laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Tālam & Layam related topics
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vasanthakokilam
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laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by vasanthakokilam »

(thread split from http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24377 )
(Hence my rather unfashionable Thyagaraja-fanaticism :-))
Can you elaborate more on the layam of Thyagaraja compositions? I have some experiential impressions myself but want to know what yours are. And also, how that compares with Shyama Sasthri who is a laya master himself, probably of a different kind. (incidentally, MD who had probably used more talas than most seemed to have used only a few templates for the internal laya)

Now I very much want to listen to what TMK did with that sollu dominated niraval line!

ksharanam
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by ksharanam »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Can you elaborate more on the layam of Thyagaraja compositions? I have some experiential impressions myself but want to know what yours are. And also, how that compares with Shyama Sasthri who is a laya master himself, probably of a different kind. (incidentally, MD who had probably used more talas than most seemed to have used only a few templates for the internal laya)
I find that Dikshitar's songs, for the most part, have no internal layam. Using all the suladi sapta talams is not the same thing as layam. There are many exceptions, of course: Annapurne Visalaksi (which some people think is spurious), Kanjadalayataksi, Anandanatanaprakasam, Srivenkatagirisam, Srimatrbhutam, all have decent layam.

Thyagaraja's songs, for the most part, have excellent internal layam. You play a Thyagaraja song starting from anywhere in the middle of a line, and people can start marking time ("putting" talam) immediately. This is next to impossible with most Dikshitar's compositions. With Thyagaraja too, there are exceptions where the internal layam is suspect: you can tend to get lost in the middle of the charanam of O Rangasayi, for instance.

IMO, I find it hard to say a lot of general things about Syamasastri's compositions, simply because there' aren't that many available.

vasanthakokilam
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Laya

Post by vasanthakokilam »

ksharanam wrote: I find that Dikshitar's songs, for the most part, have no internal layam. Using all the suladi sapta talams is not the same thing as layam. There are many exceptions, of course: Annapurne Visalaksi (which some people think is spurious), Kanjadalayataksi, Anandanatanaprakasam, Srivenkatagirisam, Srimatrbhutam, all have decent layam.

Thyagaraja's songs, for the most part, have excellent internal layam. You play a Thyagaraja song starting from anywhere in the middle of a line, and people can start marking time ("putting" talam) immediately. This is next to impossible with most Dikshitar's compositions. With Thyagaraja too, there are exceptions where the internal layam is suspect: you can tend to get lost in the middle of the charanam of O Rangasayi, for instance.

IMO, I find it hard to say a lot of general things about Syamasastri's compositions, simply because there' aren't that many available.
ksharanam, thanks.
I think it is a fairly significant point that I see get missed in the popular narrative of CM rhythm. I have my own ideas on what 'internal layam' is. Before I apply that to relate to what you are saying can you describe/explain (or even if possible define) what you mean by that?
Thanks.

ksharanam
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by ksharanam »

vasanthakokilam wrote: I think it is a fairly significant point that I see get missed in the popular narrative of CM rhythm.
Oh, absolutely. I find it's one of those things that people don't talk about, probably out of a misplaced sense of respect; it's kind of like the emperor having no clothes. Happily, I have discussed this with a few other Carnatic music aficionados and found agreement, enough to convince myself I wasn't missing something :-)
vasanthakokilam wrote: I have my own ideas on what 'internal layam' is. Before I apply that to relate to what you are saying can you describe/explain (or even if possible define) what you mean by that?
Part of me wants to quote US Supreme Court judge Potter Stewart — "I know it when I see it" :-) But I'll try.

I feel its got something to do with the natural emphasis points in the talam: the start of the laghu and the start of the dhrtam in Adi, for instance. How well they align with emphasis points in the lyrics and in the music seems to matter. Many of Dikshitar's songs, especially the ones in 2 x Rupakam (or 2 x Tisra Ekam) have rambling charanams where the talam may as well be non-existent. e.g. in Saundararajam Asraye, there's no correlation between the lyric, the tune and the talam. The talam might as well be a single laghu of 120 beats (or however many total beats the charanam has). A typical Thyagaraja song in Rupakam, say Kalaharanamela Ra, has specific emphasis points every new avaratanam of the Talam.

The other feature of Thyagaraja songs (and those of his disciples) is the variety of gait within a song. The lyric often starts after the talam; often, there are pauses in the lyric; sometimes the lyric goes fast and sometimes slowly, within the same line; all these add spice to the layam. A Dikshitar song, in contrast, almost always start at samam. The pace is even throughout the vilambakala section, and again even within the madhyamakala section. Just for kicks, I tried to sing E Tavunara Dikshitar style; starting at samam, at an even pace. It fit the Adi Talam perfectly (!), but ended up sounding boring; it had lost all layam.

