Techniques to keep Taala for instrumentalists

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music
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girish_a
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Post by girish_a »

Hello All,
I would like to know from the instrumentalists here about how they keep the Taala when playing their instrument. Flutists, for example, have to keep the taala with their feet. Besides maintaining the Laya, the instrumentalist also has to track the progression of the Laghus, Dhrutas and Anudhrutas. Vocalists have the advantage of their free hand with which they keep the Taala, but it is not so simple for the instrumentalists.

So please share what techniques you use to keep the Taala accurately. Any techniques you share here will benefit music students greatly and are very much appreciated.

Thank You!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks Girish. I am all ears. I have the same problem and it is one of the reasons why my thala is bad while playing the flute. I never trained any part of my body to independently and autonomously keep the thalam like a metronome. I see violinists do this with their foot also, it is quite amazing. That up and down motion with the foot is so much like a metronome and it is as if it is disconnected from the motions of the rest of the body. I can not even do the kids playground stuff where 'you rub your stomach in a circular motion as you are tapping your head'.:P

mohan
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Post by mohan »

All instrumentalists have this problem and there is no easy way out. For practice there are Indian metronomes (talameters) available. When this is unavailable, find a musical relative or friend to put talam for you! The last resort is to use the feet but this is quite tough.

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-members, Nothing is tough if you train your body in such a way that it acts according to your requirements. Except Violinists all other Vocalists or Instrumentalists sing or play music to their own rhythm as they are trained or practised. But, irrespective of the manner in which a Violinist is trained or practiced, he/she is compelled to follow the main artist irrespective of his/her abilities or dis-abilities. That makes all the difference in maintaining his own rhythm always adjusting it to the ups and downs of the main artist. However, the main artist always frowns him upon whenever he/she himself/herself successfully missed his/her own rhythm. Many of the audience are unaware of the struggle of the poor Violinist on the stage. As a professional Violin-accompanist I had hundreds of such bitter experiences in my life. As I already narrated somewhere in one of my posts, while learing the driving of a car is also equally tough in the beginning, later, gradually the limbs of your body do all the needed acts to arrive at your destination safe in one piece. That’s all. amsharma..

vijay
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Post by vijay »

As Sharmaji says, with practise it can be achieved...actually I am not too sure whether it is "easier" to keep time with one's hands as compared to the feet - it could be just mental conditioning...the feet may possibly even have a more natural feel for rhythm...I think one needs to develop an innate sense of rhythm which is independent of hands, feet etc. Of course this must be really hard to do, especially when one's attention is focussed on an instrument...

I guess metronomes are good to help you acclimatize but it is importnt to have your taalam-keeping figured out if you intend to become a concert level performer...

Even vocalists like TMK/Vijay Siva often keep talam with their feet...

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Western classical music students are taught to keep rhythm internally, without any outward show. Tapping the foot, even, is frowned upon!

vijay
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Post by vijay »

True Nick, but the complexity of rhythm in CM is of a different order (although I can't really claim any expertise in WCM - the assumption is based on my limited listening experience)...ideally though, developing an internal rhtyhm ought to be the way to go...as I am trying to do, even as a rasika, since my belligerent tala keeping used to cause quite a few frowns !

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

I think most carnatic musicians of performing level would be able to keep talam without external show. Mridangists, of course, can.

This is what laya is about, according to my understanding (which arises from my lack of it, so is necessarily incomplete) --- it is rhythm sense rather than show.

But we need to hear from musicians on this. How do they feel tala? Is the sense fettered in any way by not expressing outwardly on fingers or toes?

Whilst carnatic music has been said to have the most complex rhythm structure of any music, much of what we see performed in Adi talam in most concerts is not, I would have thought, outstandingly complex, leaving aside the mathematical intricacies of pallavi or the konokal calculations of swara.

The mridangist, perhaps, has a more difficult job than many a drummer, in that he must find a million ways of playing even sarva laghu so that we do not feel repetition or boredom.

girish_a
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Post by girish_a »

Thanks everyone, for your observations. By the way, Nick, I enjoyed mridangam.com very much :) Nice site, keep it up!
Back to the point of keeping the taala. Yeah, I do understand it is difficult. But surely there must be some way performing instrumentalists keep the taala.

Take Chaturashra Jaati Dhruva Taala (CJDT for conciseness), for instance. The Dhruva Taala cycle is Laghu-Dhruta-Laghu-Laghu. So, if you count two cycles of CJDT by hand, you have five claps, a turn of the palm and no less than twelve claps again before the next turn of the palm :)

Now, I'm not ready to believe that even the most accomplished exponent can track such a complicated progression by just "feeling" it. I don't think it just "comes to you" with experience. When tapping the feet, there must be some kind of marking for the various parts of the taala. That is the mystery I have been trying to solve.

