RTP tala ..

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 25 Nov 2008, 22:59

Hi All,

I am listening to an old Semmangudi concert. The RTP is in Shankarabaranam.

The pallavi is the often heard "Chakkagani Bhajana ... dina dinamu". Can someone please let me know the tala of this and the break down with the beats? Thanks in advance.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 26 Nov 2008, 16:00

basic structure is Adhi thAlam.But in different concerts he has sung in different kalais. In a commercially released krishna gana sabha 1974 concert with lalgudi and vellore ramabhadhran , he would have sung it in 1-kalai. The pallavi would have started in the little finger(ie, after 4 aksharas from samam) the pallvi would go for 4 AvarthanAs there(in 1-kalai)..

In a bombay concert, he would have sung in 2-kalai.. so if we listen carefully, we can find out whether it is 1-kalai or 2-kalai for the thAlam is basically Adhi..i hope you can make it out from this. if you have any problem pls let me know i will try to help. for i can interpret only 'chakkagani bhajana' and then 'rAmA dinadinamu' in that pallavi for only those were pronounced properly

please excuse if there is any misttake..any other views???

Rishikesh · Post by **Rishikesh** » 31 Dec 2008, 12:28

Dear Sirs,

can someone clarify how to sing in tisra nadai in a regular 3 speed 2 kalai adi thala pallavi(of one avarthana).

Rishikesh

cmrasika · Post by **cmrasika** » 01 Jan 2009, 13:47

Hi Vidya Raja, I felt it would be apt if I ask this in this thread because its relevant to the topic being discussed.

after singing in chathushram when the artist wants to sing a varnam in tisram, yes of course the speed of the talam is still constant but this time the artist has to fill 6 notes in 1 beat. But in order to do so does the artist change the way of the singing the varnam to make it sound like crisp tisram? Or does he sing the varnam in the normal way but painstakingly incorporate 6 notes per hit with the same uniform talam speed?

I think you'll get what am talking about if you can recall that sanjay changed the way he sang the pallavi line "Appakara Nindhai Pattuzhuladhe ariyadha vanjarai Kuraiyade" when he wanted to incorporate tisram. Like that, is there a convenient way of changing the varnam to exhibit tisram?

quite boggling indeed!!:(

Rishikesh · Post by **Rishikesh** » 01 Jan 2009, 14:34

Thanks Vidya for clarifying my query.

Is the tempo of pallavi higher than the normal chathusra nadai pallavi for the tisra nadai, since 6 beats are taken for a thattu instead of 3(Tha,ki,ta-which will result in a lower tempo when compared to the chatusra nadai pallavi at normal speed)?

However, as per your calculation the gathi will be slower than the normal speed 4 akshara per beat thala pallavi.

Hope I have explained properly.

Rishikesh

cmrasika · Post by **cmrasika** » 01 Jan 2009, 15:23

well I thought the speed of the talam is constant regardless of whether you're changing the nadai of the pallavi line.. Only the number of notes accomodated per hit changes from 4 to 6 for tisram. Because I thought if we change the speed of the talam it leads to whole new concepts like (pratilomam/anulomam) Anyway lets wait for Vidya to reply.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 01 Jan 2009, 18:01

No, you are right, the speed of the talam is constant --- and even where pratiloma/aniloma is concerned, the pulse remains constant.

cmrasika · Post by **cmrasika** » 01 Jan 2009, 20:26

"""When one changes from chatusram to tisra gathi , the fact that 6 notes are accomodated in the place of 4 , shows the change and has to be practised to start the gathi change correctly.""""----------------------------> Yes Vidya Raja... You're absolutely correct.

In fact incorporating 6 notes per hit by itself is achieved by sheer practice I guess considering the fact that the natural body clock is tuned to chathushram..and the transit from chathushram and tisram should be neat and seamless... I think practice practice and more practice that's the thing which makes the artist perfect....

