New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

Tālam & Layam related topics
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meena
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Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

#1 New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

Post by meena »

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Last edited by meena on 06 May 2008, 10:10, edited 1 time in total.

coolkarni

#2

Post by coolkarni »

and there are guys like me who have no clue about the old thala structures !!
;) :twisted: ;) :twisted:

vasanthakokilam
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#3

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Cji: Here is our opportunity to leapfrog others by adopting the new technology..( no landline, straight to cell phone ;) )

srkris
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#4

Post by srkris »

No offence, but I first thought it was "SivapAthAlam" - what a name!!!

And why name thalams after persons?

Vocalist
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#5

Post by Vocalist »

Phew! At least it's not called Sivapputhalam!! LOL

Speaking of which, how is the name of a thalam made? Random??

msakella
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#6

Post by msakella »

Dear Sir, Already there are infinite quantity of rhythmical forms in the creation of the Almighty and each rhythmical form consists of a specific serial number. Any body can take out a rhythmical form of his choice from them and name it just like Nisshanka Sharngadeva furnished a list of 120 Talas including the last two talas of them named as Nisshanka Tala and Sharngadeva Tala but without furnishing serial number to any one of his 120 Talas. In the same manner this new Tala was also taken out from the infinite number of rhythmical forms by Mr. Harimohan and he had named it. That's all. Nobody can claim that he/she had created a new Tala. However, by any chance, can he furnish the serial number of it, at the least?.amsharma.

arulguna
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#7

Post by arulguna »

Well said Amsharma!

msakella
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#8

Post by msakella »

Thank you member, Mr.arulguna. amsharma.

mridhangam
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#9

Post by mridhangam »

sir
What could be the Angas for that Sivapalathaalam ? can anyone throw light ? As per the report the tala contains 13 1/2 beats. kindly clarify as to how the tala is represented ?

msakella
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#10

Post by msakella »

Dear member, mridhangam, In the 1st post of this thread its link of ‘Hindu’ is provided but, surprisingly, the Angas are not funished in it. According to this statement this Tala consists of 13½ i.e., 13 x 4 = 52 + 2 = 54 units. If we permute 54-units, as per the Samyuktanga-prastara of Talaprastara, we will get a total of ‘9007199254740992’ permutations. The ‘Sivapalathalam’, irrespective of its Talangas, is one among the above permutations. After seeing my post, if, by any chance, Shri Harimohanan, furnishes its serial number, which, of course, is not possible, I shall become interested in it. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 08 Dec 2006, 09:21, edited 1 time in total.

[email protected]
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#11

Post by [email protected] »

sir Do you know that the sivapalathala is demonstrated in front of sree Dr moorthy 2 sree Parasala Ravi former principal of swathythirunal music college tvm 3 sree Harikumar Talam scholer sree A.S.N.Nambeesan and others The thalam perfomed by sree N.Hari sree Kovai Suresh T.V.M.Vijayan Kottakkal Remasan payyavoor Gopalan in south zone culture programme as thalavadya kachary It is not easy to perform in 5 jathi and 5 gathy like in half akshara like throwing stones
Last edited by [email protected] on 11 Jun 2007, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.

[email protected]
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#12

Post by [email protected] »

the angas are 1011o111 plus sangeerna chappu

[email protected]
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#13

Post by [email protected] »

The sivapala thala appraciated by above scholers and the people who have seen it puting tala like chappu thala if doubt clarify with V.P.Janardhanankarivellur (vallappokam)
Last edited by [email protected] on 23 May 2007, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.

[email protected]
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#14

Post by [email protected] »

Sivapalathalam’, irrespective of its Talangas, thala angas are very different 101101110 plus sankeernachapu We have enough thala with same akshara Talaangas, are very very important. Our seven thalas have 5 jathy and 5 gathy Have any seen sangeerna Jathy Dhruva thalam playing in sangeerna gathy ? But I have seen Sivapalathalam playing 81 unit Koruvai total 243 In sangerna gathy.Theory criticism need Maths and Mouth But by pratical It is not easy to Do Not only that Kahangad T.P.Sreenivasan has composed a Keerthana in Sivasakthy raga is in sivspalathala thala please discuss 1 DrT.K. Moorthy 2 Sree parasala ravi( principal swathithirunal music college retd) sree Harikumar 3 Sree Kovai suresh thank you
Last edited by [email protected] on 21 May 2007, 19:29, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#15