So I want to keep this thread alive to see if someone can point to something useful.

Thanks!

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

girish_a wrote:Thanks everyone, for your observations. By the way, Nick, I enjoyed mridangam.com very much :) Nice site, keep it up!
Thanks, but it is work that I did some years ago now.


Take Chaturashra Jaati Dhruva Taala (CJDT for conciseness), for instance. The Dhruva Taala cycle is Laghu-Dhruta-Laghu-Laghu. So, if you count two cycles of CJDT by hand, you have five claps, a turn of the palm and no less than twelve claps again before the next turn of the palm :)
?? Each laghu has one clap, each dhruta has one clap = 4 claps only per cycle only. But I'm not good at counting so I might be missing something here!
Now, I'm not ready to believe that even the most accomplished exponent can track such a complicated progression by just "feeling" it. I don't think it just "comes to you" with experience. When tapping the feet, there must be some kind of marking for the various parts of the taala. That is the mystery I have been trying to solve.
Mridangists can, and do. I suspect many instrumentalists /vocalists can. The task of getting all those claps, waves and finger counts in the right order and number is not to be under-rated; it is something I often fail at. The physical representation of the tala, in itself, does not make following any easier, until it reaches the point where the body itself knows what to do, and at that point, it might as well be internal as external.

Conjecture, on my point, of course!
So I want to keep this thread alive to see if someone can point to something useful.

Thanks!
Me too. This is a question that interests me very much.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

nick H wrote:Western classical music students are taught to keep rhythm internally, without any outward show. Tapping the foot, even, is frowned upon!
We have to remember also that 'what is considered easy or innate' is Sarvalaghu type beats no matter whether it is WM, W pop, Jazz, HM or CM. Feeling comfortable with Syncopated beats or Kanakku is different. It will be useful to know if a Western classical music student feels comfortable in heavily syncopated beat arrangement. If so, since their training is quite methodical, we can learn from that. But if they are only comfortable with Sarvalaghu, then there is not much there.

Does the conductor play the role of 'keeping the beat' in addition to inspiring different levels and quality of performances. ( of course, the problem that the conductor solves is to keep the whole herd of musicians going in one uniform way ) .

But I agree with one point Nick is making. Even in high school Orchestra, students have the ability to count off beats mentally as they are looking at the notation sheets, as they wait for their turn. This is just after a year of being in a student orchestra.

There are three aspects to the Original Poster's question...

1) Do you have the innate ability to feel the beat when someone else sings the song? Sarvalaghu, Kanakku as well as other syncopated variety

2) Can you keep the beat with the foot while moving the rest of the body in different ways? This is basically translating the internal sense to the foot.

3) Can you mentally keep track of where one is in the tala cycle? I am not sure how many have this. Most of the time, the music guides you through since there are familiar structures like Arudhi, First beat and fifth beat rest points etc. ( WM do not have this requirement since their measures are relatively small in number )

girish_a
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Post by girish_a »

?? Each laghu has one clap, each dhruta has one clap = 4 claps only per cycle only. But I'm not good at counting so I might be missing something here!
I should have made it clearer. Indeed, the Laghu has one clap, technically speaking. But when I said four, I meant that a Laghu in Chaturashra Jaati consists of one clap and three finger counts. And when you sing, you actually clap for each finger count. So, for CJDT, by the 1-0-1-1 formula of Dhruva Taala (you will know that the Laghu is denoted by 1 and the Dhruta by 0), you have this:

(1 Clap + 3 Finger Counts) + (1 Clap + 1 turn of the palm) + (1 Clap + 3 Finger Counts) + (1 Clap + 3 Finger Counts)
which is 4+2+4+4 = 14 beats for a cycle. I should have used "beat" instead of "clap".

Oh, I also made a slight mistake:
So, if you count two cycles of CJDT by hand, you have five claps, a turn of the palm and no less than twelve claps again before the next turn of the palm :)
should actually be
So, if you count two cycles of CJDT by hand, you have five claps, a turn of the palm and no less than THIRTEEN claps again before the next turn of the palm :)
, where, of course, "clap = beat".

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

OK.
And when you sing, you actually clap for each finger count.
I do wish people wouldn't. Spoils the whole thing!

Of course, the performer is not putting talam for our benefit, but I do like to see the kriyas "pronounced" (;)) properly and clearly if it is to be done at all.

