Similiarity in talas? - Pl explain

Tālam & Layam related topics
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charukesi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2007, 03:49

Post by charukesi »

I posted this in a different section.Iam resposting it here
--------------------------

I find that there is no difference between Khanda jaathi jhampa thaaLa and Chaturashra jaathi triputa thala(Athi) in terms of Aksharas(assuming same nadai). So if acomposer sets about trying to compose a classical song in these 2 supposedly diferent thaLas, how does he bring about the difference?

Also, for a listener when he listens to compositions in these 2 different thaaLas, how will he identify which one is which? For me, I usually hum the tune and sometimes the stress on the syllable and the way the words have been grouped give it away.

But the information I have read on the net so far merely explains the laghu, dhrutam differences between these talas, doesnt quite illustrate the difference in terms of actual rendition of a composiiton.

Also, I have often seen some confusion by a lot of amateurs. Especially the confusion between khanda nadai(in adhi thala) and khanda chaapu. Can you sing, say hecharika ga raara in both khanda nadai as well as khanda chaapu? If so, how is the difference brought out?

Your thoughts on the above 2 issues are much needed.

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-member, charukesi, The total number of Kriyas of Khanda-jaati-jhampa (5+1+2=8) and Chaturashra-jaati-triputa having the name of Adi (4+2+2=8) are one and the same. But, almost all the composers have composed their compositions more in Adi-tala only than in Khanda-jaati-jhampa taking the advantage of the centre-point i.e., the 4th Kriya, the 1st Druta which is also called Arudi/Padagarbham (sorry, I am not much acquainted with the technical terms in Tamil) In the lyric of the composition this centre-point plays an important role giving soothing effect to the listener. This kind of effect could be enjoyed more only by the habituated musicians and others may not be able to relish it like them. The nose can only relish the smell of a flower but not our tongue and our tongue can only relish the taste of a sweet but not our nose. This kind of effect is not found in the Khanda-jaati-jhampa and that is why all the composers preferred to compose maximum number of their compositions only in Adi. Even the singers or even the Laya-vidwans prefer Adi-tala more than any other Tala.
You can sing ‘Heccharikagarara’ using either Adi-tala in Khanda-gati/nada or Khanda-chapu. But, while rendering Khanda-chapu you can stop the Tala after the completion of each Avarta as it consists of 5-units only. But, while rendering Adi-tala in Khanda-gati/nada in which each Kriya consists of 5-units you will be compelled to continue the Tala till the end of it even though the lyric of the composition ends in between the 8-Kriyas of it. Hope you can understand this. If not, I shall try to magnify it still. amsharma.

gsriram
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Post by gsriram »

Hi charukesi,

On the lines of what Akella ji just mentioned, the 1st dhRta/anudhRta (the "arudi") is an important resting place. Compositions (usually) tend to emphasize this place.

I've always found sari evvarammA (shyAma shAstrI kRti in bhairavI) to be a very good illustration of khaNDa jhampa tALa. If you listen to the following link while reckoning khaNDa jhampa (2-kalai), you'll find that the lines are split in a 5-3 (actually 10-6) style with the 5 (or 10) ending on the anudhRta -- this is obvious in the pallavi and chiTTasvara. A recording of DK Pattammal is available on Sangeethapriya at:

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/sundaram ... airavi.mp3

If you want to jump to the song, it starts around 9:04 into the recording (although I wouldn't advise skipping DKP's bhairavI!)

Best,
Ganesh

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

gsriram, sari evvarammA is a good example where the arudhi stress happens on the 6th beat. If I did not know it was khaNDa jhampa, I would have figured it as Adi thala with the eduppu on the 8th beat. That mode of keeping the kriyas seems to fit OK throughout the song. The stress on 'evva' also gives the general comfort level since it falls on the first beat of the Adi. Of course, things will unravel when the Mridangist finishes the song on the 8th beat rather than the customory 1st beat of the cycle if the mridangist plays to Khanda Jampa and I am keeping Adi.

I looked for clues to see if there is a more or less consistent split of words and stresses in the post arudhi section as 1 + 2. That will show that the composer meant to give significance to the anudhrutham of the khanda jampa. It is there in a few places no doubt but not everywhere. Had the post arudhi been a consistent 1 + 2 pattern, then that would be a strong differentiator between Adi and Khanda Jampa.

