New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

Tālam & Layam related topics
msakella
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#26

Post by msakella » 03 Jan 2007, 13:35

Dear member, [email protected], Our brother-member, mridangam1 did not criticize anything against ‘Shivapalathalam’ in his post but appreciated my way of explanation. He felt happy about my way of explanation. That does not mean he is criticizing against 'Shivapalathalam’. I do not know why you taking it negatively. This is a discussion. Always discussions are needed to bring out the facts. Even while discussing one should not take things negatively. Nothing should be personal. The persons who cannot convince others only will take them negatively. Please take it sportively and positively. You are always at your liberty to bring out your version and convince others. Why don’t you try to do that? Please do so. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 03 Jan 2007, 13:45, edited 1 time in total.
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bharathamuni
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#27

Post by bharathamuni » 03 Jan 2007, 18:46

I have observed Hari doing what he vouches. Great practicing vocalists, music instrumentalists and dancers (names have already been mentioned in the former notes) have aaproved of its genuine features. Regarding the negative or negative-looking comments, my humble feeling is that the open ones must ignore them. "Discovery" is not bringing something that did not exist hitherto; it's revealing or bringing the lesser known or unknown to 'a period', into the field of attention of others. It's like the Edison's egg story. When one does it others can always say that's already known. But, the question is, did you tavel the trabeculae to reach that?Those who speak about the period of a needle passing through several petals of lotus ...... and.... the etc. etc... & making the intricacies of taalas sound so abominable, msut be able to accept a 'half aksharakaala also' realising well that the terms 'maatra' & 'akshara kaalas' are used in reverse sense also in certain styles of peforming arts, in Kerala. If scientific discoveries can be named after the discoverer or the one adored by the discoverer, what's wrong in the name "Sivapaaal taalam'. In a wider sense, lord Siva does the ' paalana' (maintenance) of all rhythmic activities too - both in the metaphysical and physical science concepts.The logic of discovery does permit any large-hearted one to simply congradulate Hari for his "Discovery" & the name of the Taalam.
Last edited by bharathamuni on 03 Jan 2007, 18:57, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#28

Post by msakella » 04 Jan 2007, 07:17

Dear member, bharathamuni, Even though I am unable to make out any sense of some of the words of your post I would like to answer.
‘Percussionist Harimohan has created a new Thala structure called ‘Sivapalathalam’ is the news item brought out in ‘The Hindu’ dated 09-06-2006. They should have brought this in their news item as a ‘Discovery’. Of course, I do not know whose fault is this. As all kinds of rhythmical forms already exist in the universe there is no question of ‘CREATION’ at all of any new rhythmical form but ‘Discovery’. That is why I have mentioned that nobody can claim that he had created a new rhythmical form.
In any of my previous postings I did never write about the duration to pierce several petal leaves at all.
Irrespective of their ignorance, the relevancy should always be maintained by anybody in using the technical terms properly. If certain people are used to mean the established technical terms in reverse sense nobody can help! However, nobody has ever tried to make this so called ‘Sivapalathalam’ clear to me in all aspects.
In any of my previous postings I never raised any objection even upon its name ‘Sivapalathalam’. Let him have ‘Sivapalathalam’ or ‘Savapalathalam’. What business I do have to object?
In the annals of our music literature only 15 books have been dealt with the topic, Talaprastara and, among them, only two books, 1.Sangita Samayasara written by Parshvadeva of 13 century and 2.Gayakalochanam written by Tacchoor Singaracharya Bros., in 1902, have dealt with this topic, in which serial numbers are also furnished to 52 and 158 Talas respectively and, among them, 25 and 43 numbers respectively have been found incorrect. I have brought out all these details in my book, ‘Systematisation of Prastara Details of Deshi Talas (available in Karnatic Music Book Centre, Chennai)’ proving their correctness or otherwise through ‘NASHTA & UDDISHTA’ of each and every Tala. Thus, only these two authors have proved that they are well versed with the secrets of ‘NASHTA & UDDISHTA’ and others are not at all acquainted at all with these secrets but dared to create umpteen lists of Talas of their own fancy which facilitated to include Talas after their own names and titles like Nisshanka-tala and Sharngadeva-tala (by Sharngadeva) and Lakshmanahvaya-tala (by Bhandaru Lakshminarayana of Sangita Suryodaya). Even without having the required knowledge, Sharngadeva made a mess of ‘NASHTA & UDDISHTA’, which was even more worsened by the later editors of ‘Sangita Ratnakara’ (refer my book, ‘Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara-with a critical interpretation’ available at Karnatic Music Book Centre, Chennai). After Sharngadeva all the remaining authors have simply followed his footsteps by furnishing umpteen lists of Talas of their own fancy but without any serial numbers of their Talas furnished by them. In the same manner, every individual has every right to claim as the creator of one Tala or other but without furnishing its serial number at all and Harimohan also did the same. There is nothing wrong in it if the youngsters follow the elders.
Most unfortunately, none of the present musicians is aware that there are two kinds of rhythmical forms, 1. which can be rendered (like Simhanandana etc.) and 2. which should not be rendered (like Sharabhanandana, Mela-talas and Tiruppugazh prosodical forms etc., in which Samyuktangas are included) and that the authenticity of any rhythmical form of the universe can be proved only by its specific serial numbers.
So, by the grace of the Almighty, as a knowledgeable person of this ‘authenticity’ and unlike an ignorant person, I can congratulate Harimohan (or any other knowledgeable person who approved his demonstration), of course, with a large-heart, if any one of them can furnish the serial number of his ‘Sivapalathalam’ and define. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 26 Jan 2007, 04:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
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#29

