New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

Tālam & Layam related topics
mridhangam
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Post by mridhangam »

Mr.Bala yes you are right in the sense that 13.5 has no relevance at all. certain people like this one want to make things look complicated though it is very simple. If you go thru my post i had also found a tala counting to about 15.5 aksharas with our own basic Druva Talam . Absolutely it is possible to have any number of combinations like the one that has been created or discovered or invented or watever it is. I will give you ideas as to how to create them. Because they dont seem to have any rules at all and hence anyone and everyone can create it and then name it as anything as Akella garu has earlier pointed out. Absoloutely there is no musical significance at all in these or any other. Somehow this person seem to have come up with that tala and had the means to popularise it and made an acceptance with a few people without going through the rigours of Talaprastaras and other relevant aspects of our tradition with which our Akella Garu is well versed and only living authority. I can even think of a different line if this 13.5 has provided a different direction to the Laya aspect at least. As a general thumb rule we mridangists say that which is not available in Adi Tala is not available elsewhere. So always we try to frame the korvais or kanakkus based on adi tala and try to add-subtract to accommodate for other talas as well. Anyway over to Mr.Akellagaru for furthering the debate and arriving at a conclusion. Oh not. The conclusion is evident that this tala is not a tala according to the tenets of musical literature. Let me wait till others add their comments.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

vasanthakokilam wrote:> Since some existing CM thalas have the same beat count but different internal structures, the job is even easier to come up with something that can be, by definition, considered new but still have the same beat count as existing thalas.
This is what talaprastara does. You have the same units but it lists all the permutations with the different angas.

I think the question that is troubling you is this.

If I have 2 thalams with the same number of total beats, let's say 100 and 010. Both take 8 beats. Here, by beats, I'm referring to the external count. (I think we all need to standardise on the terms used to make this discussion more efficient).

1. How would this impact a composer?
2. Does he need to worry about this individual angas?
3. How does it affect the percussionists?


If these are some of the questions that are keeping you awake, I'm sorry I don't have the sleeping pills :)

But, if your question is can a composer use this structure to assist him, I would think yes but only if they are thinking of the structure of the thalam itself as the basis of the composition. I have a feeling most people compose their songs based on the words and bhavam and try to fit it into a Raga they like and a Adi or Rupaka thalam.

mohan
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Post by mohan »

sbala wrote:If I have 2 thalams with the same number of total beats, let's say 100 and 010. Both take 8 beats. Here, by beats, I'm referring to the external count. (I think we all need to standardise on the terms used to make this discussion more efficient).
1. How would this impact a composer?
The talam used would determine where the stresses of a line in a composition will fall. For Adi talam the first and last half of line would be roughly equally spaced while in Khanda Jhampa tala, the first half of the line is longer than the last half.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

Mohan,
Could you furnish some examples to illustrate the stress points? Do all the varnams and krithis in Adi follow this principle?
Last edited by sbala on 19 Mar 2007, 18:48, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

my 2 cents.

While one can legitimately ask what is so special about 13.5, or 12.4 etc., perhaps we should ask what is special about *each one* of the existing talas. For example, do we know what is *musically* special about miSra dhruva? How about sankIrNa matya? Or the simhananda? I dont mean to dismiss all these and the history etc. I merely ask that if one looks beyond the well known fact that they are in the annals, can one see why these falls under list of acceptable tala structure? Why/what makes these acceptable while something like this new tala is not?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 19 Mar 2007, 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

well, I can atleast give some points in favour of adi, rupakam etc..They are of a shorter duration and easier to remember and render. That is probably why most of the compositions are in these thalams.