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, [email protected], At the first instance, you must understand my actions in a positive way. I have no intentions at all to throw even a single stone on any of my Indian brothers or sisters and I don’t need to. I am more interested in keeping our cultural heritage in tact. Generally, there will be people of two kinds, 1.doing things innocently 2. doing things wantonly. People doing things innocently can be educated to correct them. But, it is very difficult to stop people doing things wantonly to make easy fame and easy money. Instead of stopping such people, I believe and like in educating the society. In this process I always try to bring out the points, which are devoid of any ambiguity and without any bias. More over I always keep myself open for any correction.
In our Tala system, as per the tradition, the first Kriya i.e., action of any Talanga consists of a Sashabda-kriya i.e., sounded beat. Thus, each Talanga i.e., either Anudruta or Druta or Laghu or Guru or Pluta (Kakapada is fully un-sounded Talanga) consists of the first Kriya, the sounded beat and the remaining, if any, un-sounded actions and each of the Kriyas of these Talangas carry the same duration irrespective of the ‘gati’ it contains. Above all this, according to ‘Talaprastara’ every rhythmical form is already available in the universe and nobody claim any creation of any new Tala-structure. Any person who is wellversed in ‘Talaprastara’ can only understand that there are two kinds of rhythmical forms in the universe and they are 1.which can be used as Talas and 2.which cannot be used as Talas at all.
In respect of the structure of this ‘Shivapalathalam’, in Hindu, it was mentioned that it consists of 13½ . You have mentioned that Tala consists of ‘l 0 l l 0 l l l 0’ plus Sankeerna-chapu occupying 81 Mathras and total of 243. By all this has not been made clear to me. Please clarify:
(1) What do you mean by ‘Mathra’?
(2) How many units are running per each beat and what is the total number of units of these 13½ beats?
(3) As per your own version, in total, there are 6 Laghus and 3 Drutas and to which Jaati the Laghus belong and how many Kriyas are there in each Laghu and how many units are running in each Kriya of the Laghus and Drutas?
(4) What does ‘Plus Sankeerna-chapu’ mean? Does that mean to add 9 more Kriyas of Sankeerna-chapu in addition to the previous series of Talangas? What is the number of units running in each Kriya of Sankeerna-chapu?
(5) What is the serial number of this Tala? amsharma.

[email protected]
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#16

Post by [email protected] »

Dear member before coming to the point I am saying sorry. I am a person insulted from my starting and up to now.
Before giving answer I have to clarify one doubt. One thisra aka talam need three aksharas . up to sankerna jathy dhruva thala need 29 akshara, so 4 matharai need for one akshara in chadurasra gathy so half akshara thalam like sivapalathalam is not coming in this list whether permutation combination is used or not.
For chappu thalams are really half akshara talas .thirupugazh thalams also come in this catigary. Next how many thalas have 13.5 aksharas, how is putting thala for that. One more thing the length between the beat must not be
equal for half akshara thalas. What about Dr Balamurali's and Sree Zakkir Hussain's half akshara thalas? I am eager about that. May I get a chance to contact them and you sir? I am ready to the upload keerthana composed and sung by sree T.P.Sreenivasan kanhangad in this thala. Waiting for your reply.
Last edited by [email protected] on 21 Dec 2006, 06:57, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#17

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, [email protected], Bygones are bygones. Don’t take the past things seriously. At first relieve of your tensions and think peacefully. I am unable to follow the wordings of your letter. Try to write again every point clearly. No hurry. I am here to clear off all your doubts. OK.amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 21 Dec 2006, 13:28, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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#18

Post by vasanthakokilam »

priyamhn, can you please preview your post before submitting it and make sure there is proper punctuation. Also, for whatever reason, in all your posts, words run together ( like this, 'wordsruntogether' ). All this makes it hard to read. I have edited several of your posts including the one above to the extent I can. Thanks for your understanding.

[email protected]
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#19

Post by [email protected] »

there are four mathras for one akshara inchadurasra gathy I :Do :Dont thing it is not easy to clarify but i will try my best thank you:D
Last edited by [email protected] on 22 Dec 2006, 08:00, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#20

Post by msakella »

Dear member, [email protected], Generally, in Chaturashra-gathi 4 amsas or units or aksharas have to be pronounced in the duration of one Matra, which is almost equal to one second. This is the correct way of putting things. Try to clarify in a clear manner. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 21 Dec 2006, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

[email protected]
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#21

Post by [email protected] »

