New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

Tālam & Layam related topics
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meena
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#1 New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

Post by meena » 09 Jun 2006, 07:09

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Last edited by meena on 06 May 2008, 10:10, edited 1 time in total.
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coolkarni
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#2

Post by coolkarni » 09 Jun 2006, 07:14

and there are guys like me who have no clue about the old thala structures !!
;) :twisted: ;) :twisted:
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vasanthakokilam
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#3

Post by vasanthakokilam » 14 Jun 2006, 13:10

Cji: Here is our opportunity to leapfrog others by adopting the new technology..( no landline, straight to cell phone ;) )
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srkris
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#4

Post by srkris » 16 Jun 2006, 01:41

No offence, but I first thought it was "SivapAthAlam" - what a name!!!

And why name thalams after persons?
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Vocalist
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#5

Post by Vocalist » 17 Jun 2006, 09:26

Phew! At least it's not called Sivapputhalam!! LOL

Speaking of which, how is the name of a thalam made? Random??
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msakella
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#6

Post by msakella » 02 Oct 2006, 14:06

Dear Sir, Already there are infinite quantity of rhythmical forms in the creation of the Almighty and each rhythmical form consists of a specific serial number. Any body can take out a rhythmical form of his choice from them and name it just like Nisshanka Sharngadeva furnished a list of 120 Talas including the last two talas of them named as Nisshanka Tala and Sharngadeva Tala but without furnishing serial number to any one of his 120 Talas. In the same manner this new Tala was also taken out from the infinite number of rhythmical forms by Mr. Harimohan and he had named it. That's all. Nobody can claim that he/she had created a new Tala. However, by any chance, can he furnish the serial number of it, at the least?.amsharma.
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arulguna
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#7

Post by arulguna » 21 Oct 2006, 14:16

Well said Amsharma!
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msakella
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#8

Post by msakella » 21 Oct 2006, 21:46

Thank you member, Mr.arulguna. amsharma.
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mridhangam
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#9

Post by mridhangam » 06 Dec 2006, 10:18

sir
What could be the Angas for that Sivapalathaalam ? can anyone throw light ? As per the report the tala contains 13 1/2 beats. kindly clarify as to how the tala is represented ?
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msakella
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#10

Post by msakella » 07 Dec 2006, 09:01

Dear member, mridhangam, In the 1st post of this thread its link of ‘Hindu’ is provided but, surprisingly, the Angas are not funished in it. According to this statement this Tala consists of 13½ i.e., 13 x 4 = 52 + 2 = 54 units. If we permute 54-units, as per the Samyuktanga-prastara of Talaprastara, we will get a total of ‘9007199254740992’ permutations. The ‘Sivapalathalam’, irrespective of its Talangas, is one among the above permutations. After seeing my post, if, by any chance, Shri Harimohanan, furnishes its serial number, which, of course, is not possible, I shall become interested in it. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 08 Dec 2006, 09:21, edited 1 time in total.
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[email protected]
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#11

Post by [email protected] » 16 Dec 2006, 22:43

sir Do you know that the sivapalathala is demonstrated in front of sree Dr moorthy 2 sree Parasala Ravi former principal of swathythirunal music college tvm 3 sree Harikumar Talam scholer sree A.S.N.Nambeesan and others The thalam perfomed by sree N.Hari sree Kovai Suresh T.V.M.Vijayan Kottakkal Remasan payyavoor Gopalan in south zone culture programme as thalavadya kachary It is not easy to perform in 5 jathi and 5 gathy like in half akshara like throwing stones
Last edited by [email protected] on 11 Jun 2007, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
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[email protected]
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#12

Post by [email protected] » 16 Dec 2006, 22:50

the angas are 1011o111 plus sangeerna chappu
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[email protected]
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#13

Post by [email protected] » 16 Dec 2006, 23:04

The sivapala thala appraciated by above scholers and the people who have seen it puting tala like chappu thala if doubt clarify with V.P.Janardhanankarivellur (vallappokam)
Last edited by [email protected] on 23 May 2007, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.
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[email protected]
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#14

Post by [email protected] » 19 Dec 2006, 23:29

Sivapalathalam’, irrespective of its Talangas, thala angas are very different 101101110 plus sankeernachapu We have enough thala with same akshara Talaangas, are very very important. Our seven thalas have 5 jathy and 5 gathy Have any seen sangeerna Jathy Dhruva thalam playing in sangeerna gathy ? But I have seen Sivapalathalam playing 81 unit Koruvai total 243 In sangerna gathy.Theory criticism need Maths and Mouth But by pratical It is not easy to Do Not only that Kahangad T.P.Sreenivasan has composed a Keerthana in Sivasakthy raga is in sivspalathala thala please discuss 1 DrT.K. Moorthy 2 Sree parasala ravi( principal swathithirunal music college retd) sree Harikumar 3 Sree Kovai suresh thank you
Last edited by [email protected] on 21 May 2007, 19:29, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#15

