What is chatusra thisram?

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Ranganator
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#1 What is chatusra thisram?

Post by Ranganator » 25 Mar 2017, 17:00

Hi all. I think the topic put up is quite self explanatory. I know what is thisram, but can anyone give an explicit insight into chatusra thisram?
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vasanthakokilam
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#2 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 26 Mar 2017, 08:22

Here is a hall of fame thread on this topic: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... 92#p136592
The above link starts in the middle of an understandably confusing discussion up to that point and things are starting to gel clearer at this point. I do not call it a hall of fame thread for my posts, definitely not, I was a mere scribe, but msakellaji and sr_iyer led the discussion and as you will see we took it to the mathematical extreme and then pulled it back and related to actual practical performance. There is something there for the theoretical minded as well as practical aesthetics minded.
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Sachi_R
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#3 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by Sachi_R » 26 Mar 2017, 10:03

Vkm, what a thread. Thanks.

I think all that we would now need is a sound byte of someone illustrating chaturasra trisra and variations thereof with either swaras or sollus. Please oblige.
That file would be a Go-to source for all future discussions.
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Ranganator
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#4 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by Ranganator » 26 Mar 2017, 17:26

A very good thread indeed. Exploring intricate laya arithmetics. Way to go, Akella sir!!!
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vasanthakokilam
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#5 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 26 Mar 2017, 23:37

Check out this link, Plaghat Raghu sir demonstrating various laya vishaya with Abhishek and Anand https://youtu.be/SrhbfdKpprk?t=160 Starting at 2:40 PR mentions mixing Chatusram and Chatusra Tisram.. Hope it is the same concept as discussed in this thread. Hope someone will walk us through it.

What we should observe externally is with chatusram tisram they will repeat the line 2 times in 3 tala cycles.
Contrast this to a switch to a tisra gathi where they will repeat the line 3 times in 2 tala cycles.

Where do artists use Chatusra Tisram? If they want to do gathi bedam from eduppu to eduppu, then true tisra gathi is a nightmare and may even be impossible and not aesthetically pleasing, chatusra tisram illusion comes to the rescue. Of course another way to solve this problem without resorting to chatusra tisram is to do gathi bedam from arudi to arudi.

Talking of hall of fame, this Palghat Raghu directed Abhishek/Anand demo belongs in the Carnatic Music Hall of Fame. Check out all the parts.
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shankarank
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#6 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 27 Mar 2017, 03:30

https://youtu.be/jixYj0hFNxQ?t=3785 - he does caturAshra triSram there!

covered @ viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28522

When syllables break in 3 mAtras in ordinary caturaSra naDai - then a start is made to do 1 syllable (in vocal) every 3 mAtras of caturaSra naDai - then do a taka for each such 3 and takadimi in the next speed for each such 3 - that is in effect doing an inverse of triSram. tAla beats are now in triSra naDai relative to the vocal syllables.

In triSram - vocal syllables will take the form of 3 syllables for each major beat ( 4 mAtras) of caturAsra nadai!

So it is whether you take 3 mAtras of caturAsra naDai to then substitute 2 or 4 in its place ( caturaSra triSram) OR take 4 matrAs ( one full major beat interval) of caturASra naDai and substitute 3 vocal syllables in its place (triSra naDai).
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shankarank
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#7 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 27 Mar 2017, 07:32

Here is another one from Ramnad.

https://youtu.be/joMwpv0Trfs?t=2778

See how he does only 1 @ each of the 3 matrAs and ends with 2, 2 (nidapama entuku) @ the last 6.
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vasanthakokilam
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#8 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 27 Mar 2017, 07:53

shankarank wrote:
27 Mar 2017, 03:30
So it is whether you take 3 mAtras of caturAsra naDai to then substitute 2 or 4 in its place ( caturaSra triSram) OR take 4 matrAs ( one full major beat interval) of caturASra naDai and substitute 3 vocal syllables in its place (triSra naDai).
Yep, well stated shankarank!
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shankarank
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#9 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 05 Jun 2017, 09:01

Here is another one - ramamanOhari ( kriti: mAtangi in ramapriya or ramamanOhari in dikshitar sampradAya ) :

SKR starts with a plain hold through an entire avarta, but KRM gives some premonition of what comes when LV replies - doing caturaSram in 3s. They stay in that mode just doing syllables of 3 mAtra spacing only for a while. Then slowly you see the 3s getting divided by 4 and then 8 and then same with some inclusion of extra prefixes in between.

https://youtu.be/WofW02AARR4?t=3169
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vidya raja
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#10 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by vidya raja » 07 Jun 2017, 09:31

In the The link below Kunnakudi Balamurli Krishna's lecdem on laya , explains the concept at timestamp 58.11 onwards. It is quite clear with example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHWP3XsEoik
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shankarank
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#11 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 07 Jun 2017, 09:48

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SrinathK
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#12 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by SrinathK » 26 Jun 2018, 20:30

I suppose this must be LGJ himself doing it at @4:10 in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv_A3-Jup0g

Is that it? Can someone confirm?

