Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
Post Reply
uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

I posted this many years back in rasikas but it may still be interesting, given all the discussions in various threads:

So basically, I recorded a raga on chitravina using a laptop with tambura shruti on headphones, so the recording only records the instrument track. While at it, I did a little shruti bhedam (with only minimal "cheating" as to the sancharas/prayogas of the raga !) Then the parent raga track was mixed in with the original shruti and the "shruti-bhedam" portion of the track plucked out and mixed in with the "new" shruti to create the child track.


So here's the parent track mixed in with the correct shruti:
https://soundcloud.com/uday-shankar-10/ ... arent-raga


And here's the child track plucked out of the parent and mixed in with the new shruti:
https://soundcloud.com/uday-shankar-10/ ... child-raga


"Quiz" can be two ways:

1) Listen to the parent raga and identify where the "child" raga occurs, and what it is. Then listen to the "child" raga and confirm.

2) Alternatively listen to the "child" track and guess what parent it came from...listen and confirm. This may be more interesting.

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

Bhairavi (NataBhairavi) -> Gandharam -> Mukhari (Karaharapriya) ?

*** (Edit) Correction from Madyamam instead of Gandharam - I am working backwards as I seem to hear Mukhari on Child ragA
Last edited by shankarank on 17 Jan 2016, 03:17, edited 2 times in total.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I remember this from before Uday. One of the dramatic illustration and demonstration of bedams of this kind.

The result this time is: I can not tell where the sruthi bedam occurs is in the parent track. I was just listening just like I would in a concert
From the child track, with the new sruthi background sound, the new raga is quite evident. I will not spoil it here but once I heard the new raga, the old discussions came back to my mind
Went back and listened to the parent track again. Still just listening and not looking intently for graha bedam. Could not detect it.

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

Madyamam would make sense - as not much Sruti mis-alignment can be heard as it is just Madyama Sruthi of parent Sruthi!

Assuming I am right (hopefully) - next quiz would be why did I initially make the mistake of saying Gandharam instead of Madyamam?

Hint: I used the formula San - kara- todi - Kal - Hari - naTa - quite blindly forgetting something.

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

At 1:24 on the parent track where he dwells on Ma. Then some cheating happens starting 1:46

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

Ok - take that back. That is punnagavarali from pancamam (todi). kanaka saila is pretty evident!. I guess Ma moves much in bhairavi - hence cannot be the shifting base?

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

So while the shift occurs in Pancamam - the phrasing includes Madyamam and he dwells on Ma - to account for N2 - N2 sancara of punnAgavarALi. So this is quite a dangling Sruthi bhEdam :lol:

The dwelling on Ma did mislead me a bit.

My addendum to the quiz is still relevant as it is not directly related to my mistake as we still need to substantiate why tOdi is from pancamam.

As regards cheating - some anya Gamaka or anya swara - yet to figure that out.

asaiyum poruL niRkavum - ninRa poruL asaiyavum - kETTOmE oru dEva gAnam!

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank wrote:As regards cheating - some anya Gamaka or anya swara - yet to figure that out.
No anya gamaka or anya swara. Only a non-standard Bhairavi phrase :).

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote:
shankarank wrote:As regards cheating - some anya Gamaka or anya swara - yet to figure that out.
No anya gamaka or anya swara. Only a non-standard Bhairavi phrase :).
punnAgavarALi has two, double headed gamakas for R1 one from G2 and one from Sa as it slides down. So you played a mAnji phrase or something? Wild guess!

Another Guess: The elder of Malladi brothers mentions two riShabAs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q-PvHlbEhI - not sure if they mean R2 or R1 handled two ways - so does punnAgavarALi touch R2 from G2 side? So you used D2 /D1 combo to do something?

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

Cannot be - the use of R2 would make it a one double headed venomous snake! And I cannot hear it. But lakshna can defy common perception - so I just asked.

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

Just reviewing that video again - see that it has R2 on ascent - so that would be a proper Sruthi bhedam from bhairavi pancamam. Thought they meant R2 on descent also. So non standard phrase must be a Manji phrase then?

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

shankarank

The one anya prayoga, perhaps with an anya gamaka embedded in it, as far as Bhairavi is concerned, is "D2 N2, S R2 G2 R2, S etc" which occurs no less than four times at:

1:44
1:54
2:08
2:15
(above timings in the parent track)

In Bhairavi, we never sweep past the S in that odd fashion, that too with a gamakam on it !

But in the Punnagavarali "mapping" this translates to "R2 G2, M1 P D1 P2, M1 etc". wherein the gamaka is on M1 and the phrase is characteristic prayoga of the raga.

