New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

Tālam & Layam related topics
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#51

Post by [email protected] »

[email protected]
Member Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'Dear msakella-garu, please tell me how many thalas have13.5 beats or 54unit . From Among 108 Talas including the first 5 are Marga-talas and the remaining are Deshi-talas. And how is putting talas for that ( Really Iknow Iam a child ) but iam lucky to see great Artists and got chance to perform infrontof them and got appreciation .Iam sure that if i get a ,chaance to perform infrontof you will also satisfy. Yesterday i got a programme of Payyanur Pain &Paliative Care society .I did it with out any financial benifit .In that programme I played mridangam and put thalam with other hand .After getting your reply Iwill uplod that programme . thank you

Last edited by [email protected] (Today 02:46)

msakella
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#52

Post by msakella »

Dear member, [email protected], You are a Vidwan in Mridangam and by all means I appreciate your attitude towards making experiments. But, in the Tala-chapter of our Indian music, there is one chapter called ‘Talaprastara’, the 10th and the last element of ‘Tala-dasha-pranas’. In fact, being the last one it received the least treatment right from our Great Nisshanka Sharngadeva, who does not know the full details of it but included it in his ‘Taladhyaya’ having only copied it from some other source (I have proved it with solid evidences in my book, ‘Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara - a critical interpretation’). Most unfortunately, all the other authors followed suit but dared to furnish huge lists of several Talas which helped only for the duplication of them in so many ways. Till date, I did never find even a single person knowing the full details of this topic on earth. In the annals of our music literature there were only two authors, 1.Parshvadeva of 13th century, the author of Sangita Samaya Sara and 2.Tacchhur Singaracharya Bros. of 1902, the authors of Gayakalochanam, who have furnished fixed serial numbers to the Talas furnished in their works. Even though it was proved that they have the detailed knowledge of Talaprastara by furnishing these fixed serial numbers to Talas, most unfortunately, they too did not furnish the most important details of it in their works. Any person who is well versed in Talaprastara can only furnish the fixed serial number to any rhythmical form of the universe by which the authentic origin of any rhythmical form of the universe can be proved beyond any doubt. That is why I am also asking you ‘Is there any other Tala having half-beat and if so, what is/are its fixed serial number/s? msakella.

msakella
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#53

Post by msakella »

Dear member, [email protected], I have gone through your reply in ‘sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com’. I have always been interested in acquiring as much knowledge as I can pertaining to our Great Indian culture only to distribute what little I know to my juniors in the process of keeping our great culture in tact but not at all to boost myself in any way. All the office-bearers and members of our forum, ‘rasika’, are very actively and enthusiastically participating in such activities and I, as a member of it, also feel to contribute my mite in this process. So, I hope you will agree with me and bring out all your queries through this forum to enrich ourselves in this process. If they are also interested in these proceedings and ask us, we both shall post these proceedings in both the forums.
Still I am also a student, but senior by age, as I am 69 yrs., old now. As far as my knowledge goes there will never be a half-figure i.e., 3 ½, 4 ½. 12 ½ etc., and in the same manner no half-beat is available in any rhythmical form of the universe. msakella.

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#54

Post by [email protected] »

Dear msakella-garu, please tell me how many thalas have13.5 beats or 54unit .If there is no means SIVAPALATHALA is not coming in the least of Among 108 Talastalas ( 108 Talas the first 5 are Marga-talas and the remaining are Deshi-talas.) Another thing is that suppose we are putting ghandajathy thripuda thalm 3 timese we willget 27 beats . For that thalam we need 108 unit .One beat need 4 unit .If we are using 54 unit in the same means we will reach half . The length between the two point will be 13.5 beat. waitng for your reply sir .
Last edited by [email protected] on 08 Mar 2007, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#55

Post by msakella »

Dear member, [email protected], At the first instance you must give me the details of all the Talangas of that Tala in a serial order, then the total of Kriyas of those Talangas basing upon Jaati required and the Gati i.e., Trisra or Chaturashra or others. Basing upon the Talangas, Kriyas and units of the respective Gati the total of units of each cycle or Avarta of the Tala should be obtained. Unless you give me these details of Sivapalathalam I cannot proceed at all.
Triputa-tala consists of three Talangas, one Laghu and two Drutas and for Khanda-jaati the total of Kriyas are 5 + 2 + 2 = 9. As you wrote, if you want to put 3 times of it, it arrives at 3 x 9 = 27 Kriyas. OK. Then, while rendering this Tala, according to the required Gati, you have to render 3 x 27 = 81 units for Trisra-gati, 4 x 27 = 108 units for Chaturashra-gati, 5 x 27 = 135 units for Khanda-gati, 7 x 27 = 189 units for Mishra-gati
and 9 x 27 = 243 units for Sankeerna-gati. This is the correct approach of a Tala. If this is not the correct approach please furnish the correct approach and we shall discuss. If you
want a Tala containing 54-units you can have it even without incorporating half-beat in it. Why do you try to incorporate a half-beat in it? Can you furnish the details of any Tala
containing half-beat? Please do so. In the meantime I shall be away for 3 days and come back as I have to conduct a two-days work-shop on the easy methods in singing Svarakalpana and Ragalapana in a music school at Tanuku, East Godavari District of our State. msakella.