Post by Nick H » 04 Jan 2007, 20:02

Utterly unqualified to partake in this conversation but...

I have observed musicians to present, for instance, pallavis and talavadya kutcheri pieces in strange talams --- even including half beats--- certainly not included in the tables (eg of 35 and 108) that the lesser-informed among us use as reference.

I am sure that the mridangists and other laya experts on this forum could play, for demonstration, in rhythms based on any random numbers selected and suggested --- and make it sound good (there is a difference between maths and musicality, of course)!

I don't recall, on any of these occasions, any great claim to have discovered anything new.

Also--- The existence of a tala, outside the theory books, is rather dependent on there being music composed in it, isn't it?
Last edited by Guest on 04 Jan 2007, 20:03, edited 1 time in total.
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[email protected]
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#30

Post by [email protected] » 04 Jan 2007, 23:19

`'Dear member, Kahangad T.P.Sreenivasan composed a keerthana in sivapalathalam sivasakthy ragam witch was brodcasted surya tv kairali tv geevan tv and enough students are now studing from him According to the masters sivapalathalam is best for improving thala ghana Because of having 13.5 akshara the thala is more better for thala vadya kachari
Last edited by [email protected] on 04 Jan 2007, 23:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
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#31

Post by Nick H » 05 Jan 2007, 00:01

[email protected] wrote:`'Dear member, Kahangad T.P.Sreenivasan composed a keerthana in sivapalathalam sivasakthy ragam witch was brodcasted ... ...
That's one, then.

Shall we come back in a four or five decades and see if it caught on?
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msakella
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#32

Post by msakella » 05 Jan 2007, 05:57

Dear member, nick H, Upon earth mathematics is the only subject having unambiguous and highly disciplined precision and the rhythm, which is purely of mathematics, in music also is supposed to be like that. If it is not precisive that means it is far from mathematics. There may be strange Talas but each one of them should be precisive in nature. Is there any ambiguity in the nature of any of the 35 Talas? No. In the same manner every rhythmical form, being mathematically based, is also supposed to be like that. There should not be any difference between pure mathematics and musical mathematics. Both are all the same. To tell the fact, in the universe, there are two kinds of rhythmical forms and they are 1.disciplined rhythmical form, which can be used as Tala like 35 Talas and Simhanandana-tala of 108 Talas and 2.indisciplined rhythmical form, which cannot and should not be used as Tala at all like Sharabhanandana-tala and other rhythmical forms in which Samyuktangas are included. But, this knowledge should be obtained from the topic of Talaprastara only. Only the person who is well versed in Talaprastara can properly understand this or a highly disciplined person can also understand this. That is why, Padma Vibhooshan, Sangita Kalanidhi, Dr.Sripada Pinakapani, a very knowledgeable and highly disciplined person, who is acquainted with the Sharabhanandana-tala but not with Talaprastara, had, after a long discussion, agreed that it is not a rhythmical form to be used as a Tala at all. There are many such rhythmical forms even among 108 Talas. But, people are not aware of them. Ignorance is bliss. I doubt this ‘Sivapalathalam’ also belongs to this category. That is why, till now, nobody is able to furnish the correct and precisive picture of it. After seeing this post people may come out, one after the other, with some or other picture of it, which may not be precisive. amsharma.
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coolkarni
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#33

Post by coolkarni » 05 Jan 2007, 13:53

Ignorance is bliss
In one of the early interviews with kamal hasan on TV, I heard him reply to a question
Q - what is the most difficult part in conveying the emotions on screen ?
Hands , My dear Friend , It is the two palms.They keep tripping me every now and then.One who does not need to hide them , is a blessed actor ....