Other than that there is nothing there that violates the spirit of Bhairavi. The phrase P D1 N2, D1 D1 P,, is allowed in Bhairavi and is identical to S R1 G2,, R1 R1 S,, in the Punnagavarali mapping.

I could have made it "purer" Bhairavi by executing that phrase without the gamaka on the shadja but giving a little kaarvai there but then would have lost out on the Punnagavarali bit !

These are some of the trade-offs of Shruti Bhedam. Of course, things can get quite hairy if Ghanta is involved. Someday when I have the time and if there is interest, I will think of the various possibilities in Ghanta !

I am happy that VK still hears good enough Bhairavi in the parent track. Perhaps he is willing to gloss over the non-standard phrasing ?!

PS: As far as the Bhairavi-Manji debate is concerned I am an agnostic :).

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by sureshvv »

FWIW I thought it was pretty obvious Bhairavi - Punnagavarali. So you kept the flavors of the raga quite in tact.

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

uday_shankar wrote:shankarank

The one anya prayoga, perhaps with an anya gamaka embedded in it, as far as Bhairavi is concerned, is "D2 N2, S R2 G2 R2, S etc" which occurs no less than four times at:

1:44
1:54
2:08
2:15
(above timings in the parent track)

In Bhairavi, we never sweep past the S in that odd fashion, that too with a gamakam on it !

But in the Punnagavarali "mapping" this translates to "R2 G2, M1 P D1 P2, M1 etc". wherein the gamaka is on M1 and the phrase is characteristic prayoga of the raga.
So you tamed the vakra coiling to make it a more pliable snake eh!? :lol:

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by vasanthakokilam »

:)

As Gayatri says in the lec demo, I guess showing enough to project the new raga is sufficient. That is an aspect I did not pay specific attention to before, that in some cases only a subset of the new raga would be possible given the constraints.

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

QUIZ #3: (we're going backwards, since the last one was quiz #4).

OK here's the next one, again a blast from the past...fortunately I had it all saved on a hard disk, circa 2009 !

Same method...RECORDED using original shruti in headphones and then mixed in shruti tracks for parent and fake segments.

This time I'm playing a bhansuri (next one on yet another instrument, no not the chitravenu :) ).

PARENT TRACK:
https://soundcloud.com/uday-shankar-10/ ... arent-raga

CHILD TRACK:
https://soundcloud.com/uday-shankar-10/ ... child-raga

This time no "cheating" whatever, but then I don't know if the parent is a "serious" raga anyways !

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Uday, on quiz 4, your time markers helped to hear the child raga but later on after listening to the child track again and then listened to the parent track the child raga was brought to focus even more. I will be one of those in the concert hall, when everyone goes 'ada da.. cha.. cha.. cha' at such a GB,who look here and there with a startled look as to what elicited that reaction :)

anandmurty
Posts: 32
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:03

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by anandmurty »

Had the same response as Vasanthakokilam in Quiz #4. It was Bhairavi through and through for me. I did get a certain 'ehsaas' that something was up at certain points, but couldn't pull away from the parent to notice the child sufficiently.

Quiz #3 makes me feel like 'chalo, at least this question was nailed!'. I actually remember this one from way back Uday.
And given the way Pantula Rama unleashes a neraval in the parent raga, I consider it very 'serious' indeed! :)

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

anandmurty wrote:I consider it very 'serious' indeed! :)
But how can you take something seriously "jo Bandarpunch se shuroo hoti hai" ?!

GNB_LGJ_PR
Posts: 55
Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 22:38

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by GNB_LGJ_PR »

Yamuna Kalyani - Parent "serious" raga :D

Bilahari - Child - GB at Pa

Am not aware of the earlier quizzes so this is my first attempt. :)

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Sounds right GNB_LGJ_PR.

Let me repeat what I had written a few times before. We discuss topics in our forum before, during and after the same topic is done at the MA lec dem during the season and at much more detail. Of course this is not to reduce the usefulness of what Gayathri ( of RaGa ) did at at 2015 MA Lec-Dec on graha bedam. In fact the thought occurred to me that even they will be impressed with the demonstrations of Uday.

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

vasanthakokilam wrote:We discuss topics in our forum before, during and after the same topic is done at the MA lec dem during the season
And repeat them...the dosa gets really crisp as the maavu is "arachufied" over and over again :D.

Since Quiz #3 is out, here's the next one...this time there is not cherry picking of segments...the whole segment is mixed in with two different shrutis giving the roopa of two different ragas :). Suggestion: Listen to the parent first and then try to guess the child (assuming the parent is obvious :)) . These were recorded with an acoustic guitar, the instrument that was handily available at the time.

