True. Layam essentially is best brought out when internalised.
Sathej
Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
-
krishnaprasad
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 02 Mar 2009, 11:59
-
srinivasrgvn
- Posts: 1013
- Joined: 30 Nov 2008, 07:46
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Now the interesting question is, can someone who does not have it internally train oneself to have great laya skills?
Let us not consider musicians but just interested rasikas.
As you may have observed, it is easy to keep beat to the common film and pop songs. That is laya skill too but the laya of the song matches very
closely with the beats. So the song automatically guides you to be in the beat and also does not distract you from the beats.
With CM, that is not the case. The built-in layam of the song and the beats do not necessarily align on every beat. They do enough number of times alright
but those who are not used to it will get side tracked when they start following the stresses of the song. That will take them away from the beat. You can see that
more in the thani during sections of high syncopation.
To a large extent, that instinct to follow the stresses of the song is very natural. So laya training is to get over that natural inclination and keep to a steady metronomic
beat. I feel one can train oneself to do that and I would like to hear others' experiences and opinions on this.
This difficulty is similar in principle to the natural difficulty most of us have to perform this simple exercise:
Tap your head with one hand and rub your tummy with the other.
With some conscious effort you can fight that natural inclination for both hands to be doing the same movement.
Laya training, in principle is similar to that. ( I am sure the mridangists have to get over that natural left hand - right hand synchrony and make them move independently. )
Let us not consider musicians but just interested rasikas.
As you may have observed, it is easy to keep beat to the common film and pop songs. That is laya skill too but the laya of the song matches very
closely with the beats. So the song automatically guides you to be in the beat and also does not distract you from the beats.
With CM, that is not the case. The built-in layam of the song and the beats do not necessarily align on every beat. They do enough number of times alright
but those who are not used to it will get side tracked when they start following the stresses of the song. That will take them away from the beat. You can see that
more in the thani during sections of high syncopation.
To a large extent, that instinct to follow the stresses of the song is very natural. So laya training is to get over that natural inclination and keep to a steady metronomic
beat. I feel one can train oneself to do that and I would like to hear others' experiences and opinions on this.
This difficulty is similar in principle to the natural difficulty most of us have to perform this simple exercise:
Tap your head with one hand and rub your tummy with the other.
With some conscious effort you can fight that natural inclination for both hands to be doing the same movement.
Laya training, in principle is similar to that. ( I am sure the mridangists have to get over that natural left hand - right hand synchrony and make them move independently. )
-
girish_a
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33
One of the things that has intrigued me is that most Mridangists don't have a problem with laya. So if I were to learn to play the Mridangam, will my laya problems go away?
Another helpful tip which I picked up at work, in a training on presentation skills, is that if you watch yourself speak, you get a better perspective of your current abilities as a speaker. They had arranged for participants in that session to be recorded on video, and later played the recording back to the participants. I could easily figure out what I was doing wrong.
I recently did the same thing at home. I had someone record my flute-playing, and when I watched the recording later, I could recognize the places where I faltered with the Taala. That gave me a better perspective on how and where I could go wrong.
Of late, one of the things that I have been trying to do is to mentally dissociate my taala-keeping from the corresponding composition. It is as if your body is acting independently of your mind. It involves consciously working on your motor skills while letting the song flow uninterrupted in your head. My method is to start off on a long swara phrase with a simple raga like Hamsadhwani and an anchor phrase like "Vaatapi Ganapatim". I don't bother much about ending the swara at the right beat - that is for later. I just concentrate on keeping the beats evenly spaced. But the problem with this approach is that you are alone and there is no one to tell you if you kept the beat correctly. I can't go for video recording every time. It is a bit of a hassle.
Another helpful tip which I picked up at work, in a training on presentation skills, is that if you watch yourself speak, you get a better perspective of your current abilities as a speaker. They had arranged for participants in that session to be recorded on video, and later played the recording back to the participants. I could easily figure out what I was doing wrong.
I recently did the same thing at home. I had someone record my flute-playing, and when I watched the recording later, I could recognize the places where I faltered with the Taala. That gave me a better perspective on how and where I could go wrong.
Of late, one of the things that I have been trying to do is to mentally dissociate my taala-keeping from the corresponding composition. It is as if your body is acting independently of your mind. It involves consciously working on your motor skills while letting the song flow uninterrupted in your head. My method is to start off on a long swara phrase with a simple raga like Hamsadhwani and an anchor phrase like "Vaatapi Ganapatim". I don't bother much about ending the swara at the right beat - that is for later. I just concentrate on keeping the beats evenly spaced. But the problem with this approach is that you are alone and there is no one to tell you if you kept the beat correctly. I can't go for video recording every time. It is a bit of a hassle.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
girish, that disassociation is a good idea and it is along the lines I am thinking of. ( rubbing the tummy while patting oneself on the head requires a level of disassociation ).
I will also try your idea. I am not sure if the following will help. A visual metronome like http://38i.biz/metronome/ or the one Arun developed can help in periodically checking if you are on beat.
Out of my frustration with keeping to the beats, I devised a method for myself which I call Eduppu Varisai. This is similar to the various other varisais but its emphasis is that
the 'eduppu's are in between beats and the resting places are also in between beats while smearing over the prior beat. ( like how they do it in varnams ). That kind of stuff is what trips me up, so I decided to focus on such eduppu and slightly syncopated patterns. No progress to report yet
AMS probably has thought through all this and have incorporated that in his teaching methods. I will have to check.
I will also try your idea. I am not sure if the following will help. A visual metronome like http://38i.biz/metronome/ or the one Arun developed can help in periodically checking if you are on beat.
Out of my frustration with keeping to the beats, I devised a method for myself which I call Eduppu Varisai. This is similar to the various other varisais but its emphasis is that
the 'eduppu's are in between beats and the resting places are also in between beats while smearing over the prior beat. ( like how they do it in varnams ). That kind of stuff is what trips me up, so I decided to focus on such eduppu and slightly syncopated patterns. No progress to report yet
AMS probably has thought through all this and have incorporated that in his teaching methods. I will have to check.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
VK...
It is easy to follow a beat, it is not so easy to be 'proactive' in the modern jargon. Still, if you attend some sort of concert where the audience are invited to clap with the music, you will not hear one crisp, accurate combined clap, many people are way off!
It has been said recently that all babies have an inherant sense of rhythm. I can certainly believe this, in fact I'd harldy thini it worth a research project to prove! I have often said that we have rhythm inherant in our bodies. Whatever our age, our heart beats regularly, and if it does not then it can be life-threatening. If we were not able to walk with near-perfect rhythm, then a street full of people would be the stuff of comedy films.
It seems, though, that our layam retreats from consciousness as we get older, and that it takes a great effort to retrain. It requires not only doing different things with each hand, but feels like doing different things with different parts of the brain!
Girish,
If you were to start learning mridangam (if your experience were to be like mine) the problem would not disappear, but you would be tackling it head on! Even at the first lesson, to play Tha , , , Dhi , , , Thom , , , Nam , , , with accurate timing, alone, is harder than one thinks, and my teacher said, yes, it so for everyone, even the youngsters.
But this problem is the same for all music students. An immature vocalist may even alter the speed of the song according to their feeling for the song (apparently some mature ones do this too!) rather than mainting tala strictly. Of course, Western music allows of change of tempo, this may be a cross cultural 'infection'. Vocalists and instrumentalists also have to keep to tala whilst delivering syncopated music, and understand and keep tala through the tani too.
Tangentially, I have often wondered why non-musician rasikas bother with this talam business. There a those syncopated places where there may be some intellectual satisfaction in knowing the beat, but I don't believe that it adds much to the enjoyment of the music. The musical sense feels syncopation anyway, and there is our pleasure. To be honest, if I did not have still some slight semblance of attachment to being a mridangam student, I would not bother --- I find it just a distraction from my emotional pleasure in the music.
It is easy to follow a beat, it is not so easy to be 'proactive' in the modern jargon. Still, if you attend some sort of concert where the audience are invited to clap with the music, you will not hear one crisp, accurate combined clap, many people are way off!
It has been said recently that all babies have an inherant sense of rhythm. I can certainly believe this, in fact I'd harldy thini it worth a research project to prove! I have often said that we have rhythm inherant in our bodies. Whatever our age, our heart beats regularly, and if it does not then it can be life-threatening. If we were not able to walk with near-perfect rhythm, then a street full of people would be the stuff of comedy films.
It seems, though, that our layam retreats from consciousness as we get older, and that it takes a great effort to retrain. It requires not only doing different things with each hand, but feels like doing different things with different parts of the brain!
Girish,
If you were to start learning mridangam (if your experience were to be like mine) the problem would not disappear, but you would be tackling it head on! Even at the first lesson, to play Tha , , , Dhi , , , Thom , , , Nam , , , with accurate timing, alone, is harder than one thinks, and my teacher said, yes, it so for everyone, even the youngsters.