You have mentioned that Tala consists of ‘l 0 l l 0 l l l 0’ plus Sankeerna-chapu occupying 81 Mathras and total of 243.In sangeerna gathi. But in Chadurasra gathi 4units=1 akshara or4mathra 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 444222 units total13.5 units
Last edited by [email protected] on 21 May 2007, 19:23, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#22

Post by msakella »

Dear member, [email protected], In your post No.14 you yourself have mentioned that this ‘Shivapalathalam’ carries l 0 l l 0 l l l 0 plus Sankeerna-chapu. I have taken it from you and mentioned the same in my post No.15. I did not mention anything on my own. More over, all your statements you are writing in your posts are contradictory and highly confusive. By all this I am unable to understand anything from your posts and, in such case, I cannot answer any of your questions at all. amsharma.

mridangam1
Posts: 1
Joined: 26 Dec 2006, 12:08

#23

Post by mridangam1 »

Dear amsharma, you have explained in a wonderfulway regarding the new, so called "sivapala thalam", which is claimed to be invented by some mridangam artist.Actually there are infite number of permutations available , and even for anybody with basic knowledge of thala structure can make large no of such thalas.As per the best of my knowledge,in karnatic, there are 7 sapta thalas,108 margathalas,72 mela kartha thalas etc.( for basic information,Refer cassets of Dr.DKMurthy).If all these thaLAS ARE DEMONSTRATED IN 5 JATIS AND AGAIN 5 GATIS, IT WOULD BE IN THOUSANDS NUMBER OF THALAS.Among these 5 melakartha thalas are consisting of 27 akshara kalas each.In that case there already exists 13 and half aakshara kalas , by 2 avarthanam.
May be the demostration of the artist will be in a unique way of his own.

msakella
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#24

Post by msakella »

Dear member, mridangam1,
(1) You are telling that infinite number of permutations is available. Would you please tell me the procedure how to get the required variety of permutation from the available permutations? You are also telling that anybody, with the basic knowledge of Tala structure, can make a large number of such Talas. OK. How can one do so? What is the procedure? Would you please define it for me?
(2) Among 108 Talas the first 5 are Marga-talas and the remaining are Deshi-talas. All the 108 talas are not Marga-talas at all.
(3) In the Talangas of 72 Melakarta-talas, in many of them, the Talanga, Druta-sekhara-viramam is furnished. But, most surprisingly, I have never come across such a Talanga at all in my life. Would you kindly refer the cassettes you have told me to refer and give me the name of the treatise in which this ‘Druta-sekhara-viramam’ is furnished along with its evolution?
(4) In the news item of ‘The Hindu’ it was mentioned that ‘Shivapalatalam’ carries 13½ beats and our brother-member, [email protected] furnished the Talangas, l 0 l l 0 l l l 0 + Sankeerna-chapu, of it. I shall be happy if you tally these things and make everything of this ‘Shivapalatalam’ clear to me without any ambiguity. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 27 Dec 2006, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.

[email protected]
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#25

Post by [email protected] »

dear mridangam,member
Happy new year
You said that those who have basic knowledge can do a lot.but those who have basic knowledge will not criticise simply with out knowing the content which was approved by the great artist dr. T.K murthy who knows well about other 13.5 thalas difference with sivapalathala. if you are taking the half ticket you will only reach the half way.like that the general speed 13.5 is different from 27. i got it from your answer Iam ready to upload the program which was condected in payyanur by south zone cultureal organisation.the following artists are participating in it. the thala vadya cacheri in sivapalathalam.in the cacheri we played the thalam in five jathees and five gathees, because of half akshara it is not eassy to perform like this.-according to dr.T.K Murthy it is very difficult to play half akshara thala,and i appriciate mr.Harimohanan's creative talent. so please give opertunity to perform with other artist like N.Hari of AIR{mridangam} calicut Coovay Suresh{ghadam} Trivandrum vijayan{tabala} chenda payyavoor gopalan maddalam kottakkal remeshan idekka sshasi master and other thala instruments with the accoumpany of flute and violin. for more information please contact me by phone.04985 260703 ................................................................................................................................................................... Dear msakella-garu, please tell me how many thalas have13.5 beats or 54unit . From Among 108 Talas including the first 5 are Marga-talas and the remaining are Deshi-talas. And how is putting talas for that ( Really Iknow Iam a child ) but iam lucky to see great Artists and got chance to perform infrontof them and got appreciation .Iam sure that if i get a ,chaance to perform infrontof you will also satisfy.My first programme was before SWAMIGYwho is conducting thuriyam sangeetolsavamand Yesterday i got a programme of Payyanur Pain &Paliative Care society .I did it with out any financial benifit .In that programme I played mridangam and put thalam with other hand .After getting your reply Iwill uplod that programme . thank you