Clever - turning the notes into triplets (R,,S,,| N,,P|,,P,||,N,,S,|,M,,|R,,S||,,N,,S|,,R,|,M,,||) in chatushra nadai to make it look like a nada bhedam, but it's actually not.
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SrinathK
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#13 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by SrinathK » 27 Jun 2018, 10:01

vasanthakokilam wrote:
26 Mar 2017, 08:22
Here is a hall of fame thread on this topic: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... 92#p136592
The above link starts in the middle of an understandably confusing discussion up to that point and things are starting to gel clearer at this point. I do not call it a hall of fame thread for my posts, definitely not, I was a mere scribe, but msakellaji and sr_iyer led the discussion and as you will see we took it to the mathematical extreme and then pulled it back and related to actual practical performance. There is something there for the theoretical minded as well as practical aesthetics minded.
Ok, I just looked at KBMK's lec dem in that thread up there and I realized the Sri mahAganapatiravatumAm recording was indeed using it. It is very simple in principle. There's just one more detail.

He's just singing triplets (t,,k,,d,,m,,) in chatushra nadai at 8 counts or 16 counts a beat - this is no different from counting triplets at 4 counts a beat - just the speed got doubled or quadrupled.

Basically 1) t , , k | , , d , | , m , , || (counting 3 patterns in chatushra nadai) became

2) t,,k,,d, | ,m,,t,,k | ,,d,,m,,|| next degree of speed (8 counts per beat)

If that's too much just do the above in 2 kalai and it's the same thing, just at 50% tempo.

One can do this for 16 counts per beat if one is good enough. What that looks like is this

t,,k,,d,,m,,t,,k | ,,d,,m,,t,,k,,d, | ,m,,t,,k,,d,,m,,||

If you don't get it, do it in 4 kalai at 25% tempo and you'll see it's the same thing as example no. 1.

But do not openly stress the commas. If you say t k d m - you sound as though you are counting in groups of 4, while you are in fact taking 4 triplets in a group.

There is a laya exercise of counting patterns of 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 notes in chatushra nadai, which is basically this. Its in AMS exercises and taught as a basic laya lesson. The difficulty only arises at much slower or faster degrees of speed.

Similarly they can actually be done for any nadai.
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shankarank
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#14 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 01 Jul 2018, 04:41

SrinathK wrote:
27 Jun 2018, 10:01
One can do this for 16 counts per beat if one is good enough. What that looks like is this

t,,k,,d,,m,,t,,k | ,,d,,m,,t,,k,,d, | ,m,,t,,k,,d,,m,,||
There is no way one can imagine 16 divisions in a medium tempo rUpaka, even though one can do it by brute force in 4(s) by fast reciting takadimi-takadimi-takadimi-takadimi for one beat.
SrinathK wrote:
27 Jun 2018, 10:01
If you don't get it, do it in 4 kalai at 25% tempo and you'll see it's the same thing as example no. 1.
4 kAlai is winging it because you are not in a medium temp - you are in effect not in something that feels like rUpakam, some theoretical 12 akshara tAlA in chaukam.

SrinathK wrote:
27 Jun 2018, 10:01
But do not openly stress the commas. If you say t k d m - you sound as though you are counting in groups of 4, while you are in fact taking 4 triplets in a group.
And that plea to not stress the commas but rather imagine them , kind of gives that away - I mean the difficulty is there only.

And there is good reason why TMK called it rubbish ( doing 16 in a medium tempo rUpakam) in the concert hall of Siva Vishnu temple , Cleveland in a group conversation in the afternoon after all concerts were done. I think it was after Sri Ravikiran's concert in the morning - about 2005 or so. He asked me to divide first the 12 by 8 then asked me to speed to 16. He reasoned that there is no telling when saying the 16 syllables as to where the tALA beats for the middle two beats ought to be.

So this is just executed perceptively. He reasoned that, this is due to the fact that 12/16 = 3/4 = 0.75 , nobody can measure 0.75 of the original aksharam accurately and there is no beat hugging mid-way to help with that.

He also mentioned one thing: Sri Kandasami piLLai launched into it once in Music Academy and played a mohra and kOrvai in that for rUpakam and most people didn't know what happened.

Also mentioned was the fact that doing all the 5, 7, 9 etc over 4 counts per beat , plus doing 4 over 3.5 ( in miSra cApu) is all common in the tavil world.
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SrinathK
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#15 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by SrinathK » 01 Jul 2018, 12:35

There is no way one can imagine 16 divisions in a medium tempo rUpaka
Some mridangists hit 24 a beat in a very fast farran (switching to tisra nadai), but then it may be argued that there is no kanakku in that. However, it's actually a fact that most of the laya mind screwing happens from the 6-16 beat range or the extremely slow speed where the pauses run for several beats.