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Jan 2009, 01:59

Can someone point to audio samples of artists singing tisram in the pUrvAnga of a varnam? I am still confused about the technique.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Jan 2009, 13:43

Is there any difference in the shift from Chatusra to tisra in different kinds of musical composition?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 02 Jan 2009, 15:10

vk - one example: on musicindiaonline checkout bombay sister's rendition of saveri varnam. It has tisram rendition of the pallavi and anupallavi. Actually IIRC they sing the pallavi in tisram and anu-pallavi in tisram mel-kalam. Also perhaps in order to deliver it the standard catusram (keezh-kalam - i.e. start of the rendition) is taken at a languorous pace.

Also, pl check out this post: http://rasikas.org/forums/post75183.html#p75183 - i had mentioned this rendition elsewhere (albeit in a different context).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Jan 2009, 05:13

Thanks Vidya Raja and Arun.

I think I got it now. The sub-beat interval does not change during the shift to tisram. ( I remember now that we have discussed this before ).

Arun, thanks for that Bombay Sisters link and your detailed explanation.

So it looks like there are two ways of doing this: ( using the saveri varnam Pallavi and Anupallavi as the example )

a) If you have 4 avarthanas in chathusram (4 * 16 = 64 ), you repeat a couple of avarthanams to make it 96 which will then fit into 4 avarthanams of tisram ( 4 * 24 = 96 )

b) As bombay sisters have done it, you sing 2 of the 4 avarthanams at double speed. That makes it 48 ( 2 * 16 + 2 * 8 ) which fits into 2 avarthanams of tisram ( 2 * 24 = 48 ).

Hope I got this right.

1) With respect to the thala kriya, when they switch to thisram, do they keep adi thala according to thisram, like (3 + 3 + 3 + 3 ) + (3 + 3 ) + ( 3 + 3 ) ?

2) Nothing seems to change at the switch except the kriya (and the repetitions or halving of avarthana ), so the song should sound exactly the same. But when they switched to tisram there is a perceptible difference. Are they shifting the stresses to the tisram beat boundary to indicate the switch?

3) Consider a hypothetical example, if there are 6 avarthanas in the pUrvAngA for a total of 96 in chathusram, one can sing it as 4 avarthanas of tisram. The entire pUrvAngA should take exactly the same time to complete in chathusram and tisram, correct?

In fact, Bombay Sisters could have done that for the saveri varnam since at double speed, pallavi, anupallavi and swaras can each be considered as one avarthana each. If they had sung tisram straight, it would fit perfectly, right? ( but their way of doing it has a charm of its own and requires some extra skills )

cmrasika · Post by **cmrasika** » 03 Jan 2009, 09:01

In place of 4 notes packed into a beat now 6 notes are packed into a beat (for tisram) but with the same speed maintained on the hand. Therefore there is a perceptible change in the speed of singing sahitya in order to fit 6 beats into each takadimi....Maybe I've answered vk's question.. but can someone else chip in for reinforcement of this point?....

Rishikesh · Post by **Rishikesh** » 05 Jan 2009, 10:35

cmrasika, Vidya Raja,

This is what I meant when I referred to the tempo being faster w.r.t sahitya speed.

Thanks!

Rishikesh

cmrasika · Post by **cmrasika** » 05 Jan 2009, 18:58

Hi Rishikesh
glad you got the hang of it now..

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 05 Jan 2009, 21:28

nick H wrote:Is there any difference in the shift from Chatusra to tisra in different kinds of musical composition?

Remember the deep discussions we had about the different ways of switching Gathi.

A) Keep the sub-beat interval the same ( the beat interval changes )
B) Keep the beat interval the same ( the sub-beat interval changes )
C) Neither sub-beat or beat-interval changes. It is the grouping of sub-beats that chages ( say from 4 to 3 etc. )
D) Both sub-beat interval and beat interval change. I do not think this is practised.

Vidya Raja and cmrasika are concluding that in Varnam and RTP the gathi change is of type B.
But I have been thinking that it is type A based on the prior discussions on this topic.
I think Arun is saying it is either type A or type C for the Bombay Sister's Varnam here: http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/9Ux ... .As1NMvHdW
(Arun, please correct me if I am misinterpreting what you wrote before ).

