New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

Tālam & Layam related topics
sbala
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#101

Post by sbala » 20 Mar 2007, 19:34

yes Arun, I meant only the thani.
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arunk
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#102

Post by arunk » 20 Mar 2007, 19:40

ok. i thought we were talking about musical significances of angas in a tala. They dont mean as much during korvais in tani (mainly because i think korvais employ various gatis in way that makes it impossible to adhere to internal structure)

Arun
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sbala
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#103

Post by sbala » 20 Mar 2007, 19:47

yeah, but "impossible" is too strong a word. Maybe nobody tried it and everyone was taught to play korvais one way. And I dont think playing different gathis is a requirement, it is just an option.
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arunk
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#104

Post by arunk » 20 Mar 2007, 19:53

that i dont know. mridangam experts would obviously have more insight
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vasanthakokilam
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#105

Post by vasanthakokilam » 20 Mar 2007, 22:22

arunk wrote:I may be wrong but I think you may be taking the view of percussionists paying attention to only total # of aksharas a bit too far. That applies more during tani. During the krithi, they must pay attention to the important stress points and hence indirectly to angas.
msakeellaji has stated before in no uncertain terms the following.

1) Stress points and Angas do not have much to do with each other ( exception being arudi )
2) In CM tradition, mridangists do not necessarily indicate angas with their strokes
3) In CM tradition, mridangists do not necessarily indicate the beginning of the thala cycle. In his own funny way, he said that we do not fall over in joy or jubliation on reaching the samam ( paraphrasing ) :)

I think what Arun is referring to is the (vague) notion people use 'pAttukku vAsikkanum' ( play for the song ). Meaning, the cadences and strokes are appropriate for the song and follow the song structure. If the composition/tune does not have any conformity to the anga structure as a rule, then even ''pAttukku vAsikkira' style would not align with the angas.
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arunk
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#106

Post by arunk » 20 Mar 2007, 23:48

i would like to think that every occurance of an anga doesnt matter equally every time. They are just available as potential stress points and anchors which can be used as a composer deems fit. Perhaps their position in the tala cycle (e.g. mid point or a tail-end dhrutam) may decide how they can be used rather than their mere presence. For example in dhruva and matya talas, the cycle ends in a potentially lengthy anga the laghu. Also, in both, the mid-point of the cycle falls in the middle of an anga. I am guessing that would make the usage of the angas as stress points "different" and not as how we are used to with Adi. Same with aTA (no mid point at start of anga) although it has the dhrutam ending like Adi. Also if you compare between roopaka tala "official" (dhrutam + laghu) vs 2 cycles of rUpaka cApu, i guess the latter could allows different (and maybe better?) stress points - it now allows for a mid-point and also beat at the end for the cycle for a refrain.

Of course all of this is wild conjecture on top of a yet-to-be-validated hypothesis that stress points are better served at start of angas :)

Arun
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msakella
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#107

Post by msakella » 21 Mar 2007, 17:34

Dear member, [email protected], Even our fore-fathers thought that it is always healthy to correlate even our Deshadi, Madhyadi and Chapu-talas, which are mostly used in folk-music, with our general talas of our Karnataka music having a scientific base and thus Deshadi and Madhyadi-talas are linked with our Adi-tala and the Chapu-talas used with only two beats of 3, 5, 7 & 9 units with Trisra-eka, Trisra-rupaka, Trisra-triputa and Khanda-triputa respectively. Thus, we do not have a Tala without a scientific base. If you bring this Sivapalathalam also under this scientific base proving its authenticity of origin with its specific serial number. In this respect you can get the help of our brother-member, sbala who have already learnt much of our Talaprastara. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.
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Nick H
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#108

Post by Nick H » 21 Mar 2007, 21:18

Adi tala often falls so naturally into two halves that, in my ignorance of the language, and often even the song title, I can get confused and find my self half a cycle off-set to those who are keeping talam corrrectly. Embarrassing but true.

There seem, to my ear, to be two distinctive patterns in three-beat songs.

One follows the 1-2-3 tisra pattern so familiar to the Western ear, and you can almost hear the words ThaKiTha in it.

The other follows the 1-2-1-2-3-4 and can be hard for the western ear (mine at least!) to follow.