Apart from that, if a performer does not put thalam and sings the same sahityam having 14 counts, how would we recognise if it is dhruva or ata thalam? If this can be identified, then maybe we can find a justification for having 13.5 counts. And I don't think there is anything called "existing or new" with respect to thalams. Time existed since the birth of the universe and will exist till it dies!

kalgada78
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Post by kalgada78 »

May be those Talas,which when divided by 2,3,5,7 or 9 further on,gives you a quotient of 2,3,5,7 or 9 again,is valid. Just my guess :)

Sarma.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

akalla-garu and mridangam should have better insights on this.

bala - while i am not sure if all compositions make use of tala structure in the same way, i do think that cadences of the song will usually fall on one of the angas (i.e. where you do a sounded kriya as in a slap of the hand). As an example, if a song starts "off beat" in Adi, there is a good chance it ends with a cadence at the mid-point (i.e. start of 5th akshara) or on the start of second dhrutam (start of 7th akshara). So if you say Adi vs tiSra matya, both being 8, the cadences will probably fall differently - otherwise the tala is probably not being used effectively.

As far as Adi, roopaka etc as in smaller and hence more popular - not always true. tisra Eka, catuSra Eka would take the cake then (the case for latter in other music forms is strong, but not so for carnatic). But the case against very long talas is probably better i.e. longer talas being somewhat less popular (although khaNDa aTA is very popular in varnams - not so in krithis).

Also take Adi with 8 aksharas. Again, tiSra matya is equally short (3 + 2 + 3) but this is pretty rare compared to 4+2+2. So it is not necessarily tala length

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

kalgada78 wrote:May be those Talas,which when divided by 2,3,5,7 or 9 further on,gives you a quotient of 2,3,5,7 or 9 again,is valid. Just my guess :)

Sarma.
dhruva tala gives rise to: 11 (tisra), 14 (catusra), 17 (khaNDa), 23 (miSra) and 29 (sankIRNa) aksharas. So you have 4 primes out of 5 :)

If sivapalathalam was promoted to 27, would it be better accepted, if 23 and 29 are?

Arun

sbala
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Post by sbala »

Arun,
you put it better. the case against longer thalams seems more convincing than the case for adi and rupakam.

kalgada78
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Post by kalgada78 »

Arun,
Good point there.Akella Garu or Balaji Sir should be able to throw more light on this.

Sarma.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

if sivapalathalam was promoted to 27, then it would cease to be sivapalathalam
Last edited by sbala on 19 Mar 2007, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

that could be but how about this.

Unless i am reading this wrong the 1/2 akshara in the total comes because sankIRna cApu is added - is it not?

So either you have to say that sankIrNa cApu (4.5) is the one that inherently has the 1/2 akshara count which we are allergic to
OR
that interpretation is wrong and sankIRNa cApu is really 9, in which case sivapalathalam is really 27.
OR
????

Arun

PS: BTW, i read through the justification for cApu talas and i must admit i dont get it yet.
Last edited by arunk on 19 Mar 2007, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

i see now vk made a similar point earlier asking perhaps it should be 27 instead of 13.5. Sorry - missed that.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 19 Mar 2007, 23:09, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Let me just bring certain points which have already been talked about in other threads. ( Apologies for being repetitive )

1) On the musical significance of angas, in another thread, we talked about how Arudi anchors the musical line. This is definitely true of Pallavi of RTP and true of many other compositions as well. There can be more than one Arudi for longer thalas and they usually fall on the starting beat of some angas. So, in that sense, 4 + 2 + 2 is musically different from 2 + 4 + 2. Also, in that sense, the composer/tunesmith has a responsibility that some major stress points align with these angas ( and not necessarily all angas ), thus providing a different aesthetics of songs in these two thalas. This is the major musical significance of the internal structure of the thala. Definitely a Kanda Jati triputa thala is different from a Misra Jati triputa thala ( in addition to the thala length being differnet ) and the structure matters very much since the arudi has shifted. This is the point Mohan has made as well. Using sbala's worry criteria, I do not lose sleep over that part ;)

2) Side bar: While we are at it, can someone document where the arudi(s) normally fall for the 7 major thala groups. That will be very informative. For the 5 triputa thalas, we know that it is normally on the first beat of the first drutham.