Oh ! How I hide my palms in a concert .deep in my pockets .
After reading all this , I will keep them deeper.

Ignorance is bliss ... indeed.A(musically) poor man's bliss.

Dear Sarma- Sorry for this interruption.Just could not hold back.

BTW I am very curious to know what may be the approximate Percentage of an audience that understands all the complexities of Rythm on any given day - say in a jam packed MFA concert of TNS with MC-UKS...
Just curious to know whether my kind are in the majority or...:cool:
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msakella
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#34

Post by msakella » 05 Jan 2007, 18:10

Dear moderator, coolkarni, Better to let your palms insert deeper only after ensuring yourself that there is no hole on the other end of your pockets. Please don’t misunderstand me if I tell it is less than 1% nowadays. Nowadays people are very much eager only to make easy money or fame or popularity with minimum knowledge, within minimum possible time and with minimum possible physical and mental exertion.
Acquiring deep knowledge is not that easy but a great task. Generally, while all the people remain under the control of the language, the language itself remains under the control of a very few knowledgeable people only. But, most unfortunately, even these very few knowledgeable people, instead of coming forward to enlighten the society, are running far away from their responsibilities in guiding the younger generation properly in the process of keeping our great cultural heritage in tact. Our society flourishes only when the elders truly feel their responsibilities. amsharma.
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arunk
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#35

Post by arunk » 05 Jan 2007, 21:50

msakella wrote:To tell the fact, in the universe, there are two kinds of rhythmical forms and they are 1.disciplined rhythmical form, which can be used as Tala like 35 Talas and Simhanandana-tala of 108 Talas and 2.indisciplined rhythmical form, which cannot and should not be used as Tala at all like Sharabhanandana-tala and other rhythmical forms in which Samyuktangas are included. But, this knowledge should be obtained from the topic of Talaprastara only.
Dear msakella-garu, i know you have explained this before but please bear with my question(s).

BTW, I dont have the necessary knowledge, and am merely trying to follow this logically.

First of all, here is my undestanding of your argument for talas employing samyuktangas:
1. They employ a combination of angas but are written as one anga (sign?) - with the consititent angas on top of each other.
2. The consitituent angas are laghu, dhruta etc. and so they themselves include a beat/clap (sounded kriya?)
3. (i hope i am remembering this correctly from an earrlier post of yours) Since in a tala, each anga can have only one beat/clap, samyukanga's cannot be performed i.e. a tala containing samyukta anga cannot be performed.

Am I right? If so, while strictly by tradition (as in a tradition which has the rule that each anga can have only one beat/clap), one could argue that samyukta angas cannot be performed within that tradition, how does this make the rhythmical form tala indisciplined? If there is a repeating, rhythmic cycle, why isnt that sufficient? Why isnt that disciplined?

In fact if #3 is right, isnt the concept of samyuktanga a self-contradictory thing? I wonder why bother coming up with samyukanga as with specific internal structures like laghu-dhruta-virama?

Thanks
Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Jan 2007, 22:00, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#36

Post by msakella » 06 Jan 2007, 22:02

Dear member, arunk, As per your post you have understood all the 3 points correctly.
In fact, unless you get some acquaintance with Samyuktanga-prastara you cannot understand this implication. However, I shall try my level best to define it for you. Still if you do not understand and if you, along with some of the members of our forum, are really interested in learning this rarest topic of our music I shall try to start with a new thread ‘Talaprasrtara’ in our forum and go on posting the relevant material in it.
At the first instance I want to declare that the concept of Samyuktanga-prastara is not all self-contradictory. All the material pertaining to Talaprastara in all the treatises right from Sangita Ratnakara of Sharngadeva to Mathematical basis of the Tala System of K.Ramachandran is full of ambiguity and contradiction. To tell the truth, in this topic, Talaprastara, having precisive mathematical base, nowhere there is ambiguity or contradiction. Believe it or not, for the first time in the annals of our music literature, only by the grace of the Almighty, I could bring out many details of it with very high precision, which have never been brought out by any of my predecessors. Even now, if anybody can prove any ambiguity or contradiction of the details of my 3 books, I shall burn out all the copies of them and make a public apology to the entire music world in this respect.
There are 3 very important points in regard to the tradition of our Tala system and they are, 1.Each and every Talanga, except Kakapada, consists of the first Kriya always sounded i.e., Sashabda-kriya or sounded beat 2. Irrespective of the number of Laghus incorporated in a Tala, each Laghu should belong to the same categorywithout any deviation and 3. The duration of all the Kriyas should be one and the same without any deviation.
In Samyuktangas, for example, Laghu-druta-virama is a combination of three Angas, Laghu + Druta + Virama, which have to be written one above the other as single Anga.
As per our tradition, as there are three Talangas, we are supposed to render the starting Kriya of each of these three Talangas with a sounded beat. But, even though it is a combination of 3 Talangas, as it has to be taken as a single Talanga, only the starting Kriya of Laghu should only be sounded. Thus, as this becomes the contradictory point such rhythmical forms having such Samyuktangas should not be rendered at all. But, to the question, ‘why should we have such rhythmical forms consisting of Samyuktangas?’ you will get the answer only after learning this topic. Are you ready to learn, my dear? amsharma.
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arunk
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#37