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#56

Post by [email protected] »

'Dear msakella-garu, I have uploaded sivapalathalam played in mridangam and chanda in my web site. I have also uploaded a keerthanam in sivasakthy raga set to sivapalathalam ( written by sree Kambarath Madhavan payyanur) compossed and sung by sree Kanhangad T.P.Sreenivasanan (AIR Agrade artist ). I expect your wholehearted opinion .............................................About me I have learnt tabala from sree TVM vijayan (hindusthni) I get a chance to give guru dakshina to sree chalad Kannan . .So I am considering all seniors as my gurus accoding to (Mridangam member) those who have basic knowledge can do a lot. In the web you can watch my putting thalam with right hand and playing with other hand. The appriciation certficats the only award I got from the great masters like sree T.KMoorthy, sree Parasala Ravi (Retired Principal of Swathithirunal Sangeetha College Trivandrum), Sree. A.S.N.Nambeesan--A great scholar in keraleya thalavadya, Sree V.P.Dhananjayan (Bharatanatyam) and others. Because of having 13.5 beat the next thalavattam we will not get any single unit up to next thalavattam while playind gathyse. so please put khandajathy thripuda and taist the differance between 27 akshara thalas and sivapalathala. If you are indrested let us conduct a good programme. waiting for yor reply sir shall I get a chance to talk through internet or phone, http://sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com/
Last edited by [email protected] on 13 Mar 2007, 09:50, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#57

Post by msakella »

Dear member, [email protected], I have gone through your recent post. I do not know any one of the stalwarts you have mentioned therein. I am interested in knowing the details of your Tala than down-loading the relevant pictures. I am not going to question your Vidwat but the details of all the Talangas of that Tala in a serial order, then the total of Kriyas of those Talangas basing upon Jaati required and the Gati i.e., Trisra or Chaturashra or others. Basing upon the Talangas, Kriyas and units of the respective Gati the total of units of each cycle or Avarta of the Tala should be obtained. Unless you give me these details of Sivapalathalam I can do nothing about it. I am also finding it difficult to understand your letter. I am unable to understand why you are uploading the relevant details instead of furnishing them to me. Instead of contacting me by telephone it is not only cheaper to discuss through our rasikas forum but also properly enlightens all our people. amsharma.

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#58

Post by [email protected] »

'Dear msakella-garu, I have uploaded sivapalathalam played in mridangam and chanda in my web site.2 Ihave up loded the video of putting the thala with one hand and playing mrithanga with other hand .After seaing that video clips It very easy to discuss .Iam thing that it is very easy to put ghandajathy thripudathal < then you can understand that with in 27 beat you will get 2 thalavattam of SIVAPALATHALAM that means it is consuming 13.5 beat )this medi is very easy to clarify the doubt than reading five books .After that everybody can easy to criticise in this media .sir according to you( As far as my knowledge goes there will never be a half-figure i.e., 3 ½, 4 ½. 12 ½ etc., and in the same manner no half-beat is available in any rhythmical form of the universe. msakella.).If one is coming that is new . one example if we are taking one litter full of water we know it is 1 litter if there another one pot wich can contain half of its water means it is half litter like that sivapalathalam is half of 27 beat means13.5 may iget your opinion.
Last edited by [email protected] on 15 Mar 2007, 09:10, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#59

Post by msakella »

Brother, Chi. Priyamohan dear, I have tried my level best but not getting the video clipping. However, I do not understand why you are hesitating to furnish the Tala you have yourself created in terms of its Angas, Kriyas, constituent units of each Kriya and the total number of units of an Avarta. In such case, I shall try to decipher your Tala I understood and please try to correct me if I go wrong. Khanda-jati Triputa-tala consists of one Khanda-jati Laghu carrying 5 Kriyas, the first Druta consisting of 2 Kriyas and the second Druta consisting of 2 more Kriyas totaling to 9 Kriyas. As per our tradition we have to render three sounded beats and 5 un-sounded acts in this tala. But, I do not understand how can I get 27 beats in 9 Kriyas. If I run 3-units of each Kriya then it should be called Trisra-gati. But, surprisingly enough, you are telling only 27 beats but not 27-units. Unfortunately, I feel better to read even more than five books than to follow your narration. I never want to criticize anybody. Why should I do so even at this age? I should not and need not do so. But, I am interested in maintaining our tradition properly. That is why I have criticized even the creation of Sharabhanandana-tala by our beloved Shyama Shastry, the Great. Mistake is mistake. We should be ideal to others in maintaining our great traditions. Please don’t get irritated but give me a proper reply. Without giving proper reply if you get irritated and write something non-sense I have no other go except to stop answering your posts. amsharma.
Even after modification of your letter by you my reply doesn’t need any modification. But, hereafter I shall attend to the posts in our Rasikas only but not in wetpaint.com. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 15 Mar 2007, 15:50, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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#60

Post by arunk »

Dear msakella-garu: the video can be viewed at: http://sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com/page/video+03.
and http://sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com/page/video+05

I was able to watch it yesterday on my home computer.

I dont have that much knowledge on this subject to get in the discussion here, but here is an attempt to clear up the communication channels (although i may be making matters worse by introducing my own terminlogy! If so, my apologies).

The tala seems to put like the cApu talas i.e. no laghus. From what I could make out, it looks like:

B b B b b B

B: 8 units (one beat/slap with the hand, played as thakadimi thakajanu on mridangam)
b: 4 units (one beat/slap with the hand, played as thakadhimi on mridangam)
t: 6 units (2 fast beats/slaps with the hand)

Note: I have grouped the last b b b t as [ b b b t ] because i think this is the sankIrNa cApu that priyamhn talks about.

This adds as 8 + 4 + 8 + 4 + 4 + 8 + [ 4 + 4 + 4 + 6 ]= 36 + [18]. So 27 (18 + 9), 13-1/2 (9 + 4.5) etc. come by dividing it by 2 and 4. respectively.

As I mentioned this is sort like cApu talas and so I am not sure how this relates to tradition - but it is a rhythmic cycle. The Hindu article does mention that this tala is more influenced by kerala talas/tradition.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 15 Mar 2007, 20:04, edited 1 time in total.

