Sharabhanandana talam

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tsshreevidya
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#1 Sharabhanandana talam

Post by tsshreevidya » 20 Jun 2018, 21:02

Can anyone plz share more details about sharabhanandana tala like angas, history, any compositionsor any pallavi or anything related to this talam plZz.
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msakella
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#2 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by msakella » 23 Jun 2018, 12:50

Dear sister-member, tsshreevidya,
Sharabhanandana is not a Tala which abides by the rules of Taladashapranas but it is one of the innumerable rhythmical forms of the universe. Having no knowledge of Talaprastara, the 10th element many may think it as a Tala but it is not.
Innumerable rhythmical forms are already there in the universe and which abide by the rules of Taladashapranas are only called Talas and others rhythmical forms or chando-rupas only. Thus, Sharabhanandana is a chando-rupa which should not be rendered as a Tala. But, without having the knowledge of Talaprastrara, Shyama Shastry had created and rendered this as a Tala and, pitiably, even Bobbili Keshavaiah had also accepted his defeat. Both are wrong.
Only by the grace of the Almighty I could bring out this topic in four decades and I have brought out 3 books, which are original, on this topic. By this knowledge only I can tell that this is not a Tala at all but a rhythmical form only like all the Tiruppugal rhythmical forms.
You very simply wrote one sentence about what you require and it is not that easy to do so. If you are truly interested in getting them go through all the previous posts of the thread, New thala structure called "Sivapalatalam", understand more and again come back to me. amsharma
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tsshreevidya
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#3 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by tsshreevidya » 06 Aug 2018, 19:55

Tq for the information I got little bit of clarification with ur replay but y people say sharabhanandana as tala


I know it take a long time to come to any conclusion. Tq once again . I will be back to this topic soon.
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msakella
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#4 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by msakella » 07 Aug 2018, 06:27

Unless one goes deep into this element, Prastara it is not that easy to understand the complexities of it. amsharma
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SrinathK
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#5 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by SrinathK » 18 Aug 2018, 11:26

This will need a bit of explanation. The Sharabhanandana's underlying pattern and anga formation is this :

8+4+2+4+4+2+1+5+2+2+2+1+6+7+5+2+1+2+1+2+5+2+3+6 = 79 units or kriyas.

If you count each number, there are totally 24 angas (starting with the 8 and ending with the 6).

So here, assuming Chatushra jAti (which is the only way to reach 79 counts) Anudhrutam (A) = 1, Dhrutam (D) = 2, Laghu (L) = 4 and Guru (G) = 8.

The other numbers (3,5,6 and 7) will not fit into chatushra jAti on their own. There lies the issue as to why this pattern can't be a tAlA, since jAti has to be sacrificed. This pattern does not fit into tisra, chatushra, khanDa or even mishra jAti in its original form.

If we have to render the pattern in its original form, we will have to use laghus of 4 different counts at once.

Or else, we force fit the pattern into chatushra jAti, but then the total length of 79 units cannot be retained.

Hence, to get it to fit into chatushra jAti, the original pattern is decomposed and modified. First look at the numbers 3,5,6 and 7 that occur in the total pattern. These may be represented by combinations of tAlAngas as shown below :

3 = dhruta virAma = anudhrutam + dhrutam = 1+2 -- this may be called (AD) - the brackets included
5 = laghu virAma = anudhrutam + laghu = 1+4 -- this may be called (AL)
6 = laghu dhruta = dhrutam + laghu = 2+4 -- this may be symbolized as (DL)
7 = laghu dhruta virAma = anudhrutam + dhrutam + laghu = 1+2+4 -- this is (ADL)

These combinations of basic tAlAngAs are called samyuktAngAs.

Therefore, this Sharabhanandana is as follows :
G+L+D+L+L+D+A+(AL)+D+D+D+A+(DL)+(ADL)+(AL)+D+A+D+A+D+(AL)+D+(AD)+(DL) = 79 counts total and 24 angas

But effectively the original pattern has been decomposed to a simpler pattern with 32 tAlAngas to get it to fit in chatushra jAti.

Therefore, what is really being rendered is :

8+4+2+4+4+2+1+1+4+2+2+2+1+2+4+1+2+4+1+4+2+1+2+1+2+1+4+2+1+2+2+4 = 79
G+L+D+L+L+D+A+A+L+D+D+D+A+D+L+A+D+L+A+L+D+A+D+A+D+A+L+D+A+D+D+L = 79

This is not the original pattern at the top. This is using 32 tAlAngas, the sum of which adds up to 79.