But this problem is the same for all music students. An immature vocalist may even alter the speed of the song according to their feeling for the song (apparently some mature ones do this too!) rather than mainting tala strictly. Of course, Western music allows of change of tempo, this may be a cross cultural 'infection'. Vocalists and instrumentalists also have to keep to tala whilst delivering syncopated music, and understand and keep tala through the tani too.
I think the first thing to do is to concentrate on the tala and not listen to the music. This is rather boring for a music lover, but it is a necessary exercise! Let the music be there just to keep a check on one's tala, not for enjoyment. Then perhaps (I say perhaps because I haven't got there) one can attain a state where the body acts as metronome. I have watched my teacher composing, eg, korvais; his hand keeps dependable tala, so if his composition does not work he can see it. Us lesser mortals tend to put the tala beat where we want it to be, or think it should be.Of late, one of the things that I have been trying to do is to mentally dissociate my taala-keeping from the corresponding composition.
Tangentially, I have often wondered why non-musician rasikas bother with this talam business. There a those syncopated places where there may be some intellectual satisfaction in knowing the beat, but I don't believe that it adds much to the enjoyment of the music. The musical sense feels syncopation anyway, and there is our pleasure. To be honest, if I did not have still some slight semblance of attachment to being a mridangam student, I would not bother --- I find it just a distraction from my emotional pleasure in the music.
-
girish_a
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33
VK,
I looked at the visual metronome. It is pretty simple and could prove to be useful too, but I dislike the idea of keeping a laptop in front of me when practicing
My next thought was, why not write such an app for an iPhone, which is less unwieldy than a laptop! But since I don't possess an iPhone, I just let it pass.
I'm thinking of going in for a tala-meter, but I'll first have to ask around. It shouldn't become a prop you can't live without.
I'm curious to know more about your "Eduppu Varasais". It sounds like a very interesting concept. Please share them here. And if AMS has thought through this, what a blessing it will be for us!
Nick,
You make some interesting points about the challenges faced by novice drummers and singers alike. Your point about concentrating on the taala is practical; I've tried it a few times, but I need to practice harder to become completely deaf to the music. Even when I have managed it, my taala has gone awry. But I need more practice, as I said.
I think I'm beginning to see why the Mridangists I've met are so good at taala. I initially thought it might be because of the nature of Mridangam playing, but I think it is more because of the fact that they live with taala day in and day out. It is the practice that has made them perfect So I think learning the Mridangam is still a good idea. You will be tackling the taala-problem head on, as you said!
Having made that point about Mridangists, though, non-percussionists still have to tackle the other problem of keeping track of their whereabouts in the taala cycle, something for which I haven't found a good enough explanation in this thread.
I looked at the visual metronome. It is pretty simple and could prove to be useful too, but I dislike the idea of keeping a laptop in front of me when practicing
My next thought was, why not write such an app for an iPhone, which is less unwieldy than a laptop! But since I don't possess an iPhone, I just let it pass.I'm thinking of going in for a tala-meter, but I'll first have to ask around. It shouldn't become a prop you can't live without.
I'm curious to know more about your "Eduppu Varasais". It sounds like a very interesting concept. Please share them here. And if AMS has thought through this, what a blessing it will be for us!
Nick,
You make some interesting points about the challenges faced by novice drummers and singers alike. Your point about concentrating on the taala is practical; I've tried it a few times, but I need to practice harder to become completely deaf to the music. Even when I have managed it, my taala has gone awry. But I need more practice, as I said.
I think I'm beginning to see why the Mridangists I've met are so good at taala. I initially thought it might be because of the nature of Mridangam playing, but I think it is more because of the fact that they live with taala day in and day out. It is the practice that has made them perfect
So I think learning the Mridangam is still a good idea. You will be tackling the taala-problem head on, as you said!Having made that point about Mridangists, though, non-percussionists still have to tackle the other problem of keeping track of their whereabouts in the taala cycle, something for which I haven't found a good enough explanation in this thread.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Not deaf, but only 25% attention.*but I need to practice harder to become completely deaf to the music
Of some assistance in maintaining regular physical talam, at least in the 35 talas (the chapu talas pose a diiferent problem as their "beats" are not on every beat) ---
--- keep the motion of the hand flowing and regular, like the arm of a metronome, Up, down, up, down. Thus the tala becomes a sort of a dance. This exercise does not detract too much from enjoying at the same time.
--- mentally mutter takadimi to each beat. We have to not only keep our beat, but we have to recognise the pulse within it. The mental recitation helps both. This detracts a great deal from enjoyment; it is excercise time! At home, of course, it doesn't have to be mental.
--- watch the feet. They talk about toe-tapping rhythms, and I sometimes observe that when I think I have lost the beat, that my toes have not!
*part of the exercise is that some artists are not machine-like in their talam; we have to adjust to that. There are two things; learning to be a machine, and learning to be an adaptable machine! So the hardest job for a mridangist can be accompanying children singing simple songs, but without accurate talam. Tough, isn't it?
Last edited by Guest on 03 Mar 2009, 22:40, edited 1 time in total.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Actually, first I wanted to mention an iPhone app but then I thought I will stick to the laptop app. I use an iPhone app called 'iTick' which provides both visual and auditory clues with the option to turn off the audio. The convenience of having that anywhere you go is great. It can also be used to bring out the disassociation we talked about even outside the context of playing any instrument.why not write such an app for an iPhone, which is less unwieldy than a laptop!
I will write about the 'eduppu varisai' later. It is not a big thing,you may laugh when you see it and whether it even deserves a special name like that
, it is personalized by me for my problems, we will have to see if it is useful for others.Great point. Definitely.Nick wrote: It requires not only doing different things with each hand, but feels like doing different things with different parts of the brain!
-
mohan
- Posts: 2806
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52
I have had a few incidents where even top instrumentalists (and their accompanying mrudangam artistes) request an audience member (who is a musician) to sit in the front row and put talam for them. Having been put in this situation a few times, I find it quite a tense exercise especially when the artistes start complicated mathematical swarams!
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Since you asked, here is a sample. ( Use it at your own riskI'm curious to know more about your "Eduppu Varasais". It sounds like a very interesting concept. Please share them here
)-----------------
If regular varisai in Adi is the following
Code: Select all
S . R . G . M . | P . D . | N . S . ||
S . N . D . P . | M . G . | R . S . ||
Eduppu Varisai in Adi
Code: Select all
S . R . G . M . | . P D . | N . S . ||
. S N . D . P . | . M G . | R . S . ||
like a song due to that tiniest twist in layam.
If you keep repeating the above, it can get boring. The next level can be
Code: Select all
S . . R G . . M | P . . D | N . . S ||
S . . N D . . P | M . . G | R . . S ||
--------------------
Misra Chapu was/is a problem for me to get a good sense of its flow. I use the following to internalize MC a bit.
If regular varisai in Misra Chapu
Code: Select all
S R G | M P | D N ||
S N D | P M | G R ||
( modeled after one of the common MC eduppus used by Vaggeyakaras.
Thanks Vijay for cluing me into this common pattern in a different thread a while back )
Code: Select all
- - S | R G | M P ||
D N S | N D | P M ||
G R S
Code: Select all
- - S | R . | G . ||
M P D | N . | S . ||
S N D | P M | G R ||
S . S |
Code: Select all
- - S | R . | G . ||
. . M | P D | N S ||
S N D | P M | . G ||
R S S |
-
girish_a
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33
Yes, makes sense.nick H wrote:Not deaf, but only 25% attention.but I need to practice harder to become completely deaf to the music
VK,
Thanks for sharing your Eduppu Varasai. This is certainly a very interesting concept. Never mind if is not exactly in great shape right now; it can always be improved, especially in a forum like this. Maybe you should think of starting a separate thread for Eduppu Varasai. It will definitely catch the attention of the AKSes and Vidyarthis of this forum. And they can help you to fine-tune your ideas.
I shall try out the excercises and give you feedback.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Girish, thanks for your involvement by trying my patterns out. Be aware of my warnings!! I will keep these in this thread for now, sort of a semi-lit place in the remote corner of the house only a few people know and visit!!
Here is another set, a designer-eduppu-varisai, using rshankar's nomenclature, designed to treat my own beginner level laya difficulties with desAdi thala.. So, it may not fit others, or may not satisfy other's fashion sense
I always had trouble with the desAdi thala eduppu. It does not help that my own person pet-peeve is that it is an unnecessarily unnatural way of fixing the eduppu that gives beginners a lot of trouble. It is artificial complexity and not inherent complexity. The laya patterns of the songs themselves are actually quite simple and straightforward. For practising desAdi tala, I use these patterns.