Post by msakella » 20 Dec 2006, 15:25

Dear brother-member, [email protected], At the first instance, you must understand my actions in a positive way. I have no intentions at all to throw even a single stone on any of my Indian brothers or sisters and I don’t need to. I am more interested in keeping our cultural heritage in tact. Generally, there will be people of two kinds, 1.doing things innocently 2. doing things wantonly. People doing things innocently can be educated to correct them. But, it is very difficult to stop people doing things wantonly to make easy fame and easy money. Instead of stopping such people, I believe and like in educating the society. In this process I always try to bring out the points, which are devoid of any ambiguity and without any bias. More over I always keep myself open for any correction.
In our Tala system, as per the tradition, the first Kriya i.e., action of any Talanga consists of a Sashabda-kriya i.e., sounded beat. Thus, each Talanga i.e., either Anudruta or Druta or Laghu or Guru or Pluta (Kakapada is fully un-sounded Talanga) consists of the first Kriya, the sounded beat and the remaining, if any, un-sounded actions and each of the Kriyas of these Talangas carry the same duration irrespective of the ‘gati’ it contains. Above all this, according to ‘Talaprastara’ every rhythmical form is already available in the universe and nobody claim any creation of any new Tala-structure. Any person who is wellversed in ‘Talaprastara’ can only understand that there are two kinds of rhythmical forms in the universe and they are 1.which can be used as Talas and 2.which cannot be used as Talas at all.
In respect of the structure of this ‘Shivapalathalam’, in Hindu, it was mentioned that it consists of 13½ . You have mentioned that Tala consists of ‘l 0 l l 0 l l l 0’ plus Sankeerna-chapu occupying 81 Mathras and total of 243. By all this has not been made clear to me. Please clarify:
(1) What do you mean by ‘Mathra’?
(2) How many units are running per each beat and what is the total number of units of these 13½ beats?
(3) As per your own version, in total, there are 6 Laghus and 3 Drutas and to which Jaati the Laghus belong and how many Kriyas are there in each Laghu and how many units are running in each Kriya of the Laghus and Drutas?
(4) What does ‘Plus Sankeerna-chapu’ mean? Does that mean to add 9 more Kriyas of Sankeerna-chapu in addition to the previous series of Talangas? What is the number of units running in each Kriya of Sankeerna-chapu?
(5) What is the serial number of this Tala? amsharma.
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[email protected]
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#16

Post by [email protected] » 20 Dec 2006, 23:24

Dear member before coming to the point I am saying sorry. I am a person insulted from my starting and up to now.
Before giving answer I have to clarify one doubt. One thisra aka talam need three aksharas . up to sankerna jathy dhruva thala need 29 akshara, so 4 matharai need for one akshara in chadurasra gathy so half akshara thalam like sivapalathalam is not coming in this list whether permutation combination is used or not.
For chappu thalams are really half akshara talas .thirupugazh thalams also come in this catigary. Next how many thalas have 13.5 aksharas, how is putting thala for that. One more thing the length between the beat must not be
equal for half akshara thalas. What about Dr Balamurali's and Sree Zakkir Hussain's half akshara thalas? I am eager about that. May I get a chance to contact them and you sir? I am ready to the upload keerthana composed and sung by sree T.P.Sreenivasan kanhangad in this thala. Waiting for your reply.
Last edited by [email protected] on 21 Dec 2006, 06:57, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#17

Post by msakella » 21 Dec 2006, 11:41

Dear brother-member, [email protected], Bygones are bygones. Don’t take the past things seriously. At first relieve of your tensions and think peacefully. I am unable to follow the wordings of your letter. Try to write again every point clearly. No hurry. I am here to clear off all your doubts. OK.amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 21 Dec 2006, 13:28, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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#18

Post by vasanthakokilam » 21 Dec 2006, 12:01

priyamhn, can you please preview your post before submitting it and make sure there is proper punctuation. Also, for whatever reason, in all your posts, words run together ( like this, 'wordsruntogether' ). All this makes it hard to read. I have edited several of your posts including the one above to the extent I can. Thanks for your understanding.
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[email protected]
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#19

Post by [email protected] » 21 Dec 2006, 18:20

there are four mathras for one akshara inchadurasra gathy I :Do :Dont thing it is not easy to clarify but i will try my best thank you:D
Last edited by [email protected] on 22 Dec 2006, 08:00, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#20

Post by msakella » 21 Dec 2006, 20:55

Dear member, [email protected], Generally, in Chaturashra-gathi 4 amsas or units or aksharas have to be pronounced in the duration of one Matra, which is almost equal to one second. This is the correct way of putting things. Try to clarify in a clear manner. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 21 Dec 2006, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
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[email protected]
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#21