I'd love to know what your ideas are too!
Last edited by ksharanam on 16 Nov 2014, 13:00, edited 2 times in total.

arasi
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by arasi »

This topic is very interesting! How I wish I knew layam as much as you folks do to take part in it! Since I indulge in composing, it interests me more ksharanam, and what you say makes a lot of sense :)

VKokilam,
Please continue discussing this, and others too. A separate thread for this, perhaps?

Sindhuja
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by Sindhuja »

Very interesting! Sadashraye (Chamaram) is another case of a "rambling charanam"! musically "vaLa vaLa" for lack of a better term.

sureshvv
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by sureshvv »

ksharanam wrote: probably out of a misplaced sense of respect; it's kind of like the emperor having no clothes.
Not sure I agree with this. I think it is more to do with the role of serving as "guardians of knowledge".

@Sindhuja: How about Thyagaraja yoga vaibhavam? Seems to fit all talams :-)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by vasanthakokilam »

(We will move the out of topic discussions to another thread sooner or later)

I think I understand what you and Sindhuja are saying. Let me listen to your MD examples to sense the effect of not having pronounced markings of the avarthas.
The lyric often starts after the talam; often, there are pauses in the lyric; sometimes the lyric goes fast and sometimes slowly, within the same line; all these add spice to the layam.
My understanding is quite similar to yours. If tala is external, laya is internal. If tala is about the beats, laya is about what happens between the beats. It is inherent in the song and is expressed by the various stresses and emphases that are mapped to the naturally occurring emphasis in the lyrics. Along the lines of 'I will know it when I see it', it is the difference we feel in songs that are in the same raga and the same tala. Those differences are mainly contributed by the internal distribution of emphasis of the song (which sometimes fall on the beat but not necessarily so). And the reason why Mridangists are taught to play to the song. That is, ‘Mridangists play to the laya and not to the tala’. ( that is why Mridangists do not have to worry too much about or have a big use for the angas unlike their HM counterparts )

That is also the reason why the chapus come across as more laya oriented since they have that inherent asymmetry in how the internal subdivisions are combined. We can even think of them as 'Periodically varying Nadai' which definitely contributes to their unique gait. And I think that is why it is easier to sense the pattern the mridangist plays to a misra chapu song since most misra chapu songs exploit that asymmetric structure for their layam. Here tala and laya come together.

Another place where the song, the laya, the tala and the mridangists come together is in non-chathurashra naDai based songs especially trisra and khanda. I attribute that to the fact the mridangists play to the layam and naDai is all about laya. Even though they are overlaid on a tala scheme, as in trisra Adi, the naDai induces a rhythmic feel that dominates other rhythmic considerations.

Along the lines of what you also wrote, our member Mridangist Balaji succinctly put it when asked about speed changes in songs. His bemused reaction was 'speed changes are all over the place, many changes within a single line and not just in terms of double speed or triple speed'.

In that sense laya is more about additive aspects than multiplicative aspects.

I think it is easier to visualize it in terms of the western music rhythmic notation. Simply stated, tala is the time signature and bar lines and the laya is visually seen by the distribution and combination of notes within the bars using those horizontal lines that connect the notes of various lengths. But I think CM has much more variations in 'between the bars’.

Finally, about laya and eduppu, until I got the hang of non-samam starts, I found that to be quite stressful and an annoyance. I am sure a lot of beginning students, especially instrumentalists, wait nervously to pick up that exact spot to start the anupallavi! It is not fun. My troubles are well deserved since my notions about it were stripped of all musical aspects. My idea of rhythm was focussed more on the beat rather than what is happening between the beats. I blame the CM pedagogy squarely for that. Look at the chest thumping way CM rhythm is introduced using the sophisticated and mathematical treatment of the 35 talas. And that is in the first breath.

Back to the eduppu, saying that the eduppu is after the thattu or after the little finger etc is a more tala-centric than laya-centric. One music teacher acquaintance mentioned to me long time back when I vented about my difficulties with getting the eduppu right, in a Zen Koan like fashion ‘It is easy. Understand that the eduppu is in the song’. I did not understand it then but I did a few years later. Eduppu is a natural consequence of the fact that the first emphasis in the song comes after the beginning of the song. That is the musically significant aspect of eduppu. So in that sense Eduppu is about laya and not tala. I wish I can shake hands with that gentleman after 30 years and amuse him by telling him ‘Sir, I got it’!

