clarifications on chapu thalas

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ajaysimha
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#1 clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by ajaysimha » 26 Feb 2019, 16:38

hi rasikas,

1.when one says "just chapu thala". how many counts does the this chapu thalam have ?
2.as common way we have the the odd-value-chapu thalas (khandachapu, mishrachapu, sankeernaachapu, not heard of thishra chapu)
do we even have chaturashra chapu ?(is there no necessity of it ?)
3.how is a chapu thala divided internally?
for example:
khandachapu 5 counts:
eg1: 1,2-2
eg2: 2-1,2
eg3: 2-1.5,1.5
4. is there any angas to chapu thalas or its only denoted by clap actions.

thanks,
ajay simha
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SrinathK
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#2 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by SrinathK » 26 Feb 2019, 18:10

chatushra chApu is what I call it - the bhajanai tAlA - t,tt | t, tt | t, tt ||

chApu tAlAs are not really tAlAs as such, they are technically chandas as they use half beats and have no angas. Although we still call them that or else it will be too much for most people.

Not only that, their origin itself lies elsewhere. In old CM notations, you find they used tisra tripuTa or khaNda Eka or mishra jhampa where now-a-days they use mishra chApu or khaNDa chApu.

The tisra chApu does exist and is very common in all songs using tisra naDai. tt, | tt, | tt, ||

I had a post about it somewhere in this section.

I find that the word chApu is often badly used with incomplete info - it could be often chatushra, but also tisra or khaNDa or mishra, and still all of them are simply denoted 'chApu' in the song info. I do not know any composition that uses the sankeerNa, but it is used in pallavis.

karuna jUdu in Sri rAgA is a composition in chatushra chApu : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkvUbGvTwts
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Nick H
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#3 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by Nick H » 26 Feb 2019, 20:00

Surely the angas of chapu talas are clap and wave? (wave usually being put as a clap, if an upside down one, by audience member anxious to be sure nobody else actually hears the music). A chapu talla simply has no laghu: it has no finger counts.

The grouping is revealed in the konnakal (I know that is the wrong word: sollu? I've forgotten) thus

thaka thakita 2 +3
thakita thakadhimi 3 + 4
thakadhimi thakathakia 4 + 5

Thus, each is split into two units. Also, the smaller one comes first. This helped me out when I first learnt this things, and still does!

No doubt the scholars will disagree, but the above is simple and straightforward. There is no need to complicate it. But somebody will. :lol:
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SrinathK
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#4 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by SrinathK » 27 Feb 2019, 20:19

chApus never really had angas - they're chandas like I said - they didn't come from the traditions that first came up with a technical definition of tAlA. What you see was just introduced for convenience. Maybe the mishra chApu or vilOma chApu get a pass.
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ajaysimha
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#5 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by ajaysimha » 27 Feb 2019, 20:32

as layam concept is like samudhram,
im trying to understand bit by bit
thanks shrinath and nick

when we say takita, its count is 3
it is denoted by one clap or 2 claps
is it just 3 or 1+2 or 2+1 or 1.5+1.5 ?

in mishra chapu
are both allowed ?
takita takadimi and takadimi takita ?

on what basis we decide upward waving and downward waving ??(is it on ones convenience)
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Nick H
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#6 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by Nick H » 27 Feb 2019, 21:28

There may be occasions (I'm sure there are!) when the 3, 5, 7 or nine can be divided into whatever permutation suits. My examples were the basics. I don't think is useful in elementary thought to subdivide the units of three, four, five. But you can if you want!
when we say takita, its count is 3 it is denoted by one clap or 2 claps
I am about to say that there is no such thing is a downward wave, or back-of-the-hand clap BUT the convention has/is (always been?) to put misra chapu as two backhanded claps followed by one wave. So the answer to your question is.... [my brain hurts ;)]
in mishra chapu are both allowed ? takita takadimi and takadimi takita ?
According to the lessons I sat in, no. But someone will disagree!

As I see it, the whole area of trying to define tala is that there are different definitions, according to what book, or which teacher, you learnt from. On top of that, there is a huge inclination to over-intellectualise the whole thing.
on what basis we decide upward waving and downward waving
A wave is a wave. ;)
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SrinathK
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#7 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by SrinathK » 27 Feb 2019, 22:31

im trying to understand bit by bit
And that's the only way it was ever understood by anyone. :mrgreen:

I can't find that old post, so here you go :
tisra chApu - tt, | tt, | tt, ||
chatushra chApu - t,tt | t,tt | t,tt ||
khaNDa chApu - t,tt, | t,tt, | t,tt, ||
mishra chApu - tt,t,t, | tt,t,t, | tt,t,t,||
vilOma chApu - t,t,tt, | t,t,tt, | t,t,tt, || (basically mishra chApu backwards)
sankeerNa chApu - tt,t,t,t, | tt,t,t,t, | tt,t,t,t, ||

Apart from these, I have seen other breakups used for naDai beats. E.g. t,t,, | t,t,, | for khaNDa naDai
Nothing stops you from finding other ways to break the beat pattern (my excel file has ALL theoretically possible variations, generated by algorithm), but this much itself is enough!

Now as to whether you're doing forehand or backhand slapping, I should tell you that from what I have seen, most musicians aren't very strict about it either in practice. Most prefer to hit only forehands, the effort of turning the palm up and waving too much for them. Some of them even skip the half beats and proceed to put mishra chApu like t,,t,t, ||
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Nick H
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#8 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by Nick H » 28 Feb 2019, 18:13

Some of them even skip the half beats and proceed to put mishra chApu like t,,t,t, ||
This made me think (!) ...

