Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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sridhar_ranga
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by sridhar_ranga »

Is the word Muttukkumaara occuring in Diskshitar's Bhaja re rechitta kriti ("guruguha rUpa muttukkumaara jananIm") a reference to himself by Diskshitar - an extended mudra? If so the case for Muttuswami gets strengthened.

But personally I don't find it jarring when I come across Diskshitar's name written as Mudduswami - the same goes for other regionally preferred variants such as Rugmini, ThanKappan, Thampi though we in TN are used to different spellings of all these names.

That said, isn't even 'Muttuswaami' a Sanskritized version of the name, not admissible in grammatical Tamil? Muttusaami, or a stricter Muttuchchaami is what Tamil pundits would approve :-)

shankar vaidyanathan
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by shankar vaidyanathan »

Another perspective is that we don't know in what language their parents originally named him. Written script might be different from phonetic irrespective of Telugu or Tamil origins. Our anglicised name writing is usually misguided as well. A subtle clue could be that he wasn't named Muthukumaraswami but simply Muthuswami.

pperumal
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by pperumal »

Sri kvchellappa,

I humbly request that we end this discussion please.
keerthi is clearly quoting solid evidence while you are more "empirical" in your argument ("sounds harsh", "is there anyone else like this?", etc.).

Clearly going by current evidence, keerthi is right here.

Let us please not extend an argument merely to have the last word on it please.

Thanks,
PP.

MaheshS
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by MaheshS »

pperumal wrote:Sri kvchellappa,

I humbly request that we end this discussion please.
keerthi is clearly quoting solid evidence while you are more "empirical" in your argument ("sounds harsh", "is there anyone else like this?", etc.).

Clearly going by current evidence, keerthi is right here.

Let us please not extend an argument merely to have the last word on it please.

Thanks,
PP.
Sorry, I am still not convinced, with all respects to Keerthi, there is no *solid* evidence. Seems all point to the grand Vaitheeswaran Koil where the diety is called Muthu Kumara Swamy. Let's look at the other son's as well.

Muthu Swamy - Muddu Swamy
Chinna Swamy - Chinni Swamy [?]
Balu Swamy - ???

And yes, it does sound harsh and yes there is no others named like him, what's wrong with the observation?

arunk
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by arunk »

I also feel that the evidence presented isnt as comprehensive.

Arguments for mudduswamy being not used among tamil folks aside, I also find it curious (and at times frustrating) that (here), we seem to not consider evidence in earlier tamil literature serious enough - or take it to silly levels using modern dravidian movement as a strawman's argument.

If we want to use evidence, it would be best to consider all that is applicable looking for multiple independent corroboration. If one wants to look for "muttu" as pearl vs other meanings in tamil (and thus usage in tamil land) to see its applicability for muttusvamy or muttukumaraswamy, for a period of use that is as recent as 18th century, I think one needs to look at references in tamil literature that preceded it. Ignoring that seems like massive gaping hole IMO.

I already pointed one out earlier (kumaraguruparar), which appears to have been completely ignored :-). Here are some meanings for muttu in tamil with references in tamil literature: http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/p ... splay=utf8. The second one implies beauty which I believe is what applies to the deity here (muruga/shanmukha being referred to as the beautiful one is a very common reference in Tamil), and yes this word is marked as a derivation from mugdha, but also note that usage is as early as in nammAzhvAr's periya tiruvandAdi. That predates the timeline here by atleast a millenium.

(Yes it is still possible with the influence in music in Tamil land by telugu kings also translates to names, and thus MD was named muddusvamy as a telugu-name, and this along with Subbarama Dikshitar's reference may still prove strong to establish it, even if it is at odds with other evidence, but the other contradictory evidence is still present and still strong).

Arun

MaheshS
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by MaheshS »

Apologies Arun, I did read and take into account your Kumaraguruparar reference! Is there any other reference to Muthu Kumara Swamy in Vaitheeswaran Koil prior to MD's time? Ala, pErAyiram paravi vAnOrEttum ... sung in praise of Vaidyanatha Swamy.

arunk
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by arunk »

Mahesh - I dont know. A more diligent search may reveal the answer (I found this reference itself by googling :-), but I already knew about the tamil lexicon website)

BTW, in case people are interested, I believe (?) the text of muttukkumArasvAmi piLLai thamizh is here: http://www.valaitamil.com/srikumarakuru ... _3050.html (it is in tamil script though)