3) Having established the anga significance in the above sense, the remaining issue is, how about the other angas and what are the musical significance about them? For example, Composers do not seem to treat the beginning of the second drutham with any special musical significance. Definitely, there are songs that do use that second drutham to anchor the last couple of words but there does not seem to be any uniformity in practice or in written works on how to structure the musical compositions around it. In my various ways asking the same question, the conclusion seems to be...'You keep looking for rules.. there isn't anything there'.

4) Adding to the evidence that there may not be any musical significance is the fact that mridangists care a lot less about the various angas. For them what matters is the total length and the sub-beat. Sri. Balaji has put it in a different way but essentially confirming this in his post in this thread that every thala can be interpreted by a percussionist as an addition/subtraction from Adi.

5) Having said all this, let us see if the Sivapalathalam can be considered unique by estalishing a Arudi point to it thereby creating a unique musical aesthetic. In other words, if someone sings an RTP in Sivapalathalam, how will the pallavi be structured? That would be an artistic way of determining if there is any musical worth to this thala, wouldn't it?

priyamhn@yahoo.com
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Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

sree vasanthakokilam> just like a foolish person changing his name evey time he goes to another street of his village.)It like enough thalams we can see in some thala prastharas with same akshara but unfotunately we have no half beat thalam ( calling them Chapu-talas but they did not take them in terms of 1 ½ or 2 ½ or 3 ½ or 4 ½ and so on as they also thought that such thing makes the mathematical applications cumbersome.)that means 13.5 is not coming from CM or in this catagory . Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. Having no knowledge of the rare topic, Talaprastara, many stalwarts might have supported this )******** So Iam not going to make any change ........... (HINDU NEWS >>> Dedicated research Inspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms lnspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms likeike Ottanthullal, Shivapalatham is the result of Harimohanan's dedicated research for several years. He has also drawn on his experience as an artiste for more than three decades. "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, with specific calculations," he explains. The speciality of Shivapalathalam is that it is based on 13-and-a-half beats. According to Harimohanan,) This is the news from the hindu .I have anxiety about knowing that Sree Gurugi is the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of this Talaprastara, who is saying 13.5 is out of it (what i said is proved..... accurate) A man can take a horse to the water but 20 cant make it drink .(Now iam 50 becoming little dry ) thank you
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 21 Mar 2007, 07:20, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

Vk,
This is what I'm trying to get at. Just like how we are able to establish the raga of a composition without any doubt , you should be able to identify the thalam without any ambiguity with the performer not putting the thalam. If we can come up with the rules to identify the thalam in such a scenario, that would be very helpful.

mohan
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Post by mohan »

sbala wrote:Mohan,
Could you furnish some examples to illustrate the stress points? Do all the varnams and krithis in Adi follow this principle?
I don't know if evey single krithi follows this rule but it is generally true!

Take these popular Thyagaraja krithis for example:
Banturiti kolu, Hamsanadham - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ko'
Raghunayaka, Hamsadhwani - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ka'
Chakkani raja, Kharaharapriya - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ja'

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

As RTPs are partly an 'exercise in difficulty' can they not be in any arbitrary talam structure? A challenge to the accompanists indeed --- but is that not part of the carnatic 'game'?

mohan
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Post by mohan »

Indeed the pallavi is a game. If you haven't already, listen to the lec-dem by TRS at http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=36010#p36010

If you look at the following posts there, you can see there is some confusion as to what talam one of the pallavis is set to.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

mohan wrote:Take these popular Thyagaraja krithis for example:
Banturiti kolu, Hamsanadham - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ko'
Raghunayaka, Hamsadhwani - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ka'
Chakkani raja, Kharaharapriya - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ja'
I'm not convinced that just an emphasis on the midpoint or first Drutam is "theoritically" enough to identify it conclusively as Adi thalam. May be you can use it to differentiate from Trisra Jathi Matya and the other popular thalams. For instance, the following thalams (not used at all)
1. 44
2. 4211
3. 2222

could also have an emphasis at the same point. Maybe if there were emphasis on both the 5th and 7th beats at different points in the song and not on the other beats then we could possibly conclude it is Adi. Shouldn't we have the same kind of rigor in thalams as in ragas? Something that sets it apart from others.
Last edited by sbala on 20 Mar 2007, 15:26, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

i think a syllable falling on the 7th beat is not uncommon for Adi. I think the 5th beat cadence/stress is more common probably because it is the midpoint. I would guess that if you probably look at the composition as a whole you will find stresspoints on both 5th and 7th beat.