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#61

Post by [email protected] »

Dear arunk very very thanks for clarifying like this . It is not easy that is why i have up loded this. Next I am going to upload one thalavadya katchary conducted in payyanur at onam by SOUTH ZONE CULTARAL PROGRAMME . (The Chennai-based veteran mridangam artiste T.K. Murthy, complimented him when Harimohan demonstrated the thala before him. Several other percussionists, both in Kerala and outside, have approved the rare structure and aesthetics of Shivapalathalam, he claims. He recalls that veteran thala scholar and composer A.S.N. Nambeesan appreciated the unique Keralite flavour in Shivapalathalam and advised Harimohanan to popularise it in Kerala. Harimohan has also evolved a methodology for using this thala for Carnatic vocal recitals, "With the blessings of my gurus and senior maestros, perhaps, I will be able to popularise it. Now, my attempt is to introduce this thala in percussion ensembles in Kerala," says Harimohanan, a self-taught artiste. ) Now a days all are going through sarvalaghu that is why our 'Dear msakella-garu,said '( I did never find even a single person knowing the full details of this topic on earth.) and also ( Still I am also a student, but senior by age, as I am 69 yrs., old now. As far as my knowledge goes there will never be a half-figure i.e., 3 ½, 4 ½. 12 ½ etc., and in the same manner no half-beat is available in any rhythmical form of the universe. msakella.) Change is essancial for every thing like the western violin comes to carnatic music or sruthy box coms. I havent seen any single book but i got the least of 27 akshar thalas from the great guru Dr T.K. Murthy. I know the differance of SIVAPALATHALAM with that any how I will go on my own way with out giving my thumb thank you
Last edited by [email protected] on 15 Mar 2007, 22:55, edited 1 time in total.

mridhangam
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#62

Post by mridhangam »

The Tattakaaram for the song goes like this. It is not Chaapu Taala. Thaka (Dhina) Thaka Thaka (dhina) Thaka Dhina Thaka (Dhina) Thaka Dhina Thaka Thaki (ta). The words in brackets are Silent kriyas in the tala. The last (ta) also is not represented by a beat as it is part of Takita which we generally omit like in Chaapu Talas-Misra Chaapu, Khanda Chaapu or even Adi Tala Tisra Nadai. All the beats are in Chatusra Nadai only. The Single First beat is actually 2 beats duration with the second beat silent. The second audible beat is one beat. The Third audible beat is again two beats with the second beat silent. The 4th and 5th beats are audible. The 6th Beat is again 2 beat duration with the second beat being silent. Then comes the Sankeerna Chaapu. It follows below :
Beat No: 1 (Sashabda and Nishabda) 2 Aksharas
Beat No: 2 Sashabda 1 Akshara
Beat No: 3 Sashabda and Nishabda 2 Aksharas
Beat No: 4 Sashabda 1 Akshara
Beat No: 5 Sashabda 1 Akshara
Beat No: 6 Sashabda and Nishadba 2 Aksharas
Beat No: 7 Sashabda (Starting of Sankeerna Chaapu) 1 Akshara
Beat No: 8 Sashabda (Second beat of sankeerna chaapu) 1 Akshara
Beat No: 9 Sashabda (Third Beat of Sankeerna Chaapu) 1 Akshara
Beat No:10 Sashabda (Tisra End part of Sankeerna Chaapu) 1 1/2 Akshara
So adding the above 2+1+2+1+1+2+1+1+1+1 1/2 makes the total aksharas to 13 1/2.

This is how i see the tala. More over i have tried to put Adi Talam and cheked. The song goes for 1 1/2 avarta and finishes with 1 1/2 Akshara or in other words it finishes 1/2 akshara before the start of the second drutam in the second avarta making the total Aksharas to 13 1/2.

I have only dissected the tala and tried to explain it for the sake of readers as to how the tala can be properly seen and represented. The words are something like this "SRI SAILA NILAYA CHANDRA SEKARA PRABHAVA". I m not really sure about the sahitya because of echo in the recording and also the presence of accompanying instruments.From whatever i could listen i am writing may be someone could throw light on the sahitya as well though more important aspect is about the Tala itself and logistics like sahitya here is only for academic interest. SRI (2 AKSHARAS) SAILA ( 2 AKSHARAS) NILAYA (3 AKSHARAS) CHANDRA (2 AKSHARAS) SEKARA (3 AKSHARAS) PRABHAVA (1 1/2 AKSHARA).

Further comments or observations i shall try to add later.
Mannarkoil J.Balaji

arunk
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#63

Post by arunk »

thanks for the clarification balaji sir.

Arun

msakella
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#64

Post by msakella »

Dear members, Arun, [email protected] & Mridhangam, Surprisingly, it has become a real wetpaint in my case and I was unable to get any video picture out at all from wetpaint.com. However, somehow I could sum up the contents of the post furnished by our brother-member, mridhangam to arrive at a reasonable picture and I am very much thankful to him for having kindly fished me out. Now, as I have already guessed, while Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. Having no knowledge of the rare topic, Talaprastara, many stalwarts might have supported this Tala structure but our brother-member, sbala, having recently gone much deep into this topic, Talaprastara, should also be able to furnish the authentic serial number, if any, of this Tala of 13 ½ units. Awaiting reply from sbala, amsharma.

mridhangam
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#65

Post by mridhangam »

Akella Garu and others

As I hav already mentioned in my post that I shall try to add my observations later I am herewith trying to pour my thoughts into this further. The Tala Structure contains actually 9 Beat portions (before the start of Sankeerna Chaapu) where the 2nd, 5th, 9th are silent. I dont see any big logic in this as it could have been a Sankeerna Laghu and a sankeerna Chaapu, which can be logically answered as first Sankeerna Laghu having double the duration of Sankeerna Chaapu and then a Sankeerna Chaapu which is half the duration of Sankeerna Laghu to make the structure interesting. Anyway having made the Tala Structure this way by Mr.Harimohan, we may have to observe this and many more. May be to make the tala structure look complicated it was designed that way. Can there be any logic in this is a moot point we have to ask. If the silences coincide with the sahitya structure it would have been appropriate for the Tala structure chosen.