Listening to a song and putting 2 claps, 1 wave rupaka talam it is sometimes hard to feel a connection. I find that often, put chatusra jati rupaka talam and the rhythmic pattern is revealed! (the six beats have to be put in the time of one cycle)

In neither case does the midpoint seem of significance, unless considering doubling the speed.
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arunk
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#109

Post by arunk » 22 Mar 2007, 00:03

nick,

i dont how much of a significance this is but regarding the mid-point, I was sort of contemplating along the following lines (based on my admittedly very limited experience):

Take the pallavi one of the songs in rUpaka tALa i have learned:
sItamma mAyamma
SrIrAmuDu mA(ku)taNDri

if put as 2+4 (beat,wave+laghu) then 1st line (sItamma mAyamma) above takes one 2+4 cycle, and second line as one 2+4 cycle. If put as 1+2/1+1+1 (beat+beat+wave), then of course 1st line takes 2 such cycles, and the 2nd line takes 2 more. In this second approach, at least the way I learned it, sItamma is one cycle, mAyamma is another cycle. Similarly SrIrAmuDU is one cycle (the way i learned it this word starts after a pause), and mAkutANDri is another cycle.

So with the cApu style each word is in its own mini cycle, and the long syllable mA of the second words lines up with the beat i.e. stress/emphasis at the start of the second-mini cycle.

In the first approach the emphasis points dont line up like this. Of course, I am not saying that makes it bad - it is just different. But i do wonder whether in this case the structure lend better to the cApu style?

In another rUpaka tALA song learnt "Sobhillu saptaswara" also, i find similar division and the elaborate sangatis on the second word anchoring on beats of the capu ( sa... ptaa.. swara.. for 1 + 1+ 1) seem for some reason to have a nice effect.

Although perhaps I am reading too much and it wont make an ounce of difference if they occur inside the laghu (as the last 3 finger counts). I wont be surprised if there are rUpaka tALa examples which run completely counter to my examples above :).

Anyway just wanted to clarify further as to why i thought the mid-point may offer some extra possibilities.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 22 Mar 2007, 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
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[email protected]
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#110

Post by [email protected] » 22 Mar 2007, 09:01

.com
Member

Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

sree vasanthakokilam> just like a foolish person changing his name evey time he goes to another street of his village.)It like enough thalams we can see in some thala prastharas with same akshara but unfotunately we have no half beat thalam ( calling them Chapu-talas but they did not take them in terms of 1 ½ or 2 ½ or 3 ½ or 4 ½ and so on as they also thought that such thing makes the mathematical applications cumbersome.)that means 13.5 is not coming from CM or in this catagory . Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. Having no knowledge of the rare topic, Talaprastara, many stalwarts might have supported this )*** So Iam not going to make any change in sivapalathalam wich was derived from the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions .......... (HINDU NEWS >>> Dedicated research Inspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms lnspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms likeike Ottanthullal, Shivapalatham is the result of Harimohanan's dedicated research for several years. He has also drawn on his experience as an artiste for more than three decades. "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, with specific calculations," he explains. The speciality of Shivapalathalam is that it is based on 13-and-a-half beats. According to Harimohanan,) This is the news from the hindu .I have anxiety about knowing that Sree Gurugi is the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of this Talaprastara, who is saying 13.5 is out of it (what i said is proved..... accurate) A man can take a horse to the water but 20 cant make it drink .(Now iam 50 becoming little dry ) thank you

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[email protected]
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#111

Post by [email protected] » 22 Mar 2007, 13:41

Sree vasanthakokilam Bharatmuni said " I have observed Hari doing what he vouches. Great practicing vocalists, music instrumentalists and dancers (names have already been mentioned in the former notes) have aaproved of its genuine features.Regarding the negative or negative-looking comments, my humble feeling is that the open ones must ignore them. "Discovery" is not bringing something that did not exist hitherto; it's revealing or bringing the lesser known or unknown to 'a period', into the field of attention of others. It's like the Edison's egg story. When one does it others can always say that's already known (like pathalathalam ) . But, the question is, did you tavel the trabeculae to reach that?Those who speak about the period of a needle passing through several petals of lotus ...... and.... the etc. etc... & making the intricacies of taalas sound so abominable, msut be able to accept a 'half aksharakaala also' .)Hindusthani Sopana style music keraliya thala vadyams no o5 video (http://sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com/ ) the Great art Kadhakali Ottam tullal Kadhak Odisi etc are not having tha methord like CM but exalted .Iam very happy to see that 2.5 3.5 4.5 akshara is also exated in cm .We have already 9 (sankeernajathy aka thalam or other thalams having same beat )If we play 9+4.5 means What happen ? .Like(9 is our member 4.5 is our member so we have to wecome both....
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ram
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#112

Post by ram » 23 Mar 2007, 09:33

Based on the (carnatic) songs I have heard, I think the significance of mid-point (arudi) is for pallavis (in RTPs) and not for kritis. There are so many kritis that do not end or give a stress just after the mid-point. Of course, I don't rules of how kritis are composed and hence can't vouch for the authenticity of the above observation.