thenpaanan
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by thenpaanan »

vasanthakokilam wrote: I think it is a fairly significant point that I see get missed in the popular narrative of CM rhythm. I have my own ideas on what 'internal layam' is. Before I apply that to relate to what you are saying can you describe/explain (or even if possible define) what you mean by that?
Thanks.
My 2 humble cents is that, like many other things, the grammar/theory of CM has not quite caught up with the practice on this aspect. What this means is that we don't have proper/uniform terminology to discuss things that are generally known in the community. We throw many words at this aspect of performance -- "kAlapramANam", gait, and a variety of analogical tamil words to describe this. But there is no standard. When constructing a concert list, most artists will talk about this with their accompanists or colleagues or mentors as this aspect forms a very important aspect of performance. For short talams like fast misra or khanda chapu there may not be much difference and the tALam may be enough to describe what is going on. But even here, as an example, whether the eduppu is two or three beats off in a misra chapu makes a difference in how the kriti comes off. Swarakalpana patterns tend to be different for the two by and large, the speed at which they can be sung is different, and the mood that is created can be different as a result. When it comes to Adi, the tALam signature is not adequate to describe the gait of the song. For example, Tyagaraja's justly famous "mukkAL edam" kritis have a very distinct rhythmic feel to them. Classic example is 'brOva bhArama" -- every line and phrase of this kriti is dominated by the mukkaal edam signature and this helps the percussionists enormously. In preparing a concert list, most performers pay attention to these differences (a total genius like TNSeshagopalan may completely ignore it, but that is exceptional). Because of Tyagaraja's genius these kritis are very popular and you typically cannot get away without singing one such in a three hour concert. Similar considerations apply to shorter-length concerts as well -- it is not just the tALam that has to vary, this other kind of signature has to as well. (Some) Dikshitar kritis have a different kind of laya signature to them altogether. You have to pay more attention to the lyrical phrasing (you get that for free in a Tyagaraja composition most times) to get at the laya signature and many of his kritis have no sustained rhythm to them (e.g. the rhythm may be present in the pallavi and anupallavi but absent or different in the charaNam). I started observing this only after a Western reviewer (who was not familiar with Carnatic music) wrote this about B. Rajam Iyer's concert in Boston many many years ago -- "Mr. Iyer used the percussive effect of words very effectively in his presentation."

But I don't have a standard way of addressing it. Hence the awkwardness.

-Thenpaanan

arasi
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by arasi »

Thanks, thenpanan!

Yes, terminology--there lies the problem.

"Mr.Iyer used the percussive effect of words very effectively in his presentation"! is a good observation!

I'm wondering if it was an MD song, sanskrit perhaps being more intimating to an untrained ear in CM. Or, even Sivan...He sang karuNAnidhiyE thAyE perhaps, and the madhyama kAlam passage in it would have stood out??

harimau
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T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by harimau »

ksharanam wrote:
vasanthakokilam said "I think it is a fairly significant point that I see get missed in the popular narrative of CM rhythm."

Oh, absolutely. I find it's one of those things that people don't talk about, probably out of a misplaced sense of respect; it's kind of like the emperor having no clothes. Happily, I have discussed this with a few other Carnatic music aficionados and found agreement, enough to convince myself I wasn't missing something :-)
In that case, let us strip the few clothes Thyagaraja is wearing.

One might as well stop singing Thyagaraja's (and disciples' and Papanasam Sivan's) krithis at the end of the anupallavi. After all, the charanam's varna mettu is pretty much those of the pallavi and anupallavi joined together. You can take any number of krithis such as Nannu Palimpa, Sarasa Sama Dana, etc., and you will find that is the case.
ksharanam wrote:
vasanthakokilam said "I have my own ideas on what 'internal layam' is. Before I apply that to relate to what you are saying can you describe/explain (or even if possible define) what you mean by that?"

Part of me wants to quote US Supreme Court judge Potter Stewart — "I know it when I see it" :-) But I'll try.

I feel its got something to do with the natural emphasis points in the talam: the start of the laghu and the start of the dhrtam in Adi, for instance. How well they align with emphasis points in the lyrics and in the music seems to matter. Many of Dikshitar's songs, especially the ones in 2 x Rupakam (or 2 x Tisra Ekam) have rambling charanams where the talam may as well be non-existent. e.g. in Saundararajam Asraye, there's no correlation between the lyric, the tune and the talam. The talam might as well be a single laghu of 120 beats (or however many total beats the charanam has). A typical Thyagaraja song in Rupakam, say Kalaharanamela Ra, has specific emphasis points every new avaratanam of the Talam.

The other feature of Thyagaraja songs (and those of his disciples) is the variety of gait within a song. The lyric often starts after the talam; often, there are pauses in the lyric; sometimes the lyric goes fast and sometimes slowly, within the same line; all these add spice to the layam. A Dikshitar song, in contrast, almost always start at samam. The pace is even throughout the vilambakala section, and again even within the madhyamakala section. Just for kicks, I tried to sing E Tavunara Dikshitar style; starting at samam, at an even pace. It fit the Adi Talam perfectly (!), but ended up sounding boring; it had lost all layam.