Last edited by [email protected] (Yesterday 02:46)
http://sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com/
Last edited by [email protected] on 11 Jun 2007, 09:25, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#26

Post by msakella »

Dear member, [email protected], Our brother-member, mridangam1 did not criticize anything against ‘Shivapalathalam’ in his post but appreciated my way of explanation. He felt happy about my way of explanation. That does not mean he is criticizing against 'Shivapalathalam’. I do not know why you taking it negatively. This is a discussion. Always discussions are needed to bring out the facts. Even while discussing one should not take things negatively. Nothing should be personal. The persons who cannot convince others only will take them negatively. Please take it sportively and positively. You are always at your liberty to bring out your version and convince others. Why don’t you try to do that? Please do so. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 03 Jan 2007, 13:45, edited 1 time in total.

bharathamuni
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#27

Post by bharathamuni »

I have observed Hari doing what he vouches. Great practicing vocalists, music instrumentalists and dancers (names have already been mentioned in the former notes) have aaproved of its genuine features. Regarding the negative or negative-looking comments, my humble feeling is that the open ones must ignore them. "Discovery" is not bringing something that did not exist hitherto; it's revealing or bringing the lesser known or unknown to 'a period', into the field of attention of others. It's like the Edison's egg story. When one does it others can always say that's already known. But, the question is, did you tavel the trabeculae to reach that?Those who speak about the period of a needle passing through several petals of lotus ...... and.... the etc. etc... & making the intricacies of taalas sound so abominable, msut be able to accept a 'half aksharakaala also' realising well that the terms 'maatra' & 'akshara kaalas' are used in reverse sense also in certain styles of peforming arts, in Kerala. If scientific discoveries can be named after the discoverer or the one adored by the discoverer, what's wrong in the name "Sivapaaal taalam'. In a wider sense, lord Siva does the ' paalana' (maintenance) of all rhythmic activities too - both in the metaphysical and physical science concepts.The logic of discovery does permit any large-hearted one to simply congradulate Hari for his "Discovery" & the name of the Taalam.
Last edited by bharathamuni on 03 Jan 2007, 18:57, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#28

Post by msakella »

Dear member, bharathamuni, Even though I am unable to make out any sense of some of the words of your post I would like to answer.
‘Percussionist Harimohan has created a new Thala structure called ‘Sivapalathalam’ is the news item brought out in ‘The Hindu’ dated 09-06-2006. They should have brought this in their news item as a ‘Discovery’. Of course, I do not know whose fault is this. As all kinds of rhythmical forms already exist in the universe there is no question of ‘CREATION’ at all of any new rhythmical form but ‘Discovery’. That is why I have mentioned that nobody can claim that he had created a new rhythmical form.
In any of my previous postings I did never write about the duration to pierce several petal leaves at all.
Irrespective of their ignorance, the relevancy should always be maintained by anybody in using the technical terms properly. If certain people are used to mean the established technical terms in reverse sense nobody can help! However, nobody has ever tried to make this so called ‘Sivapalathalam’ clear to me in all aspects.
In any of my previous postings I never raised any objection even upon its name ‘Sivapalathalam’. Let him have ‘Sivapalathalam’ or ‘Savapalathalam’. What business I do have to object?
In the annals of our music literature only 15 books have been dealt with the topic, Talaprastara and, among them, only two books, 1.Sangita Samayasara written by Parshvadeva of 13 century and 2.Gayakalochanam written by Tacchoor Singaracharya Bros., in 1902, have dealt with this topic, in which serial numbers are also furnished to 52 and 158 Talas respectively and, among them, 25 and 43 numbers respectively have been found incorrect. I have brought out all these details in my book, ‘Systematisation of Prastara Details of Deshi Talas (available in Karnatic Music Book Centre, Chennai)’ proving their correctness or otherwise through ‘NASHTA & UDDISHTA’ of each and every Tala. Thus, only these two authors have proved that they are well versed with the secrets of ‘NASHTA & UDDISHTA’ and others are not at all acquainted at all with these secrets but dared to create umpteen lists of Talas of their own fancy which facilitated to include Talas after their own names and titles like Nisshanka-tala and Sharngadeva-tala (by Sharngadeva) and Lakshmanahvaya-tala (by Bhandaru Lakshminarayana of Sangita Suryodaya). Even without having the required knowledge, Sharngadeva made a mess of ‘NASHTA & UDDISHTA’, which was even more worsened by the later editors of ‘Sangita Ratnakara’ (refer my book, ‘Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara-with a critical interpretation’ available at Karnatic Music Book Centre, Chennai). After Sharngadeva all the remaining authors have simply followed his footsteps by furnishing umpteen lists of Talas of their own fancy but without any serial numbers of their Talas furnished by them. In the same manner, every individual has every right to claim as the creator of one Tala or other but without furnishing its serial number at all and Harimohan also did the same. There is nothing wrong in it if the youngsters follow the elders.
Most unfortunately, none of the present musicians is aware that there are two kinds of rhythmical forms, 1. which can be rendered (like Simhanandana etc.) and 2. which should not be rendered (like Sharabhanandana, Mela-talas and Tiruppugazh prosodical forms etc., in which Samyuktangas are included) and that the authenticity of any rhythmical form of the universe can be proved only by its specific serial numbers.
So, by the grace of the Almighty, as a knowledgeable person of this ‘authenticity’ and unlike an ignorant person, I can congratulate Harimohan (or any other knowledgeable person who approved his demonstration), of course, with a large-heart, if any one of them can furnish the serial number of his ‘Sivapalathalam’ and define. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 26 Jan 2007, 04:41, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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#29