As pointed out by Mr.Akella Sir in the post regarding Tala Prastara "Rhythmical forms are innumerable ...." we may have to be catholic enough to accept forms and structures beyond Tala Prastara gamuts also. Akella sir has pointed out that even the great Sarngadeva himself has faltered in his attempts. My sincere appeal is that we may have to go beyond tala prastara (As tala prastara does not provide scope for 1/2 akshara talas) and see this composition as such and view this as a special case itself. May be we could get something interesting at a later date if the present day composers like Dr.Balamuralikrishna comes up with something interesting. I have even heard Papanasam Ashok Ramani sing a Ragam Tanam Pallavi in a peculiar Tala structure for Khanda Jaati Triputa Tala where the 5th beat (the index finger position) was halved to give 17 akshara for the Tala in anuloma and 8 1/2 in Pratiloma. He took a pallavi in that tala and did in 2 Kalai up till 8th Beat and the 9th Beat (index finger position) will have one kalai. Again the two drutas will have 2 Kalais till the end/Start position. While doing Pratiloma the structure will be One Kalai till the Middle finger position and the Index finger beat will be halved in duration (that is the beat will be for a shorter duration of Half beat) and then immediately go to Drutam giving a challenge for both the singer and the accompanist. The Pallavi was interesting enough as a Lakshya Pallavi.

Doing something for the sake of experiment is one side of the coin but doing it with rules and regulations take other side. There are Lakshana and Lakshya in our Music. May be this Tala could be termed as a Lakshya Tala (in a very loose sense-though i am not well versed with the theoretical details of what exactly constitutes Lakshana and what exactly could be made to be observed as lakshya). The territories are unknown to me as are the theories. The gereal usage of the Term Lakshana to fit into rules and Lakshya to fit beyond rules is the sense is what i have implied.

one further observation is :

1) Kriti in sivasakti lacks Dvitiyakshara Prasa not a major one but a point to be mentioned for a composition. (Pallavi Start is Sri Saila and anupallavi starts something like Santaram ).

Any way i have poured my thoughts here in the sense of achieving the mediation between Akella Sir and member priyamhn. I am in no way competent enough to give advise to Akella garu as his vast years of experience in this field is well known and well acclaimed.

Mr.Harimohan's tala will go in the annals if it is gained as a recognition by one and all and made as a 109th (under the 108 schemes) or 121st (am i right ???) Tala in Sarngadevas list or 176th Tala in Suladi Sapta tala or 10th tala in Nava Sandhi Talas or 5th Tala in Chaapu Talas. May be we have to wait and watch.

In these days of influence, money and political power anything could be rewritten.

JB

sbala
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#66

Post by sbala »

I'm not well versed to comment on the aesthetic aspects of music and I have not gone through this thread completely as well. But, if we are saying we could accomodate half akshara thalas, what is stopping us from doing 1/3,1/5 etc. Mathematically, even that could be construed as a rhythm. For instance, lets take a thalam that takes 8.2 counts assuming someone comes up with a kriya to denote the .2 counts. This is just a question as I'm just a beginner. To me, it seems like if we do not go by the rules, then we need to draw a line somewhere and it will be a struggle as rules are meant for that purpose.
Last edited by sbala on 16 Mar 2007, 08:59, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#67

Post by msakella »

Dear member, mridhangam, In such case, all the more, this Sivapalathalam stands in the annals of our music literature as the first one of its kind even without our usual Talangas or without any authentic serial number. Till now, while we are in a position to show similar basic rhythmical structures even to our Desadi or Madhyadi or any of the Chapu-talas, hereafter, we need not even bother to show such similar basic rhythmical structures to such forthcoming Talas as a development in our science of music. Thus, we can bid good-bye to our age old traditions in this developmental process of our culture. OK. Even our poor Shyama Shastry could not dare to do this!
Recently, in one of my posts, I wrote that while the Hindusthani-music-artists are using only Thaali and Khaali in rendering their Talas without using our traditional Talangas at all but claiming our authentic music works like Sangita Ratnakara as their authentic works also, our Karnataka-music-artists are still using our traditional Talangas in rendering our Talas maintaing our tradition. Now, this Sivapalathalam paves way to follow the foot steps of our Hindusthani-music-artists in this respect. Very encouraging indeed! amsharma.

mridhangam
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#68

Post by mridhangam »

Akella Garu hope you are not criticising ME for writing that post. I have not tried to support Mr.Harimohan and his invention nor am i trying to discredit it. (For both i dont have any knowledge). I have tried to highlight certain important points that came up in my mind like Lakshya sangeetha and Lakshana sangeetha in which sense we can view this Tala. It has now been proved well beyond doubt that this tala cannot be defined in terms of Tala Prastara at all. so, why do we have to again and again grind there. Shall we look beyond Tala Prastara and see it as a separate entity like even Sarabanandana Tala? Can start a separate serial numbers for 1/2 Akshara Talas as well ? 1) Shivapalatalam 2) ????????????? 3) ???????????? etc ? As some one earlier posted that even one with a basic knowledge of talas could come up with a new tala structure will hold water then. I can have a tala with this following structure too. Assume we have Thisra Jaathi Dhruva Tala Chatusra Nadai. After every laghu portion I add a Tisra Nadai it can give a different Tala Structure too. it might be 3+1 1/2+2+3+1 1/2 + 3 + 1/2 to give a total of 15 1/2 aksharas also. Yahooooo have i found a new tala and term it as "PATHAALAM" ? So our debate here is first whether the Tala itself is acceptable within the Gamut of Written Manuals or can be accpeted beyond it. If it is to be accepted beyond it then who will bell the cat for such talas and who will draw a line (as Mr.Bala has quoted). There is a famous quote in Tamil "Thadi Eduthavan ellam Thandal Kaaran" meaning free for all without any rules and regulations. It is of course as a way of discussion that we are trying to arrive at a logical conclusion for this problem we are facing here. I reiterate here in the forum that my intentions in participating in this forums are for gaining knowledge and also to give out whatever little i know. ABSOLUTELY I DONT WANT TO CRITICISE ANYONE AND HARM ANYBODY'S FEELINGS.
JB

msakella
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#69

Post by msakella »

