What is chatusra thisram?

Tālam & Layam related topics
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Ranganator
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#1 What is chatusra thisram?

Post by Ranganator » 25 Mar 2017, 17:00

Hi all. I think the topic put up is quite self explanatory. I know what is thisram, but can anyone give an explicit insight into chatusra thisram?
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vasanthakokilam
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#2 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 26 Mar 2017, 08:22

Here is a hall of fame thread on this topic: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... 92#p136592
The above link starts in the middle of an understandably confusing discussion up to that point and things are starting to gel clearer at this point. I do not call it a hall of fame thread for my posts, definitely not, I was a mere scribe, but msakellaji and sr_iyer led the discussion and as you will see we took it to the mathematical extreme and then pulled it back and related to actual practical performance. There is something there for the theoretical minded as well as practical aesthetics minded.
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Sachi_R
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#3 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by Sachi_R » 26 Mar 2017, 10:03

Vkm, what a thread. Thanks.

I think all that we would now need is a sound byte of someone illustrating chaturasra trisra and variations thereof with either swaras or sollus. Please oblige.
That file would be a Go-to source for all future discussions.
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Ranganator
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#4 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by Ranganator » 26 Mar 2017, 17:26

A very good thread indeed. Exploring intricate laya arithmetics. Way to go, Akella sir!!!
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vasanthakokilam
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#5 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 26 Mar 2017, 23:37

Check out this link, Plaghat Raghu sir demonstrating various laya vishaya with Abhishek and Anand https://youtu.be/SrhbfdKpprk?t=160 Starting at 2:40 PR mentions mixing Chatusram and Chatusra Tisram.. Hope it is the same concept as discussed in this thread. Hope someone will walk us through it.

What we should observe externally is with chatusram tisram they will repeat the line 2 times in 3 tala cycles.
Contrast this to a switch to a tisra gathi where they will repeat the line 3 times in 2 tala cycles.

Where do artists use Chatusra Tisram? If they want to do gathi bedam from eduppu to eduppu, then true tisra gathi is a nightmare and may even be impossible and not aesthetically pleasing, chatusra tisram illusion comes to the rescue. Of course another way to solve this problem without resorting to chatusra tisram is to do gathi bedam from arudi to arudi.

Talking of hall of fame, this Palghat Raghu directed Abhishek/Anand demo belongs in the Carnatic Music Hall of Fame. Check out all the parts.
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shankarank
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#6 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 27 Mar 2017, 03:30

https://youtu.be/jixYj0hFNxQ?t=3785 - he does caturAshra triSram there!

covered @ viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28522

When syllables break in 3 mAtras in ordinary caturaSra naDai - then a start is made to do 1 syllable (in vocal) every 3 mAtras of caturaSra naDai - then do a taka for each such 3 and takadimi in the next speed for each such 3 - that is in effect doing an inverse of triSram. tAla beats are now in triSra naDai relative to the vocal syllables.

In triSram - vocal syllables will take the form of 3 syllables for each major beat ( 4 mAtras) of caturAsra nadai!

So it is whether you take 3 mAtras of caturAsra naDai to then substitute 2 or 4 in its place ( caturaSra triSram) OR take 4 matrAs ( one full major beat interval) of caturASra naDai and substitute 3 vocal syllables in its place (triSra naDai).
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shankarank
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#7 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 27 Mar 2017, 07:32

Here is another one from Ramnad.

https://youtu.be/joMwpv0Trfs?t=2778

See how he does only 1 @ each of the 3 matrAs and ends with 2, 2 (nidapama entuku) @ the last 6.
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vasanthakokilam
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#8 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by vasanthakokilam » 27 Mar 2017, 07:53

shankarank wrote:
27 Mar 2017, 03:30
So it is whether you take 3 mAtras of caturAsra naDai to then substitute 2 or 4 in its place ( caturaSra triSram) OR take 4 matrAs ( one full major beat interval) of caturASra naDai and substitute 3 vocal syllables in its place (triSra naDai).
Yep, well stated shankarank!
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shankarank
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#9 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 05 Jun 2017, 09:01

Here is another one - ramamanOhari ( kriti: mAtangi in ramapriya or ramamanOhari in dikshitar sampradAya ) :

SKR starts with a plain hold through an entire avarta, but KRM gives some premonition of what comes when LV replies - doing caturaSram in 3s. They stay in that mode just doing syllables of 3 mAtra spacing only for a while. Then slowly you see the 3s getting divided by 4 and then 8 and then same with some inclusion of extra prefixes in between.

https://youtu.be/WofW02AARR4?t=3169
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vidya raja
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#10 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by vidya raja » 07 Jun 2017, 09:31

In the The link below Kunnakudi Balamurli Krishna's lecdem on laya , explains the concept at timestamp 58.11 onwards. It is quite clear with example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHWP3XsEoik
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shankarank
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#11 Re: What is chatusra thisram?

Post by shankarank » 07 Jun 2017, 09:48

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