In this varnam, I do sense a dragging effect when Bombay Sisters change the gathi throwing some doubt on whether it is Type A

In RTP, there is only one avarthanam ( thala cycle ) and so the artist has the flexibility to repeat the avarthanam multiple times in switching the gathi.
In Varnam, you have to do it for the whole pUrvAngA together like how Bombay Sisters have done. Also, there was a point made before that the pUrvAnGa should take
exactly the same time to complete no matter what gathi it is performed in.

That is what led me to ask if gathi switching is done differently in RTP and in Varnam.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Jan 2009, 22:17

I don't think I ever admitted to there being more than one kind!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Jan 2009, 20:05

vk,

i now forget the context in which I posted that one before (will read it again), but I think it is type B for this rendition of Bombay sisters. Outer beat interval (i.e. say the spacing between the kriyas of 2-kalai adi with which you start) is same over the switch. It is that you go from fitting 4 swaras to 3 - and thus you hear the difference. They also make a concscious effort to emphasize all 3 sub-beats with akaram wherever possible (sa ra a su u u u ...)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Jan 2009, 12:47

Arun, thanks. I understand now what is going on in that varnam.

I mis-understood in the other context when this varnam was discussed that you meant to characterize that as Chathusra Tisram because the counts eventually matched in tisram and chatusram.

But now I understand what is going on. If one avarthanam of chathusram sollus/sahitya takes N seconds, the equivalent sahitya in Tisram it takes 4/3 N seconds. Tisram second speed it takes 4/6 N seconds. So the two avarthanams take 4/3 + 4/6 = 12/6 N = 2 N seconds. Exactly same as two avarthanams of chathusram.

Anyway, all this is confusing enough and Bombay sisters adding the double speed thisram, though very interesting, make it a not a good starting tutorial to illustrate tisram singing.

How come there are not a lot of instances of artists singing tisram in Varnams? Just wondering aloud... I wanted to hear a lot more examples but it seems very hard to come by.

rajajisrinivasan · Post by **rajajisrinivasan** » 16 Jan 2009, 04:31

VK: Here's one by Madurai Sundar - Sahana Varnam.

http://sangeethamshare.org/tvg/UPLOADS- ... _R_SUNDAR/

The thisram starts about 2:23 minutes after the start.

Another product of the nadai change from chathusram to thisram is the time it takes to complete a phrase of the kirthanai or in this case the varnam. When the nadai changes to thisram the time it takes to sing the same phrase is only 2/3rds (of the same phrase sung in chatusram) - Just felt like adding to the confusion.

In this rendition, the chatusram piece (Karunimpa idhi manchi) takes about 11 seconds and the same phrase in thisram takes about 7.3 seconds.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Jan 2009, 10:57

rajajisrinivasan, Thanks for that link. I will listen to that when I get a chance, hopefully soon.

What you say about the 2/3 time is true. See if the following summarizes the full picture:
tisram will take 2/3 of chatusram time if thisram is sung in thisram second speed
( 6 sub-beats per beat, 4/6 = 2/3 ) and
4/3 of chathusram time if thisram is sung in the same speed as
chathusram ( 3 sub-beats per beat, 4/3 ).

rajajisrinivasan · Post by **rajajisrinivasan** » 16 Jan 2009, 20:16

vasanthakokilam wrote:rajajisrinivasan, Thanks for that link. I will listen to that when I get a chance, hopefully soon.

What you say about the 2/3 time is true. See if the following summarizes the full picture:
tisram will take 2/3 of chatusram time if thisram is sung in thisram second speed
( 6 sub-beats per beat, 4/6 = 2/3 ) and
4/3 of chathusram time if thisram is sung in the same speed as
chathusram ( 3 sub-beats per beat, 4/3 ).

VK: I think so - in other words, the second speed of thisram is twice the first speed of thisram. However, I'm not sure what you mean by "...if thisram is sung in the same speed as chatusram..."

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Jan 2009, 10:40

I'm not sure what you mean by "...if thisram is sung in the same speed as chatusram..."