This new pattern can now be rendered as a tALa and it will change its total count based on the jAti (which will change the length of the laghu and guru).

This new pattern has a serial number as well, which while time consuming, can be found. But the original pattern is lost.

Use of samyuktAngas is essentially kind of redundant, since it basically decomposes the original pattern into something simpler.

It must be noted that tAlAs containing laghu, guru, plutam and kAkapadam do not have a fixed total length, but their length changes depending on the jAti. Only chandas or meters have a set length and breakup pattern. This is one of the basic differences between chanda and tALa.

The other basic difference is that the length of a beat of a tALA is fixed, and only the angAs change their total lengths - so only whole numbers are used to count in tALAs. In a chanda, the beat length can vary, and half beats and quarter beats or one third beats etc... are possible.

The third difference is that in a tAlAnga, only the first beat is audibly struck, and the fingers and hand waving are only there to track the length of the tALAnga. kAkapada is an exception in that it is totally silent. In samyuktAngas, this condition has to be violated as they are combinations of 2 or more tAlangAs, as shown above.

In practice, we may not observe this difference while the tAla is being rendered with the hands, both will look the same, but a closer look shows the original pattern of Sharabhanananda is not being rendered as it is, because it can't. If you do try to render it in its original form, you will have to use 4 different types of laghus at once, and that will immediately make it into a chanda.

The 128 beat Simhanandana (128 in chatushra jAti only) does not suffer from this problem and is a proper tALa that can be rendered in different jAtis, and the total count will be different in each jAtis. Also we can find its serial number amongst all the mathematical patterns that add up to 128.
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SrinathK
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#6 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by SrinathK » 21 Aug 2018, 18:17

And this is the reason why Sharabhanandana is harder than Simhanandana, despite a shorter cycle length.

The Simhanandana tALA pattern is

G+G+L+P+L+G+D+D+G+G+L+P+L+P+G+L+L+K
8+8+4+12+4+8+2+2+8+8+4+12+4+12+8+4+4+16 = 128 counts

(K for Kakapada, P for Plutam, G for Guru, L for Laghu, D for Dhrutam)

It has only 18 tAlAngas in its cycle, does not use anudhrutam, the kAkapada comes last and the internal splitting is therefore significantly simpler than Sharabhanandana, which is for all practical purposes essentially ends up using 32 angas (despite claiming to use only 24)

Sharabhanandana's pattern is :

8+4+2+4+4+2+1+1+4+2+2+2+1+2+4+1+2+4+1+4+2+1+2+1+2+1+4+2+1+2+2+4 = 79
G+L+D+L+L+D+A+A+L+D+D+D+A+D+L+A+D+L+A+L+D+A+D+A+D+A+L+D+A+D+D+L = 79

If you look at it in terms of no. of tAlAngas only (which is the actual measure of difficulty of a tAlA), at 32 tAlAngas long, it is really a splitting headache. It's has almost twice as many angas as Simhanandana does.

In the table of the 108 tAlAs (http://www.angelfire.com/mb/mridhangam/108talas.html), only charchAri comes close to Sharabhanandana with a total of 30 tAlAngas.

Therefore the Sharabhanandana is easily in a class of its own as far as the difficulty level goes. No wonder Shyama Sastry won the duel (theory aside).
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Ranganayaki
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#7 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by Ranganayaki » 22 Aug 2018, 04:12

SrinathK wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 18:17
And this is the reason why Sharabhanandana is harder than Simhanandana, despite a shorter cycle length.

The Simhanandana tALA pattern is

G+G+L+P+L+G+D+D+G+G+L+P+L+P+G+L+L+K
8+8+4+12+4+8+2+2+8+8+4+12+4+12+8+4+4+16 = 128 counts

(K for Kakapada, P for Plutam, G for Guru, L for Laghu, D for Dhrutam)

It has only 18 tAlAngas in its cycle, does not use anudhrutam, the kAkapada comes last and the internal splitting is therefore significantly simpler than Sharabhanandana, which is for all practical purposes essentially ends up using 32 angas (despite claiming to use only 24)

Sharabhanandana's pattern is :

8+4+2+4+4+2+1+1+4+2+2+2+1+2+4+1+2+4+1+4+2+1+2+1+2+1+4+2+1+2+2+4 = 79
G+L+D+L+L+D+A+A+L+D+D+D+A+D+L+A+D+L+A+L+D+A+D+A+D+A+L+D+A+D+D+L = 79
Is the number of units set in stone for these talas? Can there be Jaati variations? I mean the laghu dont always have to be 4-count ones do they? Just asking out of curiosity.