Arun

arunk
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by arunk »

Mahesh,

From wiki (as well the book from which it was drawn):

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaitheeswaran_Koil (my emphasis below)
Inscriptions
The shrine of Vinayagar near the temple tank

The temple has five inscriptions mainly belonging to the period of Kulothunga Chola I (1070-1120 CE).[5] The inscription on the steps of Subramanya shrine records the shutter of the sluice at Sattainathapuram measures 35 inches in length and 8 inches in breadth.[4] The one on the right of the temple tank indicates the tank, Nachiyar shrine, and its hall were completely renovated when Kanderayar was governing the Sigali Simai, and during the management of the temple by Muthukumaraswami Tambiran, a disciple of Sivagnanadesikar-Sambandar of the Dharmapuram Adheenam.[4] On the wall of the second precinct, the inscriptions state that the courtyard of Thayalnayagi shrine, the sacred steps and Tattisuri hall were built during Tamil year 4868 corresponding to 1689 CE.[4] On the floor near accountant's seat registers a deed granted by Sankarabaragiri Rengopanditar by Ambalavanatambiran, an agent of the temple.[4] The Easter gateway inscription indicates the gift of taxes from Manipallam in Tiruvalipparu.[4]
The book i.e. reference [4] that the Wiki entry refers to is "South Indian Shrines: Illustrated - By P. V. Jagadisa Ayyar", and you can see the same content there (https://books.google.com/books?id=NLSGF ... an&f=false).

Of course, one could argue, even if the inscription (dated 11th-12th century) was in tamizh (this info i.e. that the inscription is in tamizh is in the book) and says muttukkumArsvAmi, why couldnt it have been pronounced muddu.... I would submit that the tamil lexicon references for the word muttu and its different connotations. And besides, this was during the period of cholas (i.e. not like the period during MD's birth when telugu did have a influence in music circles in some tamil-lands)

So this would be the current earliest reference to the name muttukumArasvAmi used in tamil land (here it doesnt refer to the deity though)

Correction: It appears NOT all inscriptions were around 11th-12th. Some I guess may be been 16th century. Not sure which is which.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 05 Nov 2015, 00:52, edited 1 time in total.

pvs
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by pvs »

Not to draw away, I wonder if muddu and muthu would have different spellings in Tamil (or other Dravida languages)?

arunk
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muddu vs muthu

Post by arunk »

In Tamil - no. In other dravidian languages - yes. In Tamil, the word muddu (as pronounced) doesnt exist (not also as an import also unlike many words imported). The word muttu (as pronounced) exist and has different connotations as indicated above - and one of them is most probably a cognate of telugu muddu as Keerthi indicated, and all the different usages are quite old as also indicated above.(much older than the specific time period in question - 18th century).

Again quite possible for a telugu based family in the tanjore delta area, or a family influenced by then prevailing times (e.g. during times when telugu had a significant presence), used "mudduswamy" and referred to the deity as muddukumArasvAmty. But as indicated above, in tamil usage (by tamil speaking folks) it would have been muttukumArasvAmy, and would have been a long time leading to this time period.

Arun

MaheshS
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by MaheshS »

Mods - worth moving this away from TMK's concert review? Technical Discussion maybe? Pedants, aren't we? :D

And as an aside topic, this Dravida - Arya concept itself is questionable. Far back, there is Sanskrit and then there is Tamil. Both borrowed words from each other. There is or was no evidence of any other language other than off-shoots and regional variations.

pvs
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by pvs »

@MaheshS
I used Dravida as to denote the south Indian as it has been used for a long time in Sanskrit. Sanskrit and Tamil are the only classical languages and everything else is a by-product.
I agree it's time to move on in this topic.

pperumal
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by pperumal »

pvs wrote:@MaheshS
Sanskrit and Tamil are the only classical languages and everything else is a by-product.
minor correction - there are 6 classical languages in India - not only Tamil (apart from Sanskrit).
being a tamilian myself (from nellai), i used to think so too..however, reality is not that I guess.

- PP.

kvchellappa
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by kvchellappa »

What is meant is internationally recognised classical languages.

pvs
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by pvs »

@pperumal
Thanks you. allow me to rephrase:
Sanskrit and Tamil are the oldest classical languages (by a good length) and everything else borrows generously from the two.

harimau
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by harimau »

pperumal wrote:
pvs wrote:@MaheshS
Sanskrit and Tamil are the only classical languages and everything else is a by-product.
minor correction - there are 6 classical languages in India - not only Tamil (apart from Sanskrit).
being a tamilian myself (from nellai), i used to think so too..however, reality is not that I guess.

