya or altogether invalid.

5 *6, 5*4 an arithmetic reduction. 5*3, 5*2 is the geometric reduction of the first pair ( i.e. (6,4) -> (3,2) ). So it is a hybrid (arithmeto-geometric) reduction :mrgreen: :ugeek: .

Christian Kenit Ram
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

shankarank wrote: 01 Dec 2018, 10:32 @Christian Kenit Ram If you are not fixated on maintaining the same kAlam and mixup some higher kAla syllables:

|| ta dim - - | - ta ka dim | - - - ta | ki ta dim - |
| - - tAkiTA(2) | thom - tatA | kiTA(1) thom - ta| thi tAkiTA(2) thom ||

3(1) 4(1)5 = 14


|| ta dim - - | ta ka dim - | - ta ki ta | dim - - ta |
|tAkiTA(2) thom - | ta thi tAkiTA(2) | thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||

4(1)5(1)6 = 17

|| ta dim - ta | ka dim - ta | ki ta dim - | ta di tAkiTA(2) |
| thom - ta di | - tAkiTA(2) thom |- ta - di | - tAkiTA(2) thom||

5(1)6(1)7 = 20

Will have a punch as well!
Thanks a lot for the ideas , Shankarank !

The frame is very clear , however I have a doubt about whether you are staying in Chatushra Gati the whole time or also get into Tishra Gati for some phrases .
Ex : | - - tAkiTA(2) | --- could be played with kiTa in double-matra speed ( 32nd notes ) or Takita as a triplet ( in Tishra Gati - 3 syllables of equal duration ) - 3 matras instead of 2 .

I assume " ta| thi tAkiTA(2) thom || " is the normal variation for Tadiginatom , where kiTA stays in Chatushra Gati , while being played as 32nd notes .

shankarank
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

I used captilization in tA - meaning an elongated syllable which occupies 1 unit and kiTA occupies the other 1 unit where the 2 units is in your caturASra gati only.

Christian Kenit Ram
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

^

Ok thanks !
I understand your nomenclature now .

Christian Kenit Ram
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

Balaji Sir , while listening again to Part 3 of your lecture demonstration I heard this Korvai ( 28m22 ) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLGWJBGgiPk

ta - dim - tadim -
takadim - tadim -
ta - dim - tadim -

ta - dim - tadinginatom
ta --- di ---
ta - dim - tadinginatom
ta --- di ---
ta - dim - tadinginatom

Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )
Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )

Coincidentally , I have been looking for some days to do the inverse : A Korvai with the uttaranga having 21 matras , but I could not manage it as easy as with other numbers . Maybe it has to do with the fact that 43 ( for the purvanga ) being a prime number , makes it difficult to split this number in the usual 3 palas with the kArvais in between .
So your technique of splitting 43 in 3x9 + 2x8 for the uttaranga in your Korvai gave me the idea for using it in my own " Korvai " ( ? or Composition or Abhiprayam ...) for the purvanga :

ta - tum - takitadim -
dintakadin takadina
ta - tum - takitadim -
dintakadin takadina
ta - tum - takitadim -

ta - din - ginatom
ta - din - ginatom
ta - din - ginatom

Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )

I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the uttaranga has the structure ABABA .

Christian Kenit Ram
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

Christian Kenit Ram wrote: 04 Dec 2018, 08:56
...

ta - din - ginatom
ta - din - ginatom
ta - din - ginatom

Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )

I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the uttaranga has the structure ABABA .
Sorry , can not edit anymore .

Correction :

Purvanga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Uttaranga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )

I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the purvanga has the structure ABABA .

shankarank
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote: 03 Dec 2018, 12:00 The next one : 5*6 + 5*4 + 5*3 + 5*2 = 30+20+15+10 = 75. which leave 29. - i.e 24 + 75 + 29
...................
Well the last 5*2 , borrow 1 from it - ta,di,gi,na,tom, - the last comma goes -> ta,di,gi,na,tom ( the kArvai removed) ....
I figured , the last 10 of 75, if I am to make it a 9 instead of 10, to get a 30 remainder, I might as well combine the 10 with 29 and do something continuous from there on:

ta,di,gi,na,tom-thangu-thangu ta,di,gi,na,tom-thangu-thangu ta,di,gi,na,tom |

9(6)9(6)9 = 39 = 10+29

Alternately :

ta,di,gi,na,tom-[ta,di,gi,na,tom] ta,di,gi,na,tom-[ta,di,gi,na,tom]ta,di,gi,na,tom |

where [ta,di,gi,na,tom] in square brackets is executed in mEl (higher) kAla triSram 6*(3/2) = 9