Bala - 44, 2222 arent they techinically not correct as they should reduce to just 4 and 2?

Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

also i think not all versions of cakkani raja have that initial stress on the 5th beat but I have heard it both ways. In any case in one of the books i have the "ja" falls before 5th beat, but mu of margamu falls on the 7th beat - sort of like

; cakkani raja | ; marga | muNTaka ||

(2-kalai of course)

Arun

sbala
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Post by sbala »

Arun,
there is nothing technically incorrect with 44 (2 chaturasra laghus) or 2222 (4 drutams) though I wouldn't certainly expect people to compose or perform in those thalams. I think if a song has stress on the 5th and 7th beat at some points in the composition, (not always) then it would be safe to call it Adi thalam provided it is 8 units. But, if it never stresses one of those beats, then I can put the thalam in more than one way. It's analogous to characteristic phrases of the raga. Anyway, I don't think all this rambling from me is of any help as percussionists seem to care only about the total number of aksharas making the angas meaningless. If only some of the composers in this forum can come to our help and let us know their thoughts .

arunk
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Post by arunk »

right - if portions of the composition (i.e. pallavi, anupallavi) etc. is a multiple of 8, then 44; 2222 are valid.

I may be wrong but I think you may be taking the view of percussionists paying attention to only total # of aksharas a bit too far. That applies more during tani. During the krithi, they must pay attention to the important stress points and hence indirectly to angas.

Of course during krithi and at end of tani they must pay attention to the take-off point (i.e. for krithis that dont begin on samam) so that the refrain at end of a tala cycle, and also the korvai of the tani ends at the precise point of the tala cycle.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Mar 2007, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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Post by sbala »

yes Arun, I meant only the thani.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

ok. i thought we were talking about musical significances of angas in a tala. They dont mean as much during korvais in tani (mainly because i think korvais employ various gatis in way that makes it impossible to adhere to internal structure)

Arun

sbala
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Post by sbala »

yeah, but "impossible" is too strong a word. Maybe nobody tried it and everyone was taught to play korvais one way. And I dont think playing different gathis is a requirement, it is just an option.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

that i dont know. mridangam experts would obviously have more insight

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

arunk wrote:I may be wrong but I think you may be taking the view of percussionists paying attention to only total # of aksharas a bit too far. That applies more during tani. During the krithi, they must pay attention to the important stress points and hence indirectly to angas.
msakeellaji has stated before in no uncertain terms the following.

1) Stress points and Angas do not have much to do with each other ( exception being arudi )
2) In CM tradition, mridangists do not necessarily indicate angas with their strokes
3) In CM tradition, mridangists do not necessarily indicate the beginning of the thala cycle. In his own funny way, he said that we do not fall over in joy or jubliation on reaching the samam ( paraphrasing ) :)

I think what Arun is referring to is the (vague) notion people use 'pAttukku vAsikkanum' ( play for the song ). Meaning, the cadences and strokes are appropriate for the song and follow the song structure. If the composition/tune does not have any conformity to the anga structure as a rule, then even ''pAttukku vAsikkira' style would not align with the angas.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

i would like to think that every occurance of an anga doesnt matter equally every time. They are just available as potential stress points and anchors which can be used as a composer deems fit. Perhaps their position in the tala cycle (e.g. mid point or a tail-end dhrutam) may decide how they can be used rather than their mere presence. For example in dhruva and matya talas, the cycle ends in a potentially lengthy anga the laghu. Also, in both, the mid-point of the cycle falls in the middle of an anga. I am guessing that would make the usage of the angas as stress points "different" and not as how we are used to with Adi. Same with aTA (no mid point at start of anga) although it has the dhrutam ending like Adi. Also if you compare between roopaka tala "official" (dhrutam + laghu) vs 2 cycles of rUpaka cApu, i guess the latter could allows different (and maybe better?) stress points - it now allows for a mid-point and also beat at the end for the cycle for a refrain.