Of course I’m aware that since very few people have even attempted these talams there may not be actual record of such laghu variations, but theoretically, is the idea of laghu variations to these talas (as in others) valid?
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SrinathK
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#8 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by SrinathK » 22 Aug 2018, 11:17

Simhanandana is a tALa fitting all the 10 elements of a tALA and so it can be rendered in various jAtis. The total cycle length will change accordingly.

Now the Sharabhanandana is a different story. In it's proper original form it is :

8+4+2+4+4+2+1+5+2+2+2+1+6+7+5+2+1+2+1+2+5+2+3+6 = 79 units or kriyas
G+L+D+L+L+D+A+(AL)+D+D+D+A+(DL)+(ADL)+(AL)+D+A+D+A+D+(AL)+D+(AD)+(DL) = 79 counts total and 24 angas

This will not obey the rules of jAti. The modified Sharabhanandana which is decomposed from the original which I mentioned in the previous post however can obey the rules of jAti.

tAlAngas exist for the purpose of counting specific lengths of time in toto. When I need to count 5 units of time in chatushra jAti, there is no tALAnga that can help me count it as 5 units - I have to use only khaNDa jAti laghu. When I do that, only patterns of 5,10,15 and 20 can be directly counted and not other numbers.

As soon as I go for 1 + 4, I have in essence changed the original pattern to another derived one. The serial number of the new pattern will be different.

As soon as I change jAti, the total length of the tALA must change. It is essential that 3s are counted as 3s, 5s as 5s and 9s as 9s and not as 1+2, 4+1, or 6+3. In the case of Sharabhanandana, the 3s, 5s, 6s and 7s cannot be rendered as such, but must be broken down to fit within chatushra jAti, or else we will have to use tisra, khanDa, divyasankeerNa and mishra jAti laghus all simultaneously, which will turn it into a chanda.
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SrinathK
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#9 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by SrinathK » 24 Aug 2018, 10:08

Ranganayaki wrote:
22 Aug 2018, 04:12
SrinathK wrote:
21 Aug 2018, 18:17
And this is the reason why Sharabhanandana is harder than Simhanandana, despite a shorter cycle length.

The Simhanandana tALA pattern is

G+G+L+P+L+G+D+D+G+G+L+P+L+P+G+L+L+K
8+8+4+12+4+8+2+2+8+8+4+12+4+12+8+4+4+16 = 128 counts

(K for Kakapada, P for Plutam, G for Guru, L for Laghu, D for Dhrutam)

It has only 18 tAlAngas in its cycle, does not use anudhrutam, the kAkapada comes last and the internal splitting is therefore significantly simpler than Sharabhanandana, which is for all practical purposes essentially ends up using 32 angas (despite claiming to use only 24)

Sharabhanandana's pattern is :

8+4+2+4+4+2+1+1+4+2+2+2+1+2+4+1+2+4+1+4+2+1+2+1+2+1+4+2+1+2+2+4 = 79
G+L+D+L+L+D+A+A+L+D+D+D+A+D+L+A+D+L+A+L+D+A+D+A+D+A+L+D+A+D+D+L = 79
Is the number of units set in stone for these talas? Can there be Jaati variations? I mean the laghu dont always have to be 4-count ones do they? Just asking out of curiosity.

Of course I’m aware that since very few people have even attempted these talams there may not be actual record of such laghu variations, but theoretically, is the idea of laghu variations to these talas (as in others) valid?
For Simhanandana, I have calculated the durations in various jatis here : viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6860&p=340085#p340085

Sharabhanandana is actually supposed to be a fixed meter of 79 counts (hence the use of those samyuktangas). But the decomposed 32 anga pattern derived from it is a tALa and that can vary in length according to the jAti.

