Gamaka

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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nanosadagopan
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#1 Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Gamaka - Voice Trainer App for PC and Mobiles

Gamaka detects and draws the swaras (notes) and swarasthanas (tones) in Carnatic music as the singing/playing happens on a real-time basis.

Demo Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d270d2F ... e=youtu.be



Image

Sachi_R
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#2 Re: Gamaka

Post by Sachi_R »

Nano Sir,
I have a running debate with a vainika who says most Carnatic ensembles have horrible Sruti alignment, especially that the violin and mridangam act like bad coalition partners in a weak government.
I can link/upload some video/audio clips. Will it be possible to do an analysis and establish the level of deviation in Sruti between mridangam, violin and vocal sounds?
I am told by a domain expert that different people hear this differently and also the simultaneous presence of sounds of different timbres affects the perception of Sruti alignment. I imagine therefore that this is a multidimensional problem not of easy solution.
I wish there was some kind of objective monitor trainer analysis and display software app.

Thanks,

nanosadagopan
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#3 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Sachi Sir

Sounds interesting. You are probably referring to polyphonic sound input, analysis and display - an extended version of real-time trainer apps. Pl contact [email protected] (they developed this app) for further discussions.

ramamatya
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#4 Re: Gamaka

Post by ramamatya »

Has the app been tested?

nanosadagopan
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#5 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Ramamatya Sir

Gamaka has been tested at various levels including alpha and beta-testing in Europe, US and India. The app works on IE, Chrome, Firefox in PCs and all mobile devices. It has been tested for performance, accuracy and functionality. It is online and free. No necessity to download or install the app - making it fully functional in all kinds of mobile devices, PC and mac.

Hope this helps.

pvs
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#6 Re: Gamaka

Post by pvs »

@nanosadagopan
I installed this from play store on the Samsung Galaxy S7, but it is unresponsive - except for asking for permission to record audio. Any tips? Thanks.

Sachi_R
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#7 Re: Gamaka

Post by Sachi_R »

I could not find any website or app for this.

pvs
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#8 Re: Gamaka

Post by pvs »

@Sachi_R
This is the webpage: https://sonicsynergies.github.io/Gamaka/
But the app seems to have disappeared from play store. Maybe debugging?

Sachi_R
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#9 Re: Gamaka

Post by Sachi_R »

Thanks!

nanosadagopan
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#10 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Sachi Sir

The link is https://sonicsynergies.github.io/Gamaka , mentioned in the demo video. Gamaka is a Web App, which means it opens in a web browser, much like a web site. So, PCs, mac, and mobiles can access it online. There is no necessity to download or install. Mobiles are online anyway.

PVS Sir
The Gamaka Android app at the google play store (for mobile devices only) has been temporarily taken down for further testing. It will be launched again soon.

vasanthakokilam
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#11 Re: Gamaka

Post by vasanthakokilam »

nanosadagopan, thanks. I tried it and it works and usable though there are some issues. But it is quite useful even in this state. I was actually looking for where to set the Kattai so it will determine the Sa properly but it seems to do that automatically. Nice. That is indeed very good and makes it easy to use.

While it draws the graph for my voice, with my 5 kattai flute, it only draws it for the lower Pa and Da but for not anything higher. I tried a lower sruthi flute and it is fine.

Sachi_R
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#12 Re: Gamaka

Post by Sachi_R »

I tried it in desktop mode on my Android Chrome.
After I press start, sing/play something into the phone, and press End, it gives an oscillograph.