In the hindustani songs I have heard, the stress seems to be on end-points (ending at the mid-point of the tala cycle) with a bit of lenience on the starting point(s). But again, I haven't heard much of hindustani and may be different kinds of compositions there have different rules.
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arunk
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#113

Post by arunk » 23 Mar 2007, 20:03

ram,

The mid point is definitely very significant in RTP in a special way - i didnt mean to apply the same to krithis. In fact TRS in a lec-dem specially demonstrates how cakkani rAja would be sung as a pallavi - to make the point that mid-point/arudi doesnt mean much in krithis and dont have to be emphasized in krithis like so for RTPs.

But i was thinking of some more examples of rUpaka tALa. Even lambOdara the first gItam we all learn, which is put in catuSra rUpaka style, has many (but not all) lines which are split internally as 3+3:
SrI gaNanAta (3) + sindura varna (3)
karuNa sAgara (3) + karivadana (3)
lambOdhara (3) lakumikara (3)
ambAsutha (3) amaravinuta (3)
siddhacAraNa (3) gaNasEvita (3)

(There are 3 lines which dont split this way)

Also take miSra jhampa put as 4 cycles of khanDa cApu. Atleast in sIta kalyANa (the way i learnt it), many of the lines themselves are subdivided internally into 2 halfs where each take 2 cycles of khanDa cApu:

sIta kalyANa (2) + vaibOgamE (2)
rAma kalyANA (2) + vaibOgamE (2)

pavanajA stuti pAtra (2) + pAvana carItra (2)
ravi sOma pavanEtra (2) + ramaNiya gAtra (2)

bhaktajana paripAla (2) + bharitaSarajAla (2)
bhukthimuktidalIla (2) + bhUlOka pAla (2)
etc.

I havent checked all the lines but this atleast seems to show a tangible pattern. Of course i dont know how much of a trend i.e. among the entire sample set of krithis and so this is just food for thought. Perhaps composers can pitch in.

Perhaps the above is an outcome of poetrical meter and (wild speculation starts here)possibly a natural tendency in us to think in halves/doubles and thus a tendency to utilize the mid-point (if available) to our advantage. For example, pallavi is 2 lines, anupallavi is 2 lines and within each we look for 2 halfs etc. etc. Even songs with miSra cApu, khaNDa cApu i have heard that most lines will take even numbers (2 or 4 cycles) - i dont know how true it is. This same tendency to think in halves/doubles coulld the one that makes catuSra gati (i.e power of 2 and thus amenable to halving) seem most natural to us and being most common in use.

Arun
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ram
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#114

Post by ram » 25 Mar 2007, 22:14

Arun,

Is the TRS lec dem you are talking about available for listening/download somewhere?

Thanks,
Ram
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arunk
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#115

Post by arunk » 25 Mar 2007, 23:05

Ram,

I dont remember from where I got it but i do think it was as a download from the internet. I also vaguely remember people referring to aspects of it here.

If it is not already available somewhere, I can make it available for download.

Arun
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[email protected]
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#116

Post by [email protected] » 12 Jun 2007, 09:27

sreegurugy maskella (inthe64post)said that
Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. will you please clarify howmany aksharas for that rair thalam
.thing you can clarify thank you sirI
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msakella
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#117

Post by msakella » 12 Jun 2007, 15:34

Dear brother-member, [email protected], Which rare Tala do you mean I am unable to make out? In the annals of our music literature, I did never find such a Tala like Sharabhanandana. But, the rhythmical form of Sharabhanandana consisting of 24 Talangas and 79 Kriyas in Chaturashra-gati/nadai fits in Talaprastara and, if we try, we can get its serial number and its authenticity as a rhythmical form as well even though it should not be rendered as a Tala. And the number of Kriyas vary if we render it in other Gatis/nadais. Thus, even though no other such rhythmical form has ever been brought out and named after, it is being treated as a rare Tala.
But, Sivapalatalam, said to have been consisted of 13 ½ Kriyas, is also being treated as a rare Tala by you as you yourself have brought it out fondly. If it consists of 13 ½ Kriyas you are compelled to render each Kriya in Chaturashra-gati/nadai only and in such case it consists of (13 ½ x 4 = ) 54 Aksharas. And if you want to prove its authenticity even as a rhythmical form, you should only furnish its serial number(s) and tell how many Aksharas it carries in each Avarta if it is rendered in other Gatis/nadais. Everybody is aware that no fractions are allowed at all in furnishing numbers unless we need them for a specific purpose and in the same manner no fractions are allowed in rendering Kriyas. amsharma.
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[email protected]
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#118