Dear member, mridhangam, I do not and need not find fault with anybody’s view. Why should I? Everybody can have his own view and it is his birth right. Why should I interfere? One kind of strict disciplinary action later becomes tradition. In that manner, our ancestors have long back evolved some inter-disciplinary methods in respect of our Talas for a disciplined development in the later centuries and named them as Tala-dasha-pranas. One among them is Talaprastara. Due to the ignorance of our fore-fathers we all have lost its track since many centuries and now it dawned upon us. Any person who is knowledgeable enough in Talaprastara declares that fraction of figures are not possible in Talaprastara. However, if any person comes out with a well-disciplined plan of application of Talaprastara for all the fractions of figures also, becomes able to give authentic serial numbers to all of them and also give suitable answers to all my questions, as I am the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of this Talaprastara, I shall be the first person to congratulate him in this regard. Let anybody try in that direction. Welcome. amsharma.

vasanthakokilam
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#70

Post by vasanthakokilam »

May I ask for a clarification on this 1/2 count? This is really not about the specifics of Sivapalathalam but the discussion seems to indicate that traditionally a fractional beat count per avarthanam is not allowed in CM. But we know that the chapu thalas ( with 2 1/2, 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 ) are very much in vogue and they do not really follow the traditional thala angas and they probably have a different origin. So, Sivapalathalam is not the first one to introduce half beat count in to the CM fold, correct? or is there a way to incorporate and reconcile the chapu thalas with the tranditional thalas which do not allow fractional beat count avarthanams?

msakella
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#71

Post by msakella »

Dear member, vasanthakokilam, In the annals of our Indian music, around 13th century, mostly Chaturashra-jati was in vogue and having relevance with the even number four, only four Talangas, Druta, Laghu, Guru & Pluta are used, funnily prohibiting the fully silent Anga, Kakapada, that too in only some of the talas. That is why; in those days, even Talaprastara was applied only to the Angas pertaining to Chaturashra-jatiand and was called Chaturanga-prastara. Later on the lacuna of odd-numbers was felt and Trisra-jati was included and extended to Talas paving way to other odd Jatis, Khanda, Mishra & Sankirana in our practical usage and with respective relevance with Panchanga, Shadanga-prastaras in Talaprastara. Even then, we do not have any jati for 11 or 13 or 17 or 19 etc., etc. To fill this void the Samyuktanga-prastara, which was ignorantly called Shodashanga-prastara (4x4=16) by all the authors but, extending it only to the Angas pertaining to Chaturashra-jati, as if other Jatis are not alive at all. If this has to be extended to all other Jatis also, similarly we have to call them Dvadashanga-prastara (3x4=12) for Trisra-jati taking the value of the highest Anga, Kakapada into consideration, Vimshatyanga-prastara (5x4=20) for Khanda-jati, Ashta-vimshatyanga-prastara (7x4=28) and Shat-trimshadanga-prastara (9x4=36), thus, changing the name every time the Jati changes just like a foolish person changing his name evey time he goes to another street of his village. That is why this has been named after Samyuktanga-prastara as different combinations of Talangas written one above the other are also used in this process of permutation. Thus, our fore-fathers have already made a provision for the usage of all the units of figures in our Talas without any exception at all. Thus the talas containing odd-figures of Kriyas in an Avarta like 3, 5, 7, 9 are also provided independent identity calling them Chapu-talas but they did not take them in terms of 1 ½ or 2 ½ or 3 ½ or 4 ½ and so on as they also thought that such thing makes the mathematical applications cumbersome. Generally, the figures are cited with the nearst round figure but not along with their fractions unless it is necessary. I do not understand the logic behind using the fractional figures also in Talas as if all the available innumerable independent figures are not enough. amsharma,

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#72

Post by [email protected] »

Sree Guru please clarify (odd-figures of Kriyas in an Avarta like 3, 5, 7, 9 are also provided independent identity calling them Chapu-talas(some times using as main) but they did not take them in terms of 1 ½ or 2 ½ or 3 ½ or 4 ½) (have a chance in that catagary) Why.How many units we want for thisra aka thalam (for one thalavattam)if it is 9 meanswe want 2.25 akshara.Idont know wether it is correct (because the lack of basic )like USING but not dair to say it is ours (what agreat tradisanal theory) and why iam asking that your the only man (!00.)..and Iam the oniy man (0)in this padma viewham. so i have a chance to improve.Iam thinging what may be the opinion about half akshara thala. In kerala vadyams we are using half akshara and half of half akshara thala (if doubt can clari fy )
Last edited by [email protected] on 19 Mar 2007, 08:23, edited 1 time in total.

msakella
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#73

Post by msakella »

Brother-member, [email protected] dear, Till now I have been thinking that I am very poor in English-language and that the readers of my letters laugh at my letters aloud very happily and heartily and enjoy them in that way. But, I feel extrememly sorry, to write that I did the same when I have gone through some of the words of the letter of my dear brother, priyamohan. I always prefer to be jovial and also to make others jovial. Please don’t take it serious.
Had there been such a chance of including such fractional figures also in our tradition our fore-fathers would have happily done so long long ago. They are not fools to neglect them. This is mathematics and it needs the highest precision. That is why they did not dare to include them. If you talk about the usage of the Talas in Kerala containing akshara or half-akshara or quarter-akshara I cannot understand them in which way they are used unless you demonstrate and define them in my presence. For God’s sake please don’t drive me and insist upon going through your drypaint again to view any videos. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 20 Mar 2007, 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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#74

Post by sbala »

VK,
Please read the thread on chapu thalams where Sharmaji has explained how it should be rendered.