Technically this is an effect that I call 'masking', by not counting the commas, you're hiding the real arithmetic. In this, one can either
a)mask the length of each note,
b)or one can mask the nadai.

For a)

t,,k,,d, | ,m,,t,,k | ,,d,,m,,|| with the commas masked. This is chatushra tisram or as I call it - masked triplets in chatushra nadai.

What KMBK describes as 1.5 counts a beat is basically 3 counts in the next degree of speed). The intervening beats need to be calculated to an eduppu of 1/8 and 2/8 to get this right.

And this is where the difficulty really is - we are good at putting beats exactly between notes or vice versa, but here a certain comfort with higher
speed eduppus is a must to render this correctly.

Now look at what's below, the difference between chatushra tisram and a true tisra naDai

t,k,d, | m,t,k, | d,m,t, | k,d,m,|| (This is a true tisra nadai at 6 counts a beat)

Now it is easy to take this further. For e.g. this is khaNDa tisram (If the first term indicates nadai).

t,,d,,g,,n|,,T,,t,,d,|,g,,n,,T,,||t,,d,,g,,n|,,T,,t,,d,|,g,,N,,T,,|| (10 in 3 beats).

Therefore, we may say that the second term tells you how many beats in which that set of 10 should fit in, and also the real length of each note.

And this is khaNDa chatushram
t,k,m|,t,k,|d,m,t,|,k,m,|| (5 counts in 2 beats or 10 in 4) . This is also in khanDa naDai

A chatushra khaNdam would be 8 sets of t,,,, in 5 counts. A chautshra mishra would stretch those 8 notes to 7 beats, and a chatushra sankeernam could allow for 16 in 9 beats. Logical extension really...

b) And now the other type of masking - masking the naDai.

t,,k,,| d,,m,, | t,,k,,|d,,m,, || Clearly this is in tisra nadai. If you hide the commas and sing it like (t k | d m | t k | d m ||) , this could be in any nadai, and you wouldn't know. You could even use this to smoothly change nadais in a higher degree of speed. Like this.

t,k,|d,m,|t,k,|d,m|| (Now you are definitely in chatushra nadai, and yet you're still singing 2 notes a beat).

The whole art of laya IS in the pause (hence the term 'laya' which means 'rest'). :)
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shankarank
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#16 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 02 Jul 2018, 10:53

SrinathK wrote:
27 Jun 2018, 10:01
t,,k,,d,,m,,t,,k | ,,d,,m,,t,,k,,d, | ,m,,t,,k,,d,,m,,||
In the above - where there are 16 divisions per beat as shown below:

t,,k,,d,,m,,t,,k |

lets replace commas with tkd solfas.

tkd tkd tkd tkd tkd t | kd tkd tkd tkd tkd tk | d tkd tkd tkd tkd tkd ||

Without that representation , hypothetically , in a procedural sense we cannot imagine 3(s). Unless you use different syllables tkd to represent the 3 , you cannot reckon trplets to begin with. Else the the triplet boundary cannot be demarcated. For example we cannot do "ttt" or "kkk" , for we will lose track of the 3(s). And by the fact that they are different, they have different stresses and the "t" stands out as a sort of beat in your vocalization.

So some singer trying to do this in high speed, even with brute force , to achieve a perfect arithmetic sense, will encounter stress shift and the tALa beat stress suffers an offset to "k", a relatively less stressful solfa when compared to "t" and the next tALa beat alings to "d".

That's what I meant by saying , we cannot win by increasing resolution here.

If rAgAs like dEvagAndhari have to be taken by "experience" - ( anubhavattil piDikka vENDum goes the raga lakshana booklet once distributed in the season ;) ), why not some naDais too for a change 8-)
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SrinathK
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#17 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by SrinathK » 02 Jul 2018, 11:04

That amount of imperfection is always going to be there. We are human after all. Even tani avartanams and their speed changes are by no means strictly metronomic in their application.

A metronome with a custom beat editor to mark all the eats and pauses however can show the 16 in 3 beats very well.

In fact in 2 kalai, without rendering each beat twice, the 16 in 3 beats even at half speed can make for a very effective torture technique. :twisted:

However the 8 in 3 beats or the 10 in 4 beats (pairs) is very much doable, as with the others.
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Christian Kenit Ram
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#18 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by Christian Kenit Ram » 13 Jul 2018, 01:53

There is this video by Puvanur R V Iyer in tribute to M. Palani Subramaniam Pillai , where he does a short demonstration of " Chatushra Tishram " ( He calls it Tishra Chatushram ) in Tishra Jati Eka Talam :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAJ7laqS4U --- on 1:04:10
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