That is deceptively aesthetic and grammatically correct, instead of aesthetically deceptive and grammatically incorrect! ;)

allowed?

shankarank
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

https://youtu.be/uU9YAALt828?t=6537

Above is a nice one in miSra cApu by SrI Arun Prakash. Wait until the naDai and mohra finish.

ta-dhi-gi-na-tom is handled with ta-dhi being given 7 each , 6 each ... down to 2-each

7+6+5+4+3+2 = 27 * 2 = 54.

A kurraippu that results in that is multiple of 3 would be this.

To get a common multiple of 14 and 3 - samam to samam for even Avartas would be 6*14 = 84 beyond 54 and that gives a remainder of 30.

30 has to be divided into 6 integral additive parts each divisible 3 to be given to gi-na-tom equally.

That is achieved as : 9+6+6+3+3+3

So it is: 7,7,9 - 6,6,6 - 5,5,6 - 4,4,3 - 3,3,3 - 2,2,3 to complete 84 aksharas.

As the time allocated to ta-dhi comes down from 7, gi-na-tom also gets less and less to give a feel of proportionality.

tvr
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by tvr »

https://youtu.be/nbDkV3vH_14

This is a korvai of Tanjore Sri Upendran sir, which was originally played in chatusram. But here, it is rendered in tisram which looks challenging.

mridhangam
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by mridhangam »

Christian Kenit Ram wrote: 05 Dec 2018, 23:43
Christian Kenit Ram wrote: 04 Dec 2018, 08:56
...

ta - din - ginatom
ta - din - ginatom
ta - din - ginatom

Uttaranga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Purvanga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )

I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the uttaranga has the structure ABABA .
Sorry , can not edit anymore .

Correction :

Purvanga : 43 ( 9 + 8 , 9 + 8 , 9 )
Uttaranga : 21 ( 7 x 3 )

I don´t know if it passes as a correct Korvai due to the fact that the purvanga has the structure ABABA .
Generally these types of korvais dont pass. Normally purvanga is split equally.

But these days i hear korvais having a following structure too accepted and follwed/played by many.

D.tnkt tktr kttk tm . T. Tm .
Kttk d. Tnkt tktr kttk tm. T. Tm .
Trtrkttk d. Tnkt tktr kttk tm. T. Tm ..

Tdgntm-tdgntm- tdgntm//

If you observe the korvai split it goes thus:

8-4-2
2-8-4-2
4-8-4 (3)

555//

According to me this doesnt follow logical purvanga.

Many play this korvai and also justify that the ending kaarvai is a standalone which somehow i am not able to accept.

Mannarkoil J Balaji.

Christian Kenit Ram
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by Christian Kenit Ram »

^

Thanks a lot for your reply , Sir !

shankarank
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

Here is a single Avarta kOrvai , I made up based on caturaSra triSram type syllable formation, but it doesn't quite get into that naDai. Just the first phrase( pUrvAnga) is made using that.

Warning: It has negative adjustments of kArvai at the end of the first phrase.

2 - kaLai - one Avarta:

Code: Select all

|| ta,,din ,,din,   ,tata, ,din,,   din,,ta kata,,   din,,di tam,,,  |  ,,,ta digiNatom   tam,,, ,,,ta   digiNatom tam,,,    ,,,ta digiNatom || ta,,din ,,....
The adjustment is that I robbed the two mAtra kArvai to just make it "di" for the second din in the last repetition of the pUrvangA phrases.

Now I made a slight variation to the above to hide the adjustment, but still that now it looks instead it has a positive adjustment, but the pUrvanga ending now merges with uttarAnga. So hard to tell. :D

Code: Select all

|| ta,,din ,,ditam   ,tata, ,din,,   ditam,ta kata,,   din,,di tam,,,  |  ,,,ta digiNatom   tam,,, ,,,ta   digiNatom tam,,,    ,,,ta digiNatom || ta,,din ,,....

Now is the second considered regular or still adjustment?