I would think a bit of processing resulting in single line instead of dots showing the move of the pitch as a graph will make it more aesthetic. It can also sweep across every 10 seconds and stack up plots like an ECG.

nanosadagopan
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#13 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Sachi_R wrote: 21 Feb 2018, 00:13
I would think a bit of processing resulting in single line instead of dots showing the move of the pitch as a graph will make it more aesthetic. It can also sweep across every 10 seconds and stack up plots like an ECG.
Sure, that will be the next one - to make it more aesthetic. Once the usability/functional aspects of the app is established, come the aesthetic ones next.
Sachi_R wrote: 21 Feb 2018, 00:13
I tried it in desktop mode on my Android Chrome.
After I press start, sing/play something into the phone, and press End, it gives an oscillograph.
This dots represent pitch, which is different from an oscillograph. There are a dime a dozen oscillographs. But there are no pitch representations, rather very less in numbers. There are spectrograms too but they are not useful for singers/students who want to train their singing. Again, it does not draw like an ECG because it stops when the user stops, as mentioned earlier.

This is a basic app, as of now. The dots are very small and very close resembling movement of pitch. The good thing, of course is that the movement stops if users stop singing. That allows users to stop and think about what they're looking at before going back at it again. If the visualizing went on and on and on without any control for the user, the user would have had to race along with the visualization.

Thanks for your response, Sachi Sir. The developers may probably do the second version keeping aesthetics in mind.
Last edited by nanosadagopan on 21 Feb 2018, 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

nanosadagopan
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#14 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 20 Feb 2018, 23:28 nanosadagopan, thanks. I tried it and it works and usable though there are some issues. But it is quite useful even in this state. I was actually looking for where to set the Kattai so it will determine the Sa properly but it seems to do that automatically. Nice. That is indeed very good and makes it easy to use.

While it draws the graph for my voice, with my 5 kattai flute, it only draws it for the lower Pa and Da but for not anything higher. I tried a lower sruthi flute and it is fine.
Thanks Vasanthakokilam Sir, and happy to note that it is quite useful as it is. I just want singers/students to have a utility tool easily accessible without having to pay.

Like I mentioned, it is a basic app, where the Sa is set to "G", ie, 5-kattai for female shruthi. You need to be really close to the mic for the app to respond. Also, if you sing/play softly, it will not pick up the sounds. This is to avoid extraneous noise. So, it stops marking if you stop singing/playing, and that too is useful.

Sachi_R
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#15 Re: Gamaka

Post by Sachi_R »

Nano sir,
Putting on my garage designer hat (much worn out by constant use over decades 😀), some ideas:

1. Make user use his phone with headset (Mike and earpieces)
2. The App should work like a biofeedback device.
3. Option to play standard exercises stored on app with singer singing back to it.
4. Biofeedback perfects the singer's ability
5. The display should have a kind of lissajau pattern to show the singer's performance, with colour zones etc
6. In a later version, if three singers sing together and one is out of tune it should be able to show it....


I imagine this kind of thing would be already around for use with pianos, violins etc.

uday_shankar
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#16 Re: Gamaka

Post by uday_shankar »

One mild suggestion/thought... in a graphical sense, it may be more intuitive to have t = 0 fixed at the left and have the current time t scrolling towards the right. The net result achieved is the same and the final shape of the graph, if it is within one frame, will be the same. However we will have an intuitive graphical record. For longer real-time displays, an invisible "erase bar" can lead the scroll to clear the older samples ahead, as is done in contemporary digital EKG monitors. I understand that at the outset you will lose the very important ability to read the notes off the graduated scale as they emerge in real-time, which I suppose is the primary purpose if this app! But that too can be solved by having the vertical graduated line (i.e., the one you have fixed at the right) lead the waveform. In order that the display is not too "busy", the moving graduated line can be of a milder color. Another, less effective, way would be to have Y grid. Again, makes it too busy but I like grids in my graphs :)

Ranganayaki
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#17 Re: Gamaka

Post by Ranganayaki »

I've been wondering how this is different in spirit from the GuruSangeet app that has already been presented in the technical discussions forum. That one seems to be a little more advanced (developmentally), elegant, and easier to use (I haven't tried it, I don't know how to try either app) and yet has not been discussed as much..