Quiz #2:

Parent track:
https://soundcloud.com/uday-shankar-10/ ... arent-raga

Child track:
https://soundcloud.com/uday-shankar-10/ ... child-raga

This time the child raga is certainly not a serious one.

GNB_LGJ_PR
Posts: 55
Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 22:38

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by GNB_LGJ_PR »

Parent Raga - Surutti

Child Raga - I heard Surutti only :?: - however I think you were trying GB at Ri hence Hindolam (carefully avoiding dha in the descent of Surutti)

My humble thoughts on GB - For GB to be effective (at least for the lay listener) the Sa of the parent raga has to be eschewed in the child(stop Tambura
as well for that brief while)

Only after attending the GB lec-dem at MA this season did I figure out what TNS did in a 1983 US concert in a Shubhapantuvarali RTP.
All along I was wondering that the aforesaid parent raga does not give rise to any of the other 71 melakarthas in a GB and how he managed
to do a GB in this raga.

Gayathri demonstrated the same Shubhapantuvarali example. RGMDNR of Shubhapantuvarali corresponds to SRMPNS of Madhyamavathi,
GMDNRG corresponds to SGMDNS of Hindolam and so on.

Really helps leaving out the Sa and Pa :)

Another such example is Thodi to Mohanam in GNB's Thodi RTP's

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

GNB_LGJ_PR wrote:Child Raga - I heard Surutti only :?: - however I think you were trying GB at Ri hence Hindolam (carefully avoiding dha in the descent of Surutti)
Try listening to the child track tomorrow with a fresh mind and focus on its shruti rather than any preconceived notion of Suratti :). The "truth" will come in a flash :).

Hopefully nobody will let the cat out of the bag.

ramakriya
Posts: 1876
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by ramakriya »

Good to see this thread resurrected. Uday, I still have some of your original files on my hard disk :) I know it was the time when no soundcloud existed!

GNB_LGJ_PR
Posts: 55
Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 22:38

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by GNB_LGJ_PR »

Please confirm that parent raga is Suratti - else I run the risk of a wrong guess ;)

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

Confirmed !

GNB_LGJ_PR
Posts: 55
Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 22:38

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by GNB_LGJ_PR »

At the risk of being wrong a second time I hereby guess the child to be Mohana Kalyani

Downside of a wrong guess are that one does not know both the correct and the wrongly guessed ragas. :lol:

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

GNB_LGJ_PR wrote:I hereby guess the child to be Mohana Kalyani
Confirmed !

This clip was so short that the entire clip was used for both parent and child track, unlike the others where the GB segment was plucked out and mixed in with a different background shruti.

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10956
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Good job GNB_et al.. As instructed by Uday, I listened with a fresh mind and Surutti disappeared and another raga emerged. It sounded a bit like Mohanam but not quite.. But I could not pin it down to Mohana Kalyani. That is shameful, I love that raga. Let me listen to that again.

Edit: I listened again, I heard Kalyani and Mohanam in separate segments.

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by uday_shankar »

vasanthakokilam wrote:I heard Kalyani and Mohanam in separate segments.
Yeah, it's a pretty crappy Mohana Kalyani although not "wrong" in any way !

GNB_LGJ_PR
Posts: 55
Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 22:38

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by GNB_LGJ_PR »

Day 1 : The problem for me was that I heard Suratti only and then hurriedly went about wrongly guessing the child to be Hindolam because my mind wanted to hear what it wanted to hear - never focused on shruti

Day 2: I heard only Mohana Kalyani on both parent and child tracks when Uday suggested to hear with a "fresh" mind. :lol:
I could not hear Suratti at all. I thought Uday was playing a game on Soundcloud by swapping tracks in and out and cheating all of us ;)

Day 3: I patiently listened to the tracks and got it right (only after confirming that parent was Suratti)

Thanks Uday for this quiz.

GNB_LGJ_PR
Posts: 55
Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 22:38

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by GNB_LGJ_PR »

uday_shankar wrote: Quiz #2:

Parent track:
https://soundcloud.com/uday-shankar-10/ ... arent-raga

Child track:
https://soundcloud.com/uday-shankar-10/ ... child-raga

This time the child raga is certainly not a serious one.

VK : You were not so serious about the "not a serious one" - Mohanam and Kalyani are "Serious" I thought ;)

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Shruti Bhedam quizzes revisited

Post by shankarank »

An Alapana is begin with the Sruti bhEdam of Post #1 ( dangling! around 'pA') right at the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TeTjlVfJEE

Post Reply