I'd love to know what your ideas are too!
This is just nonsense. The very first composition of Muthuswami Deekshithar, Sri Nathadi Guruguho Jayathi Jayathi has all three speeds in the very first line.

If you take the krithi Gana Nayakam Bhajeham Bhaje, it starts one and a half beats after the samam, a favorite starting point of Thyagaraja's as can be seen in several of his krithis.

In Meenakshi Me Mudham Dehi, the anupallavi starts one-half beat after the samam so that Madurapuri Nilaye ends at the start of the dhrutham
and Mani Valaye ends at the start of the laghu.

In one of the Abhayamba vibhathi krithis, the madhyama kala sahithyam does not start on the samam but one beat later.

Thus, Deekshithar has demonstrated that he knew how to use rhythmic variations. That he chose not to do it in every one of his krithis is merely his choice.

The other thing is about nadai (gait) variation within a krithi. This is actually child's play if you know how to play with the lyrics. There was this song I heard just yesterday in a concert and the words were "Sarvabhouma Rama". If you allocate one mathrai to "Sarvabhouma" and one mathrai to "Rama", you will get a variation in gait. All one has to say is "Lambodhara Sodara" followed by "Guruguha" and allocate just one mathrai to each of those and on top of that stretch "Lambodhara Sodara", you can get not just sankeerna nadai, you can get a nadai of 11 beats or 13 beats or 17 beats. Deekshithar was able to choose his words carefully and fit it into the tala cycle so well that this kind of jugglery was not needed.

It is just that each composer chose a certain style for the majority of his compositions.

If you find Deekshithar's compositions boring, you should be condemned to listen for the rest of your life to laya-rich Oothukkadu compositions. The Snake Dance Song repeated endlessly would be the ideal punishment for you.

sureshvv
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by sureshvv »

Thank you for jumping to Deekshitar's defense. May be some lec-dems need to be organized to clear this misconception about the laya aspect in his kritis.

Of course, no need to disparage Thyagaraja or Sivan for this noble purpose :-)

sureshvv
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by sureshvv »

vasanthakokilam wrote: And also, how that compares with Shyama Sasthri who is a laya master himself, probably of a different kind.
I have noticed that in some kritis of SS, the internal layam seems to be different from the talam (like in Palinchu Kamakshi, which feels like misra chapu). Is this deliberate or just coincidental?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suresh, very good observation. Both father and son ( Shyama Shastri and Subbaraya Shastri ) are specialists in that type of laya arrangement. That is the 'additive layam' I mentioned earlier. That is, take the 32 sub units and combine it in groups of various lengths for some delightful layam. The mridangists play to those splits thus producing illusions of different 'gathi swaroopa'.

Such things attain their ultimate in their chittaswarams where the laya takes over as the main contributor of what we perceive as great music.

Palinchu Kamakshi is in fact an excellent example of that.

The first line split is like this in to the various swaroopas.
3 + 3 + (3 + 4 )+ 3 + 3 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 2 ( the last 2 if you want to sing the 'amba') or for a variation
3 + 3 + (3 + 4 )+ 3 + 3 + 3 + 5 + 5 ( with out the amba so there is some 'niraval'/'spreading' to take its two subunits )

Such splits are the reasons for that beautiful inherent(internal) layam.

And the Chittaswaram switches to a higher gear. It is a beauty. It is sort of like a kOrvai in itself.

ni sa ri pa ma ri sa (7)

ni sa ri ma ri sa (6)

ni sa ri sA,,,, (8)

ri sa ni pA, pa (6)

ma pa ni sa rI (5)

---

pa ma pa sa ri sa (6)

ma pa ma ni pa (5)

sa ni ri sa ma rI , (8)

sa ni pa (3)

ri sa , ni pa ma , ri, sa (10)

----
The poorvanga part of the chittawara is 13 + 8 + 11 and the uttaranga is 11 + 8 + 13
That is a mirror symmetry with the fulcrum on 8 with different weights for the two. So one can repeat the poorvanga and uttaranga separately showcasing that mirror symmetry.
When one sings them together it can be perceived as (13 + 8)+ 22 + (8 + 13), another beautiful mirror symmetry
And you sing them at faster speed which can give the illusion of 21 + 22 + 21 thus yielding a perfect symmetry.

ksharanam
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by ksharanam »

harimau wrote: In that case, let us strip the few clothes Thyagaraja is wearing.