Some artists do; some don't.

mri_fan
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Post by mri_fan »

if you asked concert level musicians (violin, mridangam, vocal) to individually play a song/tani without showing any sort of talam, they will be able to do it 99/100 times. The main purpose of expressing tala I think is for group co-ordination and for the audience's benefit. A violinist does not need to look at the singer's talam to put a swara and so on, but the vocalist putting it does lead to fewer mistakes. THe mridangam artist putting talam with their foot is also not at all required (not everyone does it), but it can serve as a back-up plan, should the vocalist suddenly stop putting talam when the mridangam artist is relying on it.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I remember the times when SSI used to punish his thighs putting taaLa when maami had literally to apply poultice :)
Some of us felt that he should borrow the thigh of the 'bad student' in the class for taaLa keeping, which would be good for both of them :)

cienu
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Post by cienu »

It is said that the right thigh of SSI had a huge black patch , almost like an oversized mole , from decades of "punishing" tala keeping ! :)

rasaali
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Post by rasaali »

mri_fan wrote:if you asked concert level musicians (violin, mridangam, vocal) to individually play a song/tani without showing any sort of talam, they will be able to do it 99/100 times. The main purpose of expressing tala I think is for group co-ordination and for the audience's benefit. A violinist does not need to look at the singer's talam to put a swara and so on, but the vocalist putting it does lead to fewer mistakes. THe mridangam artist putting talam with their foot is also not at all required (not everyone does it), but it can serve as a back-up plan, should the vocalist suddenly stop putting talam when the mridangam artist is relying on it.
MRI_fan, I can pretty safely say that watching the main artiste put the tala does help violinists during swaras in two ways -

1. keeping track of the lagu vs drutam and coming to edam
2. being able to reproduce any kanakku patterns that the vocalist executed.

It is not, IMHO, an innate human trait to distinguish between lagu and drutam while in the full flow of swarakalpana. Many artistes have mastered it and to them i salute. But there are many who would prefer to see the talam when playing swaras.

laki1607
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Post by laki1607 »

Musicians such as U Shrinivas, Veena Gayathri, Ghatam Vinayakaram Veena Dhannamal were known for their expert laya sense. The had layam in their blood and could relate to any talam at any point in time. I remember U Shrinivas quoting that each time he renders a concert he gets a view of Goddess Saraswati opening a book in front of him and just plays that. Thalam requires immense sadhana and practice without which it is difficult to understand and appreciate. Vocalists have an advantage but even then there are several situations where vocalists and accompanists change the beats.

vainika
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Post by vainika »

The above listing would be incomplete without mention of the late S. Balachander, vainika nonpareil. His laya-gnyAna was such that he could play lengthy and involved kalpanAsvara passages without so much as a glance to see where he was with respect to the tAla cycle. And if the mridangist got a little too-high spirited a scowl from SB would suffice to cut him down to size...

puru00047
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Post by puru00047 »

can you guys help on gettin an online metronome for carnatic talas.
guitar player
prasanna fan
puru

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-mkember, puru0047, You can get an online Metronome from the following link to serve your purpose. Please try. amsharma.
http://www.gieson.com/Library/projects/ ... metronome/

thenpaanan
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Post by thenpaanan »

msakella wrote:Dear brother-mkember, puru0047, You can get an online Metronome from the following link to serve your purpose. Please try. amsharma.
http://www.gieson.com/Library/projects/ ... metronome/
Sharma garu,

Thanks for this pointer. I tried to use it with my singing practice right away. I was amazed to discover how wayward my laya is, even on well-practised songs. Some inaccuracy is to be expected but the actual large gap between my hand keeping beat and the computer metronome was enlightening. Previously I would only get a sense of the whole discrepancy but now I can tell precisely where inside an avarthana I am dragging or speeding. (Of course I have to worry about computer fluctuations due to varying CPU load as well but that is easy to minimize.)

Thanks again!

-Then Paanan

rajumds
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Post by rajumds »

I too downlaoded the software, but I have absolutely no clue about the settings.

Thenpannan can you post the setting for adi & rupaka talam

thenpaanan
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Post by thenpaanan »

rajumds wrote:I too downlaoded the software, but I have absolutely no clue about the settings.

Thenpannan can you post the setting for adi & rupaka talam
Here is one possible way to use this tool. Once you have the program running, on the top panel is the window for number of beats. For Adi type 8 into that field (you could select 16 as well but 8 is simpler). This will create 8 rectangles in each row of the array of cells in the picture below. Choose any of the instruments listed and click on the leftmost rectangle in that row. This first cell represents the first beat of the laghu (the beat that is maximally responsible for blackening Sri SSI's right thigh :-)). Then skip the next 3 cells in that row and select the 5th cell. This would be the first beat of the first dhrutham. Skip the next cell and select the 7th cell. You are done for Adi talam. You will get the sound beat-silent-silent-silent-beat-silent-beat-silent over and over again (and you can see the progression above the top row). Now the silent parts are really silent and if you have trouble keeping time during the silent parts, you can choose another instrument (I like "rim" the best for this purpose) and select exactly those cells in that "rim" row that are silent in the main row. Now you will get beat-rim-rim-rim-beat-rim-beat-rim. If you want to go further you can select different instruments for the laghu and dhrutham beats so you know which part of the cycle you are in. Finally the default speed is quite high and maybe unsuitable for this use. So in the window that says "bpm" decrease the number (e.g. 40 seems a good madhyamakala tempo). But you will have to experiment to find your comfort speed and that is also likely to change from one song to the next.