Post by Nick H »

Utterly unqualified to partake in this conversation but...

I have observed musicians to present, for instance, pallavis and talavadya kutcheri pieces in strange talams --- even including half beats--- certainly not included in the tables (eg of 35 and 108) that the lesser-informed among us use as reference.

I am sure that the mridangists and other laya experts on this forum could play, for demonstration, in rhythms based on any random numbers selected and suggested --- and make it sound good (there is a difference between maths and musicality, of course)!

I don't recall, on any of these occasions, any great claim to have discovered anything new.

Also--- The existence of a tala, outside the theory books, is rather dependent on there being music composed in it, isn't it?
Last edited by Guest on 04 Jan 2007, 20:03, edited 1 time in total.

[email protected]
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#30

Post by [email protected] »

`'Dear member, Kahangad T.P.Sreenivasan composed a keerthana in sivapalathalam sivasakthy ragam witch was brodcasted surya tv kairali tv geevan tv and enough students are now studing from him According to the masters sivapalathalam is best for improving thala ghana Because of having 13.5 akshara the thala is more better for thala vadya kachari
Last edited by [email protected] on 04 Jan 2007, 23:26, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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#31

Post by Nick H »

[email protected] wrote:`'Dear member, Kahangad T.P.Sreenivasan composed a keerthana in sivapalathalam sivasakthy ragam witch was brodcasted ... ...
That's one, then.

Shall we come back in a four or five decades and see if it caught on?

msakella
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#32

Post by msakella »

Dear member, nick H, Upon earth mathematics is the only subject having unambiguous and highly disciplined precision and the rhythm, which is purely of mathematics, in music also is supposed to be like that. If it is not precisive that means it is far from mathematics. There may be strange Talas but each one of them should be precisive in nature. Is there any ambiguity in the nature of any of the 35 Talas? No. In the same manner every rhythmical form, being mathematically based, is also supposed to be like that. There should not be any difference between pure mathematics and musical mathematics. Both are all the same. To tell the fact, in the universe, there are two kinds of rhythmical forms and they are 1.disciplined rhythmical form, which can be used as Tala like 35 Talas and Simhanandana-tala of 108 Talas and 2.indisciplined rhythmical form, which cannot and should not be used as Tala at all like Sharabhanandana-tala and other rhythmical forms in which Samyuktangas are included. But, this knowledge should be obtained from the topic of Talaprastara only. Only the person who is well versed in Talaprastara can properly understand this or a highly disciplined person can also understand this. That is why, Padma Vibhooshan, Sangita Kalanidhi, Dr.Sripada Pinakapani, a very knowledgeable and highly disciplined person, who is acquainted with the Sharabhanandana-tala but not with Talaprastara, had, after a long discussion, agreed that it is not a rhythmical form to be used as a Tala at all. There are many such rhythmical forms even among 108 Talas. But, people are not aware of them. Ignorance is bliss. I doubt this ‘Sivapalathalam’ also belongs to this category. That is why, till now, nobody is able to furnish the correct and precisive picture of it. After seeing this post people may come out, one after the other, with some or other picture of it, which may not be precisive. amsharma.

coolkarni

#33

Post by coolkarni »

Ignorance is bliss
In one of the early interviews with kamal hasan on TV, I heard him reply to a question
Q - what is the most difficult part in conveying the emotions on screen ?
Hands , My dear Friend , It is the two palms.They keep tripping me every now and then.One who does not need to hide them , is a blessed actor ....