One might as well stop singing Thyagaraja's (and disciples' and Papanasam Sivan's) krithis at the end of the anupallavi. After all, the charanam's varna mettu is pretty much those of the pallavi and anupallavi joined together. You can take any number of krithis such as Nannu Palimpa, Sarasa Sama Dana, etc., and you will find that is the case.
I don't see how this is relevant at all to my point; sure, Thyagaraja copied his pattern from the anupallavi to the charanams. Sure, you could call it a "defect" in his imagination, if you like. But how it this relevant to my point?
harimau wrote: This is just nonsense. The very first composition of Muthuswami Deekshithar, Sri Nathadi Guruguho Jayathi Jayathi has all three speeds in the very first line.

If you take the krithi Gana Nayakam Bhajeham Bhaje, it starts one and a half beats after the samam, a favorite starting point of Thyagaraja's as can be seen in several of his krithis.

In Meenakshi Me Mudham Dehi, the anupallavi starts one-half beat after the samam so that Madurapuri Nilaye ends at the start of the dhrutham
and Mani Valaye ends at the start of the laghu.

In one of the Abhayamba vibhathi krithis, the madhyama kala sahithyam does not start on the samam but one beat later.
I agree with every thing you say above, except that what I said is nonsense. Your demonstrating specific examples of Dikshitar's laya-awareness has nothing to do with my point, which is to do with the *overall* lack of layam in many of his krtis popularly sung. In fact, …
harimau wrote: Thus, Deekshithar has demonstrated that he knew how to use rhythmic variations. That he chose not to do it in every one of his krithis is merely his choice.
… now you're agreeing with me. He's chosen not to employ rhythmic variety in many/most of his krtis. I find that dimension is important to me, and I find it lacking.
harimau wrote: The other thing is about nadai (gait) variation within a krithi. This is actually child's play if you know how to play with the lyrics. There was this song I heard just yesterday in a concert and the words were "Sarvabhouma Rama". If you allocate one mathrai to "Sarvabhouma" and one mathrai to "Rama", you will get a variation in gait. All one has to say is "Lambodhara Sodara" followed by "Guruguha" and allocate just one mathrai to each of those and on top of that stretch "Lambodhara Sodara", you can get not just sankeerna nadai, you can get a nadai of 11 beats or 13 beats or 17 beats. Deekshithar was able to choose his words carefully and fit it into the tala cycle so well that this kind of jugglery was not needed.
It's child's play to add salt to rasam/sambar. Actually adding it, though, is different from knowing how to add it. Some people are OK even if there's excess salt or a lack of salt; they probably value other things (like the amount of chilli powder, maybe). You seem to not value variety of gait, and that's your choice. I value it, and I find it lacking in Dikshitar's compositions. Where's the problem?
harimau wrote: It is just that each composer chose a certain style for the majority of his compositions.
Sure, and I find Dikshitar's style lacking (in this one aspect). Why do you find this so unpalatable?
harimau wrote: If you find Deekshithar's compositions boring, you should be condemned to listen for the rest of your life to laya-rich Oothukkadu compositions. The Snake Dance Song repeated endlessly would be the ideal punishment for you.
:-)

ksharanam
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by ksharanam »

sureshvv wrote:Thank you for jumping to Deekshitar's defense. May be some lec-dems need to be organized to clear this misconception about the laya aspect in his kritis.
Now I'm curious what misconception you think I'm under. Do you actually disagree with my contention that most of Dikshitar's compositions lack an internal rhythm, and variations in gait? I even pointed out many. Of course, there are exceptions ― I even mentioned them myself well before harimau did.

Rsachi
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Re: laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by Rsachi »

Gents,
what a lovely discussion. I had missed it thus far. Let me tell you my tuppence, I thought to put it in a matrix:
Raga, Laya, Bhava,Vocabulary in Kritis (my gross generalisation based on meagre knowledge! :) )
Thyagaraja: Raga *** Laya * Bhava *** Vocabulary **
Dikshitar: Raga *** Laya * Bhava * Vocabulary ***
Shyama Shastri: Raga *** Laya *** Bhava ** Vocabulary *
Papanasam Sivan: Raga *** Laya ** Bhava ** Vocabulary **

Raga refers to the musical melodic juice in the song.
Laya refers to all the aspects of laya, gati, jati, etc. etc. as mentioned here.
Bhava refers to the depth and range of emotive content (rasa).
Vocabulary refers to words as well as mythical/contextual references.