- PP.
Just because the Central Government (under Manmohan Singh) declares a language to be a Classical Language to please a certain section of electorate doesn't make it so.

They may declare Urdu to be a Classical Language if they think it will get them the Muslim votes. :twisted:

arunk
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by arunk »

Not to divert the topic even further and risk devolving into a "my language is older and hence better than your language", recorded evidence supports that e.g. Telugu, Kannada etc. has been around for a long time also. Simply stating "everything came from Sanskrit", or "everything else came from Tamil and Sanskrit", without linguistic evidence supporting that (since the statements have everything to do with linguistics) are IMO hollow claims

Arun

harimau
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by harimau »

arunk wrote:Not to divert the topic even further and risk devolving into a "my language is older and hence better than your language", recorded evidence supports that e.g. Telugu, Kannada etc. has been around for a long time also. Simply stating "everything came from Sanskrit", or "everything else came from Tamil and Sanskrit", without linguistic evidence supporting that (since the statements have everything to do with linguistics) are IMO hollow claims

Arun
Archaic Tamil words are commonly used in Telugu even today.

You just need to look at the packets of milk distributed by the government milk cooperative. The name is "Aavin", meaning "from the cow" as "Aa" means "cow" though it is not in common use. In Telugu, it is "Aavu".

The word "cheppu" meaning "speak, say, talk, etc.," is not in use in Tamil anymore but is a common word in Telugu.

"Chaala" is very much a Tamil word though out of use but in Telugu it is in daily use. "Chaala bagunthi" would be the response if you ask someone how he is (unless of course he is a hypochondriac)!

One could go through a Telugu-Tamil dictionary and identify thousands of such words.

Linguists acknowledge that Telugu, Kannada, Tulu and Malayalam are offshoots of the Tamil language.

kvchellappa
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by kvchellappa »

Good attempt, but googling, I found that linguistically, it is not clear-cut. All that seems to be agreed is that Tamizh and Telugu are allied and possibly 'pangalis'. Tamizh is recognised as a classical language and not others (save Samskritham) because ancient classics in Tamizh have survived. Interestingly, Tamizh seems to be the only classical language that is lingua franca not only in Tamizh Nadu, but in some other pockets also. All this, however, does not provide horns to Tamizh speaking people. Kalidasa set aside the claim that old is gold.

shankarank
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Re: T.M. Krishna at Shankara Mutt, Malleshwaram, Bangalore - Oct 17, 2015

Post by shankarank »

MaheshS wrote:Rao garu, wasn't it also because he went to Vaitheeswaran Koil and prayed for a boy in the shrine of Muruga there? Murugan is called Muthukumara Swamy in Vaitheeswaran Koil. This is also mentioned in Subarama Dikshitar's Vagyekara Charitham.
"BhajarE rE citta" in kalyAni on the Goddess at vaidya puri , has "rUpa muttu ( muddu) kumAra jananIm" line that people can look at various books (and pATantarams) to see how it is spelt.

<<< I didn't notice that this has already been mentioned in previous posts !!>>

I remember Ranga Ramunaja Iyengar in his kriti maNi mAlai translation section noting - muttu (muddu) is not a samskrita word; tan peyarai ninaitapadi ezhutinAr pOlum! - i.e. he wrote it thinking his name!

And that is probably one of the few words Samskritam absorbed from other languages? :) muttAi kidaitta onru! (rare gem or pearl!) :lol: Murugan is a tamizh kadaVuL - his name cannot be translated into Samskrit :lol:
Last edited by shankarank on 08 Nov 2015, 23:16, edited 2 times in total.

shankarank
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by shankarank »

Now "kumAra" is also external according to Witzel!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratu ... c_Sanskrit

kvchellappa
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by kvchellappa »

A piece of info. Today Nada Neerajanam (a programme by SVBC from Andhra Pradesh) telecast a special programme on Dikshithar krthis by Dr RV and Kuzhu. They had spelt 'Muthuswamy both in English and Telugu.

Govindaswamy
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by Govindaswamy »

However they spelt his name as Muthuswami dIkshitaar.

harimau
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by harimau »

Anything is fine.

