What is the difference between nadai and gati?

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Ranganator
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#1 What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Ranganator »

Hi. I was going through the thread on chatusra thisram and came across the terms 'gati' and ' nadai ' being used differently. Earlier, I was of the opinion that both convey the same meaning. Can someone explain the difference, if any?

vasanthakokilam
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#2 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

There may be two schools of thoughts on this and definitely many schools of confusions but for all practical purposes, they are used interchangeably. We will leave it at that.

Nick H
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#3 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

Good idea, VK: saves a lot of brain pain! :)

girish_a
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#4 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by girish_a »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
06 Apr 2017, 04:34
There may be two schools of thoughts on this and definitely many schools of confusions but for all practical purposes, they are used interchangeably. We will leave it at that.
Er, to my mind they are distinct things. Gati is tempo (indeed the word "gati" means speed). I've heard "taala gati" being used. Nadai signifies the number of "matras" (pulses) per beat.

ajaysimha
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#5 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by ajaysimha »

i have a question on gathi

i have seen a few shlokas set in khanda gathi like
sections of narayaneeyam, madhava panchakam (OVK), shambu natanam, ayi giri nandini and etc...

i understand that it is set to khanda gathi , but my question is:
is it confined to some tala pattern like adi talam or eka talam (in general) or it is just khanda gathi ??

is it the same with sri vighnarajam bhaje of OVK, i see khanda gathi/nadai adi talam is confused with khanda chapu.

please could anybody clarify ?

Nick H
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#6 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

If I remember correctly...

Khanda gati: five counts in the laghu, ie clap plus four finger counts.

Khanda nadai: five pulses per beat throughout.

Of course, either could be also be tisra, misra, etc.,

msakella
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#7 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by msakella »

If Khanda gati indicates five counts in the laghu, ie., clap plus four finger counts, what Jaati indicates then? If both Gati and Jaati are same why two different names are furnished? amsharma

ajaysimha
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#8 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by ajaysimha »

namaste, sharma sir

in one of the lec dems,
i have heard that nadai and gathi are synonyms.
nadai being tamizh word and gathi being samskrita word

please share some info, if this idea is not right

Nick H
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#9 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

ajaysimha wrote:
11 Nov 2019, 18:10
in one of the lec dems,
i have heard that nadai and gathi are synonyms.
nadai being tamizh word and gathi being samskrita word
You can consult the theory chapter of any (or several, to get a consensus) mridangam text book. Doo not believe everything you hear! But, be aware that a few technical terms differ from one school to another.

msakella
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#10 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member ajaysimha,
In my view both are synonyms. As our brother-member, Nick H wrote, in our great country, there may be different schools to the same technical-term. Our stalwarts have always been used some how to keep the things secret and confuse others like the topic Talaprastara. For example, they all are so great that they never included the very very important Talaprastara or Svaraprastara, or all the different oscillations of our notes or the symbolised system of notation or different Gatis in any of the syllabi of the Music-examinations. amsharma

ajaysimha
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#11 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by ajaysimha »

thanks Nick and sharma ji,

now i understand that there is also other way of saying nadai and gathi is different

taking the 3 x 4 = 12 and vice versa 4 x 3 = 12
| 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | 1 2 3 4 | chaturashra nadai
| 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | thishra gathi

am i getting the difference of nadai-gathi right ? please correct me if im wrong

Nick H
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#12 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

OK, so I have a confusion! Or if I once knew I have forgotten...

What is the difference between gati and jathi?

msakella
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#13 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by msakella »

Then, write Trisra-nadai making a difference between nadai and gati. amsharma

Nick H
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#14 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

If we look at the full name for the most common talam in carnatic music, adi talam, we see that it is chatusra jathi triputa talam This confirms that "jathi," at least in this context, refers to the number of counts in the lagu(s) of the talam.

If a piece is performed with each count (akshira) being three (matra. msakella, and some others, will differ here, but let us not diverge for that argument: each to their own!) instead of the default four, then it will be "tisra nadai chatusra jathi triputa talam."