Consider the following simple varisai pattern. It is structured as a 'before the samam' eduppu. Practise the pattern first, it is very natural and orderly, nothing unusual.
In fact, for all practical purposes, you can even ignore the 'pre-samam' N since it will automatically come in when you repeat the pattern. But I put in there since it is
needed for the second step.
Transpose the notation by 2 beats and make it into an Adi structure. The playing remains exactly the same. Magically, this becomes a desAdi thala pattern.
If you want it to sound a bit more authentic desAdi, play/sing with extra stresses to the 5th beat of each avarthanam ,namely the 'P .' and 'M .'.
Here is another set, a designer-eduppu-varisai, using rshankar's nomenclature, designed to treat my own beginner level laya difficulties with desAdi thala.. So, it may not fit others, or may not satisfy other's fashion sense
I always had trouble with the desAdi thala eduppu. It does not help that my own person pet-peeve is that it is an unnecessarily unnatural way of fixing the eduppu that gives beginners a lot of trouble. It is artificial complexity and not inherent complexity. The laya patterns of the songs themselves are actually quite simple and straightforward. For practising desAdi tala, I use these patterns.
Consider the following simple varisai pattern. It is structured as a 'before the samam' eduppu. Practise the pattern first, it is very natural and orderly, nothing unusual.
In fact, for all practical purposes, you can even ignore the 'pre-samam' N since it will automatically come in when you repeat the pattern. But I put in there since it is
needed for the second step.
Let us add some artificial complexity with a sleight of hand.- N |
S . | R GM |
P . | . G |
M . | P DN |
S . | . R |
S . | N DP |
M . | . D |
P . | M GR |
S . | . N |
Transpose the notation by 2 beats and make it into an Adi structure. The playing remains exactly the same. Magically, this becomes a desAdi thala pattern.
If you want it to sound a bit more authentic desAdi, play/sing with extra stresses to the 5th beat of each avarthanam ,namely the 'P .' and 'M .'.
In going with my practise of having a variation when boredom sets in, a small change to the above can be made. ( you yourself can make many such small changes without affecting the layam )- -| - N | S . | R GM | P .| . G | M . | P DN ||
S .| . R | S . | N DP | M .| . D | P . | M GR ||
S .| . N
- -| - N | S R | . GM | P .| . G| M P | . DN ||
S .| . R | S N | . DP | M .| . D| P M | . GR ||
S .| . N
-
R2
- Posts: 8
- Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 09:21
Dear friends,
The Talometer made by Radel is the best tool for instrumentalists. It can be set to any of the 35 taalas (7 taalas, 5 jaathis), at any speed, any pitch, and shows you the progression of the tala through a moving display of lamps accompanied by sound (different sounds for Beat and count). It also shows the last laghu in multiple laghu talas, like Dhruva taala, which even a person showing the tala on the hand cannot do!
You can sit and practise with it anywhere. You can mute the sounds for rupaka and chapu taalas, and also set Nadais.
This is actually and invaluable tool for all instrumentalists. I am a vainika myself and cannot do without it.
The Talometer made by Radel is the best tool for instrumentalists. It can be set to any of the 35 taalas (7 taalas, 5 jaathis), at any speed, any pitch, and shows you the progression of the tala through a moving display of lamps accompanied by sound (different sounds for Beat and count). It also shows the last laghu in multiple laghu talas, like Dhruva taala, which even a person showing the tala on the hand cannot do!
You can sit and practise with it anywhere. You can mute the sounds for rupaka and chapu taalas, and also set Nadais.
This is actually and invaluable tool for all instrumentalists. I am a vainika myself and cannot do without it.
-
svkashyap
- Posts: 116
- Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 15:25
I agree with R2. Radel's talometer is invaluable as any tala in any nadai in speeds ranging from 30 to 200 bpm can be set.
On a lighter note, the following methods can be tried.
1. Use your breath.
For Adi and rupaka tala - Exhale for lagu, inhale for dhrutam or vice versa whichever is comfortable.
For chapu talams - Inhale for the uneven beat and exhale for equal beats (sigh of relief )
The disadvantage of this method is that after sometime you will be gasping for breath.
The advantage is whether you keep the beat or not, rhythmic breathing is good for health.
The next method is more suited for the adventurous
2. Use your eyes
This method is straight forward for chapu talams, just blink your eyes on the beats. (not an adventure)
For Adi tala, blink both eyes for laghu and alternate eyes for dhruta. ( PS: Please dont try in public
places )
On a lighter note, the following methods can be tried.
1. Use your breath.
For Adi and rupaka tala - Exhale for lagu, inhale for dhrutam or vice versa whichever is comfortable.
For chapu talams - Inhale for the uneven beat and exhale for equal beats (sigh of relief
)The disadvantage of this method is that after sometime you will be gasping for breath.
The advantage is whether you keep the beat or not, rhythmic breathing is good for health
. The next method is more suited for the adventurous
2. Use your eyes
This method is straight forward for chapu talams, just blink your eyes on the beats. (not an adventure)
For Adi tala, blink both eyes for laghu and alternate eyes for dhruta. ( PS: Please dont try in public
places )
-
akshay.iyer
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 01 May 2009, 09:43
When you listen to a lot of music, the taalam sense comes automatically. The problem is during the swaras.
Apart from that I don't think there is any need to maintain any taalam when you are playing the pallavi. But again putting taalam with the feet is cumbersome but i guess the most widely used method for an instrumentalist. But one should never rely on it and should internally develop the sense of taala.
Apart from that I don't think there is any need to maintain any taalam when you are playing the pallavi. But again putting taalam with the feet is cumbersome but i guess the most widely used method for an instrumentalist. But one should never rely on it and should internally develop the sense of taala.
-
S.NAGESWARAN
- Posts: 1076
- Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 08:54
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
From the very little I know about this, in HM, unlike CM, the thala and thala angas are very closely defined by the tabla sollus/sounds, called Bols. I am told that with some knowledge you can figure out the thala just by listening to the tabla. For example, two thalas with the same count but with different structures will have different Bols and so you can tell them apart by the sequence of sounds the tabla player makes. So what you saw/heard is the artist indicating to the tabla player essentially what Bol structure she wanted.
This probably limits what a tabla player can play while accompanying to a song whereas with CM there is no such correlation between thala/thala angas and what the percussionist needs to show.
This probably limits what a tabla player can play while accompanying to a song whereas with CM there is no such correlation between thala/thala angas and what the percussionist needs to show.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Yes, I think you are absolutely right, and I have seen before Hindustani artists instructing, or even correcting, their tabla players as to what pattern to play.
In this particular instance, I think she was giving the tempo as much as anything else. I don't know, but suspect there must be a lot of different patterns that begin na dhin dhin na
In this particular instance, I think she was giving the tempo as much as anything else. I don't know, but suspect there must be a lot of different patterns that begin na dhin dhin na
-
sridharrajagopal
- Posts: 60
- Joined: 01 Mar 2011, 07:50
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Hi there!
I am new to this forum, and saw this thread. I saw mention of metronomes and such for keeping track of the beat. I have developed an iPhone/iPod touch/iPad app called Talanome, which is specifically tailored for Carnatic music - do check it out at http://www.upbeatlabs.com/ or on iTunes at http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/talanome ... ?mt=8&ls=1 or on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/pages/Talanome/105127739567317 . Hope you like it! Welcome your feedback!
Cheers,
Sridhar Rajagopal
I am new to this forum, and saw this thread. I saw mention of metronomes and such for keeping track of the beat. I have developed an iPhone/iPod touch/iPad app called Talanome, which is specifically tailored for Carnatic music - do check it out at http://www.upbeatlabs.com/ or on iTunes at http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/talanome ... ?mt=8&ls=1 or on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/pages/Talanome/105127739567317 . Hope you like it! Welcome your feedback!
Cheers,
Sridhar Rajagopal
-
mohan
- Posts: 2806
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Sridhar - it looks pretty neat. Does it include chapu talas as well?sridharrajagopal wrote:Hi there!
I saw mention of metronomes and such for keeping track of the beat. I have developed an iPhone/iPod touch/iPad app called Talanome, which is specifically tailored for Carnatic music
Is there an android version too?
-
sridharrajagopal
- Posts: 60
- Joined: 01 Mar 2011, 07:50
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Hi Mohan,
No, it does not include chapu talas ... not yet, hopefully soon!
Android version would take longer to port - at this time, I'm just exploring the platform and the possibility.
Thanks,
Sridhar
No, it does not include chapu talas ... not yet, hopefully soon!
Android version would take longer to port - at this time, I'm just exploring the platform and the possibility.