Also, I don't know why we are hung up on this .5 counts. As per my understanding, the process of talaprastara does not preclude these fractions. The process of arriving at these permutations should hold good even for fractions. But the point is, there are no angas to represent them as per traditional CM.

Even if you take the trouble of finding an anga to represent 1/2, 1/4, 1/ 8,1/16 etc, where is the need? And then my final question is what is so special about 13.5 as opposed to 8.5 or 13.4 and why give a name for it? To me its just an arbitrary number unless someone can tell me it has got a special musical significance.

vasanthakokilam
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#75

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>just like a foolish person changing his name evey time he goes to another street of his village.

That is quite funny, msakellaji. :)

Thanks sbala for the reference to the chapu thread. That actually raises another question. We avoid the fraction there by using durita kala and hence the total counts are doubled, fractional counts avoided.

You wrote "But the point is, there are no angas to represent them as per traditional CM."..

In the case of chapu thala, it does not seem to map to any anga as per traditional CM. Is that true? Here the defintion of beat itself is tricky. e.g In Khanda Chapu, the first beat and second beat ( or first kriya and second kriya if that is more accurate ) have different durations. Some CM purist might counter and say it violates the bedrock of CM that all beats have to be the same duration.

Can priyamhn eliminate the fractional count by making his sub-beat count 27 ( by always rendering it in durita kala - along the same model as chapus or if it is already in durita kala, double the durita kala )

>To me its just an arbitrary number unless someone can tell me it has got a special musical significance.

I agree with that in principle. Anyone can put together an arbitrarily complex thala structure. Since some existing CM thalas have the same beat count but different internal structures, the job is even easier to come up with something that can be, by definition, considered new but still have the same beat count as existing thalas. But then we have not gotten to the full musical significance of the existing angas in traditional CM as per the discussion in the laya thread. As sarmaji seems to be indicating, there may not be much more than what we have already discussed. As long as that kind of a gap exists, anyone can run a big truck through it ;)

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#76

Post by mridhangam »

Mr.Bala yes you are right in the sense that 13.5 has no relevance at all. certain people like this one want to make things look complicated though it is very simple. If you go thru my post i had also found a tala counting to about 15.5 aksharas with our own basic Druva Talam . Absolutely it is possible to have any number of combinations like the one that has been created or discovered or invented or watever it is. I will give you ideas as to how to create them. Because they dont seem to have any rules at all and hence anyone and everyone can create it and then name it as anything as Akella garu has earlier pointed out. Absoloutely there is no musical significance at all in these or any other. Somehow this person seem to have come up with that tala and had the means to popularise it and made an acceptance with a few people without going through the rigours of Talaprastaras and other relevant aspects of our tradition with which our Akella Garu is well versed and only living authority. I can even think of a different line if this 13.5 has provided a different direction to the Laya aspect at least. As a general thumb rule we mridangists say that which is not available in Adi Tala is not available elsewhere. So always we try to frame the korvais or kanakkus based on adi tala and try to add-subtract to accommodate for other talas as well. Anyway over to Mr.Akellagaru for furthering the debate and arriving at a conclusion. Oh not. The conclusion is evident that this tala is not a tala according to the tenets of musical literature. Let me wait till others add their comments.

sbala
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#77

Post by sbala »

vasanthakokilam wrote:> Since some existing CM thalas have the same beat count but different internal structures, the job is even easier to come up with something that can be, by definition, considered new but still have the same beat count as existing thalas.
This is what talaprastara does. You have the same units but it lists all the permutations with the different angas.

I think the question that is troubling you is this.

If I have 2 thalams with the same number of total beats, let's say 100 and 010. Both take 8 beats. Here, by beats, I'm referring to the external count. (I think we all need to standardise on the terms used to make this discussion more efficient).

1. How would this impact a composer?
2. Does he need to worry about this individual angas?
3. How does it affect the percussionists?


If these are some of the questions that are keeping you awake, I'm sorry I don't have the sleeping pills :)

But, if your question is can a composer use this structure to assist him, I would think yes but only if they are thinking of the structure of the thalam itself as the basis of the composition. I have a feeling most people compose their songs based on the words and bhavam and try to fit it into a Raga they like and a Adi or Rupaka thalam.

mohan
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#78

Post by mohan »

sbala wrote:If I have 2 thalams with the same number of total beats, let's say 100 and 010. Both take 8 beats. Here, by beats, I'm referring to the external count. (I think we all need to standardise on the terms used to make this discussion more efficient).
1. How would this impact a composer?
The talam used would determine where the stresses of a line in a composition will fall. For Adi talam the first and last half of line would be roughly equally spaced while in Khanda Jhampa tala, the first half of the line is longer than the last half.

sbala
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#79

Post by sbala »

Mohan,
Could you furnish some examples to illustrate the stress points? Do all the varnams and krithis in Adi follow this principle?
Last edited by sbala on 19 Mar 2007, 18:48, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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#80

Post by arunk »

my 2 cents.