So, are there any inherent differences between Adi thala - 8th beat eduppu and Khanda Jampa - samam eduppu? Musically, rhythmically and arranging of words on the thala structure wise?

Generalizing, can any song set in Khanda Jampa, eduppu X be transformed without loss to an Adi, eduppu X-1 ?

charukesi
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Post by charukesi »

Thanks for the responses

"If I did not know it was khaNDa jhampa, I would have figured it as Adi thala with the eduppu on the 8th beat."

Vasantha, this is what I was talking about. Have the same problem.

I feel the composition and the wording should be such that only one thaala would be suitable for that and would fit that. And I think thats what skella and sriram have mentioned.

sriram, thanks for the link, I will check it out.


what is "arudi"? Is it something inherent in a composition or the performer decides it?

What I mean is, if the lyrics and wording decide the arudi?

I wonder that a good singer can always sing the song in 2 different thalas without the listener discerning it. He can do so by skillfully stretching certain words and not stretching certain other words. Isnt it? Please correct me if Iam wrong.


mskella said:
You can sing ‘Heccharikagarara’ using either Adi-tala in Khanda-gati/nada or Khanda-chapu. But, while rendering Khanda-chapu you can stop the Tala after the completion of each Avarta as it consists of 5-units only. But, while rendering Adi-tala in Khanda-gati/nada in which each Kriya consists of 5-units you will be compelled to continue the Tala till the end of it even though the lyric of the composition ends in between the 8-Kriyas of it.
----

mskella, singing hecharika in adhi khanta nadai, means stretching the words unnaturally to fit the cycle. Is thatwhat you mean? So if I sing the song in that thaLa and try to complete the cycle using the given words, it will sound really slow. I mean the kaalam would take a beating. Am I right?

Once again, thanks for all the enlightening responses

charukesi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2007, 03:49

Post by charukesi »

msakella, I just had another thought. Maybe there is another difference between khanta chaapu and adhi-khanta nadai apart from just the length of the cycle. Correct me if Iam wrong.

But when we learn khanta chaapu it goes

tha-ka tha-ki-ta

The first 2 are grouped together and then the next 3. I believe there is some significance here that goes into the choice of the thaaLa.

whereas khanta nadai is just
tha-ka-tha-ki-ta tha-ka-tha-ki-ta ................ and so on

arunk
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Post by arunk »

try this: A song in khanDa cApu which usually has 4 cycles of cApu per "line". Now imagine the song is catuSra Eka but in khaNDa naDai. You may put the tala differently but does it fit pretty much the same way?

Arun

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-member, charukesi, I shall try to explain. The Pallavi of ‘Heccharikagarara-He Ramachandra’ by singing it twice with sangathis it occupies 8-avartas/cycles of Trisra-jaati-roopaka (5-kriyas) or Khanda-chapu (5-kriyas) or even of Khanda-eka (5-kriyas) and in the end of it you can start with the first letters of the Pallavi to conclude it and proceed to the Anupallavi starting it from the beginning of the 2nd or 3rd or 4th Avarta. But, if you render it in Adi-tala of Khanda-gati you must wait until the completion of the 8th Kriya to start the Anupallavi and, by any chance, if you miss to start it in the next Avarta, again you have to wait until you start the next avarta of the Tala by which not only the audience but you yourself also get bored to wait. While singing any composition in any other Tala you can make it as an experiment but you should not stretch the words to make it fit in another Tala. You very well know that it is always better to wear our own clothes than of others. amsharma.

bhaktha
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Post by bhaktha »

For a kriti like heccarikagarara, I think singing it k.ekam fits it better because it suits the vilamba kalam of the song rather than k,capu. It is quite difficult to maintain the vilamba kalam in k.capu.
-bhaktha
Last edited by bhaktha on 23 Jun 2007, 12:37, edited 1 time in total.