Thanks,
Sridhar
-
sridharrajagopal
- Posts: 60
- Joined: 01 Mar 2011, 07:50
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Mohan, btw, Chapu talams have been available for a while on Talanome. Android version is still a to-do. :-/
-
radmahesh
- Posts: 62
- Joined: 05 Apr 2012, 06:59
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Hi all,
Here is a great lesson from the great Violin Maestro Dr.M.Chandrasekhar for keeping Talam for instrumentalists. Sri.M.Chandrasekhar is my Guru's Guru. He visited our place for a concert a couple of weeks ago. I asked him about this difficulty in putting Talam while playing Manodharma swaras in veena. He advised me
"To sing varisais and put the talam in foot and not by hand. He asked me to do this for all alankarams starting from Eka Talam, Rupaka Talam, Triputa Talam, Matya Talam, Jhampa Talam,Ata Talam and finally Dhruva Talam. Simultaneously he asked me to practice varnams vocally with talam in the foot. He said you have to keep on doing this when you take class for kids too as it becomes additional practice. He added, whenver you listen to a song start using your foot to keep the rhythm. In a nutshell, IT SHOULD BECOME YOUR SECOND NATURE. Unknowingly you will realise that you have mastered the art of keeping the rhythm using the foot."
Basically my rhythm sense is not that good when it comes to instrument due to this difficulty. Now the result. I am doing this for the past two weeks now. To my sheer happiness I find that I can keep the rhythm of Adi and Rupaka Talam in my foot. Now I have to try for the swarams. I am hell bent on doing it. I consider myself as a kid who started to learn keeping the rhythm by foot, temperorily forgetting my age.
This really works.. |(
Here is a great lesson from the great Violin Maestro Dr.M.Chandrasekhar for keeping Talam for instrumentalists. Sri.M.Chandrasekhar is my Guru's Guru. He visited our place for a concert a couple of weeks ago. I asked him about this difficulty in putting Talam while playing Manodharma swaras in veena. He advised me
"To sing varisais and put the talam in foot and not by hand. He asked me to do this for all alankarams starting from Eka Talam, Rupaka Talam, Triputa Talam, Matya Talam, Jhampa Talam,Ata Talam and finally Dhruva Talam. Simultaneously he asked me to practice varnams vocally with talam in the foot. He said you have to keep on doing this when you take class for kids too as it becomes additional practice. He added, whenver you listen to a song start using your foot to keep the rhythm. In a nutshell, IT SHOULD BECOME YOUR SECOND NATURE. Unknowingly you will realise that you have mastered the art of keeping the rhythm using the foot."
Basically my rhythm sense is not that good when it comes to instrument due to this difficulty. Now the result. I am doing this for the past two weeks now. To my sheer happiness I find that I can keep the rhythm of Adi and Rupaka Talam in my foot. Now I have to try for the swarams. I am hell bent on doing it. I consider myself as a kid who started to learn keeping the rhythm by foot, temperorily forgetting my age.
This really works.. |(
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
All over the world people are tapping their toes to music. Somehow, rhythm seems to come naturally to the feet. Regularly, when my hand waves uselessly in the air, I notice that one of my toes still has the beat!
Where the fingers come in useful is for counting. It is a challenge to do that with the feet.
Western classical artists have to keep rhythm without any external display. I often wonder about that: how do they do it? Where do they feel it? As if there was an answer, which would magically enable me to do the same.
:$ OK, there is an answer. The same as with many skills: practice!
Where the fingers come in useful is for counting. It is a challenge to do that with the feet.
Western classical artists have to keep rhythm without any external display. I often wonder about that: how do they do it? Where do they feel it? As if there was an answer, which would magically enable me to do the same.
:$ OK, there is an answer. The same as with many skills: practice!
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Good points radmahesh and Nick. Elaborating on that,
Well, that foot tapping rhythm is natural when that rhythm is regular and not syncopated. And when the hand, fingers and foot are all doing the same thing, the brain does a great job. But once your fingers are needed for some other motion, especially something anti-parallel, the natural brain tendency is to bring all of them in order there by destroying one or the other. Brain is optimized, in its natural state, for doing real world things that help us survive. Say, for walking and running where that hand-foot coordination is necessary. So what we try to do here is unnatural in that sense. That requires lots of practice to teach the brain those new tricks.
So, definitely, It is practice. Important thing is to not stop at intellectual understanding of it but actually do it. That is the difference between radmahesh and I I better get on it.
Not practicing practice is not a good practice!!!
It is quite impressive to see the accurate foot tapping skills of my 14 year old niece. She is a flute player in the high school orchestra and she also learns CM. That western music training gave her a lot of technical skills. Say, in half a beat, which is two quarter notes long, she can very naturally play some combination of 1/32 notes, 1/16th notes and 1/8th notes, just by looking at the notation while the foot is tapping to a constant beat. She can't even relate to why I was impressed with her foot tapping skills. I do not think her CM teacher taught her any of this but those skills are indeed needed in CM. In fact even more so with gathi changes which can play havoc if such foot tapping skill is a bit loose. Akellaji's students will have these skills in the early stages as well since his teaching method starts with getting a strong footing ( pun unintended! ) in laya.
She and I were trying our hand in putting together a tune in an obscure CM raga. It is a big chore for me to simultaneously evolve the melody and arrange them within the beats while at the same time checking how good it is by playing it. Collaborating with her changed it to a fun activity. She could play the under-construction melody on her flute while tapping her foot, make small adjustments so things fall on the beat and write them down in the staff notation. She can then play it repeatedly in a carbon copy manner as we worked on variations on it until it sounded satisfactory to both of us.
Well, that foot tapping rhythm is natural when that rhythm is regular and not syncopated. And when the hand, fingers and foot are all doing the same thing, the brain does a great job. But once your fingers are needed for some other motion, especially something anti-parallel, the natural brain tendency is to bring all of them in order there by destroying one or the other. Brain is optimized, in its natural state, for doing real world things that help us survive. Say, for walking and running where that hand-foot coordination is necessary. So what we try to do here is unnatural in that sense. That requires lots of practice to teach the brain those new tricks.
So, definitely, It is practice. Important thing is to not stop at intellectual understanding of it but actually do it. That is the difference between radmahesh and I
I better get on it.Not practicing practice is not a good practice!!!
It is quite impressive to see the accurate foot tapping skills of my 14 year old niece. She is a flute player in the high school orchestra and she also learns CM. That western music training gave her a lot of technical skills. Say, in half a beat, which is two quarter notes long, she can very naturally play some combination of 1/32 notes, 1/16th notes and 1/8th notes, just by looking at the notation while the foot is tapping to a constant beat. She can't even relate to why I was impressed with her foot tapping skills. I do not think her CM teacher taught her any of this but those skills are indeed needed in CM. In fact even more so with gathi changes which can play havoc if such foot tapping skill is a bit loose. Akellaji's students will have these skills in the early stages as well since his teaching method starts with getting a strong footing ( pun unintended! ) in laya.
She and I were trying our hand in putting together a tune in an obscure CM raga. It is a big chore for me to simultaneously evolve the melody and arrange them within the beats while at the same time checking how good it is by playing it. Collaborating with her changed it to a fun activity. She could play the under-construction melody on her flute while tapping her foot, make small adjustments so things fall on the beat and write them down in the staff notation. She can then play it repeatedly in a carbon copy manner as we worked on variations on it until it sounded satisfactory to both of us.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
The foot can tap through syncopation ... although if the syncopation becomes long and complex, as in a difficult korvais, then, yes, even the foot may be lost!
-
Radhika-Rajnarayan
- Posts: 289
- Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
As the old popular song said, (modified here!) "Use Talometer, Dear Henry, dear Henry dear henry" - how many of you know that it's been around for 35 years? Of course, now it's fashionable to develop or use 'apps' for everything ..
The Talometer can do many things apart from showing the taalam at any speed or pitch - you can set nadai, set it to start before the beginning of the tala (so that you can start the music bang on the samam) and do a multitude of things. A Talometer helps even percussion artists who employ unbelievably complicated patterns. Oh, it also shows you which the last laghu is, in case there is more than 1 laghu, like Ata , Dhruva and Matya taalam... it really helps an instrumentalist. Yet, all these years, we were told by many people 'oh, it's a machine, we can't sing with bhaavam. When we sing with bhaavam we like to slow down or speed up a bit..' can you believe that?
The method that earlier generations of teachers used, as mentioned in the earlier post - about keeping talam with the foot, is invaluable. But with slower taalams or complex patterns it becomes difficult to give your imagination a free rein. You get bogged down. You DO need another person to maintain talam, or a talometer. That is why in Hindustani music, where the laya is very slow, the talam is maintained by the tabla (unlike our mridangam which is played creatively)- the tabla is used as an 'audio-talometer', so to speak, and the different bols indicate different points of the cycle. The electronic tabla too, is a machine, yet it's universally accepted. But the Talometer.... |(
Western classical rhythms are easier - even when syncopated, but jazz- that's tough, like our music. It takes all your concentration to keep time to some of the more complex rhythms in jazz. Great fun trying, though!