For Rupakam, if you are using the simpler 3-beat version, then you can select cycle of 3 and set it to be beat-beat-rim. For the 6-beat version, it will be beat-rim-beat-rim-rim-rim.

Similarly you can get Misra Chapu with 7 beats per cycle: beat-beat-rim-beat-rim-beat-rim.

What I like especially is that since there are 6 instruments available that can play simultaneously, one can play say Tisra Triputa in khanda nadai and go crazy selecting different sounds for different beats. And my favorite part, you can choose to play two different talams simultaneously and see if you can switch without effort from one to the other. Of course you will have to select a long cycle (LCM of the talam lengths) and that can get unwieldy.

Just a word of friendly advice: I confirmed from some mridangam vidwans that what is considered "perfect" playing is not necessarily metronomic. This is because our sense of speed is contextual -- and thus the performer's and audience's sense of time speeds up or slows down marginally depending on what is being sung or played. One vidwan told me that he experimented with a metronome and said that the standard korvais that we play do not sound as charming without such speed adjustments. Thus we tend to speed up during the farans and then slow down for the korvai and, in fact. we are used to it and expect it. So metronomes should be used no doubt to get a steady sense of time into our heads but not to obsess over very small variations.

If other users of this program find innovative ways to use this program for CM, please post here and share.

Enjoy!

--Then Paanan
Last edited by thenpaanan on 15 Mar 2008, 19:40, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Then Paanan:

After amsharmaji mentioned the above link to us, I have been playing with it as well, very much along the same lines as you have.

I do not even use it much for playing or singing. It is a lot of fun to recite the sollu kattu to the beats.

For example: Set it to
BPM : 10 ( this actually equates to 10 cycles of the number of beats per minute rather than beats per minute ). In its terminology, the beats number is the number of sub-beats.
Beats : 8.
Start of the Laghu and Drutham to 'tom hi' and the rest of the beats to 'kick'. ( this is just something I got used to, no other significance )

Here is how the user interface looks like

Image

This is a nice slow beat representing Adi.

Now, here is where the fun begins. ( What follows is something I did. This is not a sollu kattu lesson. This is just for fun for an amateur/lay person. In fact, rhythm is a weak point of mine and so I spend extra effort in getting myself better. So do not treat this as a lesson since I am the last person to be teaching anyone on this topic. If you want a more formal and thorough treatment for learning purposes, please follow Sharmaji's initial lessons that are available here: http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~chandra/ . BTW, these lessons are soon to be refreshed with new expanded content which Sharmaji has worked very hard to create and graciously agreed to share with the public. Stay tuned for further details on that in the next few weeks ).

Don't be put off by the "apparent" complexity or the length of this post. This is all quite straightforward once one gets comfortable in reciting the sollus to the beat. You can then try these things to any repeating sounds, like the periodic sounds you hear when you travel by train, or to ticks of the wall clock etc.

1) Start the metronome tool and get comfortable with the beat. Sync your tapping of the hand to the beat of the metronome which should be easy.

2) Recite, Tha Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Ju Nu - One per beat. This will cover one cycle of Adi. Do this for a few cycles. Let us call this first speed. ( I think this matches what Arun refers to as Geetham speed in his notation tool)

3) Recite ThaKa DhiMi ThaKa JuNu ThaKa DhiMi ThaKa JuNu . This is for one cycle of Adi. You are packing two sollus in one beat. Do this for a few cycles. Let us call this second speed. For beginners, it may take a few attempts to get this right. Do not go to the next step until you get this right. I would expect that a raw beginner can get this under control in half an hour.

4) Recite ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu
This is for one cycle of Adi. You are packing 4 solus in one beat. Do this for a few cycles. Let us call this third speed. For beginners, this can be a bit of a tongue twister. And also getting to fit the 4 sollus in one beat will take a bit of time to get used to it. Once you get comfortable, it should flow smoothly.