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30657

Shouldnt this thread be moved to the Innovations and Technical / Advanced Topics Forum?

vasanthakokilam
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#18 Re: Gamaka

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the Innovations and Technical / Advanced Topics Forum?
Yep. Moved. Thx

vasanthakokilam
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#19 Re: Gamaka

Post by vasanthakokilam »

That one seems to be a little more advanced (developmentally), elegant, and easier to use (I haven't tried it, I don't know how to try either app) and yet has not been discussed as much..
After seeing your message, I downloaded the app but found out it is for music teachers and schools. Oh well!

ramamatya
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#20 Re: Gamaka

Post by ramamatya »

One suggestion to this app: Can you make lines between the right and left markings of tones? That is, first, make the marking on the left side too as they are on the right and draw a line between them. So it is easier to check the pitches while singing.

Ranganayaki wrote: 21 Feb 2018, 20:02 That one seems to be a little more advanced (developmentally), elegant, and easier to use (I haven't tried it, I don't know how to try either app) and yet has not been discussed as much..
Shouldnt this thread be moved to the Innovations and Technical / Advanced Topics Forum?
Why compare? Since you don't know how to try any app, why talk about it? Your post is not in good taste.

Ranganayaki
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#21 Re: Gamaka

Post by Ranganayaki »

ramamatya wrote: 23 Feb 2018, 08:14

Why compare? Since you don't know how to try any app, why talk about it? Your post is not in good taste.
I thought of this myself and wondered if I was right to make the comparison. I am sorry that I have offended you by making that unnecessary comparison. I watched both videos. The other app, presented in the "right" forum received little attention. This one was receiving some attention. My point was that a well developed app like the other one should have received more attention. I could have put it better, I agree.

I misspoke when I said I don't know how to try either app. I did not notice the links and wondered how the others tried it. Yes, it was careless of me, mea culpa!!

It is wonderful that there are so many people trying to innovate! My apologies.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 23 Feb 2018, 21:19, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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#22 Re: Gamaka

Post by Ranganayaki »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 23 Feb 2018, 01:13
After seeing your message, I downloaded the app but found out it is for music teachers and schools. Oh well!
I downloaded it too, and yes, students have to use a lesson plan posted by a teacher!

Thanks for trying it, VK!

ramamatya
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#23 Re: Gamaka

Post by ramamatya »

Ranganayaki wrote: 23 Feb 2018, 20:03 The other app, presented in the "right" forum received little attention. This one was receiving some attention.
Shows some real jealousy there. The 'other' app can also post in the general forum, is anybody stopping them? There is still one Sadhakam app in general discussions forum. I requested the mods to shift it to the appropriate forum, and they DID NOT bother !

Despite all your outwardly apologies, you must now feel relieved playing the spoilsport, isn't it? :twisted:

nanosadagopan
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#24 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Ranganayaki wrote: 23 Feb 2018, 21:16 Thanks for trying it, VK!
Madam, pl stop using this thread to promote your app.
Last edited by nanosadagopan on 24 Feb 2018, 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

nanosadagopan
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#25 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Thank you, uday_shankar sir for your suggestion. It is not mild but something that hit me the first time I used it myself. When I asked the developers, they said they just wanted it to be different. But, I think they will change it to common practices in the next few versions.

Thanks to Sirs: Sachi, Uday_shankarr, ramamatya, VK, and psv for your suggestions. I'll pass them on to the developers. Bye.

Ranganayaki
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#26 Re: Gamaka

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ranganayaki wrote: 23 Feb 2018, 21:16
vasanthakokilam wrote: 23 Feb 2018, 01:13
After seeing your message, I downloaded the app but found out it is for music teachers and schools. Oh well!
I downloaded it too, and yes, students have to use a lesson plan posted by a teacher!

Thanks for trying it, VK!

VK, I meant that I saw THIS message above of yours and then downloaded and tried it myself, and understood why we all can't use it!!

This thread is really starting to get funny, thanks to an amazing nanodetective ! My cover is blown 😂😂😂!!!

vasanthakokilam
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#27 Re: Gamaka

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Ramamatya,nanosadagopan, that is totally uncalled for aggression against our fellow reputed member.