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Often I find myself keeping tala in Rupakam whereas it is Adi tisra nadai happening on the stage!

charukesi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2007, 03:49

Post by charukesi »

arunk, Thats why I think the grouping of the aksharas and where the stress lies in the beat come in, in relation to the words of the lyrics/melody. I will have to try that excercise with some song I know.

msakella, thanks for the illustration. I understand that adhi khanta nadai means unnatural stretching. But in your experience, have you found instances where 2 diffeernt thaaLas like say khanda chaapu, and adhi-khanta nadai or rupakam/adhi thisra nadai have BOTH been able to fit the same song comfortably? Or atleast a situation where a song originally meant in adhi-khanta nadai could be comfortably sung in khanta chaapu?(i.e the reverse of what I said earlier) I think it should be easier to substitute a longer cycle(like that of adhi-khanta nadai) with a shorter one like khanta chaapu. Right?


bhakta and vijay, thanks for the inputs. My experience is somewhat similiar to yours.

charukesi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2007, 03:49

Post by charukesi »

Another basic question. what determines the kaalam? Is there a specific number of beats per time unit that is used to determine which kaalam the song is in? (like how they use tempo (beats per minute) in western music). I know the difference intuitively while hearing, but cannot put it in mathematical terms

raghavt
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Post by raghavt »

Hi Charukesi,

As mentioned by other members, the talas are same when we consider the aksharas. But, the effect of the tala will be different. When the defnition of a tala differs, the effect also changes.

The Sashabda kriyas of the talas help us in distinguishing the subdivision of groups in which the tala components are divided. Eg, Adi is 4+2+2 1st, 5th and 7th beats being the sashabda kriyas. The compositions are compposed taking into account these positions. When to start, stop etc.

As mentioned by another member, if the song is sung in a different tala that has same number of aksharas, the effect, speed (or the mood) will change.

Thanks,
Raghavendran.

raghavt
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Post by raghavt »

Hi,

Well, I think that there is no specific definition of a kalam or tempo. The basic tempo is the one that the person chooses. It can be madhyamakala or say druta kala.

As we all consider 4 sub-division between two beats, the speed in which those subdivisions are considered determine the kalam of a tala.

Eg, takadimi takajonu can be recited fast and slow when we count Adi talam.

Hope someone else can give you a better reply, I may be wrong.

Raghav.
Last edited by raghavt on 25 Jun 2007, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

The Sashabda kriyas of the talas help us in distinguishing the subdivision of groups in which the tala components are divided. Eg, Adi is 4+2+2 1st, 5th and 7th beats being the sashabda kriyas. The compositions are compposed taking into account these positions. When to start, stop etc.
Raghav: We have approched the core of what you are saying a few times in this forum without much consensus. Everyone is on the same page that the mid-point, namely, the second Sashabda kriya of Adi, has significance. Can you try to illustrate the significance of the 3rd Sashabda kriya ( 7th beat ).

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-member, charukesi, As you wrote it is easier to substitute a longer cycle of the composition ‘Sharavanabhavaananda-Pantuvarali-Adi (Khanda-gati/nadai)-Mutthiah Bhagavatar’ with a shorter one Khanda-chapu or Trisra-rupaka. But it is not convenient to stretch the compositions set in Tristra-rupaka or Khanda-chapu in Adi (Khanda-gati/nadai) and the Ata-tala-varnas (14-kriyas x 4-units = 56-units) are also sung in Adi-tala of Mishra-gati/nadai (8-kriyas x 7-units = 56-units. Such things are done by able Vidwans not only to bring out the rhythmical nuances but also to show their ability. amsharma.

charukesi
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Post by charukesi »

Thanks raghav and mskella.

Any thoughts on determination of kaalam? Is it completely relative? In western music you have beats per minute(bpm) to clearly fix tempo. But in carnatic music, can my madhyama kaala be somebody else's dhurita kala?

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-member, charukesi, Yes. Our Kaalam has long long ago been determined and been furnished in the Sangita Ratnakara of 13th century by Sharngadeva. ‘Pancha laghvaksharocchaaramita matra iti kathyate’ the time taken to pronounce five short syllables i.e., ka-cha-ta-tha-pa is called matra and this is almost nearer to our ‘second’. But, in many of our books, instead of mentioning this definition, another huge list of Kshana, Lava , Kaashta, Chaturbhaga etc., has been furnished. In fact, even the duration of this second very slightly varies though not perceptible to the human ear. However, we can take this ‘second’ as the duration of our ‘matra’. Even though the consisting units of matra varied in the olden days later it was fixed with 4-units which we call it Chaturashra. However, the tempo may defer from person to person and the usual tempo of GNB may be the Drita-kala of MDR or otherwise the MDR’s tempo may be the Vilamba-kala of GNB. These things are always relative depending upon the physical abilities of the individuals. But this kind of facility of flexibility is provided in our system to suit the needs of every individual. amsharma.

raghavt
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Post by raghavt »

Hi vasanthakokilam, charukesi!!!