5) Combine the above three together. Do one cycle each of first speed, second speed and third speed. And end with the first speed. Basically, Steps 2, 3 and 4 in sequence. This actually sounds quite impressive, though this would be considered a preliminary lesson by professionals. When a lay person hears this, he/she will think you are a professional ;) My guess is that even a beginner can do step 4 in a couple of hours of intermittent practise. And another hour or so to execute step 5.

Let us continue with the fun.
6) Just as a flourish, Recite

ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu

You will be packing 8 sollu kattus in one beat. Let us call this fourth speed. This requiers some breath control. Here, in my opinion, the return on effort for amateurs is diminishing. This will be fun but if one does not get it, it is OK.

7) So far, the above would be considered Chathusra Nadai. Let us try other Nadais.

Recite,

ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa

This will cover one cycle of Adi.
This is tisram. You will be packing 3 sollu kattus in one beat. It takes some effort to get used to this. But it is fun.
Make sure that you recite equally spaced sollus. Beware of the possibility that you leave some silence after the ThaKiTa. Then it is not really thisram. It is just chathusram with 3 sollus and 1 silence. It is easy to catch if you fall into it. Thisram should flow with equally spaced sollus without any extra silences. ( this is true for all the nadais ).

8) Recite

ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa

This is tisram in double the speed of the above. Interestingly, if you nailed step 7, step 8 should come fairly quickly. You will be packing 6 sollu kattus in one beat.

9) Recite

ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa

This will again cover one cycle of Adi.
This is Khandam. You will be packing 5 sollus in one beat. Make sure you keep each sollu equal length. This can get to be a bit of challenge to do this consistently over eight beats but it is not high difficulty. It is worth nailing this for the pure aesthetic effect. ( If someone around you is free spirited and like dancing, Khandam has a way of making them shake their body to the beat ;) ).

10) Recite

ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa


This again will cover one cycle of Adi. This is Misram. You will be packing 7 sollus in one beat. Make sure you keep each sollus equal length. This is now challenging. If you think you got it in first try, I would do it a few times to make sure you really got it.

11) You can do Sankirnam by packing 9 sollus in one beat, but at this 10 BPM, I do not find it quite appealing. You may have to slow the BPM down a few notches to practise Sankirnam

12) Now the real fun is putting all this together. In the following, each grouping separated by space is for one beat of the Metronome.

Tha Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Ju Nu

ThaKa DhiMi ThaKa JuNu ThaKa DhiMi ThaKa JuNu

ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa ThaKiTa

ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu

ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa ThaKaThaKiTa

ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa ThaKiTaThaKiTa

ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa ThaKaDhiMiThaKiTa

13) Now let us combine the speeds.

Tha Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Ju Nu
ThaKa DhiMi ThaKa JuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu
Tha ka Dhi Mi Thaka DhiMi ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu
ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu ThaKaDhiMi ThaKaJuNu Thaka DhiMi ThaKa JuNu
ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu Tha ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu Ka ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu Dhi ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu Mi
ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKa ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu DhiMi ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu ThaKa ThaKaDhiMiThaKaJuNu JuNu
Tha Ka Dhi Mi Tha Ka Ju Nu
Tha

Now you can do the same for mixing in other Nadais here as you get comfortable for more variety. As you can see, one's imagination and skills are the limiting factors. There is something for everybody depending on interest and personal aesthetic considerations.

I think this would all be considered Sarva Laghu since there is not too much of a calculation going on, speed changes are all integral multiples and there is not any off-beat syncopation etc.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

Sarva laghu would refer to accompaniment lessons, whereas your excellent illustration just given refers to classroom practice.

I would add one hint and one further idea:

Hint: Set the basic beat speed to be slow. That way you can reach third speed without straining tongue and brain cells too much.

idea: when you are comfortable with tisra ta ki ta to each beat, maintain the tisra, but say takadimi.

it will come like ||takadi mitaka dimita kadimi|. Keep the stress on 'ta'. Easier to do to a metronome than when putting tala with hands, as the brain wants the stress on the clap.

Mixed nadai, tisra first half, chatusra second half:

|| takadi mitaka dimita kadimi | takadimi takadimi takadimi takadimi ||

But we do move away from the original question here...

rajumds
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Post by rajumds »

Thank you very much VK & thenpannan

I asked for it to help my son in keeping talam while playing mrudangam

But I have got hooked to it

Thanks again

rajumds
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16

Post by rajumds »

VK

I find the challenge is in reciting 'ThaKiTaThaKiTa' in one adi talam cycle . This is the tisram equivalent of your step 2. Packing 3 or 4 or 5 sollus per beat is comparitively easier than reciting 6 or 10 sollus in adi talam cycle (instead of standard 8 of chatusra andai)
Last edited by rajumds on 16 Mar 2008, 14:46, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

rajumds:

Just to make sure my representation is clear, ThaKiTaThaKiTa' is to be fit in one beat of Adi ( since there are no spaces between the sollus )

But what you seem to be attempting is something different. If I understood right, you want to do ' tha ki ta tha ki ta' in the same time it takes to do ' tha ka dhi mi tha ka ju nu' in first speed. You are attempting this over one Adi thala cycle itself and not in one beat. I can see why that is quite challenging. Did I get what you are attempting correctly?