Post by [email protected] » 21 Dec 2006, 22:30

You have mentioned that Tala consists of ‘l 0 l l 0 l l l 0’ plus Sankeerna-chapu occupying 81 Mathras and total of 243.In sangeerna gathi. But in Chadurasra gathi 4units=1 akshara or4mathra 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 444222 units total13.5 units
Last edited by [email protected] on 21 May 2007, 19:23, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#22

Post by msakella » 22 Dec 2006, 14:58

Dear member, [email protected], In your post No.14 you yourself have mentioned that this ‘Shivapalathalam’ carries l 0 l l 0 l l l 0 plus Sankeerna-chapu. I have taken it from you and mentioned the same in my post No.15. I did not mention anything on my own. More over, all your statements you are writing in your posts are contradictory and highly confusive. By all this I am unable to understand anything from your posts and, in such case, I cannot answer any of your questions at all. amsharma.
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mridangam1
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#23

Post by mridangam1 » 26 Dec 2006, 12:31

Dear amsharma, you have explained in a wonderfulway regarding the new, so called "sivapala thalam", which is claimed to be invented by some mridangam artist.Actually there are infite number of permutations available , and even for anybody with basic knowledge of thala structure can make large no of such thalas.As per the best of my knowledge,in karnatic, there are 7 sapta thalas,108 margathalas,72 mela kartha thalas etc.( for basic information,Refer cassets of Dr.DKMurthy).If all these thaLAS ARE DEMONSTRATED IN 5 JATIS AND AGAIN 5 GATIS, IT WOULD BE IN THOUSANDS NUMBER OF THALAS.Among these 5 melakartha thalas are consisting of 27 akshara kalas each.In that case there already exists 13 and half aakshara kalas , by 2 avarthanam.
May be the demostration of the artist will be in a unique way of his own.
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msakella
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#24

Post by msakella » 27 Dec 2006, 17:39

Dear member, mridangam1,
(1) You are telling that infinite number of permutations is available. Would you please tell me the procedure how to get the required variety of permutation from the available permutations? You are also telling that anybody, with the basic knowledge of Tala structure, can make a large number of such Talas. OK. How can one do so? What is the procedure? Would you please define it for me?
(2) Among 108 Talas the first 5 are Marga-talas and the remaining are Deshi-talas. All the 108 talas are not Marga-talas at all.
(3) In the Talangas of 72 Melakarta-talas, in many of them, the Talanga, Druta-sekhara-viramam is furnished. But, most surprisingly, I have never come across such a Talanga at all in my life. Would you kindly refer the cassettes you have told me to refer and give me the name of the treatise in which this ‘Druta-sekhara-viramam’ is furnished along with its evolution?
(4) In the news item of ‘The Hindu’ it was mentioned that ‘Shivapalatalam’ carries 13½ beats and our brother-member, [email protected] furnished the Talangas, l 0 l l 0 l l l 0 + Sankeerna-chapu, of it. I shall be happy if you tally these things and make everything of this ‘Shivapalatalam’ clear to me without any ambiguity. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 27 Dec 2006, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.
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[email protected]
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#25

Post by [email protected] » 01 Jan 2007, 14:12

dear mridangam,member
Happy new year
You said that those who have basic knowledge can do a lot.but those who have basic knowledge will not criticise simply with out knowing the content which was approved by the great artist dr. T.K murthy who knows well about other 13.5 thalas difference with sivapalathala. if you are taking the half ticket you will only reach the half way.like that the general speed 13.5 is different from 27. i got it from your answer Iam ready to upload the program which was condected in payyanur by south zone cultureal organisation.the following artists are participating in it. the thala vadya cacheri in sivapalathalam.in the cacheri we played the thalam in five jathees and five gathees, because of half akshara it is not eassy to perform like this.-according to dr.T.K Murthy it is very difficult to play half akshara thala,and i appriciate mr.Harimohanan's creative talent. so please give opertunity to perform with other artist like N.Hari of AIR{mridangam} calicut Coovay Suresh{ghadam} Trivandrum vijayan{tabala} chenda payyavoor gopalan maddalam kottakkal remeshan idekka sshasi master and other thala instruments with the accoumpany of flute and violin. for more information please contact me by phone.04985 260703 ................................................................................................................................................................... Dear msakella-garu, please tell me how many thalas have13.5 beats or 54unit . From Among 108 Talas including the first 5 are Marga-talas and the remaining are Deshi-talas. And how is putting talas for that ( Really Iknow Iam a child ) but iam lucky to see great Artists and got chance to perform infrontof them and got appreciation .Iam sure that if i get a ,chaance to perform infrontof you will also satisfy.My first programme was before SWAMIGYwho is conducting thuriyam sangeetolsavamand Yesterday i got a programme of Payyanur Pain &Paliative Care society .I did it with out any financial benifit .In that programme I played mridangam and put thalam with other hand .After getting your reply Iwill uplod that programme . thank you

Last edited by [email protected] (Yesterday 02:46)
http://sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com/
Last edited by [email protected] on 11 Jun 2007, 09:25, edited 1 time in total.
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