To my knowledge, the Sashabda kriyas are the sounded beats in a tala--for example the claps on beats 1,5, and 7 in Adi tala--as opposed to the silent beats like the waves and finger counts. These sounded beats are important placements within the time cycle (beginning, half way mark, etc.) and thus require sounds for emphasis. I'm not sure what special importance the 7th beat has in Adi tala. After all, it is only conforming to the tala structure I O O.

I agree with msakella with the explanation of tempo. Your madhyama kaala can be somebody else's druta kala.

Raghav

charukesi
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Post by charukesi »

Thanks mskella and raghav. Really helpful

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

These sounded beats are important placements within the time cycle (beginning, half way mark, etc.) and thus require sounds for emphasis. I'm not sure what special importance the 7th beat has in Adi tala. After all, it is only conforming to the tala structure I O O.
Raghav: I see your point about the beginning and half way mark. Do you sense an emphasis on the 7th beat in most Adi thala songs?

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, There may not be any lyrical emphasis on the 7th beat of Adi-tala but to make a difference between the Purvanga and Uttaranga of it and also to make the rendering of it easier than the Chaturashra-eka, it is needed. Seeing the evenness of it and also its equal balance of two halves with a small difference in Talangas making it easy to remember and render it successfully, this must have been named after the ‘Adi-tala’ (the first Tala) and occupied the first place in every aspect of Karnataka-music. amsharma.

raghavt
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Post by raghavt »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
These sounded beats are important placements within the time cycle (beginning, half way mark, etc.) and thus require sounds for emphasis. I'm not sure what special importance the 7th beat has in Adi tala. After all, it is only conforming to the tala structure I O O.
Raghav: I see your point about the beginning and half way mark. Do you sense an emphasis on the 7th beat in most Adi thala songs?
Sir, please tell me the significance of the 5th beat in any keertanam... I've not observed (rather never tried to observe from this angle ...)

Raghav.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Raghav: The 5th beat, as you pointed out, is the mid-point in the tala and many songs have an emphasis there.

I am confused a bit by your question. You already mentioned that the 1st, 5th and 7th beats get emphasis but now you are asking about the signifiance of the 5th beat.

BTW, this all started with the question of what distinguishes these two, other than the kriyas: Khanda Jampa sama Eduppu and Adi 8th beat Eduppu.

raghavt
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Post by raghavt »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Raghav: The 5th beat, as you pointed out, is the mid-point in the tala and many songs have an emphasis there.

I am confused a bit by your question. You already mentioned that the 1st, 5th and 7th beats get emphasis but now you are asking about the signifiance of the 5th beat.
the 1st, 5th and 7th beats gets emphasis as the signify the starting point of each part/anga of the tala. They are the sashabda kriyas as we all know.

My question is: You say that many songs have emphasis on these beats. I've not observed any such significance in any songs when those beats come. Could you please give me an example of one such song and explain the significance of the song at these points...?

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, raghavt, In the Kritis composed in Adi-tala this kind of emphasis is provided with the lyric of the composition. For example, In the ‘Sreerama paadama Nee kripa jaalune - Amritavaahini’ while the first beat is occupied by ‘Sree’ the 5th beat is occupied by “Nee’, which are indicated by capital letters. In the same manner, ‘Vinanaasakoni unnaanu Raa - Prataapavarali’, ‘Vaadera Daivamu - Pantavarali’,
‘Saamajavaragama Naa - Hindola’, ‘Sivepaahimaam Ambike - Kalyani’. There are so many compositions like this. amsharma.

charukesi
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Post by charukesi »

msakella, one more question to you again.