Oh ! How I hide my palms in a concert .deep in my pockets .
After reading all this , I will keep them deeper.

Ignorance is bliss ... indeed.A(musically) poor man's bliss.

Dear Sarma- Sorry for this interruption.Just could not hold back.

BTW I am very curious to know what may be the approximate Percentage of an audience that understands all the complexities of Rythm on any given day - say in a jam packed MFA concert of TNS with MC-UKS...
Just curious to know whether my kind are in the majority or...:cool:

msakella
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#34

Post by msakella »

Dear moderator, coolkarni, Better to let your palms insert deeper only after ensuring yourself that there is no hole on the other end of your pockets. Please don’t misunderstand me if I tell it is less than 1% nowadays. Nowadays people are very much eager only to make easy money or fame or popularity with minimum knowledge, within minimum possible time and with minimum possible physical and mental exertion.
Acquiring deep knowledge is not that easy but a great task. Generally, while all the people remain under the control of the language, the language itself remains under the control of a very few knowledgeable people only. But, most unfortunately, even these very few knowledgeable people, instead of coming forward to enlighten the society, are running far away from their responsibilities in guiding the younger generation properly in the process of keeping our great cultural heritage in tact. Our society flourishes only when the elders truly feel their responsibilities. amsharma.

arunk
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#35

Post by arunk »

msakella wrote:To tell the fact, in the universe, there are two kinds of rhythmical forms and they are 1.disciplined rhythmical form, which can be used as Tala like 35 Talas and Simhanandana-tala of 108 Talas and 2.indisciplined rhythmical form, which cannot and should not be used as Tala at all like Sharabhanandana-tala and other rhythmical forms in which Samyuktangas are included. But, this knowledge should be obtained from the topic of Talaprastara only.
Dear msakella-garu, i know you have explained this before but please bear with my question(s).

BTW, I dont have the necessary knowledge, and am merely trying to follow this logically.

First of all, here is my undestanding of your argument for talas employing samyuktangas:
1. They employ a combination of angas but are written as one anga (sign?) - with the consititent angas on top of each other.
2. The consitituent angas are laghu, dhruta etc. and so they themselves include a beat/clap (sounded kriya?)
3. (i hope i am remembering this correctly from an earrlier post of yours) Since in a tala, each anga can have only one beat/clap, samyukanga's cannot be performed i.e. a tala containing samyukta anga cannot be performed.

Am I right? If so, while strictly by tradition (as in a tradition which has the rule that each anga can have only one beat/clap), one could argue that samyukta angas cannot be performed within that tradition, how does this make the rhythmical form tala indisciplined? If there is a repeating, rhythmic cycle, why isnt that sufficient? Why isnt that disciplined?

In fact if #3 is right, isnt the concept of samyuktanga a self-contradictory thing? I wonder why bother coming up with samyukanga as with specific internal structures like laghu-dhruta-virama?

Thanks
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Jan 2007, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#36

Post by msakella »

Dear member, arunk, As per your post you have understood all the 3 points correctly.
In fact, unless you get some acquaintance with Samyuktanga-prastara you cannot understand this implication. However, I shall try my level best to define it for you. Still if you do not understand and if you, along with some of the members of our forum, are really interested in learning this rarest topic of our music I shall try to start with a new thread ‘Talaprasrtara’ in our forum and go on posting the relevant material in it.
At the first instance I want to declare that the concept of Samyuktanga-prastara is not all self-contradictory. All the material pertaining to Talaprastara in all the treatises right from Sangita Ratnakara of Sharngadeva to Mathematical basis of the Tala System of K.Ramachandran is full of ambiguity and contradiction. To tell the truth, in this topic, Talaprastara, having precisive mathematical base, nowhere there is ambiguity or contradiction. Believe it or not, for the first time in the annals of our music literature, only by the grace of the Almighty, I could bring out many details of it with very high precision, which have never been brought out by any of my predecessors. Even now, if anybody can prove any ambiguity or contradiction of the details of my 3 books, I shall burn out all the copies of them and make a public apology to the entire music world in this respect.
There are 3 very important points in regard to the tradition of our Tala system and they are, 1.Each and every Talanga, except Kakapada, consists of the first Kriya always sounded i.e., Sashabda-kriya or sounded beat 2. Irrespective of the number of Laghus incorporated in a Tala, each Laghu should belong to the same categorywithout any deviation and 3. The duration of all the Kriyas should be one and the same without any deviation.
In Samyuktangas, for example, Laghu-druta-virama is a combination of three Angas, Laghu + Druta + Virama, which have to be written one above the other as single Anga.
As per our tradition, as there are three Talangas, we are supposed to render the starting Kriya of each of these three Talangas with a sounded beat. But, even though it is a combination of 3 Talangas, as it has to be taken as a single Talanga, only the starting Kriya of Laghu should only be sounded. Thus, as this becomes the contradictory point such rhythmical forms having such Samyuktangas should not be rendered at all. But, to the question, ‘why should we have such rhythmical forms consisting of Samyuktangas?’ you will get the answer only after learning this topic. Are you ready to learn, my dear? amsharma.

