ata talam

[moksha]

why does an ata tala varnam start after 8 beats?
also,why does the chittai swaram swaram start at samam,taking 16 beats?

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, moksha, Liberty should not be taken as a license to do anything. But, many are interested in writing a book gathering information from 10 or 12 books and in the same way many of our artists, without studying the ‘Shastra’ and even without any intention also to study ‘Shastra’, mis-interpret many of our technical-terms of music in their own way and declare that ther versions must be taken as authentic as they have been taught in that manner by their Gurus. Every individual feels in the same way but never bother even to tally them with the correct versions. More over they find fault with any other version.
In the same way, now, I am confused about the usage of your ‘beat’ and I am also afraid that I, in due course, may even forget the correct meaning what I already know by seeing such mis-interpretations. You would better clarify at first what you mean by ‘beat’. amsharma

[mridhangam]

Sir you are right. Question is a bit confusing. But to help you understand what he means is why ata tala varnas start two beats after samam and why chitta swaras start at samam and end after two beats making the total to 16 beats. Moksha am i right ?

J.Balaji

[vasanthakokilam]

Hmmm.. I thought Ata thalam is 5+5+4 and the pallavi and charanam start on the last anga - at the 11th beat - after the 5+5. May be I am mixing things up here and if so sorry for adding to the confusion.

[arunk]

no vk - it is as Balaji sir says (starts on the ring finger of the first laghu if you will). This is the eduppu for pallavi, anupallavi, muktayi and caranam. All cittaswarams start on samam.

I do not know if this is "convention" or if there is some rhythmic component, but *all* khaNDa aTa tala varnams in gAnAmrta varna mala (Panchapakesa Iyer) are this way - a total of 11 of them!!

One possible reason I thought was that this way, all ciTTaswarams that span 1 cycle would span 16 beats - owing to the fact that they start in samam - go through a full cycle (i.e. 14) or and then take up the next 2 beats of the caraNam cycle (.e. to tie back to the caranam start which starts on the ring finger of that ata tala cycle. But there are ciTTaswarams in aTa tala varnam that take 2 aTa cycles and so with the tie back you end up with 30 (and not 32). So I am not sure this is of any significance.


Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Arun and Balaji. Now I realize why the ata thala varnams do not end where I think it should have ended I have been brushing that under the rug all this time. But otherwise the laya overlaid on my false eduppu of the thala for these varnams was holding up well in my mind, albeit with some odd features like charanam stanzas starting in the middle of a laghu.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, mridhangam, Having arrived at the saturating point of utilising my brain in respect of Talaprastara for more than 40 years of my life (of course, still continuing) I am unable to go through any confusive questions. And, more over, still working hard in the service of music in my own way and taking very little rest, I am more interested in continuing my service than answering such confusive questions which in noway help to make any alteration. That is why even though I go through many questions of our forum I am not entering into any conversation at all. Please don’t take my frankness otherwise. amsharma

[mridhangam]

Sharma Sir we all understand your hard work in the field of music and we are indebted to you for all the FREE advices that you have given through your informative and knowledgeable posting backed by theoretical allusions.

But as per my assumption on the question posted by moksha please try to clarify the doubts pertaining to this thread if you can and i assure you that i will be very simple in re-posing the above question.

1) Why Ata Tala varnas start 2 beats after samam ?

2) Why in that Ata Tala Varnas the Chitta Swaras start at samam ?

Hope to get your enlightened replies....

Mannarkoil J.Balaji

[vs_manjunath]

We have plenty of Thyagaraja songs in deShAdi Talam.
With "thakita " for the 3 aksharams, one practises these songs.
To put swarams for such songs will be a bit of challenge.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, mridhangam, Previously many Mridanga-vidwans are used to play mostly the Jatis according to Adi-tala irrespective of the Tala sung by the main artist. As the Mridangam has become an indispensible accomapaniment and it is not possible to give a concert without Mridangam, I hope, just to pacify them, the composers have composed these Ata-tala-varnas also in such a way that the Mridanga-vidwans will be able to accompany the main artist just like in Adi-tala of 16 Kriyas. I do not know any other cause than this. You please tell me if you know any other cause than this. msakella

[moksha]

But to help you understand what he means is why ata tala varnas start two beats after samam and why chitta swaras start at samam and end after two beats making the total to 16 beats. Moksha am i right ?

yes sir I meant that. I didn't use the proper terms probably.sorry for that.

[vasanthakokilam]

Starting the charanam of a varnam two beats after samam has another implication which I did not realize till now. Usually, they speed up the thala in the charanam and in so doing, do they switch to the new beat interval from the first beat or from the third beat? If they do it only from the third beat, that will imply changing the beat interval in the middle of an avarthana which I would think is a violation of some rhythmic rule. ( Not that it would personally bother me aesthetically, so it is more theoretical )

[arunk]

I think they start the speed shift on samam. The start of the tala cycle on caranam (which in other cases coincides with caranam start) is sort of treated as "second half" of the varnam.

[vasanthakokilam]

OK, I will play closer attention to the speed shift. Thanks.

The speed shift for the second half itself is well sanctioned, I agree. And there does not seem to be any prescribed speed up factor. It looks to be approximately half the beat interval for the second half.

[Ahiri]

This has been one of my friend's pet question and
we have always wondered why in the
K Ata tala varnam,citta swarams start at samam.

Wondering aloud ,no explanations follow :
we sing 64 swarams in the first citta swaram
and this need 16 aksharas(beats?) for it ,
maybe this
prompts us to finish the Caranam without the loop,
which is sung the first time around.

[srikant1987]

@ Question

Yes, I think that, as Shri Akellaji said, it is to make it more intuitive. This way, the Ata tALam becomes 3 + 5 + 4 + 2, roughly an 8-beat (3+5) and a 6-beat (4+2). If you listen to the varnam "vanajaksha" in rItigowLa, you might agree with this. What I like so much about this varnam is that the aTatALam is made so intuitive in it.

[vasanthakokilam]

OK, I will play closer attention to the speed shift.

Arun, I listend to a few ata thala varnams and the speed shift seems to start with the start of the charanam and not at the start of the thala cycle. Can you check this out please?

[arunk]

it is possible vk. I will check. Btw, isnt there a "pause" between the end of the previous section and start of caraNam? Does the mrdangist usually wait for the vocalist to start or do you know of a case where he starts ahead? Or were you counting the pause mentally and measured it to be 2 aksharas in the previous speed?

I guess since there is a pause, and the two halfs are treated quite differently in terms of tempo change - perhaps this is ok (?)

Arun

[vasanthakokilam]

Well, in the few I heard, it looked to me like the mridangist is continuing to play past the samam, right upto the point of the 2nd beat. There may be a small pause after the 2nd beat is heard. So the time between the 1st beat and 2nd beat of the charanam is indeed marked with strokes and it sounded to me that the interval is same as that of the pUrvAngA.