I was thinking of eka thaaLA chatusra JAATHI vs adhi. Iam thinking it would be every difficult to distinguish betwen these two. what do you think?

Because eka thaaLa = half of adhi.
So I can pretty much substitute 90% of compositions which are already in adhi and sing them in eka thaala chatusra jaathi(one beat followed by 3 counts)

Also when I use eka thaala chatusra jaathi, emphasis is on the first beat every time. So the first beat of the second cycle of eka thaaLa = 5th beat of adhi thaala cycle.

So to a listener it will look like Iam singing in adhi with emphasis on 1st and 5th beats whereas I might be singing in eka thala with emphasis on just the 1st beat of every cycle.

This might be another combination like the oen we discussed earlier where itr is easier to substitute, a longer cycle with a cycle that is half of it and is similiar, than the reverse. what do you think?

raghavt
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Post by raghavt »

Thanks for the info Msakella sir, I have not attempted to look at these songs in the manner you explained. Now, things make sense for me :)

Member Charukesi sir - You are correct. In fact, the Nattai kriti Mahaganapatim, I have seen vidwans singing it in Aadi and also in Chatushra Ekam.

If I give you another example - lets take Sankeerna Jati Triputa tala. This has 9 beats. So, if we play the sollu that we play in Roopakam - TAKADIMITAKA or if I speak the manifested Solkkettu, it goes like this:

TANGU TATTADINA TANGU TATTADINA...

TAKADIMI TAKA
TANGU TATTADINA

This sollu can be played in any taala that has 9 beats or multiple of 3 or 9.

We can really correlate this with the songs that we may try to thrust (that is the word that I chose) in a different tala that has the same number of beats. But, the fact remains that the mood may change.

Hope some other can throw better light on this...

Thanks,
Raghav

charukesi
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Post by charukesi »

raghavt, should'nt sankeerna jaathi triputa thaaLa have 13 beats and not 9? It is 9 beats for the laghu + 4 beats for the 2 dhrutams

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-member, charukesi, While Chaturashra-jaati Eka-tala has one Laghu pertaining to Chaturashra-jaati consisting of four Kriyas only Adi-tala has one Laghu pertaining to Chaturashra-jaati consisting of four Kriyas and two Drutas of four Kriyas arriving at a total of 8 Kriyas. There is no difficulty at all to distinguish between these two. What difficulty you are feeling I do not understand.
You can pretty much substitute not only 90% but also 100% of the compositions composed in Adi-tala with Chaturashra-jaati Eka-tala just like substituting a Rupee with two 50 paise coins. But, does the 50 paise coin ever get the stature of Rupee? No. Never at all. Like this, considering many other things also in this respect, all the composers have preferred to compose many of their compositions in Adi-tala only but not in Chaturashra-jaati-eka-tala. amsharma.

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, raghavt, What our co-member, charukesi, has pointed out in regard to the 13 beats of Sankeerna-jaati-triputa-tala is correct. amsharma.

raghavt
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Post by raghavt »

msakella wrote:charukesi, has pointed out in regard to the 13 beats of Sankeerna-jaati-triputa-tala is correct. amsharma.
Sorry folks, I meant KHANDA JAATI TRIPUTA and not SANKEERNA JAATI TRIPUTA. I had the 9 beats in my mind and so, I wrote the Jaati that has 9 beats. Sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing out.

Raghav.
Last edited by raghavt on 27 Jul 2007, 18:18, edited 1 time in total.

charukesi
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Post by charukesi »

msakella wrote:Dear b/s-member, charukesi, While Chaturashra-jaati Eka-tala has one Laghu pertaining to Chaturashra-jaati consisting of four Kriyas only Adi-tala has one Laghu pertaining to Chaturashra-jaati consisting of four Kriyas and two Drutas of four Kriyas arriving at a total of 8 Kriyas. There is no difficulty at all to distinguish between these two. What difficulty you are feeling I do not understand.
You can pretty much substitute not only 90% but also 100% of the compositions composed in Adi-tala with Chaturashra-jaati Eka-tala just like substituting a Rupee with two 50 paise coins. But, does the 50 paise coin ever get the stature of Rupee?
msakella, Iam not sure if you did'nt get my question. I know the difference between adhi and chaturasra eka thaLam, because I mentioned it myself in my earlier post. I am just saying in continuation to the earlier discussion we had(where you said it is possible to substitute khanta nadai adhi with khanta chaapu, remember?) that eka chaturasra and adhi seem even closer. Because like I explained earlier if someone is singing in eka thaLa chaturasra it can still be interpreted as adhi with emphasis on the 1st and 5th beats whereas the person might be singing eka chaturasra with emphasis on just the 1st beat of every cycle(so 1st beat of second eka cycle could become 5th beat of adhi cycle for a listener). Unless otherwise the singer is showing the hand movement it is not possible everytime to distinguish between the two. Hence doesnt it make the 2 thaLas a little redundant? Correct me if Iam wrong.