The Talometer can do many things apart from showing the taalam at any speed or pitch - you can set nadai, set it to start before the beginning of the tala (so that you can start the music bang on the samam) and do a multitude of things. A Talometer helps even percussion artists who employ unbelievably complicated patterns. Oh, it also shows you which the last laghu is, in case there is more than 1 laghu, like Ata , Dhruva and Matya taalam... it really helps an instrumentalist. Yet, all these years, we were told by many people 'oh, it's a machine, we can't sing with bhaavam. When we sing with bhaavam we like to slow down or speed up a bit..' can you believe that?
The method that earlier generations of teachers used, as mentioned in the earlier post - about keeping talam with the foot, is invaluable. But with slower taalams or complex patterns it becomes difficult to give your imagination a free rein. You get bogged down. You DO need another person to maintain talam, or a talometer. That is why in Hindustani music, where the laya is very slow, the talam is maintained by the tabla (unlike our mridangam which is played creatively)- the tabla is used as an 'audio-talometer', so to speak, and the different bols indicate different points of the cycle. The electronic tabla too, is a machine, yet it's universally accepted. But the Talometer.... |(
Western classical rhythms are easier - even when syncopated, but jazz- that's tough, like our music. It takes all your concentration to keep time to some of the more complex rhythms in jazz. Great fun trying, though!
-
mridhangam
- Posts: 976
- Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
This is a fantastic post i dnt know whether i have seen it and made any postings earlier. I would like to contribute but a little later after going through the entire conversations by our fellow members.
Mannarkoil J Balaji
Mannarkoil J Balaji
-
girish_a
- Posts: 432
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
That's wonderful sir! Looking forward to your participation.
-
SrinathK
- Posts: 2477
- Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
This brings back a lot of memories for me and there is a lot I want to write about this and it will span several posts. In my life the one thing that nearly killed my musical story was my unfamiliarity with rendering talas while playing the instrument. As a vocalist I had no problem with the talas though my laya gnana was not very good. But the violin was a merciless instrument. When I was a kid I had to play along with a mridangam on Sivarathri at a well known temple and never having done anything like that ever before I really struggled to find my way as I got very confused by what the mridangam was playing. Fortunately the mridangist and all the other musicians who had come for the program were very helpful and supportive and showed me the tala and so I was able to play something. But I knew within myself I had played badly and although everyone was very appreciative I was totally embarrassed on the inside. I had been brought up on listening to great music so playing badly was far more painful than any criticism. I would have been much happier if someone had come to me and told me "You didn't do this right. This is your problem and you have to solve it like this..." But nope, all I got was a lot of praise...
Practice was no better. I had to practice alone and I could not play freely because I had no idea where I was and no one around could put the tala for me. I did not know that there were metronomes and all these softwares back then. This was also the time when academic commitments meant I had to stop classes too. So at some point I got stuck -- my krithi playing never improved and neraval, kalpanaswaras and the like were out of the question. It dented my confidence very badly and I refused every chance to perform at any competition or even at small family functions simply because I did not want to suffer that embarrassment again. Essentially my musical development came to a halt right there. I tried putting the tala on my feet, but it was unsteady and when my mind was busy focusing on playing I forgot the counting. Back then I did not even know how to practice in any efficient manner. I would wonder how the great Lalgudi was such an unparalled laya genius and how their school could put the tala on their feet. Frustration ruled and confidence suffered...I stopped playing for a long time in college (2 years in fact) as I had given up hope. I only wonder where I could have gone if I knew then what I know now.
I would advise students not to venture into music on their own without sufficient gnana in raga, tala, swara, and compositions. And I warn all violin students of this fact -- no other musician (incl. instrumentalists) is subjected to the kind of "laya terror" that a violinist must face -- I have seen it in every concert and have even been at the receiving end when I played once as an accompanist (just as before, with no idea at all what a concert demanded). Among all instruments, putting tala while playing the violin is the hardest -- the posture is difficult and the instrument itself is extremely challenging. If your laya skill is not strong, your musical development will stop after a point and your confidence will be badly dented and if you are a performer you will be subject to many frightening and even humiliating moments -- at the end of which you may even be blamed for ruining the concert because you failed to accompany well. And forget about solo...you won't make it far past the start line. Most of the neravals and swaras you hear in competitions are all totally rehearsed stuff (this applies to the majority of participants) and are not representative of real laya expertise. Akellaji is absolutely correct when he says that laya is the foundation for confidence in playing any instrument.
Practice was no better. I had to practice alone and I could not play freely because I had no idea where I was and no one around could put the tala for me. I did not know that there were metronomes and all these softwares back then. This was also the time when academic commitments meant I had to stop classes too. So at some point I got stuck -- my krithi playing never improved and neraval, kalpanaswaras and the like were out of the question. It dented my confidence very badly and I refused every chance to perform at any competition or even at small family functions simply because I did not want to suffer that embarrassment again. Essentially my musical development came to a halt right there. I tried putting the tala on my feet, but it was unsteady and when my mind was busy focusing on playing I forgot the counting. Back then I did not even know how to practice in any efficient manner. I would wonder how the great Lalgudi was such an unparalled laya genius and how their school could put the tala on their feet. Frustration ruled and confidence suffered...I stopped playing for a long time in college (2 years in fact) as I had given up hope. I only wonder where I could have gone if I knew then what I know now.
I would advise students not to venture into music on their own without sufficient gnana in raga, tala, swara, and compositions. And I warn all violin students of this fact -- no other musician (incl. instrumentalists) is subjected to the kind of "laya terror" that a violinist must face -- I have seen it in every concert and have even been at the receiving end when I played once as an accompanist (just as before, with no idea at all what a concert demanded). Among all instruments, putting tala while playing the violin is the hardest -- the posture is difficult and the instrument itself is extremely challenging. If your laya skill is not strong, your musical development will stop after a point and your confidence will be badly dented and if you are a performer you will be subject to many frightening and even humiliating moments -- at the end of which you may even be blamed for ruining the concert because you failed to accompany well. And forget about solo...you won't make it far past the start line. Most of the neravals and swaras you hear in competitions are all totally rehearsed stuff (this applies to the majority of participants) and are not representative of real laya expertise. Akellaji is absolutely correct when he says that laya is the foundation for confidence in playing any instrument.
-
SrinathK
- Posts: 2477
- Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
It was only much later after I came across this forum and read all the posts in this thread and listened to a recording Lalgudi lec dem that I realized what had really gone wrong all that time. @vasanthakokilam I can read some staff notation myself. The key to your niece's rhythmic sense is precisely because of how staff notation works. First and foremost the music is WRITTEN down and writing is always a very powerful learning tool -- not using the pen and paper is a big mistake. Actually memorizing without pen & paper should be introduced only much later (and only for training the advanced student's memory and grasping abilities). Not using the pen and paper is very inefficient and instead it forces you to repeat a line endlessly till you get it -- a big waste of time and energy as the brain will switch off after a sufficient degree of autopilot has been attained.
Second, the nature of staff notation means that the student must first necessarily master the rhythmic component of the music first before the sound & notes, otherwise sight reading is impossible. Both these circumstances essentially force one's brain to think, understand and create the music at least 10 times before playing it once. This is a particular kind of practice known as DELIBERATE PRACTICE and it is much more demanding on the mental faculties of the student -- it forces the brain to keep thinking every time and stay engaged. In the long run it is deliberation which strengthens musical intuition, not instinctive guesswork. In fact these practice systems have been researched for a very long time in their system owing to the complex nature of their compositions and the kind of technical demands they throw at a student. Teaching and learning techniques have come a long way as a result of this with much innovation and powerful techniques. Students are taught how to practice in their mind and the best can work out entire concertos that way even they cannot physically practice their instrument. They have to keenly observe and analyze their own performances. The very best players and geniuses in any field all have this element of deliberate practice in common. LGJ was a in fact a master of this device -- he would call it "intelligent practice". In that lec dem he divided a composition into it's melodic, rhythmic and lyrical components and mentioned about learning each of them correctly.
Innovation in music is great, but I say research and innovation in the field of teaching and learning music is equally important. There is a lot I have yet to learn about the art of learning -- a result of all the frustrations I have faced while spending most of my tryst with music trying to teach myself.