There is one other problem. There is a concept of 16 angas (soDasha angas) where you have angas available from 1 to 16 counts by using combinations of tAlAngas. Unfortunately this concept is only valid in chatushra jAti, for those specific lengths of tAlangas. If you look at it another way, this concept discards the whole idea of jAti itself, instead using custom made angas to count from 1 to 16. The Sharabhanandana is a creation that uses this concept, therefore the usual concepts of tAla do not apply to it.
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Ranganayaki
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#10 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by Ranganayaki » 24 Aug 2018, 17:55

SrinathK wrote:
24 Aug 2018, 10:08

There is one other problem. There is a concept of 16 angas (soDasha angas) where you have angas available from 1 to 16 counts by using combinations of tAlAngas. Unfortunately this concept is only valid in chatushra jAti, for those specific lengths of tAlangas. If you look at it another way, this concept discards the whole idea of jAti itself, instead using custom made angas to count from 1 to 16. The Sharabhanandana is a creation that uses this concept, therefore the usual concepts of tAla do not apply to it.
Ahh, NOW you are clearer. Thanks.
Unfortunately this concept is only valid in chatushra jAti,
In that case this sentence seems to be wrongly expressed and Laghu itself is simply a four count anga. I wonder then how 3,5, 9, 7,10, 11 etc are performed and what they may be called.

Btw, correct me if I am wrong, but the proper usage may be chaturasra jati and chatusra nadai. Trishra too, vs tisra.
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SrinathK
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#11 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by SrinathK » 24 Aug 2018, 18:48

It was trayashra and chaturashra, now-a-days we use a corrupted form of both of them. Someone didn't take care pronouncing them properly and this is the result, now their error has become a global standard. :)

The 16 angas are valid only for chatushra jAti because of this
1) A = 1
2) D = 2
3) (AD) = 3 (Use Anudhrutam to add 1)
4) L = 4
5) (AL) = 5
6) (DL) = 6 (Use Dhrutam to add 2)
7) (ADL) = 7 (Use Anudhrutam and Dhrutam to add 3)
8) G = 8
9) (AG) = 9
10) (DG) = 10
11) (ADG) = 11
12) P = 12
13) (AP) = 13
14) (DP) = 14
15) (ADP) = 15
16) K = 16

Now in other jAtis, say tisra jAti, these lengths are not valid. In tisra jAti, we need only 12 of them
1) A = 1
2) D = 2
3) L = 3 (You do not need dhruta viraamam or AD)
4) AL = 4
5) DL = 5
6) G = 6
7) AG = 7
8) DG = 8
9) P = 9
10) AP = 10
11) DP = 11
12) K = 12

In other jAtis, we will need more than 16 - I haven't read the full table in the book. In khanDa naDai we will need 20 samyuktAngas, mishra naDai 28, and sankeerNa naDai 36 angas. In all these jAtis, A=1 and D=2, but the others will change.

Now just for khaNDa jAti, what are you going to do for 4 counts? (AAD) or (DD)? L = 5 mind you. Similarly for 9 counts, 14 counts and 19 counts, which samyuktAnga will you use? When you get to mishra jAti, L = 7, so you need to find for 4,5 and 6 counts. For sankeerNa jAti, you need to find a combination for 4,5,6,7 and 8 also.

This is the limitation of the 16 angas. If you're using these 16 samyuktAngas as the basis for making any tALa, that is by default going to be in chatushra jAti only.

See, if you want a rhythmic pattern to have a proper serial number as a tALa, the 5s must be counted with an anga of 5 counts, the 6s with an anga of 6 counts. If you're using samyuktAngas to circumvent the limitation of the jAti, then you're breaking the 5 down into 1+4 the 6 into 2+4 and so on. As a result you are rendering a different pattern.

This is why a pattern like 5+7 cannot become a tALa in any jAti, but a pattern like 5+5+2 can be a tALa in khaNda jAti (L+L+D). But by turning the 7 into 5+2, you've lost the original structure. Your new structure has 3 downbeats while the original had only 2 (and the rest were either finger counts or handwaves). If you would try to render them very quickly with only the main beats and skip the finger counts, instead just maintaining a ratio of 5:7 vs a ratio of 5:5:2, they would sound totally different.

But these patterns can be used for chandas, where you may go freestyle and count one laghu of 5 counts and another laghu of 7 counts and get them to work.

All tALas are chandas, but all chandas are not tALas.
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vasanthakokilam
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#12 Re: Sharabhanandana talam

Post by vasanthakokilam » 29 Aug 2018, 00:24

Thanks Srinath. Awesome explanation.
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