Post by [email protected] » 19 Jun 2007, 21:34

Everybody is aware that no fractions are allowed at all in furnishing numbers unless we need them for a specific purpose and in the same manner no fractions are allowed in rendering Kriyas. amsharma.(If we are playing 27 thisram or other gathis IN ONE AVARTHANAM what is wrong in it ) If it is right gathy is possible .13.5 is one ghanda jathy thripuda plus one sankeerna chappu .so both two thalam is existing in CM putting thalam is different (folk traditional style of ottam thullal) that is why sivapalathalam is different .If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music,KINDLY RE
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msakella
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#119

Post by msakella » 20 Jun 2007, 07:52

Dear brother-member, [email protected], There is nothing wrong in ‘playing 27
Trisram or other Gathis in one Avartam’. You are at liberty to play as you like but in a disciplined manner. As per your version – one Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine (9) Kriyas in an Avarta plus one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries nine (9) Kriyas in another Avarta totaling to 18 Kriyas. As all are aware, mainly, there are five Gatis, Trisra, Chaturashra, Khanda, Mishra and Sankeerna Gatis carrying 3, 4, 5, 7 & 9 units respectively per each Kriya. If these Gatis are applied to this Tala carrying 18 Kriyas in each Avarta the total units are 18 x 3 = 54, 72, 90, 126 & 162 units respectively. Now, choose one among them and tell me how many units are running in each Avarta of your Shivapalatalam in a clear and disciplined manner. No Tala ever disappears and simply vanishes in thin air. We stop using them lest spilling out our own beans. There are thousands of Talas which we have stopped using them having become in-efficient day by day. That’s all. amsharma.
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[email protected]
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#120

Post by [email protected] » 20 Jun 2007, 19:31

sir In the same speed Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine in other words 36units and the one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries 18 units (2speed) that means If both thalams putting together and playing we need how many units for each gathy pl clarify................... (2)If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, pl give reply for this and how can you help me also for popularaising this rair folk thalam sir
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[email protected]
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#121

Post by [email protected] » 20 Jun 2007, 19:39

sivapalathalam wrote:sir In the same speed Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine in other words 36units and the one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries 18 units (2speed) that means If both thalams putting together and playing we need how many units for each gathy pl clarify................... (2)
If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing.
My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, pl give reply for this and how can you help me also for popularaising this rair folk thalam sir
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msakella
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#122

Post by msakella » 20 Jun 2007, 21:06

Dear brother-member, [email protected], In your previous post you have written that the Shivapalathalam is the combination of two Talas, Khanda-jaaati Triputa and Sankeerna-chapu totaling to 18 Kriyas. As per our Shastra all these 18 Kriyas should consist of the same duration. But, now, you are telling that the Khanda-jaati Triputa consists of 36-units and Sankeerna-chapu carries only 18-units. This is like a person having two hands but with different lengths, which is awkward and in-disciplined. There is nothing wrong in popularizing the Folk Talas and, of course, it is our duty to save them from extinction. But, while doing so, you should also try to properly keep their identity. We should not try to mix them with our classical Talas if some problems crop up. Unless I have the detailed knowledge of all your Talas either Folk or Classical Talas I may not be able to help you in any manner. amsharma.
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[email protected]
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#123

Post by [email protected] » 20 Jun 2007, 22:42

sair if we are seaing 176 people we can get one like this .how can i kill him. one more doubt is it possible to play 5gathys for sankeerna chapu
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msakella
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#124

Post by msakella » 21 Jun 2007, 07:45

Dear brother-member, [email protected], I did not and need not tell you to kill your bosom friend whom you like very much. But, don’t compel others to love him and bear with him like you do. Playing 5 Gatis to Sankeerna-chapu depends upon the duration you give to each Kriya. If that duration accommodates you to fit in the Gati you require you can have it as well. But, hope you will try only one Gati at a time but not the combination of all the Gatis together for God’s sake. amsharma.
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[email protected]
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#125

Post by [email protected] » 14 Aug 2009, 22:58

http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s31priyamhn&r=83 sir iam in polnd conducting thala vadyakachari 20stages igot ,appriciation from many great artsts of europe including great woodstok festivel. i have given answers to their quistions about sivapalathalam and advised them to come to the foram for clarifing their doubts in carnatc music because i know what i am knowing and not noing befor iam reaching the site meter was 1% in europe now can seee how much they like our music and sivapalathalam than us. other thing i did i plaid athithalam and its 5 gathis, from sankerna to sankernatisram that means 27 unitsfor 4beats then shose the connection of sivapalathalam thericaly .everithing easy but pracicaly ..... i got the healp of kerala traditional artist like sree payyavoor narayanamarar .i like not only carnatic music but also hindusthani and kerala style .in the foam i have sean our very very great artists like...... they are mixing thavil chollu annd chanda chollu if that is true why can't a person like me who is a beginer ???.'if thinging about mridanga we canot think with out their name pl advise to them sir
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