Only consolation is, in practise, in first speed there is really no Nadai difference. Each Sollu ( sub-beat ) takes one full beat. When number of sub-beats per beat is 1, then there is no Nadai to speak of. I am not sure if what you are attempting is something people normally do.

msakella
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Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, nickH, This is the way of rendering Chaturashra-jati in Trisra-gati and, in the same way, I have rendered the Jatis of all Alankaras in Chaturashra-gati and Trisra-gatis consecutively in the Laya-exercise No.6 and furnished the video-clippings in Youtube.com/msakella. Interested aspirants can follow it and practice. amsharma.

rajumds
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Post by rajumds »

Yes ..

In chatusra nadai first speed you have 1 sub beat (sollus) for 1 beat resulting in 8 sub beats (sollus) for 1 cycle of adi talam.

Now for tisram first speed you need 3/4 subeats(sollus) for 1 beat resulting in 6 subbeats(sollus) for 1 cycle of adi talam.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

three or five beats in the time of eight is probably most jazz musicians could do.

Otherwise we can do it by calculating the length of the pauses, and I'm sure a mridangist would not find it hard to produce, on stage, instantly.

Adi, tisra nadai:

|| Tha , , , Ki , , , Ta , , , | Tha , , , Ki , , , Ta , , ,

|| Tha ; ; ; , Ki ; ; ; , Ta ; ; ; , || or
|| Tha ; ; ; , Ki ; , | ; ; Ta ; ; ; , ||


One of the "tricks" my teacher would do in classroom demonstration is play different 4 with one hand and five with the other.

Another, which I saw him do once (and another musician present at the time said it was not possible) was to take my simple chatusra/tisra examlpe:

|| takadi mitaka dimita kadimi | takadimi takadimi takadimi takadimi ||

and alternate chatusra, tisra, chatusra, tisra,chatusra, tisra, chatusra. The nadais no longer change on the beats: it requires absolute accuracy of both talam-putting and saying.

Mridangists, and some other musicians, do this stuff. It is a level and depth of laya that leaves the likes of me, who can barely keep talam from one end of a song to another, open-mouthed.

And I have the additional problem that I was never very quick with numbers :(

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

rajumds: You are going somewhere I have never been..;) Sub-beats per beat is what is needed for Nadai. You change the sub-beats per beat to change nadai or speed. You are now talking about sub-beats over a tala cycle. Also, terminology wise, in first speed there is no difference between Chathusram, Tisram, Khandam etc. I think what you are attempting has to be called something else.

Just a note about the metronome tool, The BPM number can be confusing. That specifies the number of main beats per minute. The Beats number specifies the number of sub-beats per main beat ( nadai or speed ).

Note 2: The tool does not keep up to the BPM number as you increase the number of beats ( i.e sub-beats ). Upto 5, it is OK, 7 is reasonably OK but at 9 there is a very noticable slow down.

puru00047
Posts: 87
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 11:37

Post by puru00047 »

mates i found beatcraft on the net.
it is fascinating. as my bro is a mridangam player he knew all the settings of the software and all the time signatures. it was quite wonderful how he handled all the complex western percussion notations to make them work for more complex talas like misra chapu and sankeerna chapu..

beatcraft also has a tabla preset..but it is a bit boring.

but still i would prefer a live player like my bro rather than a computer dictating terms while i am on guitar.....

prasanna fan
puru

girish_a
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Post by girish_a »

I was pleased to see renewed activity on this thread. But I sense that the discussion is moving away from the original question, as Nick has pointed out. May I suggest that we make a course-correction?

So here is my question (questions, actually) again in a more conversational style:

Question 1:
Assume that you are a flutist and are playing a Kriti. There is no one keeping the taala for you and there is no one playing the Mridangam - you are all alone, so you can't glance around. The taala is rather complex, and you need to keep the taala. How do you do it? A vocalist uses his hand and fingers for counting the beats, but you are playing the flute - your hands are busy and you need to use your feet. What is it that you do with your feet corresponding to the claps, waves of the hand and finger counts that the vocalist has the luxury of using? Now I know from experience that it is difficult to use the fingers on your feet to count, so there must be some other way to do that. What is that other way?