Take out your bow and arrows, brethren!

sureshvv
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by sureshvv »

ksharanam wrote: Now I'm curious what misconception you think I'm under. Do you actually disagree with my contention that most of Dikshitar's compositions lack an internal rhythm, and variations in gait? I even pointed out many. Of course, there are exceptions ― I even mentioned them myself well before harimau did.
You went on to say a little more, such as rambling charanams in Sounderarajam etc. I am no expert in the matter but I feel that this perceived "lack of internal rhythm" as you put it is actually the presence of something else with musical value. It adds a languorous majesty to the kriti that appropriate handling by a vidwan brings out. Which is why it is said that Dikshitar kritis need a lot more training and ability to sing. So your complaint is kind of like saying that this ras malai lacks salt!

ksharanam
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by ksharanam »

sureshvv wrote: You went on to say a little more, such as rambling charanams in Sounderarajam etc. I am no expert in the matter but I feel that this perceived "lack of internal rhythm" as you put it is actually the presence of something else with musical value. It adds a languorous majesty to the kriti that appropriate handling by a vidwan brings out. Which is why it is said that Dikshitar kritis need a lot more training and ability to sing. So your complaint is kind of like saying that this ras malai lacks salt!
Understood. I can see what you mean — certainly, internal variations in rhythm, etc. take away from languor. I (and many others, including some on this thread) seem to attach more value to rhythm than to languor (and its consequent gravitas), I guess. Wouldn't you call it an opinion rather than an a misconception?

Rsachi
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Re: laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by Rsachi »

Oxford Dictionary:
languor /ˈlaŋgə /
noun
1 tiredness or inactivity, especially when pleasurable:
her whole being was pervaded by a dreamy languor.
2 an oppressive stillness of the air:
the afternoon was hot, quiet, and heavy with languor.
– DERIVATIVES languorous adjective,
languorously adverb.
– ORIGIN Middle English: via Old French from Latin, from languere (see languish). The original sense was ‘illness, distress’

languid /ˈlaŋgwɪd /
▸ adjective
1 (of a person, manner, or gesture) having or showing a disinclination for physical exertion or effort:
his languid demeanour irritated her.
▪ (of a period of time) relaxed and peaceful:
the terrace was perfect for languid days in the Italian sun.
2 weak or faint from illness or fatigue:
she was pale, languid, and weak, as if she had delivered a child.
– DERIVATIVES languidly adverb,
languidness noun.
– ORIGIN late 16th cent. (in SENSE 2): from French languide or Latin languidus

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by sureshvv »

ksharanam wrote: Wouldn't you call it an opinion rather than an a misconception?
Sure. At the end of the day, *everything* said here is opinion. I said misconception since you did not acknowledge the musical value (for many others) in your perceived "lack of internal rhythm".

And, Thank you for adding "its consequent gravitas", even if only bracketed :-)

harimau
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Re: laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by harimau »

Homework or the weekend. Locate and read:
The Interface of Verbal and Musical Rhythms in Thyagaraja's Kirtanams by Harold S. Powers for the symposium Arts and Religion - Past and Present, Chidambaram 2001.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Here is the link to two papers by Harold Powers on this layam topic

http://musicresearch.in/categorywise.ph ... &authid=18

http://musicresearch.in/categorydetails.php?imgid=135 "The interface of verbal and musical rhythm in Tyagaraja's kirthanams". presented at the symposium on Arts & Religion, past and present, Chidambaram, February 2001

http://musicresearch.in/categorydetails.php?imgid=134 "Durational, Accentual, Syllabic rhythms in 19th century vocal music: Sanskrit, Italian, Telugu, Madras Music Academy, Chennai, December 2001

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam,

Even though our knowledgeable musicians are not at all bothered to be ideal in properly making the correct usage of the respective technical terms, Aksharakala as the part of Matra, I feel happy to find that a foreigner, Herald Powers did it in one of his papers on this layam topic as furnished hereunder. amsharma

The interface of the verbal and musical rhythm in Tyagaraja’s Kirtanams-Page-5:

The number of Tyagaraja’s Kirtanams in Adi-tala, the general class of symmetrical Tala, enormously outweighs all the others put together, and correlations of textual and musical rhythms lodged within its deceptively simple metric frame can be very diverse. In not a few Kirtanams in Adi-tala the correlation is ad hoc, unique. There are also several general types, however, with many representatives. Some types are paced slowly, with 4 Aksharakalas per Matra, 32 Aksharakalas per cycle; some are paced more rapidly, with to Aksharakalas per Matra, 16 Aksharakalas per cycle. Tyagaraja’s treatments of melodies in Adi-tala alone furnished a wide-ranging sample of the variety of text/music relaltionships in his Kirtanams.

msakella
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Re: laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by msakella »

By analysing the previous post we can observe two very important points which our lethargic musicians have never been used to follow even for the sake of preserving it and to pass on to the next generations. They are, 1. Documentation of the details for the information of others to follow or develop 2. Strictly following the textual details as furnished in the texts.