Of course all of this is wild conjecture on top of a yet-to-be-validated hypothesis that stress points are better served at start of angas :)

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Mar 2007, 23:49, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, Even our fore-fathers thought that it is always healthy to correlate even our Deshadi, Madhyadi and Chapu-talas, which are mostly used in folk-music, with our general talas of our Karnataka music having a scientific base and thus Deshadi and Madhyadi-talas are linked with our Adi-tala and the Chapu-talas used with only two beats of 3, 5, 7 & 9 units with Trisra-eka, Trisra-rupaka, Trisra-triputa and Khanda-triputa respectively. Thus, we do not have a Tala without a scientific base. If you bring this Sivapalathalam also under this scientific base proving its authenticity of origin with its specific serial number. In this respect you can get the help of our brother-member, sbala who have already learnt much of our Talaprastara. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Adi tala often falls so naturally into two halves that, in my ignorance of the language, and often even the song title, I can get confused and find my self half a cycle off-set to those who are keeping talam corrrectly. Embarrassing but true.

There seem, to my ear, to be two distinctive patterns in three-beat songs.

One follows the 1-2-3 tisra pattern so familiar to the Western ear, and you can almost hear the words ThaKiTha in it.

The other follows the 1-2-1-2-3-4 and can be hard for the western ear (mine at least!) to follow.

Listening to a song and putting 2 claps, 1 wave rupaka talam it is sometimes hard to feel a connection. I find that often, put chatusra jati rupaka talam and the rhythmic pattern is revealed! (the six beats have to be put in the time of one cycle)

In neither case does the midpoint seem of significance, unless considering doubling the speed.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

nick,

i dont how much of a significance this is but regarding the mid-point, I was sort of contemplating along the following lines (based on my admittedly very limited experience):

Take the pallavi one of the songs in rUpaka tALa i have learned:
sItamma mAyamma
SrIrAmuDu mA(ku)taNDri

if put as 2+4 (beat,wave+laghu) then 1st line (sItamma mAyamma) above takes one 2+4 cycle, and second line as one 2+4 cycle. If put as 1+2/1+1+1 (beat+beat+wave), then of course 1st line takes 2 such cycles, and the 2nd line takes 2 more. In this second approach, at least the way I learned it, sItamma is one cycle, mAyamma is another cycle. Similarly SrIrAmuDU is one cycle (the way i learned it this word starts after a pause), and mAkutANDri is another cycle.

So with the cApu style each word is in its own mini cycle, and the long syllable mA of the second words lines up with the beat i.e. stress/emphasis at the start of the second-mini cycle.

In the first approach the emphasis points dont line up like this. Of course, I am not saying that makes it bad - it is just different. But i do wonder whether in this case the structure lend better to the cApu style?

In another rUpaka tALA song learnt "Sobhillu saptaswara" also, i find similar division and the elaborate sangatis on the second word anchoring on beats of the capu ( sa... ptaa.. swara.. for 1 + 1+ 1) seem for some reason to have a nice effect.

Although perhaps I am reading too much and it wont make an ounce of difference if they occur inside the laghu (as the last 3 finger counts). I wont be surprised if there are rUpaka tALa examples which run completely counter to my examples above :).