Ramamatya, we have missed your request. Remind me please.

vasanthakokilam
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#28 Re: Gamaka

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Nanosadagopan, the developers can interact with us here as well. Please let them know about our interest in their app here.

The fact it works in the browser is the big advantage of this effort since it reduces the friction in using it. A few years back, we played around with an app that did similar things. It showed what can be done in real time. It was also ‘sonic’ something but it didn’t work in the browser and hence not easily accessible to everyone.

It will be awesome if they can add the Sruthi specification and fix the bugs I pointed out ( it does not draw the graph for my G flute ),

Thx

ramamatya
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#29 Re: Gamaka

Post by ramamatya »

vasanthakokilam wrote: 24 Feb 2018, 23:12 Ramamatya,nanosadagopan, that is totally uncalled for aggression against our fellow reputed member.

Ramamatya, we have missed your request. Remind me please.
It is sad to know that you support 'reputed' members even when they are mean and nasty.

This is the thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29462

rshankar
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#30 Re: Gamaka

Post by rshankar »

ramamatya wrote: 25 Feb 2018, 08:10It is sad to know that you support 'reputed' members even when they are mean and nasty.
Rest assured that to be mean and nasty, people need to take lessons from true masters, not Ranganayaki....

nanosadagopan
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#31 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Gamaka is back.

Youtube demo: https://youtu.be/W8rsI7tJ9Gs

Click https://eusonictechnologies.github.io/Gamaka to train your voice or instrument. Gamaka works on all mobile devices and PC browsers (Works best in Microsoft Edge). Gamaka is completely free (no trial periods or in-app purchasing). For android app, check out https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... ies.gamaka

PS: In case you are wondering, the site was hacked and code partially destroyed. But the team spirit could not be broken. Thank you hackers. We come back new and improved.

nanosadagopan
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#32 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

For Desktop apps, pl contact Eusonic Technologies: [email protected]

ganesh_mourthy
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#33 Re: Gamaka

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

The lower pa to upper Sa is too narrowly placed and it is impossible to decipher the notes. It can be equidistance like many other apps. the advantage is it does not pick up the noise.

msakella
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#34 Re: Gamaka

Post by msakella »

With reference to the post No.31 very sadly the respective lady sang the different notes without consistency of either Gamaka or Kampita.

In the respective Shloka of around 12 century, ‘swarasya kampo gamakaha shrottu chitta sukhaavhaha’ where 15 varieties are furnished, even though these two terms, kampita and gamaka are furnished separately, many are used to tell that both are same which is not correct and illogical too.

Most unfortunately, none of our Sangitakalanidhis or Padmashrees, who are more of performing perspective only but very less of teaching perspective, have never tried to give a logical approach to these oscillations in making things easier for our aspirants. Even if I have tried and furnished long ago in my book ‘msakella’s easy methods in learning Karnataka music-2007’ along with the respective audio-files in which Kaishiki-nishada alone carries 27 facets, none of them comes out open either to support or condemn it even to help our poor aspirants. This is the very sad state of affairs in respect of our poor aspirants in our country. amsharma

nanosadagopan
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#35 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

Comments on the singer are unwarranted and irrelevant. It is the demo of the software and the lady sang what we told her to.

You can sing your gamakas/kampita and see if the software displays it right. The software is merely a tool that displays whatever you sing/play. If you are still confused, drop an email to [email protected] for clarification.

PS: The Github repository is no longer available. As mentioned in the youtube description, only desktop apps and android apps are available. Android at https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... ies.gamaka and contact above email for desktop apps (they are all free).

msakella
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#36 Re: Gamaka

Post by msakella »

Only just now I have accidentally seen this post bringing out my irrelevancy.

Among the three links furnished in this post the YouTube link only is active bringing out one audio of a singer singing the notes of Shankarabharana and I am not getting any audio from any of the other two links.