arunk
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#37

Post by arunk »

Dear msakella-garu,

I am ready to learn as to why we have samyuktangas. Since this would be by reading what you post, "i am all eyes" (as opposed to all ears) :). I also want to know why we should label them non-rhythmic, and undisciplined? Is it beyond the reason that they violate the principles of our tradition?

Thanks
Arun

msakella
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#38

Post by msakella »

Dear Admin, srkris, As our member, arunk is interested in learning this rarest topic, Talaprastara, I request you to kindly do the needful to start a new thread, Talaprastara in our forum to facilitate not only our member, arunk but also all the interested other members and all others. As this topic is particularly based on mathematics at every stage and every point there will be very high precision. This is called ‘combinatorics’ in other countries. Generally, while the required rhythmical form out of the infinite number of rhythmical forms could be obtained with the help of calculator or computer, we Indians could get them very easily through some easily accessible processes even without the help of calculator or computer. Even though these processes have never been brought out by any author of any century, fortunately enough, I have fully been blessed by the Almighty to get all these secrets in my extensive research of 40 years. As I felt it as my duty to give it to my society I have brought all these details in 3 books and even without expecting any financial help from any quarter, I have myself printed these books, though on a small scale, and pass them on to my society. Now, I again feel that another opportunity has come to me to enlighten my society to bring out this topic through this forum. Everything is the will of the Almighty and we are guided by Him. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 07 Jan 2007, 11:08, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#39

Post by msakella »

Dear member, arunk, As you wrote in your post I did never label the Samyuktanga-prastaras as non-rhythmic. They are not ‘non-rhythmic’. My words ‘disciplined and indisciplined’ also should be meant only as ‘renderable and non-renderable’ rhythmical forms. These ‘non-rhythmic or undisciplined’ rhythmical forms are also a part of the grand-total permutations obtained in the process of Prastara. But, they will not fit in the traditional limitations to use them as Talas like Tiruppugazh prosodical forms or ‘Chando-rupas’. These prosodical forms also carry different kinds of units in a cycle, which will not fit in the traditional limitations. That is why, in these Tiruppugazh prosodical forms we come across Laghus carrying varying units in the same cycle. People without having acquaintance with this Talaprastara have elevated them the Tala-stature like Sharbhanandana-tala. We will come across all these things in the forest of ‘Talaprastara’. amsharma.

Nick H
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#40

Post by Nick H »

I am very lost about this distinction. probably because because I have not given sufficient attention.

Can you help me with an example of a non-renderable, undisciplined rhythmic form?

Perhaps I must study from the beginning of your new thread.

By the way... all members can create their own threads: we do not have to wait for our moderators to do that...

rajumds
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#41

Post by rajumds »

nick , i had tried to email you thro' the link in the forum regarding the books given msakellaji. Please email me so that i can send them across to you.

sorry for the digression

msakella
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#42

Post by msakella »