In 1900 the grand-son of Mutthuswamy Dikshitar, Subbarama Dikshitar found out the importance of writing the compositions in notation in helping the poor aspirants and brought out his monumental work, Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini, with hundreds of compositions written even in symbolized notation for the benefit of the aspirants learning our music. Pitiably, even our knowledgeable maestros or legends who have always been used to do anything for their own self-aggrandisement only, just simply praised him for this remarkable act overtly but covertly never even followed it or developed or encouraged others even to follow it. While each and every aspirant barely needs the notation of the composition to learn it independently our lethargic musicians always discouraged each and everybody in writing the compositions in notation and even created hatred of it. Even in this modern age having umpteen gadgets of far advanced sound-technology very few of them publish books with notated compositions or umpteen pre-recorded CDs only to make money. But none of them brings out books with notated compositions followed by pre-recorded CDs in which the same compositions are sung with division-wise audio-files which facilitate the aspirants learn them independently. This is the great help in documentation which is not followed by many of our lethargic musicians.

Besides, our musicians have many likes and dis-likes adding fuel to the fire of their lethargy. A musician doesn’t like 22 Shrutis and wants to totally remove them from the theory. Another musician sings music extremely well but never likes to demonstrate the Gamakas to help the aspirants. He/She always tells the aspirants that they must know such details themselves by listening plenty of music of the Greats. Still another musician hates the Talaprastara. As he hates the Talaprastara he also hates me as I dug this useless topic out and even wrote three useless books upon that topic. All these conservatives never even mind that pig is also one of the great creations of the Almighty and it also remains along with us all. All such conservatives feel that what ever they hate must even be removed from the nature. This is the nasty tendency of these conservatives by which our community is put to enormous loss unfortunately.

In the same manner, even though I brought out three books on this rare topic,Talaprastara, long ago, in a symposium to discuss on the contents of Sangita Ratnakara held some time back in Chennai with Herald Powers, Smt. Premlata Sharma and her disciple Dr. N.Ramanathan as the participants in the discussions (I was not even informed or invited wantonly) Smt. Premlata Sharma, ultimately, declared “One thing which struck me particularly, I must confess, is that I found the Tala-chapter singularly uninteresting… It is full of a long list of things we don’t do anymore, probably it is just as well that we don’t…”. Had Herald Powers, then and there, been informed of the newly found topic, Talaprastara, he himself, unlike our musicians, would certainly have propagated for it. But, as Smt. Premlata Sharma brought out her commentary on the Taladhyaya of Sangita Ratnakara even without solving the Talaprastara she and her disciple, Dr. N. Ramanathan kept quiet without revealing the news but conveniently passed the above historical resolution.

This is the valuable information for the interested readers. amsharma

harimau
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by harimau »

sureshvv wrote:Thank you for jumping to Deekshitar's defense. May be some lec-dems need to be organized to clear this misconception about the laya aspect in his kritis.

Of course, no need to disparage Thyagaraja or Sivan for this noble purpose :-)
Nobody needs to jump to Sri Deekshithar's defence. His compositions stand on their own. if someone is unable to appreciate them, it is his/their loss.

Someone found Deekshithar's compositions to lack variation in layam, ignoring the fact that it may have been a deliberate choice and stylistic device on the part of the composer. I merely pointed out that, by the same token, Sri Thyagaraja and Sri Papanasam Sivan, amongst other composers, could be accused of paucity of melodic ideas.

harimau
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by harimau »

Sindhuja wrote:Very interesting! Sadashraye (Chamaram) is another case of a "rambling charanam"! musically "vaLa vaLa" for lack of a better term.
Prof. S R Janakiraman makes the point that "Thyagaraja caught the raga, Deekshithar taught the raga". His point is that, in ekaika raga krithis, that is ragas in which Thyagaraja has composed only one song, the raga is clearly outlined in the opening phrase itself.

On the other hand, Deekshithar elaborates the raga throughout the krithi and thus teaches the raga. So, if one wants to learn the raga Chamaram -- and learn to distinguish it from Shanmukhapriya -- there may be no better way than to learn Sadasraye from a competent teacher.

Here is the charanam:

gaurI mAyUranAtha mohanakara shakte
shaurIshavidhIndrAdi sannuta parAshakte
nArImaNyAdyarcita nAdabinduyukte
shArIrakAdividyA siddhAnta yukte
bherI maddaLa vINA vAdanAnurakte
sUrijanopAsita caraNanalina yukte
vANI mA kara dh.rta cAmara sevA sakte
dUrIk.rta durita veda shAstrAdi prasakte

(madhyamakAla sAhityam)

vArIshAdi lokapAlanuta guruguha bhakte
dAridrya duHkha bha~njanakara shaN^karA vibhakte
shuka sanakAdi devatA sevite paradevate
vArijamukhi varadAbhayahaste namo namaste

I read these lines and stand in awe of the composer who could compose such beautiful rhymes.