So long as it is not Muchami! :lol:

Ponbhairavi
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by Ponbhairavi »

wedding reception dinner. the server Muthu is busy
-Annavukku “ razam “ -mysore “razam ΅ - then next:
-annavukku “aBBaLaam “ one more -äBBaLaam “
the chief cook who was watching and supervising shouted
-”daaye, Muthu, it is not aBBaLaam azhuthi solluda aPPaLaam “
Muthu replied : “azhuthinaal noRingi poydume anna “

kvchellappa
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by kvchellappa »

Now, I get it. We should be careful to preserve Mudduswamy.

MaheshS
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by MaheshS »

So I was reading Mahaperiyava's commentary on Sri Subramanyaya Namasthe [Link], and he says the following,
Muthuswami Dikshitar has much connection with Subrahmanya. He has been to, and sung in praise of, many kshetras and Gods, just as Adisankara has. But in his devotion (upAsanA), he has been known to be a 'dEvi upAsakA' - he even breathed his last singing 'mIna lOchani pAcha espressoni' on Meenakshi. But his birth, beginning of his composing career, were are all associated with Subrahmanya.

His very name, Muthuswami, is that of Muthukumaraswami, the deity at Vaidheeswaran koil. His father, Ramaswami Dikshitar - scholar, musician and Srividya devotee - was without an issue till he was forty. He visited Vaidheeswaran koil with his wife and fasted for 45 days (one mandalam). His wife then had a dream as if someone was tying coconut, fruits and other 'mangalavastu' on her womb. And soon she became pregnant. The couple understood that Subrahmanya had granted their wish and that the dream meant this. And a boy was born on 'krithikai' day in the month of Phalguni or Panguni. That boy was Muthuswami.

hanquill
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by hanquill »

I think it is better to have our discussion on music only than too much branching off..Great scholar (late) uesed to tell as.Muthuswamy Dikskhithar.only.I think it is time to conclude.

hanquill
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by hanquill »

Sorry ommision:great scholar Dr.srivatsa.

thanjavooran
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by thanjavooran »

As per Jaya TV ' s slide shown on the song list of Rajesh Vaidhya's veena program today it is Muthu Kumarasami DIkshadar.
Thanjavooran
06 01 2016

rshankar
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by rshankar »

Sri Tanjavooran - spellings on TV, CD/DVD/cassette sleeves are not worth the paper/screen they're written on. It doesn't mean anything at all, and its authenticity is questionable at best....

GloriainExcelsisDeo
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by GloriainExcelsisDeo »

To the wide ranging and lofty earlier posts from 3 years ago, I would like to add my ONE cent:

Please see NBT's 1968 Dikshitar biography by TL Venkatarama Aiyar. It clearly traces Dikshitar's lineage from 2 generations earlier, from Virinchipuram (Vellore area). This biography in the first few pages explains the family tradition about his birth including his naming., the forty days puja at Vaitheeswaran Kovil, the Devi appearing in a dream presenting a muktaahaaram and the self reference in Bhaja re re. Please read the preface, and then the first 5 pages. The cavalry attack mentioned there sounds like one during the Carnatic wars, which ended in 1763. The preface gives the author's momentous meeting with Ambi Dikshitar aka Muthuswami Dikshitar, the son of Subbarama Dikshitar, at Ettayapuram in 1931. Ambi Dikshitar was named after his ancestor, Muthuswami. Sounds quite authentic. People were just freer with spelling and terminology in earlier times. Since the NBT book was printed for a national or global audience, the kriti is listed in Devanagari (apparently with the chh to satisfy sandhi). Btw Dikshitar has used many "non" dictionary words. One example are the Tantric syllables in many kritis. So using a Tamil name as such, as it is his personal name, could be the case. Rangaramanuja Iyengar's comment that someone quoted above from the Tamil book, would therefore IMHO surprise me as to the need of it being noteworthy.

I cannot comment on so many learned authors using Mudduswami in their works. Of two people, I can say something. Rangaramanuja Iyengar ploughed a lonely furrow. He did tremendous work but he was also highly opinionated in his time, railing against Sabhas and Carnatic music reaching out to the public and so forth. Including he, authors were not as precise as the modern day in terminology and usage. TKG's compilations are terrific references. But, I know from people who helped him with Telugu and Sanskrit in the 90s, that his grasp of the different languages was not expert level. This was when he was getting his books ready for publication in final form, that is not even an initial draft when you are testing the water, but close to completion. Even so, some errors have definitely come into his books. So I would not take his, as the last word on the "Muthuswami" question.