Sorry for the confusion. I meant 'if thisram is sung in thisram first speed'.

rajajisrinivasan · Post by **rajajisrinivasan** » 20 Jan 2009, 04:14

VK: There's also a violin rendition of the hamsadwani (Jalajaski) varnam in varying speeds (chatusram, thisram, 2nd speed chatusram, 2nd speed thisram and so on)

While we are on the topic of thisram, what recordings of chatusra-tisram are available - i think this occurs mainly in RTPs. Or, are there krithis where charusra-tisram is featured inherently?

sarang · Post by **sarang** » 21 May 2009, 22:27

Something to add. If we talk about changing beats, say tisram in a pallavi. There are two kinds. One is the Tisram which has been in discussion i.e. changing the nadai. One another tisram is chatusra tisram.

Consider a talam in Chatusra Thriputa Chatusra Nadai.

Tisram means changing the tala beat to 6 in each finger against 8 counts.
Chatusra Tisram means having the same talam, but for every 2 aksharams, we subsitute it with 3 aksharams.

Suppose we have a word Meenakshi in the pallavi with he following distribution,
Me (2) Na(2) Kshi(3)

In Chatusra tisram it would become
Me(3) Na(3) Kshi(4 1/2)

I learnt about this recently and wanted to share it. So if anyone feels I am not correct in any aspect, pls don't hesitate to let me know!

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 23 Aug 2009, 10:27

sir then how is ghandathisram ;misrathistam ;and sankerna thisram;

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 25 Aug 2009, 14:48

Till now I never read or even heard of such Chaturashra-trisram. But, there is nothing wrong in starting a new kind of thought as, in due course, it becomes a tradition of its own and it will certainly be encouraged by a lot of ignorant people. amsharma

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 26 Aug 2009, 02:43

@ sarang, perhaps who are going into a much more complex version of chathusra thisra than I know because I haven't learned too much of it, however this is what I learned...

Let us take rupaka thalam, 3 beat cycle. If you say a 3 beat pattern in chathusra nadai, it will fall back to samam after 4 times.

Now if you say a 4 beat pattern in chathusran nadai, it will fall back to samam after 3 times.

Now let's take a new dimension into it, or rather a new "layer", and say a 4 beat pattern every 3 akshara's in chathusra nadai.

So rather than doing THAkadhina THAkadhina THAkadhina THA. (every capital letter symbolizes a clap), it will be Tha(tha tha) Ka (KA ka) Dhin (dhin DHIN) Na (na na). Again the capital letters symbolize where the clap is.

The tha's, ka's, dhin's and na's, in the parentheses are supposed to be the karvai, or pause, so in this case it will be a pause of three however it is much easier to say Tha tha tha out loud just to be sure you don't mess up the thalam. If you don't make the karvai audible however, it will go off beat but end up landing on samam. If you do it correctly Thaka dhina should be said only once and fit into Rupaka Thalam samam to samam.

Now this is where controversy starts, because if you do this in double speed, rather than having a pause of three between "Tha" "Ka" "Dhin" and "Na", you will only have a pause of 1.5. This is where approximation starts because no body can get half an akshara down perfectly, if you do this, you say Thakadhina twice within rupaka thalam. if you do it the next speed, it will be a .75 pause and you will say it 4 times.

We can also do this in other thalams, for example Kanda Chapu. If you say Tha (tha tha tha tha) ka (ka ka ka ka) dhin (dhin dhin dhin dhin) Na (na na na na), (or rather a karvai/pause of 5), then it will land within 2 cycles. Tha and Dhin will land on samam. if you go into next speed, so 2.5 karvai's, then it will fit within one cycle, and if you keep doing down, so 1.75 then 2 tha ka dhin na's will fit within 1 cycle, and so on.

This is I believe a very basic concept of having chathusra thisra, or Chathusra Kanda, the problem doing Chathusra Kanda in Adi thalam kanda nadai, or the like. Keeping the balance becomes very difficult.

If I made a mistake anywhere, or misunderstood something, please correct

mridangamkid · Post by **mridangamkid** » 04 Sep 2009, 20:16

Vijayakumar uncle

Please read http://rasikas.org/forums/post136425.html#p136425. I sent it there as it seems to be the more appropriate thread.

Vijayakumar · Post by **Vijayakumar** » 07 Sep 2009, 19:42

Thanks Mridangamkid. The explanation and the audio clips were really helpful. Hope to learn more from you all.