Question 2:
In the midst of the song, you notice that you have suddenly lost track of the Taala (woe!). You are still tapping your feet and the laya is fine, but you dont know where in the Taala you are and you need to get back on track. How do you do that? How do you know where in the taala you are if you stop counting and want to get back on track?
Last edited by girish_a on 18 Mar 2008, 18:23, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Oh dear, that's a bit like me asking the raga people if they wouldn't mind not using sa ri ga ma --- because just as that is the language of melody, so is takadimi the language of rhythm , but then so is laghu and drutham and so on...

One violinist I've watched quite a lot uses one foot for a clap, and the other for a wave.

I've seen musicians who, when they want to emphasise the tala to their fellows, or to someone in the audience keeping tala for them (which is, of course, an answer in itself), use the knees in this fashion, but only for a cycle or so, until the signal is picked up and acted upon.

It is quite easy to count to three or four without thinking about it, and in simpler pieces, one just feels it in the shape of the music. That takes care of the finger counts. Extrapolating from my own elementary accomplishment, how many more must an accomplished carnatic instrumentalist, whose schooling has been in numbers as much as melody, be able to count to?

I'm not at all sure that there are many stage performers who do get lost in the talam, at least during singing compositions, but, if they did, does it really matter? I'm going to stick my neck out and say no!!! They know what they are playing, and only have to continue to the end of that line, at worst, to pick up the count of the tala again. As long as they keep the tempo even, who would notice?

But, as they have learnt the tala from the first attempt and then practice of the song, probably it is unlikely.

Even in performing swaras, where some artists seem more reliant than others on some subtle indication from a colleague, who knows from a glance when to give it, if track of the tala is lost, as long as the calculation is not forgotten it can be completed! Of course, if the starting point is lost, that is a different matter.

I conjecture, and I hope you don't feel that I waste your time, but what I'm working myself towards is the thought that, outside of the practice room, the putting of talam is complimentary to, rather than in any way necessary to, the performing artist.

I look forward to hearing how right or wrong I am!

girish_a
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Post by girish_a »

Oh dear, that's a bit like me asking the raga people if they wouldn't mind not using sa ri ga ma --- because just as that is the language of melody, so is takadimi the language of rhythm , but then so is laghu and drutham and so on...
I removed that note from my post. Thanks for the feedack.
I'm not at all sure that there are many stage performers who do get lost in the talam, at least during singing compositions, but, if they did, does it really matter? I'm going to stick my neck out and say no!!! They know what they are playing, and only have to continue to the end of that line, at worst, to pick up the count of the tala again. As long as they keep the tempo even, who would notice?
It does matter. They do know what they are playing, as far as the song is concerned, but what about the Muktaaya at the end of the Pallavi or Anupallavi when you progress from there to the next part of the Kriti? You need to start the Anupallavi and Charanam at the right beat, so you do need to know where you are in the Taala.
Even in performing swaras, where some artists seem more reliant than others on some subtle indication from a colleague, who knows from a glance when to give it, if track of the tala is lost, as long as the calculation is not forgotten it can be completed! Of course, if the starting point is lost, that is a different matter.
So how do you ensure you don't forget the calculation? Isn't that why the musician has to keep the Taala? So if you are not keeping it, or you don't know where you are, doesn't it mean that the calculation has gone awry?
I conjecture, and I hope you don't feel that I waste your time, but what I'm working myself towards is the thought that, outside of the practice room, the putting of talam is complimentary to, rather than in any way necessary to, the performing artist.
I believe you are speaking from a Mridangist's perspective, but I feel that for other instrumentalists and vocalists, the putting of the talam is necessary, rather than complimentary. I have observed that Mridangists don't so much as even glance at those who are putting the talam (by which I imply that the inherent characteristic of Mridangam-playing automatically guides the Mridangist through the taala), but it is not so for others. The main artist may not put the taala , but I think they do need some kind of a compass to guide them (for example, he or she may have learned to listen to the Mridangam and use its beats as a guide).

Of course, I may be wrong, and I look forward to hearing any refutations.
Last edited by girish_a on 18 Mar 2008, 21:39, edited 1 time in total.