At this juncture except the singer's demo I do not have any other details and the singer's demo is not sung with any clarity bringing out the difference of pure or Kampita or Gamaka of the respective notes. When I tried to bring out this irrelevancy, funnily, I was accused 'irrelevant'. This is the real problem with the people who cannot differentiate or categorise or apply the Kampita & Gamaka to the present day music properly even though these two names are furnished in the relevant Shloka 'svarasya kampo gamakaha' distinctively. amsharma

nanosadagopan
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#37 Re: Gamaka

Post by nanosadagopan »

msakella wrote: 12 Feb 2021, 18:34 At this juncture except the singer's demo I do not have any other details and the singer's demo is not sung with any clarity bringing out the difference of pure or Kampita or Gamaka of the respective notes. When I tried to bring out this irrelevancy, funnily, I was accused 'irrelevant'. amsharma
You don't seem to get your basics right. You can comment on the product not on the model who is helping in bringing out the product.

To get all your other details, you can get the desktop product by emailing [email protected]. For android, check out Gamaka in Google play. It is all free. You can test and comment to your heart's content !

msakella
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#38 Re: Gamaka

Post by msakella »

This is not just to find fault with you but to save myself from committing such faults. amsharma

ramamatya
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#39 Re: Gamaka

Post by ramamatya »

Incidentally, the singer sang really well ! All you need to do is listen to the Sankarabharanam oscillations between SGRGRGR (detailed descriptive notation) for Ri and PSDSDSD (detailed descriptive notation) for Da. That was perfect Gamaka on Ri and Da. ma and Ni were likewise within the grammar oscillations of Sankarabharanam. Sa, Ga and Pa were held plain as how they should be.

The software shows the positions of the swaras as they are sung. Proof of the pudding. Now, whether the singer sings Carnatic gamakas or hindustani gamakas or even Western scales, it is immaterial. All that matters is whether the software captures the swarasthanas in a continuous mode as it is sung.

msakella
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#40 Re: Gamaka

Post by msakella »

As a professional Violin-accompanist having accompanied several Stalwarts and as the author of five books of their own kind and all supplied along with CDs I cannot agree with your finding. The singer sang S – P – S only correctly but not others. If you are particular to know the details kindly go through the full details of Kampitas and Gamakas furnished in my book ‘msakella’s Easy Methods in Learning Karnataka Music – 2007’ which you can get from ‘akella mallikarjuna sharma’ – Amazon. amsharma

ramamatya
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#41 Re: Gamaka

Post by ramamatya »

You may have played violin and accompanied stalwarts but please do not badmouth a singer who belongs to a 10th generation Parampara ! It's highly unprofessional to negatively criticize others in order to promote oneself.

msakella
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#42 Re: Gamaka

Post by msakella »

Of course, yes, I am very well aware that our people value Parampara only but not strict logic at all.
amsharma

msakella
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#43 Re: Gamaka

Post by msakella »

Most unfortunately, while demonstrating them, either our stalwarts or experts are unable to locate our Sampradaya-gamaka among our Great Panchadasha-gamakas. Why???

msakella
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#44 Re: Gamaka

Post by msakella »

More than 95% of our musicians are very highly egoistic and selfish. That is why many talented people are not being recognised and their talent is going waste.

Subbarama Dikshitar’s symbolized notation has become handy only to get Doctorates but not at all either to use it or propagate it or to develop it. We have plenty either to neglect the rare talent or to turn a blind-eye or to turn a deaf ear towards it.

Simultaneously people are also ready somehow to expose themselves in one way or the other to get the easy recognition in one way or the other.

When I have gone through the youtube video in the 31st post in which the notes of the Arohana and Avarohana of Shankarabharana are sung by a lady. Among them only Shadja and Panchama are sung without any oscillations and all other notes with one kind of oscillation or the other. It looks as if the singer has no proper knowledge of the Lakshana of 12 Swaragatasthanas and doesn’t have a well-disciplined way of rendering either the Kampitas or the Gamakas (refer the chapter ‘Kampitas and Gamakas’ of my book ‘msakella’s Easy Methods in Learning Karnataka Music-2007’ along with the respective audio-files– kindle version available from Amazon). msakella

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