Anyway just wanted to clarify further as to why i thought the mid-point may offer some extra possibilities.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 22 Mar 2007, 00:06, edited 1 time in total.

priyamhn@yahoo.com
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Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

.com
Member

Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

sree vasanthakokilam> just like a foolish person changing his name evey time he goes to another street of his village.)It like enough thalams we can see in some thala prastharas with same akshara but unfotunately we have no half beat thalam ( calling them Chapu-talas but they did not take them in terms of 1 ½ or 2 ½ or 3 ½ or 4 ½ and so on as they also thought that such thing makes the mathematical applications cumbersome.)that means 13.5 is not coming from CM or in this catagory . Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. Having no knowledge of the rare topic, Talaprastara, many stalwarts might have supported this )*** So Iam not going to make any change in sivapalathalam wich was derived from the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions .......... (HINDU NEWS >>> Dedicated research Inspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms lnspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms likeike Ottanthullal, Shivapalatham is the result of Harimohanan's dedicated research for several years. He has also drawn on his experience as an artiste for more than three decades. "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, with specific calculations," he explains. The speciality of Shivapalathalam is that it is based on 13-and-a-half beats. According to Harimohanan,) This is the news from the hindu .I have anxiety about knowing that Sree Gurugi is the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of this Talaprastara, who is saying 13.5 is out of it (what i said is proved..... accurate) A man can take a horse to the water but 20 cant make it drink .(Now iam 50 becoming little dry ) thank you

Last edited by priya
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 09 Apr 2007, 10:49, edited 1 time in total.

priyamhn@yahoo.com
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Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

Sree vasanthakokilam Bharatmuni said " I have observed Hari doing what he vouches. Great practicing vocalists, music instrumentalists and dancers (names have already been mentioned in the former notes) have aaproved of its genuine features.Regarding the negative or negative-looking comments, my humble feeling is that the open ones must ignore them. "Discovery" is not bringing something that did not exist hitherto; it's revealing or bringing the lesser known or unknown to 'a period', into the field of attention of others. It's like the Edison's egg story. When one does it others can always say that's already known (like pathalathalam ) . But, the question is, did you tavel the trabeculae to reach that?Those who speak about the period of a needle passing through several petals of lotus ...... and.... the etc. etc... & making the intricacies of taalas sound so abominable, msut be able to accept a 'half aksharakaala also' .)Hindusthani Sopana style music keraliya thala vadyams no o5 video (http://sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com/ ) the Great art Kadhakali Ottam tullal Kadhak Odisi etc are not having tha methord like CM but exalted .Iam very happy to see that 2.5 3.5 4.5 akshara is also exated in cm .We have already 9 (sankeernajathy aka thalam or other thalams having same beat )If we play 9+4.5 means What happen ? .Like(9 is our member 4.5 is our member so we have to wecome both....
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 22 Mar 2007, 18:10, edited 1 time in total.

ram
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:48

Post by ram »

Based on the (carnatic) songs I have heard, I think the significance of mid-point (arudi) is for pallavis (in RTPs) and not for kritis. There are so many kritis that do not end or give a stress just after the mid-point. Of course, I don't rules of how kritis are composed and hence can't vouch for the authenticity of the above observation.

In the hindustani songs I have heard, the stress seems to be on end-points (ending at the mid-point of the tala cycle) with a bit of lenience on the starting point(s). But again, I haven't heard much of hindustani and may be different kinds of compositions there have different rules.

arunk
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

ram,

The mid point is definitely very significant in RTP in a special way - i didnt mean to apply the same to krithis. In fact TRS in a lec-dem specially demonstrates how cakkani rAja would be sung as a pallavi - to make the point that mid-point/arudi doesnt mean much in krithis and dont have to be emphasized in krithis like so for RTPs.