Those who cannot write a two-line rhyming verse in the language of their choice ought not to talk about Deekshithar's compositions.

PS. I would not be surprised if someone next finds fault with Deekshithar for mentioning bheri, maddala and veena but not the keyboard. :-o

sureshvv
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by sureshvv »

harimau wrote:
Someone found Deekshithar's compositions to lack variation in layam, ignoring the fact that it may have been a deliberate choice and stylistic device on the part of the composer. I merely pointed out that, by the same token, Sri Thyagaraja and Sri Papanasam Sivan, amongst other composers, could be accused of paucity of melodic ideas.
You may be watching too much Arnab Goswami :-) !

harimau
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Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by harimau »

sureshvv wrote:
You may be watching too much Arnab Goswami :-) !
Only in India will persons like Arnab Goswami, Rajdeep Sardesai and Burqua Dutt be considered as worthy of being watched on TV.

I don't watch commentaries, mega-serials, etc.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Harimau, Your post above about MD's prowess is great. I do not think MD really needs our defense as had already been mentioned in this thread but we can always talk about his brilliance and sing his praise. I do not think we can overdo it.

Those two aspects you mention are about Raga and Lyrics ( and the brilliant prasas that go with it ).

Back to the main topic of laya vishayam and visEsham, we should take it for granted that MD was extremely proficient in infusing laya into his songs but he intentionally might have chosen to be a minimalist on that front. There can be many aesthetic and musical reasons for it. Minimalism in art is nothing to be scoffed at.

I do not know what ksharanam had in mind, but we can definitely talk about differences in laya handling among the three composers without making a value judgement ( personal preferences aside).

We can easily hear the major structural differences in the composing styles of the three composers and the primary contributor for those structural differences is laya (by definition). I find MD's compositions fascinating in that respect that his use of talas is broadest among the trinity but layam ( of which tala is one part ) in his compositions are more or less uniform. That is, MD is perfectly fine with varying the speed for a whole section like in madyama kala portion but within each section, the layam is more or less uniform(eduppu changes, speed changes, additive rhythm like taking an eight and splitting it as 3+3+2 instead of 4+2+2 etc.).

There are a lot of things in this world which comply by the rule of three 'if you have three, you can only optimize/maximize two. Take your pick'. May be that is at play here. The three here are Lyrics, Raga and Rhythm. From that point of view I can see why MD would have chosen variety of talas so he gets the right canvas space for lyrics and raga of a particular composition. Variations in internal laya may not have been compatible with the edifices he was building.

SriKrishnan
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Re: laya vishayam and visEsham of various composers

Post by SriKrishnan »

IMHO, each composer has developed a style, influenced by own thoughts as well as the exposure they got. Few basic differences between the approach of and Dikshithar are due to

1) Dikshithar was primarily a Vainika ( Veena player - as he himself describes Vainika Gayaka Guruguha ) . There is no need to pause for taking breath for an instrumentalist. Singers would agree that singing Dikshithar kri this require more practice and breath control.

2) Thyagaraja considered the pauses inbetween as important element in his songs - yati visrama sathbakthi as he says in sogasuga mridangam thalamu - the visrama is what distinguishes Thyagaraja. Typically there will be a visranthi/ pause at half avartha- particularly evident in his Desadi krithis

3) Dikshithar was exposed to Hindusthani music during his stay at Varanasi, he was attracted by the Drupad style of Hindusthani music. Songs like soundara Rajam, hiranmayim lakshmim, nirajakshi kamakshi, Parimala ranga are some examples of this style. The layam aspect is totally different in these songs- the whole song wil have a majestic gait,long karma is, infused layam rather than explicit pauses.

On the humourous side, my uncle used to say Dikshithar krithis have long charanams because he followed Hanumad paddathi - natural to have a long tail, where as Thyagaraja followed Narada paddathi- where crisp punches were the style !

Regards,
Sri krishnan

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: T M Krishna, Seattle, 2014‐09-11

Post by sureshvv »

harimau wrote: I merely pointed out that, by the same token, Sri Thyagaraja and Sri Papanasam Sivan, amongst other composers, could be accused of paucity of melodic ideas.
That might hold water if they had a limited number of compositions. They just created new compositions for new musical ideas. There certainly was no paucity.
harimau wrote: Only in India will persons like Arnab Goswami, Rajdeep Sardesai and Burqua Dutt be considered as worthy of being watched on TV.

I don't watch commentaries, mega-serials, etc.
Please don't take cover behind all Indians. What you did by disparaging the works of Thyagaraja and Sivan is exactly the technique used by the sensational media personalities you claim to not watch. Instead of admitting your error, you go on an offensive against India. Pathetic!

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