Post by arunk » 06 Jan 2007, 23:11

Dear msakella-garu,

I am ready to learn as to why we have samyuktangas. Since this would be by reading what you post, "i am all eyes" (as opposed to all ears) :). I also want to know why we should label them non-rhythmic, and undisciplined? Is it beyond the reason that they violate the principles of our tradition?

Thanks
Arun
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msakella
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#38

Post by msakella » 07 Jan 2007, 09:02

Dear Admin, srkris, As our member, arunk is interested in learning this rarest topic, Talaprastara, I request you to kindly do the needful to start a new thread, Talaprastara in our forum to facilitate not only our member, arunk but also all the interested other members and all others. As this topic is particularly based on mathematics at every stage and every point there will be very high precision. This is called ‘combinatorics’ in other countries. Generally, while the required rhythmical form out of the infinite number of rhythmical forms could be obtained with the help of calculator or computer, we Indians could get them very easily through some easily accessible processes even without the help of calculator or computer. Even though these processes have never been brought out by any author of any century, fortunately enough, I have fully been blessed by the Almighty to get all these secrets in my extensive research of 40 years. As I felt it as my duty to give it to my society I have brought all these details in 3 books and even without expecting any financial help from any quarter, I have myself printed these books, though on a small scale, and pass them on to my society. Now, I again feel that another opportunity has come to me to enlighten my society to bring out this topic through this forum. Everything is the will of the Almighty and we are guided by Him. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 07 Jan 2007, 11:08, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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#39

Post by msakella » 07 Jan 2007, 16:15

Dear member, arunk, As you wrote in your post I did never label the Samyuktanga-prastaras as non-rhythmic. They are not ‘non-rhythmic’. My words ‘disciplined and indisciplined’ also should be meant only as ‘renderable and non-renderable’ rhythmical forms. These ‘non-rhythmic or undisciplined’ rhythmical forms are also a part of the grand-total permutations obtained in the process of Prastara. But, they will not fit in the traditional limitations to use them as Talas like Tiruppugazh prosodical forms or ‘Chando-rupas’. These prosodical forms also carry different kinds of units in a cycle, which will not fit in the traditional limitations. That is why, in these Tiruppugazh prosodical forms we come across Laghus carrying varying units in the same cycle. People without having acquaintance with this Talaprastara have elevated them the Tala-stature like Sharbhanandana-tala. We will come across all these things in the forest of ‘Talaprastara’. amsharma.
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Nick H
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#40

Post by Nick H » 07 Jan 2007, 18:55

I am very lost about this distinction. probably because because I have not given sufficient attention.

Can you help me with an example of a non-renderable, undisciplined rhythmic form?

Perhaps I must study from the beginning of your new thread.

By the way... all members can create their own threads: we do not have to wait for our moderators to do that...
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rajumds
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#41

Post by rajumds » 07 Jan 2007, 20:46

nick , i had tried to email you thro' the link in the forum regarding the books given msakellaji. Please email me so that i can send them across to you.

sorry for the digression
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msakella
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#42