To me, the NBT book seems convincing enough that it is Muthuswami. If you don't like it, can I have my one cent back :)

GloriainExcelsisDeo
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by GloriainExcelsisDeo »

Would like to add a couple of things for completion: TL Venkatarama Aiyar was the one who brought Ambi Dikshitar to Chennai, as he says so in the preface. He goes to great lengths to say repeatedly that there is little direct evidence of anything and the Dikshitar legends being many, he will restrict himself to those where there is a clear family tradition of an incident, and there is something else like a putative reference in a kriti to support it. The book mentions the patronage of the Manali Mudaliar of the day to Ramaswami Dikshitar, but does not mention the kanakabishekam incident. It also refers to the later Manali Mudaliar (AKC) of the "staff notation" fame, and adds a few details about the family like being dubashes but does not note when they turned Christian, which is germane to their still supporting Carnatic music. The book also clearly states the family had always been Tamil by saying so, and also by being silent about something: families transplanted into Tamil country those days, did remember their antecedents, like Kakarla for Tyagaraja. The patashala where Ramaswami Dikshitar first studied, seems to be the Rajavedapatashala set up by Govinda Dikshitar, who was of Kannada Smartha origin. No such details being given, from direct family tradition, safe to way they were Tamil all along, and so no reason to disbelieve it is Muthuswami.
GloriainExcelsisDeo wrote: 26 Oct 2018, 14:57 To the wide ranging and lofty earlier posts from 3 years ago, I would like to add my ONE cent:

Please see NBT's 1968 Dikshitar biography by TL Venkatarama Aiyar. It clearly traces Dikshitar's lineage from 2 generations earlier, from Virinchipuram (Vellore area). This biography in the first few pages explains the family tradition about his birth including his naming., the forty days puja at Vaitheeswaran Kovil, the Devi appearing in a dream presenting a muktaahaaram and the self reference in Bhaja re re. Please read the preface, and then the first 5 pages. The cavalry attack mentioned there sounds like one during the Carnatic wars, which ended in 1763. The preface gives the author's momentous meeting with Ambi Dikshitar aka Muthuswami Dikshitar, the son of Subbarama Dikshitar, at Ettayapuram in 1931. Ambi Dikshitar was named after his ancestor, Muthuswami. Sounds quite authentic. People were just freer with spelling and terminology in earlier times. Since the NBT book was printed for a national or global audience, the kriti is listed in Devanagari (apparently with the chh to satisfy sandhi). Btw Dikshitar has used many "non" dictionary words. One example are the Tantric syllables in many kritis. So using a Tamil name as such, as it is his personal name, could be the case. Rangaramanuja Iyengar's comment that someone quoted above from the Tamil book, would therefore IMHO surprise me as to the need of it being noteworthy.

I cannot comment on so many learned authors using Mudduswami in their works. Of two people, I can say something. Rangaramanuja Iyengar ploughed a lonely furrow. He did tremendous work but he was also highly opinionated in his time, railing against Sabhas and Carnatic music reaching out to the public and so forth. Including he, authors were not as precise as the modern day in terminology and usage. TKG's compilations are terrific references. But, I know from people who helped him with Telugu and Sanskrit in the 90s, that his grasp of the different languages was not expert level. This was when he was getting his books ready for publication in final form, that is not even an initial draft when you are testing the water, but close to completion. Even so, some errors have definitely come into his books. So I would not take his, as the last word on the "Muthuswami" question.

To me, the NBT book seems convincing enough that it is Muthuswami. If you don't like it, can I have my one cent back :)

GloriainExcelsisDeo
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Re: Mudduswamy or Mutthuswamy Dikshithar

Post by GloriainExcelsisDeo »

Long story short, the naming history of Dikshitar aside, in writing from South Indians in the early part of the last century, particularly of the erstwhile Madras Presidency, I have come across other muthus, whose names are given as muddu in English, but as muthu in Tamil, and heard people of those times, who are nonagenarians now, simply read "muddu" and pronounce it as "muthu". My point is, there are two issues here. How was Dikshitar named? and What are the relevant spelling conventions? Dikshitar as per Ambi Dikshitar was named after Muthukumaraswami, or Muthuswami for short. Muddu is just an alternate, older English spelling for muthu, like neo and new, connexion and connection, from a time when they put up with Trichinopoly, Tinnevelly and Trivandrum. We just wouldn't write Mudduswami in the present day. That seems to be all there is to it.

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