also when you talk about the 50-paise coin vs rupee, analogy, I dont understand what do you mean by "stature". Can you translate the analogy into musical terms?

My interest only lies in deciphering the thala from a given rendition, especially when there is bound to be confusion as to which one it is when there are 2 very close cycles. Also interested in knowing whether one thaaLa can be substituted for another without giving away its identity and maintainig the emphasis on the same beats that the previous thaaLa cycle had. In other words can the listener be totally deceived into thinking that the song is in one thaaLa cycle when the singer is performing the other one?
Last edited by charukesi on 27 Jul 2007, 20:17, edited 1 time in total.

charukesi
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Post by charukesi »

also msakella, pl visit the following thread on thala vs raga links and pl. see if you have any thoughts to share. Thanks
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3247

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I was listening to the superb SSI rendering of 'bhavati vishvAso mE, rAgam: mukhAri', referred by gundakriya in the mukhari thread: http://carnatica.net/lyrics/bhavativishvasome.htm . I comfortably settled into a tisra triputa thalam with a 1/2 eduppu only to be derailed by SSI picking the beginning of the line in the middle of my thalam keeping. So there was trouble which was later confirmed during kalpanaswaras where he was doing that quite frequently. I figured he is singing to a Misra Chapu thala cycle which is confirmed by what is notated in the above page.

This rendering feels so natural with thisra triputa. I do not sense any thakita taka dimi rhythmic flow. It flows in a very stately and steady fashion with an overall 3 + 4 pattern rather than a hastened and uneven 3 1/2 ( this is no dig against Misra Chapu btw ). It also has a nice rest point in samam which provides the launch pad for the 1/2 eduppu. This especially fits nicely in the anupallavi lines but other sections are OK in that respect as well. There is even a good measure of emphasis on the first drutham if we consider this to be thisra triputa ( though not arudhi like emphasis which is more an emphasis followed by a rest ) but that can go either way.

For those who feel more comfortable with sensing and assigning a major emphasis on the 'va' of bhavati and wants to keep 'va' in samam as opposed to the first beat of tisra triputa, one can consider it to be a -1/2 eduppu ( before the samam ) of tisra triputa. That also seems to fit but I felt that the half eduppu tisra triputa fits perfectly for the anupallavi line.

One thing I can think of as a flaw in my thinking is, in the pallavi line, 'bhavati vishvAso mE bhavatu sadA', bhavatu starts in the middle of the tala cycle if we consider this to be a tisra triputa. But the way SSI sings it he always sings the whole line which fits nicely into two avarthas of tisra triputa.

So the question is: Why Misra Chapu for this song? SSI of course sings it in Misra chapu as evidenced by his occasional choice of thal cycle length during kalapanswaram but I am asking more from the song perspective: Lyrical, musical, rhythmical, poetic meter, etc. Just to be sure, I am not doubling the beats to get to 7 beats and consider it as tisra triputa. I am keeping the beats at the same pace as I would for Misra chapu but count to 7 instead of 3.5.

I am sure there is some explanation or reason why it should be considered misra chapu. I thought I will offer myself out as a target for ridicule ;) but hopefully it will be a learning opportunity.

(In the interest of full disclosure, I am weak in figuring out misra chapu consistently given its uneven beat pattern, especially where the eduppu is, so it is possible that may be a sub-conscious reason for all this but that is not deliberate )

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-member, charukesi, Being very busily engaged in some other urgent work I could, accidentally, go through your post today only for which I beg your pardon. Also I could not go through your link being very busy.