I think this example neatly answers the original question with an every day example. Within that example, some spell the word with a J, and some with a G.

msakella
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#15 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by msakella »

Excellent definition! amsharma

ajaysimha
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#16 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by ajaysimha »

thanks nick and sharma ji for helping me understand this example bit by bit

tisra nadai = 3 aksharas per count
chatusra jathi = 4 counts per laghu
triputa talam = 1L + 1D + 1D

tisra nadai chatusra jathi triputa talam
123 - 123 - 123 - 123 | 123 - 123 | 123 - 123||

as per this example there is no scope for confusion in understanding the concepts like nadai and jathi.

can we introduce the gathi concept in same example to make it more clear ?

&&

now to have more clarity (to understand the different speeds) -
then what will be the - 'aksharas per count' in first/second/third speeds ?(in the same example)

Nick H
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#17 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

Sharma-ji and some others will define akshara/mathra differently. However, according to me (and the school to which I belong: I was just a poor student):

tisra nadai = 3 mathras per akshira
chatusra jathi = 4 aksharas in the lagu

But we end up in the same place :)...

tisra nadai chatusra jathi triputa talam
123 - 123 - 123 - 123 | 123 - 123 | 123 - 123||

Second and third speeds, just double and double again...

1. 123 Tha Ki Tha
2. 123123 Tha Ki Tha Tha Ki Tha
3. 123123123123 Tharikithathaka Tharikithathaka

The sums are easy to do for those than can do sums. This is one reason that I was a bad music student!

msakella
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#18 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by msakella »

The ‘maatra’ and its application have been defined very clearly In the Taladhyaya of ‘Sangita Ratnakara’. But, with the people who do not agree with it but bring out different versions in this respect in the guise of their own tradition, I hate to discuss with them. That’s all. amsharma

Nick H
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#19 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

Sir, we are agreed, and can be at peace :)

ajaysimha
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#20 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by ajaysimha »

sharma sir, please share what you wanted to.
eagerly waiting.

Nick H
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#21 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

Don't wait... go and read the old threads!

But you may be disapointed: it is no big deal. Just that there are different schools of terminology

ajaysimha
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#22 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by ajaysimha »

yupp, thanks for motivating again ... :)

Ranganayaki
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#23 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Ranganayaki »

Nick H wrote:
18 Nov 2019, 22:07

tisra nadai chatusra jathi triputa talam
123 - 123 - 123 - 123 | 123 - 123 | 123 - 123||
I think the convention is to define the Taalam first and then the nadai - Chaturasra Jaati Triputa Taalam Tisra Nadai.

(For nadai, the words are Chatusra, Tisra. For jaati, they are Chaturasra and Trisra - I don’t know why).

Nick H
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#24 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

Ranganayaki wrote:
28 Apr 2020, 12:02
I think the convention is to define the Taalam first and then the nadai - Chaturasra Jaati Triputa Taalam Tisra Nadai.
You're probably right. For clarity, I'd add a comma before the "tisra nadai," but, obviously, I'm thinking in English, which is plainly not the native language of the system.

I haven't noticed the different words for jaati and nadai, but, again, your experience far exceeds mine. I have noticed some differences in spelling/pronunciation, probably due to differing mother-tongues of the speaker/writer.

Anyway, it is more than 15 years now since I was a music student: I don't really get to talk technical terms much now.

Ranganayaki
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#25 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Ranganayaki »

I thought of the comma when I wrote 🙂 and chose not to put it in.

I mentioned the word differences only because we were discussing terms. Otherwise I wouldn’t bother. These words have occurred so many times here and I have never mentioned it.

Another common mispronunciation is to say Shadjamam for the note Sa instead of Shadjam.

Nick H
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#26 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Nick H »

:) Always nice to talk with you

Ranganayaki
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#27 Re: What is the difference between nadai and gati?

Post by Ranganayaki »

Thank you, Nick.. And I’m glad you are here! 🙂 🙏🏻

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