Isn't the thakita of misra chapu actually like the clap-clap-wave of Rupakam, except that, by convention, The claps are put backhanded?
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SrinathK
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#9 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by SrinathK » 28 Feb 2019, 20:13

My definition of forehand is slapping with the palm down, and backhand is palm up. :)
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rshankar
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#10 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by rshankar » 28 Feb 2019, 20:21

SrinathK wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 20:13
My definition of forehand is slapping with the palm down
Anatomically, that'll be a pronated strike....
SrinathK wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 20:13
My definition of backhand is slapping with the palm up. :)
That'll be a supinated strike....
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SrinathK
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#11 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by SrinathK » 28 Feb 2019, 20:30

Hopefully @ajaysimha 's got his clarifcation amidst it all... :)
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Nick H
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#12 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by Nick H » 28 Feb 2019, 22:32

SrinathK wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 20:13
My definition of forehand is slapping with the palm down, and backhand is palm up. :)
Mine too: in class we were taught to pronate the thaki. Palm upwards. "Keep those palms upwards!" Guruji would cry, "Or I will beat you all!"

Well, OK, the actual admonition and threat I invented, but not the method as taught. :lol:
rshankar wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 20:21
Anatomically, that'll be a pronated strike....
SrinathK wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 20:13
My definition of backhand is slapping with the palm up. :)
That'll be a supinated strike....
The noisy, out of sync, audiential talam putters need a surgical strike. :twisted: :lol: :twisted:
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ajaysimha
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#13 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by ajaysimha » 01 Mar 2019, 12:15

thanks srinath ji for illustrating out in a comprehensive way !!
if it's not a problem could u suggest any YTB links to follow these sequences
SrinathK wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 22:31
tisra chApu - tt, | tt, | tt, ||
chatushra chApu - t,tt | t,tt | t,tt ||
khaNDa chApu - t,tt, | t,tt, | t,tt, ||
mishra chApu - tt,t,t, | tt,t,t, | tt,t,t,||
vilOma chApu - t,t,tt, | t,t,tt, | t,t,tt, || (basically mishra chApu backwards)
sankeerNa chApu - tt,t,t,t, | tt,t,t,t, | tt,t,t,t, ||
Nick H wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 21:28
in mishra chapu are both allowed ? takita takadimi and takadimi takita ?
According to the lessons I sat in, no. But someone will disagree!
thanks Nick for sharing the wisdom from your classroom sessions

learning to keep grip on these chapu talams (feels harder when compared to suladi-saptha-thalas.)
coz some where the count is getting missed.(might be in diff. nadais)
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ajaysimha
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#14 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by ajaysimha » 01 Mar 2019, 12:58

got this from from mridangams website:

Chaapu Talas
Chaapu Tala (also spelled as Chapu Tala) is a way of showing the tala by beats alone without showing the "Angam" of a Tala. Chaapu Talas are seperately used and are not included in 35 Talas. Chaapu Tala shows the main time measurement by beats. There are 5 Talas that are in use as Chaapu tala. They are,
1. Thisra Chaapu Tala - It is 3 (1+2) - Tha Ki Ta - 1 ½ AksharasKalas. It is actually 3 kriyas.
2. Chathusra Chaapu Tala - Ratio is 2:2 (2+2)- Tha Ka Dhi Mi.
3. Kanda Chaapu Tala - Ratio is 2:3 ( 2+3) - Tha Ka Tha Ki Ta - 2 ½ AksharaKalas. It is actually 5 Kriyas
4. Misra Chaapu Tala - Ratio is 3:2:2 (3+4) - Tha Ki Ta Tha Ka dhi Mi - 3 ½ AksharaKalas. It is actually 7 Kriyas.
5. Sankeerna Chaapu Tala - Ratio is 2:2:2:3 (4+5) - Tha Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Tha Ki Ta - 4 ½ AksharaKalas. It is actually 9 Kriyas.
The Aksharakalas mentioned for each chaapu tala is for common understanding and usage. Technically, it is denoted in number of kriyas.

what is AksharasKalas specifying here ?

off the topic:
also when Nick was mentioning something about rupaka thalam
this striked me:
in general (basic lessons) we put rupaka thalam as drutha + laghu [0+l=2+4]
but when we proceed towards the sahithya sections we have a short cut for same as
anudrutham + drutham [U+0=2+4], how did this get modified and got accepted throughout
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SrinathK
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#15 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by SrinathK » 01 Mar 2019, 12:59

how did this get modified and accepted throughtout
Just like the rest :twisted:
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shankarank
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#16 Re: clarifications on chapu thalas

Post by shankarank » 05 Mar 2019, 10:43

SrinathK wrote:
27 Feb 2019, 22:31
Some of them even skip the half beats and proceed to put mishra chApu like t,,t,t, ||
That last one sort of preserves the idea in a literal sense that it is triSra tripuTA - with only saSabda kriyAs indicated due to the high speed as well as the fact that at such a high speed , you could get away with measuring silent beats (niSabda kriyas) as silent beats.

But from a composition perspective unless actually you reset them to fit let's say a 2-kALAi triSra tripuTA alignment by slowing down and re-adjusting syllables for some suitable eDuppu, with an arudhi gap in the middle, calling it triSra tripuTa is meaningless. They just become a way to measure an unit of 7 - like chandas as you pointed out!

Sri Ravikiran once mentioned that khanDa cApu can be thought of as a fast execution of maTya tALam. If we map the taps to the tALam's saSabda kriyAs , it aligns correctly, but then is it really?

GNB's rUpakam execution, I heard, never turned supine :lol:
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