As you wrote it is very difficult to distinguish between these two Talas unless otherwise the singer shows the movement of his hands clearly. Anybody tells the money he is having in his pocket in terms of Rupees only but not in terms of half-a-rupees. In the same manner all the composers obviously have chosen to compose most of their compositions in Adi-tala but not in Chaturashra-eka-tala. Even in the music concerts I did never find a person singing the Pallavi in Chaturashra-eka-tala in his Ragam-tanam-pallavi. By all this what I mean to say is the Chaturashra-eka-tala never gets the ‘stature’ of Adi-tala. amsharma.

sramaswamy
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Post by sramaswamy »

Is it possible use an example and explain why one is Eka thalam and the other is Adi thalam? For example, let us take two of Dikshithar kritis - "Maha ganapathim" in Nattai-Chatusra Eka thalam and "Anandamrutakarshini" in Amrutavarshini - Adi. Why do the current thalams fit these two songs and why not the alternative. To me either of the thalams seem OK for the two songs. Is there any particular reason the thalams are the way they are now?

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, sramaswamy, We can presume that the composers have chosen the Talas which are helpful to fulfil the lyrical meaning up to some extent at the least. amsharma.

charukesi
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Post by charukesi »

msakella, thanks a lot for taking time to post your inputs here despite your busy schedule.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

This discussion about interchanging the inner beats ( sub-division ) and outer beats is quite confusing to me on some reflection. I am referring to the discussion above regarding the musical equivalence of a khanda nadai Adi and 8 avarthanams of khanda chapu ( I do realize that the subdivision counts are the same ).

My mental model has been that the rhythm is in the song. It does not depend on whether there is a mridangist or whether the performer is showing the kriyas or not, those are all external to the song. If someone hears the song, they will latch on to the outer beats instintively. This implies that the outer beats are musically and aesthetically fixed in the way the song is rendered. If that is indeed the case, how can we have two different outer beat structures to a particular rendition of a composition?

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, Only a small towel or banian is enough to cover our skin but we wear tea-shirt or half-hands-shirt or full-hands-shirt or very loose Laalchy or sweater or Coat or evern all these things at a time in cold countries. We can have any number or kind of different outer beat structures basing upon our taste, ability and need but the rhythm in the song relies on Khanda-gati only. amsharma.

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

To add more analogy, if I may...

You may count to five in any language in the world; the words may differ, but you will still be counting to five.

You may count to five on your fingers, or on your toes, you can use beads on a table, you can clap your hands or shake you head and limbs one by one: you are still counting to five.

If you count to five using the kryas of khanda chapu talam (a group including one clap, followed a group including two claps) it is very probable that a newcomer to carnatic music may not even understand that you are counting to five. But five is still there!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks msakellaji and Nickji. Akellaji, I think I understand what you are saying. You seem to encourage my thinking and understanding that 'rhythm is in the song' and everything else follows from it. Variations or alternatives from that are there depending on people's aesthetic sense, imagination, creativity, individual expressions, desires to experiment to provide variations and just individual tastes.

Let me expand on this basic principle 'rhythm is IN the rendition of the song' ( and not in any external notation or gestures or kriyas ). Please let me know if I am pursuing this logically and correctly. I want to get the rhythm thing by feel rather than through intellectual understanding. I may make abundant use of (and possibly over use) the word 'feel' below.

Pulse is the most basic expression of the rhythm and so it naturally follows that the fundamental major pulse one feels about a song is IN the song. That is the one that makes you tap your foot to the song, so to say. So far all this amounts to not saying much other than stating the obvious. One natural and simple result from this very basic observation is the answer to a question that many people ask: 'How do you figure the graham (eduppu) of a song?'. The eduppu business puzzles people since the question itself is framed with respect to the beginning of a thalam. Instead, if we reformulate the question as 'How do you figure if the song starts on the pulse or away from the pulse'? That is a much simpler question and the answer is again simply 'eduppu is IN the rendition of the song'. How so? Because, by feel one knows where the pulses fall for that rendition and it is a simple and trivial observation if the beginning of the song is on the pulse or in between pulses.