Post by msakella » 07 Jan 2007, 21:38

Dear member, nick H, As per our tradition in Karnataka music there are 3 important points to follow in making a rhythmical form as a Tala and I have already furnished them in one of my previous posts However I shall reiterate them and they are 1.Only the first Kriya, irrespective of any Talanga, except Kakapada, must be kept sounded and all the remaining Kriyas, if any, must be soundless 2. Irrespective of the number of Laghus incorporated in a Tala, each Laghu must be of the same category without any deviation and 3. The duration of all the Kriyas must be one and the same without any deviation. All the rhythmical forms devoid of any Samyuktanga and following these above 3 rules can always be rendered as Talas and the rhythmical forms not only contradicting with these above rules but also consisting of Samyuktangas should never be rendered as Talas.
All the 35 Talas and any rhythmical form following these above rules come under the category of renderable Talas and Talas like Sharabhanandana, Tiruppugazh prosodical forms and all the rhythmical forms consisting of Samyuktangas i.e., combinations of Talangas written one above the other like Druta-virama, Laghu-virama, Laghu-druta, Laghu-druta-virama etc., come under this category of non-renderable Talas. I prefer to call them ‘non-renderable-talas’ only than ‘undisciplined-rhythmical-forms’. For example among the 32,768 varieties of rhythmical forms pertaining to 16-units - 2 1 4 1 2 2 1 1 2, the 15,047th permutation is a rhythmical form which can be taken as Tala consisting of Druta, Anudruta, Chaturashra-jati-laghu, Anudruta, Druta, Druta, Anudruta. Anudruta and Druta totally carrying 16-units in a cycle and can be named after ‘nick H-tala’ if at all you are interested and 3 3 1 1 2 5 1 - the 17,125th permutation is another rhythmical form which cannot be taken as a Tala to be rendered as it, apart from the two 1-units and one 2-units which can, of course, be rendered as two Anudrutas and one Druta, also carries two 3-units and one 5-unit, which have to be rendered as two Laghus pertaining to Trisra-jaati and one Laghu pertaining to Khanda-jaati, which is contradictory to the above 2nd traditional rule of our Tala system. This for your kind information.
Of course, I know a little of music but not the rules of our form to start a new thread in our forum on my own. That is why I have requested our Administrator, srkris to do the needful in this matter and waiting for it. amsharma.
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arunk
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#43

Post by arunk » 08 Jan 2007, 00:06

Dear msakella-garu
msakella wrote:Dear member, arunk, As you wrote in your post I did never label the Samyuktanga-prastaras as non-rhythmic. They are not ‘non-rhythmic’. My words ‘disciplined and indisciplined’ also should be meant only as ‘renderable and non-renderable’ rhythmical forms..
I understand. Sorry for misquoting you - i sort of thought you may be meaning this but was not that sure. Also, your later post to Nick H further clarifies what I thought you may have meant (cannot rendered i.e. as in as a tala).

I will wait for the new thread to ask some related questions.

Thanks
Arun
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msakella
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#44

Post by msakella » 08 Jan 2007, 04:25

Dear member, arunk, This is a place for the exchange of thoughts and related subjective discussions. We may not be able to meet so frequently in person for this purpose. But, taking advantage of this Internet and this forum, in particular, we can always exchange all our thoughts and have subjective discussions for the benefit of all. For this we both must thank both the Internet and this forum alike. And, always I feel it as my duty to enlighten my brothers and sisters on the subject I have already had a little more experience, being an elderly person, for the benefit of our society. Welcome, you can ask me as many number of questions as you can. OK. amsharma.
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Nick H
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#45

Post by Nick H » 09 Jan 2007, 00:16

Many thanks for taking the time to explain.

I will have to read again and again....
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msakella
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#46

Post by msakella » 09 Jan 2007, 03:12

Dear member, nick H, Please go through the new thread 'TALAPRASTARA' also and try to learn it. It is very useful in mathematical calculatioins of Mridangam. Please do. With best wishes, amsharma.
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Nick H
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#47

Post by Nick H » 10 Jan 2007, 21:00

I will!

My guruji would tell you that I was very quick at understanding some things, but sadly slow at others...

Actually, before learning any mridangam I considered myself almost blind to numbers --- I am making progress.....
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msakella
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#48

Post by msakella » 10 Jan 2007, 21:13

Dear member, nick H, When you are quick at understanding some things, you can be of the same at others also. Please try and I shall give you many tips to get through very easily if you come to me. In fact, it is easier to teach you in person. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.
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[email protected]
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#49

Post by [email protected] » 28 Feb 2007, 22:33

Dear members please visit my sight through you can clarify the doubts sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com
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[email protected]
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#50

Post by [email protected] » 05 Mar 2007, 19:24

Dear msakella-garu, please tell me how many thalas have13.5 beats or 54unit . From Among 108 Talas including the first 5 are Marga-talas and the remaining are Deshi-talas. And how is putting talas for that ( Really Iknow Iam a child ) but iam lucky to see great Artists and got chance to perform infrontof them and got appreciation .Iam sure that if i get a ,chaance to perform infrontof you will also satisfy. Yesterday i got a programme of Payyanur Pain &Paliative Care society .I did it with out any financial benifit .In that programme I played mridangam and put thalam with other hand .After getting your reply Iwill uplod that programme . thank you
Last edited by [email protected] on 05 Mar 2007, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
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