Dear member, nick H, As per our tradition in Karnataka music there are 3 important points to follow in making a rhythmical form as a Tala and I have already furnished them in one of my previous posts However I shall reiterate them and they are 1.Only the first Kriya, irrespective of any Talanga, except Kakapada, must be kept sounded and all the remaining Kriyas, if any, must be soundless 2. Irrespective of the number of Laghus incorporated in a Tala, each Laghu must be of the same category without any deviation and 3. The duration of all the Kriyas must be one and the same without any deviation. All the rhythmical forms devoid of any Samyuktanga and following these above 3 rules can always be rendered as Talas and the rhythmical forms not only contradicting with these above rules but also consisting of Samyuktangas should never be rendered as Talas.
All the 35 Talas and any rhythmical form following these above rules come under the category of renderable Talas and Talas like Sharabhanandana, Tiruppugazh prosodical forms and all the rhythmical forms consisting of Samyuktangas i.e., combinations of Talangas written one above the other like Druta-virama, Laghu-virama, Laghu-druta, Laghu-druta-virama etc., come under this category of non-renderable Talas. I prefer to call them ‘non-renderable-talas’ only than ‘undisciplined-rhythmical-forms’. For example among the 32,768 varieties of rhythmical forms pertaining to 16-units - 2 1 4 1 2 2 1 1 2, the 15,047th permutation is a rhythmical form which can be taken as Tala consisting of Druta, Anudruta, Chaturashra-jati-laghu, Anudruta, Druta, Druta, Anudruta. Anudruta and Druta totally carrying 16-units in a cycle and can be named after ‘nick H-tala’ if at all you are interested and 3 3 1 1 2 5 1 - the 17,125th permutation is another rhythmical form which cannot be taken as a Tala to be rendered as it, apart from the two 1-units and one 2-units which can, of course, be rendered as two Anudrutas and one Druta, also carries two 3-units and one 5-unit, which have to be rendered as two Laghus pertaining to Trisra-jaati and one Laghu pertaining to Khanda-jaati, which is contradictory to the above 2nd traditional rule of our Tala system. This for your kind information.
Of course, I know a little of music but not the rules of our form to start a new thread in our forum on my own. That is why I have requested our Administrator, srkris to do the needful in this matter and waiting for it. amsharma.

arunk
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#43

Post by arunk »

Dear msakella-garu
msakella wrote:Dear member, arunk, As you wrote in your post I did never label the Samyuktanga-prastaras as non-rhythmic. They are not ‘non-rhythmic’. My words ‘disciplined and indisciplined’ also should be meant only as ‘renderable and non-renderable’ rhythmical forms..
I understand. Sorry for misquoting you - i sort of thought you may be meaning this but was not that sure. Also, your later post to Nick H further clarifies what I thought you may have meant (cannot rendered i.e. as in as a tala).

I will wait for the new thread to ask some related questions.

Thanks
Arun

msakella
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#44

Post by msakella »

Dear member, arunk, This is a place for the exchange of thoughts and related subjective discussions. We may not be able to meet so frequently in person for this purpose. But, taking advantage of this Internet and this forum, in particular, we can always exchange all our thoughts and have subjective discussions for the benefit of all. For this we both must thank both the Internet and this forum alike. And, always I feel it as my duty to enlighten my brothers and sisters on the subject I have already had a little more experience, being an elderly person, for the benefit of our society. Welcome, you can ask me as many number of questions as you can. OK. amsharma.

Nick H
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#45

Post by Nick H »

Many thanks for taking the time to explain.

I will have to read again and again....

msakella
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#46

Post by msakella »

Dear member, nick H, Please go through the new thread 'TALAPRASTARA' also and try to learn it. It is very useful in mathematical calculatioins of Mridangam. Please do. With best wishes, amsharma.

Nick H
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#47

Post by Nick H »

I will!

My guruji would tell you that I was very quick at understanding some things, but sadly slow at others...

Actually, before learning any mridangam I considered myself almost blind to numbers --- I am making progress.....

msakella
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#48

Post by msakella »

Dear member, nick H, When you are quick at understanding some things, you can be of the same at others also. Please try and I shall give you many tips to get through very easily if you come to me. In fact, it is easier to teach you in person. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.

[email protected]
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#49

Post by [email protected] »

Dear members please visit my sight through you can clarify the doubts sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com

[email protected]
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#50

Post by [email protected] »

Dear msakella-garu, please tell me how many thalas have13.5 beats or 54unit . From Among 108 Talas including the first 5 are Marga-talas and the remaining are Deshi-talas. And how is putting talas for that ( Really Iknow Iam a child ) but iam lucky to see great Artists and got chance to perform infrontof them and got appreciation .Iam sure that if i get a ,chaance to perform infrontof you will also satisfy. Yesterday i got a programme of Payyanur Pain &Paliative Care society .I did it with out any financial benifit .In that programme I played mridangam and put thalam with other hand .After getting your reply Iwill uplod that programme . thank you
Last edited by [email protected] on 05 Mar 2007, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

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