If an average rasika can feel the major pulse of a rendition, I can also venture to say the same rasika can feel the sub-division of the pulse without even knowing they are feeling the sub-division. The subdivision by two or four feels the most natural and that alone is sufficient to signal a chathusra or a non chathusra subdivision. We will know that it is somehow different in the case of non chathusra subdivision. All this again is to derive another result 'The gathi is IN the song'.

So without even bringing in the higher level concept of thala, we can establish that the pulse, gathi and eduppu ( with respect to a pulse ) are IN the song. What about the thala then? That brings this post back to the topic of this thread. Is the thala IN the song? Definitely the pulse count per sathitya line ( the basic building block for repetition ) is IN the song but the pulse count alone does not uniquely determine the thala since there are many thalas with the same pulse count. So the question boils down to 'Is the Laghu, Drutha, Anudrutha structure IN the song?'

I am not sure of the answer. We have asked, answered and discussed this question many times. My overall understanding from all the discussions is 'There is no strict Yes or No answer', 'It depends' and 'It is upto the skill and requirements of the composer'. But we have also learnt before that there is an artistic answer, even if it is not precise or if does not work all the time. It is the significance of the purvanga and uttaranga of a song( e.g the 5th pulse of an 8 pulse song. padagarbam, arudhi and the inherent stress and resting place ) which in many cases act as a tie breaker to decide among thalams of the same pulse count. The exagerated stress of that specific pulse and the ensuing rest is definitely IN the rendition of the song. So that makes 4 fundamental rhythmic CM concepts as INherent to a particular rendition of a song: Pulse, Gathi, pulse wise eduppu and poorvangam&uttarangam. One common theme among these 4 concepts is that since they are IN the song, an average rasika can feel all of these musically by just listening to a rendition of the song. Meaning the composer has communicated all this through the song and not through any notation. If he/she had written all this down somewhere and did not show to us, what we figure by feel will match what the composer has specified.

But whether one can spot a Laghu, Anudrutam or drutam IN a song is an open question for me. Stated otherwise but equivalently, can one feel these things? If it is not consistently spottable, I have to reluctantly conclude they are OUTSIDE of the song structure and invented for various other good purposes ( e.g. ease of thala cycle keeping ). As a result I also have to concede that there are instances where it is not possible to unambigously nail down the exact thala ( among thalas of the same pulse count or integer multiples) just by listening to significant portions of the song.

But I am leaving this as an open issue in my mind.

That brings us to the last part which is actually to revisit the eduppu question. Instead of 'How do I find the eduppu with respect to a pulse' let us ask 'How do I find the eduppu of a song with respect to the thala?'.

In most cases, it is a fairly straight forward and inherent property of the song. It is derivable by feel from the pulse, pulse count and the Poorvanga-Uttaranga dividing point of the song. The rough method outline is: Feel the pulse, count the pulses to figure out the avarthana count, feel the Poorvanga-Uttaranga split point and the eduppu is an emergent property from these three 'feelable' things. Meaning, if one gets those three, eduppu is automatically determined.

Having said that, unambigous and precise answer through 'feel' that matches what the composer wrote down or what the books specify is not possible since, by definition, the ambiguity in eduppu is related to the ambiguity in the thala mentioned above. So when neither one is given, it is ambiguous. For example, ( see post #4 of this thread ) just based on my own feel, Khanda Jampa samam eduppu and Adi thala - 8th beat eduppu seem to be impossible to distinguish for a given rendition of a song ( e.g sari evvarammA )

Thanks for reading this far. This has gotten a lot longer than I originally set out to write. Please let me know your thoughts.

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, The inherent rhythm of many of the Kritis of Saint Thyagaraja remains in the song itself and there lies the grateness of him. Even though all the 3 Talas, Trisra-mathya, Khanda-Jhampa and Chaturashra-triputa carry 8-kriyas all the composers have preferred to compose maximum number of their compositions in Chaturashra-triputa i.e., Adi and also in Chaturashra-gati only. Even in any cine-song we find the rhythm is in the song. If not, no commoner can enjoy the song and many of these pictures become flopped. Common man always relishes only the inherent Gati of the song but not the Talangas or any other intricacies or any other technical-terms of them at all. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 29 May 2008, 20:08, edited 1 time in total.

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