But i was thinking of some more examples of rUpaka tALa. Even lambOdara the first gItam we all learn, which is put in catuSra rUpaka style, has many (but not all) lines which are split internally as 3+3:
SrI gaNanAta (3) + sindura varna (3)
karuNa sAgara (3) + karivadana (3)
lambOdhara (3) lakumikara (3)
ambAsutha (3) amaravinuta (3)
siddhacAraNa (3) gaNasEvita (3)

(There are 3 lines which dont split this way)

Also take miSra jhampa put as 4 cycles of khanDa cApu. Atleast in sIta kalyANa (the way i learnt it), many of the lines themselves are subdivided internally into 2 halfs where each take 2 cycles of khanDa cApu:

sIta kalyANa (2) + vaibOgamE (2)
rAma kalyANA (2) + vaibOgamE (2)

pavanajA stuti pAtra (2) + pAvana carItra (2)
ravi sOma pavanEtra (2) + ramaNiya gAtra (2)

bhaktajana paripAla (2) + bharitaSarajAla (2)
bhukthimuktidalIla (2) + bhUlOka pAla (2)
etc.

I havent checked all the lines but this atleast seems to show a tangible pattern. Of course i dont know how much of a trend i.e. among the entire sample set of krithis and so this is just food for thought. Perhaps composers can pitch in.

Perhaps the above is an outcome of poetrical meter and (wild speculation starts here)possibly a natural tendency in us to think in halves/doubles and thus a tendency to utilize the mid-point (if available) to our advantage. For example, pallavi is 2 lines, anupallavi is 2 lines and within each we look for 2 halfs etc. etc. Even songs with miSra cApu, khaNDa cApu i have heard that most lines will take even numbers (2 or 4 cycles) - i dont know how true it is. This same tendency to think in halves/doubles coulld the one that makes catuSra gati (i.e power of 2 and thus amenable to halving) seem most natural to us and being most common in use.

Arun

ram
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:48

Post by ram »

Arun,

Is the TRS lec dem you are talking about available for listening/download somewhere?

Thanks,
Ram

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Post by arunk »

Ram,

I dont remember from where I got it but i do think it was as a download from the internet. I also vaguely remember people referring to aspects of it here.

If it is not already available somewhere, I can make it available for download.

Arun

priyamhn@yahoo.com
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Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

sreegurugy maskella (inthe64post)said that
Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. will you please clarify howmany aksharas for that rair thalam
.thing you can clarify thank you sirI
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 13 Jun 2007, 07:54, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, Which rare Tala do you mean I am unable to make out? In the annals of our music literature, I did never find such a Tala like Sharabhanandana. But, the rhythmical form of Sharabhanandana consisting of 24 Talangas and 79 Kriyas in Chaturashra-gati/nadai fits in Talaprastara and, if we try, we can get its serial number and its authenticity as a rhythmical form as well even though it should not be rendered as a Tala. And the number of Kriyas vary if we render it in other Gatis/nadais. Thus, even though no other such rhythmical form has ever been brought out and named after, it is being treated as a rare Tala.
But, Sivapalatalam, said to have been consisted of 13 ½ Kriyas, is also being treated as a rare Tala by you as you yourself have brought it out fondly. If it consists of 13 ½ Kriyas you are compelled to render each Kriya in Chaturashra-gati/nadai only and in such case it consists of (13 ½ x 4 = ) 54 Aksharas. And if you want to prove its authenticity even as a rhythmical form, you should only furnish its serial number(s) and tell how many Aksharas it carries in each Avarta if it is rendered in other Gatis/nadais. Everybody is aware that no fractions are allowed at all in furnishing numbers unless we need them for a specific purpose and in the same manner no fractions are allowed in rendering Kriyas. amsharma.

priyamhn@yahoo.com
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Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