It is somewhat like this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterfall_(M._C._Escher)

pUrvangam looks like it has been completed, but uttarAngam already began at the last tAm of pUrvAnagam and looks right! :lol:

shankarank
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

Above seems to be nothing unusual when I heard some kORvais where damaruka yati type formation is used. A phrase reduces to lowest pattern and the second part takes off from the last reduced pattern to build up again. The middle part bridges both.

shankarank
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

As a tribute to SrI Murthy Mama on his kanakabhishekam year:

https://youtu.be/-KmhTeKWXdg?t=5082

In the above concert he takes the kOrvai explained by Sri Balaji (https://youtu.be/mzanBWsf6ko?t=1081) , starts with using 5 as the factor as explained, executes it , then in next round advances by 2 beats ( or one 2 kALAI beat) starts from vIccu (wave) , makes it 6 based. 3 extra with 6*3, 2 extra for 6*2 and 3 extra for last 6*3 fast flourishing finish. Continues to do 7 , 9 and also 10 I suppose.

Just a patterned lesson ( as mentioned by one of his disciples) becomes full wholesome performance.

shankarank
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

Correction: In the above there is no 10. The last one is from half samam - 8 + 16 - 24 aksharas. So after the pURvAnga which goes for 6 aksharas ( 24 mAtras) , the remaining is 18 - which is executed with 9 as the factor.

18 * 4 = 72 mAtras = (9*3) + (9*2) + (3*9)

shankarank
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Re: Structuring a Korvai in the thani

Post by shankarank »

Now more on this pUrvAngam and what can be done without any adjustments:

| ta,,din ,,din, ,tata, ,din,, din,,ta kata,, din,,din ,,, |

Above in 2-kaLai is 27+3 = 30 , leaving a reminder of 34.

34 is of course easy to handle in many ways 5, 5(2) 5, 5 (2) 5,5 using takitathom, tadiginathom tam, formation. Next in the same line one can do 8,5,8,5,8 tadi,taditAkitathom dintAngu and so on.

But I was thinking of ways to see , just like the pUrvangam which has prefixes that progress arithmetically , if anything like that is possible here to add to go beyond this formulaic approach of finding nearest multiples of 3 with even reminders.

Even reminders allow you to add intervals , which is only possible twice as they are in between the thrice repeating same pattern. And hence sum of the intervals spaces have to be an even total.

On possibility arose with 27 + 7 - with 7 reminder, an odd number. If I did prefixes starting with 1 , then can I do 1, 2, 4 as prefixes in the uttarAngam? 1, 2, 4 form a geometric progression for which you cannot start with 0. pUrvangam starts with nothing and adds a 'ta', and 'taka' as prefixes to the same repeating pattern. As prefixes they do sound out as separate entities and hence can be considered separately from the thrice repeating pattern itself. Otherwise people can project that the total ( prefix + pattern ) progresses arithmetically.

The latter question is important , since if we treat prefixes as their own separate entities, can they then have their own progression which could be geometric?

Common progression in prefixes heard are nothing (0) , ta, taka OR nothing (0) , taka, takathiku - things like that.

Now if geometric progression is allowed on prefix alone , like ta, taka, takathiku then we have many nice possibilities , especially when combined with intervals who sum is even.

So you can have just a 7 reminder handled. Or 7+4 where 4 is handled as 2 & 2 as intervals. 7 + 6 and so on. So multiples of 3 that leave many odd valued reminders have a new leash of life!

Is this something new or already in practice? Would like to know.

So in this case for the reminder of 34 mAtras , we can have 27 + 7 where it is 1,9, 2, 9 , 4 9 with 1, 2, 4 as prefixes.

If we also add interval into the mix we will have :

1 , 7 , 3 , 2, 7, 3 , 4, 7 where 7 is thrice repeating pattern , 3 is the two interval spaces and 1, 2, 4 form the prefixes, executed with their own emphatic sollus.

For 3 rounds we can add using a 6 and a 5 pattern:

For 6 : 1, 6, 3, 2 , 6, 3-3 , 4, 6 - where now the interval itself has it's own arithmetic progression 3, and then 3,3. Possible? Aesthetic?

For 5 : 1, 5, 3-3 , 2, 5, 3-3, 4, 5

So the patterns with 5, 6, 7 can be done in each of the 3 rounds of the kOrvai.

Welcome comments from experts!

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