While one can legitimately ask what is so special about 13.5, or 12.4 etc., perhaps we should ask what is special about *each one* of the existing talas. For example, do we know what is *musically* special about miSra dhruva? How about sankIrNa matya? Or the simhananda? I dont mean to dismiss all these and the history etc. I merely ask that if one looks beyond the well known fact that they are in the annals, can one see why these falls under list of acceptable tala structure? Why/what makes these acceptable while something like this new tala is not?

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 19 Mar 2007, 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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#81

Post by sbala »

well, I can atleast give some points in favour of adi, rupakam etc..They are of a shorter duration and easier to remember and render. That is probably why most of the compositions are in these thalams.

Apart from that, if a performer does not put thalam and sings the same sahityam having 14 counts, how would we recognise if it is dhruva or ata thalam? If this can be identified, then maybe we can find a justification for having 13.5 counts. And I don't think there is anything called "existing or new" with respect to thalams. Time existed since the birth of the universe and will exist till it dies!

kalgada78
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#82

Post by kalgada78 »

May be those Talas,which when divided by 2,3,5,7 or 9 further on,gives you a quotient of 2,3,5,7 or 9 again,is valid. Just my guess :)

Sarma.

arunk
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#83

Post by arunk »

akalla-garu and mridangam should have better insights on this.

bala - while i am not sure if all compositions make use of tala structure in the same way, i do think that cadences of the song will usually fall on one of the angas (i.e. where you do a sounded kriya as in a slap of the hand). As an example, if a song starts "off beat" in Adi, there is a good chance it ends with a cadence at the mid-point (i.e. start of 5th akshara) or on the start of second dhrutam (start of 7th akshara). So if you say Adi vs tiSra matya, both being 8, the cadences will probably fall differently - otherwise the tala is probably not being used effectively.

As far as Adi, roopaka etc as in smaller and hence more popular - not always true. tisra Eka, catuSra Eka would take the cake then (the case for latter in other music forms is strong, but not so for carnatic). But the case against very long talas is probably better i.e. longer talas being somewhat less popular (although khaNDa aTA is very popular in varnams - not so in krithis).

Also take Adi with 8 aksharas. Again, tiSra matya is equally short (3 + 2 + 3) but this is pretty rare compared to 4+2+2. So it is not necessarily tala length

Arun

arunk
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#84

Post by arunk »

kalgada78 wrote:May be those Talas,which when divided by 2,3,5,7 or 9 further on,gives you a quotient of 2,3,5,7 or 9 again,is valid. Just my guess :)

Sarma.
dhruva tala gives rise to: 11 (tisra), 14 (catusra), 17 (khaNDa), 23 (miSra) and 29 (sankIRNa) aksharas. So you have 4 primes out of 5 :)

If sivapalathalam was promoted to 27, would it be better accepted, if 23 and 29 are?

Arun

sbala
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#85

Post by sbala »

Arun,
you put it better. the case against longer thalams seems more convincing than the case for adi and rupakam.

kalgada78
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#86

Post by kalgada78 »

Arun,
Good point there.Akella Garu or Balaji Sir should be able to throw more light on this.

Sarma.

sbala
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#87

Post by sbala »

if sivapalathalam was promoted to 27, then it would cease to be sivapalathalam
Last edited by sbala on 19 Mar 2007, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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#88

Post by arunk »

that could be but how about this.

Unless i am reading this wrong the 1/2 akshara in the total comes because sankIRna cApu is added - is it not?

So either you have to say that sankIrNa cApu (4.5) is the one that inherently has the 1/2 akshara count which we are allergic to
OR
that interpretation is wrong and sankIRNa cApu is really 9, in which case sivapalathalam is really 27.
OR
????

Arun

PS: BTW, i read through the justification for cApu talas and i must admit i dont get it yet.
Last edited by arunk on 19 Mar 2007, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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#89

Post by arunk »

i see now vk made a similar point earlier asking perhaps it should be 27 instead of 13.5. Sorry - missed that.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 19 Mar 2007, 23:09, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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#90

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Let me just bring certain points which have already been talked about in other threads. ( Apologies for being repetitive )

1) On the musical significance of angas, in another thread, we talked about how Arudi anchors the musical line. This is definitely true of Pallavi of RTP and true of many other compositions as well. There can be more than one Arudi for longer thalas and they usually fall on the starting beat of some angas. So, in that sense, 4 + 2 + 2 is musically different from 2 + 4 + 2. Also, in that sense, the composer/tunesmith has a responsibility that some major stress points align with these angas ( and not necessarily all angas ), thus providing a different aesthetics of songs in these two thalas. This is the major musical significance of the internal structure of the thala. Definitely a Kanda Jati triputa thala is different from a Misra Jati triputa thala ( in addition to the thala length being differnet ) and the structure matters very much since the arudi has shifted. This is the point Mohan has made as well. Using sbala's worry criteria, I do not lose sleep over that part ;)

2) Side bar: While we are at it, can someone document where the arudi(s) normally fall for the 7 major thala groups. That will be very informative. For the 5 triputa thalas, we know that it is normally on the first beat of the first drutham.

3) Having established the anga significance in the above sense, the remaining issue is, how about the other angas and what are the musical significance about them? For example, Composers do not seem to treat the beginning of the second drutham with any special musical significance. Definitely, there are songs that do use that second drutham to anchor the last couple of words but there does not seem to be any uniformity in practice or in written works on how to structure the musical compositions around it. In my various ways asking the same question, the conclusion seems to be...'You keep looking for rules.. there isn't anything there'.

4) Adding to the evidence that there may not be any musical significance is the fact that mridangists care a lot less about the various angas. For them what matters is the total length and the sub-beat. Sri. Balaji has put it in a different way but essentially confirming this in his post in this thread that every thala can be interpreted by a percussionist as an addition/subtraction from Adi.