On a score the rhythm is hidden under all those flags and staffs and rests and you have to decode it first. Then you have to see how the rhythm fits into the bars and measures. You have to count not only notes (sollus) but also count the duration of rests (kaarvais). So right from very simple pieces with simple rhythms to complex and elaborate arrangements rhythm is foremost in musical interpretation. Kaalapramanam sense is also very important as in western music, students should not only know when to play in constant speed but also where to slow down and speed up (rubato) and it is all governed by the mood of the tempo and aesthetic sense. While tala is the jewel of Indian music, Western isn't any less complicated in rhythmic patterns, slow and fast. In fact their rhythms can end and begin at 1/4 th, 2/6 th or 2/5th of a beat (which is equivalent to exposure to a wide variety of eduppus in trishram, chatushram, khandam and even mishram or sankeerna nadais -- does this remind you of Palani Subramania Pillai and tavil vidwans?) I'm not really surprised at your niece's skill. In fact in Carnatic music it is very difficult to grasp the complex nadais without a lot of analysis with a pen and a paper and rhythmic exercises in the beginning stage.
As for me, I have started practicing laya exercises recently with the help of fine metronome and it is a remarkable software. I recommend all instrumentalists to use such programs for their practice when there is no one to help them with the tala. I have started Akellaji's exercises in rhythm and I'm going to take out all my pent up rage and practice them in every tala, every nadai, every kalai and eduppu point with a focus on working out how each pattern can be used as an ending pattern for different eduppus. I'm also getting interested in this topic of talaprasthara and the algorithm to derive those rhythmic patterns of any number of units is invaluable for my rhythm practice -- so far I have only come to 6 units, but I have a notebook. Ok I know that because of my job my time is short, but so far, it has worked very well for me and I'll get there in time. There is also something else I am working on for rendering tala-angas on the feet ... but I've already vented out a lot here so I'll write more about that later.
Second, the nature of staff notation means that the student must first necessarily master the rhythmic component of the music first before the sound & notes, otherwise sight reading is impossible. Both these circumstances essentially force one's brain to think, understand and create the music at least 10 times before playing it once. This is a particular kind of practice known as DELIBERATE PRACTICE and it is much more demanding on the mental faculties of the student -- it forces the brain to keep thinking every time and stay engaged. In the long run it is deliberation which strengthens musical intuition, not instinctive guesswork. In fact these practice systems have been researched for a very long time in their system owing to the complex nature of their compositions and the kind of technical demands they throw at a student. Teaching and learning techniques have come a long way as a result of this with much innovation and powerful techniques. Students are taught how to practice in their mind and the best can work out entire concertos that way even they cannot physically practice their instrument. They have to keenly observe and analyze their own performances. The very best players and geniuses in any field all have this element of deliberate practice in common. LGJ was a in fact a master of this device -- he would call it "intelligent practice". In that lec dem he divided a composition into it's melodic, rhythmic and lyrical components and mentioned about learning each of them correctly.
Innovation in music is great, but I say research and innovation in the field of teaching and learning music is equally important. There is a lot I have yet to learn about the art of learning -- a result of all the frustrations I have faced while spending most of my tryst with music trying to teach myself.
On a score the rhythm is hidden under all those flags and staffs and rests and you have to decode it first. Then you have to see how the rhythm fits into the bars and measures. You have to count not only notes (sollus) but also count the duration of rests (kaarvais). So right from very simple pieces with simple rhythms to complex and elaborate arrangements rhythm is foremost in musical interpretation. Kaalapramanam sense is also very important as in western music, students should not only know when to play in constant speed but also where to slow down and speed up (rubato) and it is all governed by the mood of the tempo and aesthetic sense. While tala is the jewel of Indian music, Western isn't any less complicated in rhythmic patterns, slow and fast. In fact their rhythms can end and begin at 1/4 th, 2/6 th or 2/5th of a beat (which is equivalent to exposure to a wide variety of eduppus in trishram, chatushram, khandam and even mishram or sankeerna nadais -- does this remind you of Palani Subramania Pillai and tavil vidwans?) I'm not really surprised at your niece's skill. In fact in Carnatic music it is very difficult to grasp the complex nadais without a lot of analysis with a pen and a paper and rhythmic exercises in the beginning stage.
As for me, I have started practicing laya exercises recently with the help of fine metronome and it is a remarkable software. I recommend all instrumentalists to use such programs for their practice when there is no one to help them with the tala. I have started Akellaji's exercises in rhythm and I'm going to take out all my pent up rage and practice them in every tala, every nadai, every kalai and eduppu point with a focus on working out how each pattern can be used as an ending pattern for different eduppus. I'm also getting interested in this topic of talaprasthara and the algorithm to derive those rhythmic patterns of any number of units is invaluable for my rhythm practice -- so far I have only come to 6 units, but I have a notebook. Ok I know that because of my job my time is short, but so far, it has worked very well for me and I'll get there in time. There is also something else I am working on for rendering tala-angas on the feet ... but I've already vented out a lot here so I'll write more about that later.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
As I was reading your first post, i thought you will be a big fan of Akellaji's methods. Then I saw the above! Nice.Akellaji is absolutely correct when he says that laya is the foundation for confidence in playing any instrument.
Right.
What is the point of flesh and blood with out a skeleton?
-
rajeshnat
- Posts: 9927
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Srinathk
Very nice post . I am bit curious to know whom you acccompanied and if it is ok you can put the clips too. One of my favourite musician always says with rAgas you fairly reach a steady state and only with layam you grow as a very matured and successful musician . keep continuing with your posts
Very nice post . I am bit curious to know whom you acccompanied and if it is ok you can put the clips too. One of my favourite musician always says with rAgas you fairly reach a steady state and only with layam you grow as a very matured and successful musician . keep continuing with your posts
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
The violin, the flute, the veena ...and the mridangam.
All have to be played with two hands, leaving none free for this waving and clapping stuff. Some musicians substitute feet, toes, knees, etc: for those that require an external expression and place-keeping method of talam putting, I guess there are enough bodily bits to go around.
Now, it is easy for me to say this --- because I can't do it. :$ Accurate rhythm and counting is just one of the many skills that amaze me in musicians of all genres.
So, the question that has been on my mind for decades is: How do musicians do it? Just where is this magical organ of rhythm? If I was able to locate it and touch it in myself, would layam ability then start to flow?
Recently, I came across something that made me think that there is probably no "magical organ of rhythm," but that there may be as many ways of sensing and experiencing it as there are people! This is where I got that idea: Richard Feynman: Ways of Thinking (YouTube). Feynman is always worth listening to, and what he has to say here about his own experience with a counting/timing experiment, and comparing it with that of a colleague, is fascinating, and throws some light on my mystery. Do please watch this video snippet, everyone! And, perhaps, tell us how you count. How I do it is pattern-making thing that might be like Feynman goes on to mention, except that he uses that to be able to do two countings at once.
The visual pattern thing, by the way, was given to me by a fellow mridangam student, one of the other "grown-ups" in the class and a pro drummer. When it was obvious that I had great difficulty in playing something four times, keeping count, he told me: "It's easy, for four, visualise a square, for three, visualise a triangle..." For five, I have a square with a dot in the middle. All this like the dots on dice. It is not too hard to extend this to bigger things, like 4*3 is a square of triangles. For some this may suit; for others it may not, but if it does suit, then I'm sure that, with practice, and developing a fixed inner-vision code for oneself, that it could be developed into a non-physical talam-keeping method.
All have to be played with two hands, leaving none free for this waving and clapping stuff. Some musicians substitute feet, toes, knees, etc: for those that require an external expression and place-keeping method of talam putting, I guess there are enough bodily bits to go around.
The skeleton is on the inside! And that is where laya sense has to be. I never saw my mridangam guruji give any external show of talam ever, except when another artist was in need, when the correct finger would be shown immediately: not only is the beat internalised, but the counting is too. I think it very likely that the putting of tala is quite unnecessary for most of our accomplished artists outside of practice and composition, but they continue to do it out of habit.What is the point of flesh and blood with out a skeleton?
Now, it is easy for me to say this --- because I can't do it. :$ Accurate rhythm and counting is just one of the many skills that amaze me in musicians of all genres.
So, the question that has been on my mind for decades is: How do musicians do it? Just where is this magical organ of rhythm? If I was able to locate it and touch it in myself, would layam ability then start to flow?
Recently, I came across something that made me think that there is probably no "magical organ of rhythm," but that there may be as many ways of sensing and experiencing it as there are people! This is where I got that idea: Richard Feynman: Ways of Thinking (YouTube). Feynman is always worth listening to, and what he has to say here about his own experience with a counting/timing experiment, and comparing it with that of a colleague, is fascinating, and throws some light on my mystery. Do please watch this video snippet, everyone! And, perhaps, tell us how you count. How I do it is pattern-making thing that might be like Feynman goes on to mention, except that he uses that to be able to do two countings at once.
