Is raga naturally occurring?

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
kvchellappa
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#26 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by kvchellappa » 14 Jun 2016, 09:55

Read this recently:
"If art aims, in some instances, at a perfect imitation of nature, that does not circumscribe its limits: it may also produce what can nowhere be found in nature, putting in one object an assemblage of graces or excellences which are not found in such perfection in any real object."
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munirao2001
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#27 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by munirao2001 » 21 Jun 2016, 14:05

KVC, Today, by chance noticed this thread and read the discussions.
Shabda, Akshara are discussed in Vedas and Upanishads. They gave identities of Anaahata and Aahata for the primordial sound and for the 'discovered or captured' sound. Abstract primordial sound in frequencies in universal nature was objectified in 'OM kara', A-U-M representing A, existence, M, non existence, U, unity of both, in transcendence, divine in nature and pure in quality. Anaahata shabda is in human pure conscious and body in the flow of the blood with the rhythm of naadi, pulse, seated in heart as antaryamin, goohya, secretive and as sakshin, witness. Human, a seeker, experiences the divine presence and struggles to establish identity. His discovery of pranava naada, within self consciousness and universal consciousness rises to inner and outer consciousness with shabda, sound and akshara, its form in word expression and communication. Purely subjective experience in relation with objective, internal and external experiences results in to flow or stream of sounds rhythmically in saama gana. Saama gana leads to further experience of gaayana and gaayana as a creative output with the cognition of anaahata and discovery expressed in aahata in the form of svara and svaraakshara-note and rhythmical form of the note, in togetherness. Human with higher sensitivity and observation seeks and establishes the relationships of discovered shabda, naada with nature and its creative works of soundarya, aesthetic, but mute. The creativity urge results in establishing the relationship between emotions and aesthetic. In establishing the relationship, new creativity of yoga, union of sounds, notes, pitches, scales, songs and singing. In establishing the lakshana-science for the lakshya, art, similar to sruti and smriti of sacred texts. Now, raga. Raga is derived from ranj, color in manifestation either in svaras in a scale or words in a lyric as aesthetic of varying in nature but distinct in recognition and identity, identity of emotions and emotions relationship with color-light to bold; dark to bright; light and enlightening in strike and occurrence. Abstract aesthetic,in anaahata naada, in universal conscious discovered by a creator-artist and given form and identity in svaras, scale and pitch, established as aahata-emanation of anaahata with sanchari bhaavam, aesthetic movements described as ranj, color and in mutation, raga, melody. Raga is abstract aesthetic in nature, divine and human nature, in color rising to a raga, a melody, distinct in given form, identity and its experience felt and partaken, its unity in creativity and recreativity. Its soundarya, beauty is natural in occurrence and its bhavana and bhaava are discoveries, expressed and explained as creations.

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kvchellappa
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#28 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by kvchellappa » 21 Jun 2016, 16:04

Thank you, Sri Muni Rao.
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munirao2001
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#29 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by munirao2001 » 21 Jun 2016, 17:27

KVC Sir, Yet another of my observation in my study of Vedas and Upanishads for the musicology is relationship of Svaras 'Sa-Pa-Sa' with the line of teachers-verily first- Samaga, Pratyandina and Sanatana, not in conformity with the popular statement in publications. It is similar to the identity given as 'Santana Dharma' to religious principles and practices in Vedic times. Owing to the advancing age, I am not sure whether I can complete my research and study of this nature and magnitude.

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shankarank
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#30 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by shankarank » 21 Jun 2016, 19:51

Sri Munirao ,

It would benefit one and all if you requested a blog access in this forum and convert some of your posts to a central blog in this forum.

Thanks.
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Ananth
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#31 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by Ananth » 29 Jul 2016, 10:01

We see many new comers to Indian classical music struggle with the concept of raga itself (probably the most frequently asked question about CM and HM). They understand tune but raga seems more abstract to them. Probably this abstractness of the concept of raga, is what makes us think, ragas are (more) natural.

Let's start with one thing which is man made: scalar ragas. Many of these were created to fill a gap (72 ragas scheme). Some were born out of a specific individual's melodic imagination.

In contrast, we have rakti ragas which are definitely older, but are they naturally occurring? Were they always there? And only discovered by humans?

Now, we have seen the evolution of some of the scalar ragas. This happened through man-made compositions that interpreted these scalar ragas and gave them more shape and scope. This is a continuous process. The reverse also happens, some ragas which were very popular in an earlier century, fade out or even become extinct. I'm sure there would be examples.

Now, can we surmise that this evolution was what happened with some of the already-rakti ragas also? Take Ananda bhairavi. Before Syama Sastri and Thyagaraja, was Ananda bhairavi as evolved as it is now? Was it always there?

I'd lean towards the idea that, even rakti ragas were not always there but developed over a period of time; may be not attributable to one individual but surely human contribution was there towards the evolution. May be we can call it "collective artistic evolution", but surely it's not natural, it's man made.

What is definitely natural, are things such as octaves and half-octave (fifth), I cannot imagine some one inventing these ideas. They are as natural as naadham.
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munirao2001
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#32 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by munirao2001 » 02 Aug 2016, 09:24

Ananth Sir,

There are two aspects in human creativity-One, discovery and Second, invention. Discovery is related with priori or pre existence but not in sensory experiences. Many discoveries with empirical evidence gets established what was in nature. In Indian Classical Music lakshya is related with anaahata and abstract in nature, creating unending opportunities for imagination, ideation and creativity-discoveries and establishing the identities. Lakshana is related with innovation and empirical evidence with established structure and form. Janaka and janya ragas are the identities established for discoveries and innovation. Human urge, interest and drive are in seeing the unseen, knowing and unknown and knowing more of the the known. Human nature and nature in unity and in transcendence results in discoveries and innovations.

Let us take one example of raga Mahati of Great genius and Great Maestro Dr.BMK. Claim and disclaim discussions took place amidst the practitioners. The conclusion was it was creativity-innovation and not creativity-discovery. Discovery in establishment of identity rests primarily on the truth of anew, original in creativity and afresh, variant but uniqueness of the original in re creativity.

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Ananth
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#33 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by Ananth » 02 Aug 2016, 14:57

Sri Munirao,

Totally agree with you about discovery / invention / innovation. Human endeavour definitely contributes to evolution of music.
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kvchellappa
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#34 Re: Is raga naturally occurring?

Post by kvchellappa » 30 Nov 2016, 18:34

The origin of music: Gayatri Madan Dutt
Bhavan’s journal (Nov 15, 2016)
Excerpts
Many researchers speculate that music and language arose side by side, since all languages have some type of ‘song’, either tones or intonation. Others suggest that music may have preceded language, or that music may, indeed, have been the first language.
..song originated separately, and several times, within a variety of species. There is song among whales and dolphins, among songbirds, and even crickets!
..stirring quality of their (gibbons’) songs is brought out in a Chinese poem.
These emotion-evoking gibbon calls are being studied by scientists since it is thought that they may be linked to the evolution of human song.
..Nigel Osborne..believes that aalaap with which an Indian classical music performance begins, represents a very ancient form of communication between human beings which existed even before language. .. After the aalaap, he says, the noe structure becomes slowly more sophisticated till it reaches a high level of abstraction and design which is both intellectual and emotional. The sequence of an Indian performance appears to trace in a nutshell, the journey of human music from origin to culmination.
..Yehudi Menuhin also commented on the possible origin of music in ancient India.
..Alaine Danielou wrote, ‘A skilled Indian classical musician can lead the audience to depth and intensity of feeling undreamt of in other musical systems’.
Arrian: ‘No nation is fonder of singing and dancing than the Indian’.
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