5) Having said all this, let us see if the Sivapalathalam can be considered unique by estalishing a Arudi point to it thereby creating a unique musical aesthetic. In other words, if someone sings an RTP in Sivapalathalam, how will the pallavi be structured? That would be an artistic way of determining if there is any musical worth to this thala, wouldn't it?

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#91

Post by [email protected] »

sree vasanthakokilam> just like a foolish person changing his name evey time he goes to another street of his village.)It like enough thalams we can see in some thala prastharas with same akshara but unfotunately we have no half beat thalam ( calling them Chapu-talas but they did not take them in terms of 1 ½ or 2 ½ or 3 ½ or 4 ½ and so on as they also thought that such thing makes the mathematical applications cumbersome.)that means 13.5 is not coming from CM or in this catagory . Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. Having no knowledge of the rare topic, Talaprastara, many stalwarts might have supported this )******** So Iam not going to make any change ........... (HINDU NEWS >>> Dedicated research Inspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms lnspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms likeike Ottanthullal, Shivapalatham is the result of Harimohanan's dedicated research for several years. He has also drawn on his experience as an artiste for more than three decades. "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, with specific calculations," he explains. The speciality of Shivapalathalam is that it is based on 13-and-a-half beats. According to Harimohanan,) This is the news from the hindu .I have anxiety about knowing that Sree Gurugi is the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of this Talaprastara, who is saying 13.5 is out of it (what i said is proved..... accurate) A man can take a horse to the water but 20 cant make it drink .(Now iam 50 becoming little dry ) thank you
Last edited by [email protected] on 21 Mar 2007, 07:20, edited 1 time in total.

sbala
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#92

Post by sbala »

Vk,
This is what I'm trying to get at. Just like how we are able to establish the raga of a composition without any doubt , you should be able to identify the thalam without any ambiguity with the performer not putting the thalam. If we can come up with the rules to identify the thalam in such a scenario, that would be very helpful.

mohan
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#93

Post by mohan »

sbala wrote:Mohan,
Could you furnish some examples to illustrate the stress points? Do all the varnams and krithis in Adi follow this principle?
I don't know if evey single krithi follows this rule but it is generally true!

Take these popular Thyagaraja krithis for example:
Banturiti kolu, Hamsanadham - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ko'
Raghunayaka, Hamsadhwani - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ka'
Chakkani raja, Kharaharapriya - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ja'

Nick H
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#94

Post by Nick H »

As RTPs are partly an 'exercise in difficulty' can they not be in any arbitrary talam structure? A challenge to the accompanists indeed --- but is that not part of the carnatic 'game'?

mohan
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#95

Post by mohan »

Indeed the pallavi is a game. If you haven't already, listen to the lec-dem by TRS at http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=36010#p36010

If you look at the following posts there, you can see there is some confusion as to what talam one of the pallavis is set to.

sbala
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#96

Post by sbala »

mohan wrote:Take these popular Thyagaraja krithis for example:
Banturiti kolu, Hamsanadham - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ko'
Raghunayaka, Hamsadhwani - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ka'
Chakkani raja, Kharaharapriya - a stress (emphasis) comes on the first dhrutam on the 'ja'
I'm not convinced that just an emphasis on the midpoint or first Drutam is "theoritically" enough to identify it conclusively as Adi thalam. May be you can use it to differentiate from Trisra Jathi Matya and the other popular thalams. For instance, the following thalams (not used at all)
1. 44
2. 4211
3. 2222

could also have an emphasis at the same point. Maybe if there were emphasis on both the 5th and 7th beats at different points in the song and not on the other beats then we could possibly conclude it is Adi. Shouldn't we have the same kind of rigor in thalams as in ragas? Something that sets it apart from others.
Last edited by sbala on 20 Mar 2007, 15:26, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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#97

Post by arunk »

i think a syllable falling on the 7th beat is not uncommon for Adi. I think the 5th beat cadence/stress is more common probably because it is the midpoint. I would guess that if you probably look at the composition as a whole you will find stresspoints on both 5th and 7th beat.

Bala - 44, 2222 arent they techinically not correct as they should reduce to just 4 and 2?

Arun

arunk
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#98

Post by arunk »

also i think not all versions of cakkani raja have that initial stress on the 5th beat but I have heard it both ways. In any case in one of the books i have the "ja" falls before 5th beat, but mu of margamu falls on the 7th beat - sort of like

; cakkani raja | ; marga | muNTaka ||

(2-kalai of course)

Arun

sbala
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#99

Post by sbala »

Arun,
there is nothing technically incorrect with 44 (2 chaturasra laghus) or 2222 (4 drutams) though I wouldn't certainly expect people to compose or perform in those thalams. I think if a song has stress on the 5th and 7th beat at some points in the composition, (not always) then it would be safe to call it Adi thalam provided it is 8 units. But, if it never stresses one of those beats, then I can put the thalam in more than one way. It's analogous to characteristic phrases of the raga. Anyway, I don't think all this rambling from me is of any help as percussionists seem to care only about the total number of aksharas making the angas meaningless. If only some of the composers in this forum can come to our help and let us know their thoughts .

arunk
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#100

Post by arunk »

right - if portions of the composition (i.e. pallavi, anupallavi) etc. is a multiple of 8, then 44; 2222 are valid.

I may be wrong but I think you may be taking the view of percussionists paying attention to only total # of aksharas a bit too far. That applies more during tani. During the krithi, they must pay attention to the important stress points and hence indirectly to angas.

Of course during krithi and at end of tani they must pay attention to the take-off point (i.e. for krithis that dont begin on samam) so that the refrain at end of a tala cycle, and also the korvai of the tani ends at the precise point of the tala cycle.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 20 Mar 2007, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.

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