Everybody is aware that no fractions are allowed at all in furnishing numbers unless we need them for a specific purpose and in the same manner no fractions are allowed in rendering Kriyas. amsharma.(If we are playing 27 thisram or other gathis IN ONE AVARTHANAM what is wrong in it ) If it is right gathy is possible .13.5 is one ghanda jathy thripuda plus one sankeerna chappu .so both two thalam is existing in CM putting thalam is different (folk traditional style of ottam thullal) that is why sivapalathalam is different .If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music,KINDLY RE
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 20 Jun 2007, 06:59, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, There is nothing wrong in ‘playing 27
Trisram or other Gathis in one Avartam’. You are at liberty to play as you like but in a disciplined manner. As per your version – one Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine (9) Kriyas in an Avarta plus one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries nine (9) Kriyas in another Avarta totaling to 18 Kriyas. As all are aware, mainly, there are five Gatis, Trisra, Chaturashra, Khanda, Mishra and Sankeerna Gatis carrying 3, 4, 5, 7 & 9 units respectively per each Kriya. If these Gatis are applied to this Tala carrying 18 Kriyas in each Avarta the total units are 18 x 3 = 54, 72, 90, 126 & 162 units respectively. Now, choose one among them and tell me how many units are running in each Avarta of your Shivapalatalam in a clear and disciplined manner. No Tala ever disappears and simply vanishes in thin air. We stop using them lest spilling out our own beans. There are thousands of Talas which we have stopped using them having become in-efficient day by day. That’s all. amsharma.

priyamhn@yahoo.com
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Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

sir In the same speed Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine in other words 36units and the one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries 18 units (2speed) that means If both thalams putting together and playing we need how many units for each gathy pl clarify................... (2)If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, pl give reply for this and how can you help me also for popularaising this rair folk thalam sir
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 20 Jun 2007, 19:37, edited 1 time in total.

priyamhn@yahoo.com
Posts: 40
Joined: 12 Dec 2006, 23:02

Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

sivapalathalam wrote:sir In the same speed Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine in other words 36units and the one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries 18 units (2speed) that means If both thalams putting together and playing we need how many units for each gathy pl clarify................... (2)
If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing.
My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, pl give reply for this and how can you help me also for popularaising this rair folk thalam sir

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, In your previous post you have written that the Shivapalathalam is the combination of two Talas, Khanda-jaaati Triputa and Sankeerna-chapu totaling to 18 Kriyas. As per our Shastra all these 18 Kriyas should consist of the same duration. But, now, you are telling that the Khanda-jaati Triputa consists of 36-units and Sankeerna-chapu carries only 18-units. This is like a person having two hands but with different lengths, which is awkward and in-disciplined. There is nothing wrong in popularizing the Folk Talas and, of course, it is our duty to save them from extinction. But, while doing so, you should also try to properly keep their identity. We should not try to mix them with our classical Talas if some problems crop up. Unless I have the detailed knowledge of all your Talas either Folk or Classical Talas I may not be able to help you in any manner. amsharma.

priyamhn@yahoo.com
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Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

sair if we are seaing 176 people we can get one like this .how can i kill him. one more doubt is it possible to play 5gathys for sankeerna chapu

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, I did not and need not tell you to kill your bosom friend whom you like very much. But, don’t compel others to love him and bear with him like you do. Playing 5 Gatis to Sankeerna-chapu depends upon the duration you give to each Kriya. If that duration accommodates you to fit in the Gati you require you can have it as well. But, hope you will try only one Gati at a time but not the combination of all the Gatis together for God’s sake. amsharma.

priyamhn@yahoo.com
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Post by priyamhn@yahoo.com »

http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s31priyamhn&r=83 sir iam in polnd conducting thala vadyakachari 20stages igot ,appriciation from many great artsts of europe including great woodstok festivel. i have given answers to their quistions about sivapalathalam and advised them to come to the foram for clarifing their doubts in carnatc music because i know what i am knowing and not noing befor iam reaching the site meter was 1% in europe now can seee how much they like our music and sivapalathalam than us. other thing i did i plaid athithalam and its 5 gathis, from sankerna to sankernatisram that means 27 unitsfor 4beats then shose the connection of sivapalathalam thericaly .everithing easy but pracicaly ..... i got the healp of kerala traditional artist like sree payyavoor narayanamarar .i like not only carnatic music but also hindusthani and kerala style .in the foam i have sean our very very great artists like...... they are mixing thavil chollu annd chanda chollu if that is true why can't a person like me who is a beginer ???.'if thinging about mridanga we canot think with out their name pl advise to them sir
Last edited by priyamhn@yahoo.com on 15 Aug 2009, 03:41, edited 1 time in total.

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