The visual pattern thing, by the way, was given to me by a fellow mridangam student, one of the other "grown-ups" in the class and a pro drummer. When it was obvious that I had great difficulty in playing something four times, keeping count, he told me: "It's easy, for four, visualise a square, for three, visualise a triangle..." For five, I have a square with a dot in the middle. All this like the dots on dice. It is not too hard to extend this to bigger things, like 4*3 is a square of triangles. For some this may suit; for others it may not, but if it does suit, then I'm sure that, with practice, and developing a fixed inner-vision code for oneself, that it could be developed into a non-physical talam-keeping method.
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Nick, that is an interesting twist to what I meant in an orthogonal direction. Quite true.
Taking that analogy a bit further, the same is true in buildings. There is a structure which defines the shape ( rhythm ) and the outer coverings provide the aesthetics ( melody ). The outer shape in buildings do have a regular pattern which provides its own rhythmic aesthetics with some occasional irregularities to break the monotony.
And then occasionally, we see some buildings where the structure is very much seen and not that covered up. There the rhythm takes priority and acts as the main source of aesthetics and everything else recedes to the background but still adding to the overall impression in subtle ways. We see that in music as well.
Taking that analogy a bit further, the same is true in buildings. There is a structure which defines the shape ( rhythm ) and the outer coverings provide the aesthetics ( melody ). The outer shape in buildings do have a regular pattern which provides its own rhythmic aesthetics with some occasional irregularities to break the monotony.
And then occasionally, we see some buildings where the structure is very much seen and not that covered up. There the rhythm takes priority and acts as the main source of aesthetics and everything else recedes to the background but still adding to the overall impression in subtle ways. We see that in music as well.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
A bit lost. The shapes are not an analogy, but a basic method of counting, like coins, pebbles, or maybe beads on an abacus. As such, they are just numbers. It is not a matter of priority. You cannot have sums without counting; you cannot have music without numbers.
The question is: how do we fee/think/whatever those numbers? What is the mechanism? Did you watch the Feynman snippet? I think you would enjoy it. In fact, if you have not seen them before, I suspect you might end up watching the rest of that series too. I'm particularly impressed with what he says about god, and about rubber bands!
The question is: how do we fee/think/whatever those numbers? What is the mechanism? Did you watch the Feynman snippet? I think you would enjoy it. In fact, if you have not seen them before, I suspect you might end up watching the rest of that series too. I'm particularly impressed with what he says about god, and about rubber bands!
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Nick, I did not watch the Feynman video now but I remember watching that before. Quite an interesting thing.
On the other topic, I am indeed using shape and structure as the analogy for rhythm. Because the periodic and countable aspect of rhythm are in fact the mechanical aspects of it. But what does it contribute to music at an innate level. It is structure, stability and shape. In that sense, I am invoking skeleton as the analogy for rhythm, not the external manifestation of it but the inherent aspect of music, and flesh and blood as the analogy for melody.
To make the point even further, you can indeed have music without numbers but not reasonably interesting music without a distinguishable structure. For example, an alapana has a rhythm but that is hard to express in terms of tala. But it definitely has a structure in the time domain.
On the other topic, I am indeed using shape and structure as the analogy for rhythm. Because the periodic and countable aspect of rhythm are in fact the mechanical aspects of it. But what does it contribute to music at an innate level. It is structure, stability and shape. In that sense, I am invoking skeleton as the analogy for rhythm, not the external manifestation of it but the inherent aspect of music, and flesh and blood as the analogy for melody.
To make the point even further, you can indeed have music without numbers but not reasonably interesting music without a distinguishable structure. For example, an alapana has a rhythm but that is hard to express in terms of tala. But it definitely has a structure in the time domain.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
You can't have music without numbers, because there are two kinds of numbers involved, those that determine rhythm and those that determine pitch --- but, sure, I take your point that not all music includes both of those, and it is certainly possible to have music without rhythm, and, in the context of this conversation, that is music without numbers. However, unless we move into the more unusual sorts of music (I was listening to the output of a fractal tune generator a couple of days back (Tune Smithy) for instance) then we have a skeleton, which is rhythm, and whether it is noticeable to the listener or not, it is there, and, in our carnatic music is it particularly inflexible even. "The track the train runs on," is one way that my mridangam teacher expressed it.
Music that is outside the scope of regular repeating periods of constant value is outside the scope of the conversation, because then we wouldn't be talking about how to put the tala!
(Oh, wait... of course there is carnatic music that does not have entirely regular patterns --- but not much?)
Music that is outside the scope of regular repeating periods of constant value is outside the scope of the conversation, because then we wouldn't be talking about how to put the tala!
(Oh, wait... of course there is carnatic music that does not have entirely regular patterns --- but not much?)
-
vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Nick, when I wrote that, I was not even stepping too far from practical music. Consider the alapana. There is rhythm in it but it is not to a thala. If you restrict the definition of rhythm to the rhythm of a CM song, what you say is true. I should not have said anything about numbers, I got side tracked there.
Anyway, that is not my main point regarding structure.
My inclination is to think of rhythm as providing form to the music. The other characterizations like 'the track the train runs on' are true but this interpretation is along an orthogonal axis as for as musical aesthetics are concerned. Here, I am strictly talking about how the patterns and groupings of swaras define the aesthetics we perceive in music and not the external manifestations of it in terms of beats, repeating patterns of beats or cycle length etc. That structure provide a lot of definition to the song. Like how two songs in the same raga with similar melodic aesthetics and set to the same thala can sound different. That is the aspect I am thinking of: when such differences are contributed primarily by the internal structure of how the notes are organized. (May be that word 'structure' invokes too much of a 'static' vibe and hence does not fit with the dynamic thing that rhythm in a song is.)
Anyway, that is not my main point regarding structure.
My inclination is to think of rhythm as providing form to the music. The other characterizations like 'the track the train runs on' are true but this interpretation is along an orthogonal axis as for as musical aesthetics are concerned. Here, I am strictly talking about how the patterns and groupings of swaras define the aesthetics we perceive in music and not the external manifestations of it in terms of beats, repeating patterns of beats or cycle length etc. That structure provide a lot of definition to the song. Like how two songs in the same raga with similar melodic aesthetics and set to the same thala can sound different. That is the aspect I am thinking of: when such differences are contributed primarily by the internal structure of how the notes are organized. (May be that word 'structure' invokes too much of a 'static' vibe and hence does not fit with the dynamic thing that rhythm in a song is.)
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
VK, I was being somewhat restrictive only because of the subject of the thread, which focusses not only on tala but on the manifestation of it as a practical necessity for musicians when singing and playing. They have a necessity of counting and beating, internally or externally (to the person, not the song) without which the music will be inaccurate, or even loose the definition of which you speak, and, ultimately, it's very form. So this is about a manifestation whether it is manifested with hands, legs or brain (???) cells* which is separate to the song itself but without which the song cannot be performed properly.
It is only the reckoning of the rhythm which is external to the music. The rhythm itself is intrinsic part of that music, and, as I think you are saying, if it is absent or altered, the song becomes ...a different song. No static vibe to that:dynamic indeed!
(off-topic: please have a look at Tune Smithy, from the same stable as Bounce Metronome. I think you might get a great deal of pleasure from both pieces of software and, also, they may have a place in your researches, which are better informed than mine)
*Which returns to my question: Where do musicians feel this counting mechanism within themselves? Perhaps it has, by long usage, actually come to reside in the hand and the leg? Perhaps it may be different, as suggested by the Feynman thinking, from person to person? SrinathK, other musicians here, whether stage or bathroom --- what is your experience/analysis of this?
It is only the reckoning of the rhythm which is external to the music. The rhythm itself is intrinsic part of that music, and, as I think you are saying, if it is absent or altered, the song becomes ...a different song. No static vibe to that:dynamic indeed!
(off-topic: please have a look at Tune Smithy, from the same stable as Bounce Metronome. I think you might get a great deal of pleasure from both pieces of software and, also, they may have a place in your researches, which are better informed than mine)
*Which returns to my question: Where do musicians feel this counting mechanism within themselves? Perhaps it has, by long usage, actually come to reside in the hand and the leg? Perhaps it may be different, as suggested by the Feynman thinking, from person to person? SrinathK, other musicians here, whether stage or bathroom --- what is your experience/analysis of this?
-
SrinathK
- Posts: 2477
- Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
Dear Nick H, in continuation of my earlier post, I have made a few observations on the vocal vs. the instrument issue from my experience (being an amateur I must add a disclaimer that I am only in the learning stage and my thought process and ability is nowhere near the league of very great musicians with decades of experience like LGJ or Chandrashekar or a PMI).
The fact is that it is easier to sing and use one's voice than to play the violin. The voice is a part of one's body and after sufficient vocal training, good singing practices become intuitive -- of course there is the fact that in Carnatic music, if you look below the top of the pyramid, there is little tendency to concentrate on tone or even correct vocal practices, so it's not even that hard. Apart from this, in vocal music, the hands are totally free to render the talangas -- this means that the work of counting the tala is taken out of the calculative side of the brain and instead it is delegated to purely kinesthetic memory. The sequence of talangas once memorized eliminates the need to count 1,2,3 and etc... For a layman it's sufficient can say that vocalists put the tala with their hands and in their head -- it is easy to know where you are simply from the tala-anga you are on, if it's a middle finger and it's Adi talam you know you are on the 4th beat and you don't have to dredge your memory or recalculate.
The hands are a most powerful reserve of muscle memory and combined with the intuitive ease of singing means that the act of singing & tala rendering in vocal music requires dramatically less processing power from the calculative side of the brain as well as the part that controls the motor nerves. This means that the vast majority of the brain's available capacity can be diverted to manodharma and mathematics instead.
On the other hand, the violin requires very precise control over bowing and fingering and the use of both hands in addition to processing the music in one's mind which requires considerably more processing power from the mind's motor control department. Playing the violin is not something natural to the human body -- it has to work hard just to get a note right in tune what to speak of memorizing complex bowing nuances. To add to this the toes and feet are nowhere near as flexible as the hands so rendering tala-angas as such is not possible -- the only toe movable to some extent is the big toe. Unlike the fingers, the toes do not have independent muscles to control individual fingers. So the only option is to tap the foot, keeping the tala in memory. This puts a huge strain on one's mental resource and when manodharma & laya mathematics is added to the equation it is equivalent to running an audio recorder recording long phrases -- equivalent to memorizing a complex journey through a city, working out complex math problems while trying to paint an intricate picture, at the same time trying to use mental GPS to find out where the hell you are and judge the distance to the *&##( eduppu point 
!! A violinist is a multitasking ninja.
I tried visualization too -- but mostly due to lack of practice, or perhaps due to the inherent nature of video processing it made it even more difficult to focus on the music -- video processing is highly intensive to the brain just as it is to a computer A violinists' challenge is even harder because most violinists might not have received the kind of laya training given to percussionists and they have to concentrate on raga, swara, swarasthana and shruti shuddam too. To add to all this misery, the poor violinist may find himself in the unenviable situation on stage where he can barely hear himself and in th end would have to take the blame for "breaking" the concert.
I hope you are aware that the cross legged position of the violinist can easily make your legs go numb (I suffer terribly from this and always need something to cushion myself) if you forgot to regularly adjust your posture and give your nerves some relief -- if that happens you cannot render the tala on the feet at all ! The cross legged position of a violinist is more cramped than normal and that restricts mobility. However I have found if you use a cushion such that your feet alone can freely hang over the edges, it gives them full freedom to move.
Did you know how bad an A/C can freeze a violinist's fingers? The oil on the fingerboard becomes thick and it will feel as though the board is made of glue.
Also after a point it is considerably easier to improvise your own phrases and make spot adjustments near the end than to try and grasp someone else's thought and reproduce it -- just as it is easier to speak spontaneously than to memorize lines, so the vocalist or main artiste again has an advantage. When you realize all this, the genius of an artiste like Lalgudi Jayaraman to be the greatest accompanist ever is an achievement the enormity of which will probably never be praised enough. Now take some time to stop here and think about all this...
Bottom line : A violinist must be the most complete of all musicians in every department...another LGJ all time achievement.
So where to begin? Now I've observed that there are three places where a leg can be moved -- at the toes, at the ankle and on the thigh and some range of motion is also available. Also you have two legs to use and since there is no "sacred tala-anga tradition" for the feet. So I'm currently trying to find a way to render laghus, dhrutams and the other talangas on my legs in a way that each anga gets a unique movement or series of movements. Now if I can succeed at that, it will take the work out of my head and into my legs and give me a similar advantage to the vocalist. I use fine metronome for help -- in the absence of footwork skills if it weren't for that metronome, I might have given up playing the violin forever!
I've found the chapu talas and rupaka tala are easy ones to put. I also have a sequence for Adi tala and am working on laghus in 5 jaathis. I will tell you how far I'm progressing subsequently...
The fact is that it is easier to sing and use one's voice than to play the violin. The voice is a part of one's body and after sufficient vocal training, good singing practices become intuitive -- of course there is the fact that in Carnatic music, if you look below the top of the pyramid, there is little tendency to concentrate on tone or even correct vocal practices, so it's not even that hard. Apart from this, in vocal music, the hands are totally free to render the talangas -- this means that the work of counting the tala is taken out of the calculative side of the brain and instead it is delegated to purely kinesthetic memory. The sequence of talangas once memorized eliminates the need to count 1,2,3 and etc... For a layman it's sufficient can say that vocalists put the tala with their hands and in their head -- it is easy to know where you are simply from the tala-anga you are on, if it's a middle finger and it's Adi talam you know you are on the 4th beat and you don't have to dredge your memory or recalculate.
The hands are a most powerful reserve of muscle memory and combined with the intuitive ease of singing means that the act of singing & tala rendering in vocal music requires dramatically less processing power from the calculative side of the brain as well as the part that controls the motor nerves. This means that the vast majority of the brain's available capacity can be diverted to manodharma and mathematics instead.
On the other hand, the violin requires very precise control over bowing and fingering and the use of both hands in addition to processing the music in one's mind which requires considerably more processing power from the mind's motor control department. Playing the violin is not something natural to the human body -- it has to work hard just to get a note right in tune what to speak of memorizing complex bowing nuances. To add to this the toes and feet are nowhere near as flexible as the hands so rendering tala-angas as such is not possible -- the only toe movable to some extent is the big toe. Unlike the fingers, the toes do not have independent muscles to control individual fingers. So the only option is to tap the foot, keeping the tala in memory. This puts a huge strain on one's mental resource and when manodharma & laya mathematics is added to the equation it is equivalent to running an audio recorder recording long phrases -- equivalent to memorizing a complex journey through a city, working out complex math problems while trying to paint an intricate picture, at the same time trying to use mental GPS to find out where the hell you are and judge the distance to the *&##( eduppu point
!! A violinist is a multitasking ninja.I tried visualization too -- but mostly due to lack of practice, or perhaps due to the inherent nature of video processing it made it even more difficult to focus on the music -- video processing is highly intensive to the brain just as it is to a computer
A violinists' challenge is even harder because most violinists might not have received the kind of laya training given to percussionists and they have to concentrate on raga, swara, swarasthana and shruti shuddam too. To add to all this misery, the poor violinist may find himself in the unenviable situation on stage where he can barely hear himself and in th end would have to take the blame for "breaking" the concert. I hope you are aware that the cross legged position of the violinist can easily make your legs go numb (I suffer terribly from this and always need something to cushion myself) if you forgot to regularly adjust your posture and give your nerves some relief -- if that happens you cannot render the tala on the feet at all ! The cross legged position of a violinist is more cramped than normal and that restricts mobility. However I have found if you use a cushion such that your feet alone can freely hang over the edges, it gives them full freedom to move.
Did you know how bad an A/C can freeze a violinist's fingers? The oil on the fingerboard becomes thick and it will feel as though the board is made of glue.
Also after a point it is considerably easier to improvise your own phrases and make spot adjustments near the end than to try and grasp someone else's thought and reproduce it -- just as it is easier to speak spontaneously than to memorize lines, so the vocalist or main artiste again has an advantage. When you realize all this, the genius of an artiste like Lalgudi Jayaraman to be the greatest accompanist ever is an achievement the enormity of which will probably never be praised enough. Now take some time to stop here and think about all this...
Bottom line : A violinist must be the most complete of all musicians in every department...another LGJ all time achievement.
So where to begin? Now I've observed that there are three places where a leg can be moved -- at the toes, at the ankle and on the thigh and some range of motion is also available. Also you have two legs to use and since there is no "sacred tala-anga tradition" for the feet. So I'm currently trying to find a way to render laghus, dhrutams and the other talangas on my legs in a way that each anga gets a unique movement or series of movements. Now if I can succeed at that, it will take the work out of my head and into my legs and give me a similar advantage to the vocalist. I use fine metronome for help -- in the absence of footwork skills if it weren't for that metronome, I might have given up playing the violin forever!
I've found the chapu talas and rupaka tala are easy ones to put. I also have a sequence for Adi tala and am working on laghus in 5 jaathis. I will tell you how far I'm progressing subsequently...
Last edited by SrinathK on 31 May 2013, 21:53, edited 1 time in total.
-
Nick H
- Posts: 9383
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Re: Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists
SrinathK, I regularly sing the praises of violin accompanists. I am always amazed by what they do, sometimes even in the face of not knowing the song. There are details in your posts that I had never imagined, and it gives a great insight. Thank you