puru00047
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Post by puru00047 »

for generations talas have been a mental practice for instrumentalists.
and CM is a traditional art. no matter what technical enhancements one may think of practicing instruments with a mental tala is recomended.
i am a guitar player and o have a very poor voice and shruti maintenece.
my method is to practise the song's sahitya with a mental tala by merely singing first. then i work the tala.. and then i play the guitar with my sister singing...my bro's havin exams and i cant disturb him to play mridangam...so i have made it a mental practice

try try till u succeed

prasanna fan
puru

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

girish_a wrote:
... ... ... so is takadimi the language of rhythm , but then so is laghu and drutham and so on...
I removed that note from my post. Thanks for the feedack.
Not at all! We seem to be doing very well so far without recourse to solukattu. Much as I'm enjoying the conversation so far, I'm sure you too wish that more experienced musicians would join in to tell us how it really is
I'm not at all sure that there are many stage performers who do get lost in the talam ... ... . As long as they keep the tempo even, who would notice?
It does matter. They do know what they are playing, as far as the song is concerned, but what about the Muktaaya at the end of the Pallavi or Anupallavi when you progress from there to the next part of the Kriti? You need to start the Anupallavi and Charanam at the right beat, so you do need to know where you are in the Taala.
That muktaaya, or thiermanum is, in itself, a great sign pointing to the beginning of the line. In my frequent audience experience of being lost in the talam in a piece of music I do not know, that three line pattern tells me surely I can restart my talam counting; one.... two.... NOW! So long, of course as I have managed to capture the edipu. The artist on the stage won't have been in my ignorant situation anyhow.

Even in performing swaras, ... ... ... as long as the calculation is not forgotten it can be completed!
So how do you ensure you don't forget the calculation? Isn't that why the musician has to keep the Taala? So if you are not keeping it, or you don't know where you are, doesn't it mean that the calculation has gone awry?
The 'calculation' is a composition in itself. I'm not saying that they never get composed on the spot, but mostly they will be picked from the repertoire. My guess is that artists that do not have a really good grip on laya and talam do not even attempt nadai changes --- or RTP. Yes, if confusion comes in the calculation then all is lost.
I believe you are speaking from a Mridangist's perspective, but I feel that for other instrumentalists and vocalists, the putting of the talam is necessary, rather than complimentary. I have observed that Mridangists don't so much as even glance at those who are putting the talam (by which I imply that the inherent characteristic of Mridangam-playing automatically guides the Mridangist through the taala), but it is not so for others. The main artist may not put the taala , but I think they do need some kind of a compass to guide them (for example, he or she may have learned to listen to the Mridangam and use its beats as a guide).
I really wish I could speak from the mridangist's perpective! The fact that I have attended some classes does not mean that I have developed that wonderful laya sense that is vital for every mridangist, and not so uncommon to other pro artists. It is true that I gained what insight I have from a mridangist, but, truly, my perspective is that of a simple audience member who has always had a wish to understand more of what happens on stage, which is why I went to class in the first place, rather than having any ambition to perform. The process of making music fascinates me, and I.m guessing that it does you too, as questions like this tend to be taken for granted by most, and go unasked and unanswered.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

This conversation has been great. I hope instrumental artists who can relate to Girish's question can pitch in with actual concert experience. No offense to anyone, we seem to be talking around the basic question that Girish is getting at. Do musicians ( vocalists and instrumentalists but instrumentalists especially ) really need someone else to keep the thala or is it all mental or is it a combination. We can all agree that the composition itself provides enough built-in mile markers for the musician to rely on without needing any external manifestations of the cycle position. But I think Girish is asking about other 'free form' phases of the concert. It looks to me that we do not have to conclude 'it is all mental' for instrumentalists since they have some ways of counting. May be they compartmentalize it using other counting methods. Those are the things will be interesting to know.

Also, it will be good if we talk about the musicians with normal and adequate skills in laya which represents the 95% of professionals and not the 5% extrememely gifted ones.

girish_a
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Post by girish_a »

But I think Girish is asking about other 'free form' phases of the concert.
Exactly. You worded it very well.

I posted a message in the general discussions section a couple of weeks ago inviting experienced persons to this thread, but it doesn't appear to have caught the attention of many. And that post has now got lost under the masses. If I went back and posted another invitation to here, well, that would probably be spam.

We could lie low for some time but if nothing useful is forthcoming, put out another advertisement with a catchy headline, and hope it draws the forum's compassionate attention to the trials of the taala-impaired.
Last edited by girish_a on 18 Mar 2008, 23:41, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Puru's point
for generations talas have been a mental practice for instrumentalists.
says a lot, but I'd still like to hear from others.

There are many signals that pass, both ways, between instrumentalist and mridangist, and it would be an unfriendly and awkward mridangist (and one not too keen on getting other engagements) who would allow an artist to be openly embarrassed by a slip. His job is to accompany, not to stand as some sort of measure against which the artist's own laya will stand or fail; he will accommodate changes in tempo, he will accommodate mistakes in the tala

vijay
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Post by vijay »

Most instrumentalists manage to keep time using their feet...you can even see artistes like TMK and Vijay Siva using their feet to keep the taalam at times. With adequate practise it is quite comfortable to use your feet to keep time...it is even possible to do it mentally if your rhythm sense is sharp enough...

It is not unheard of for artistes to lose track of taala when they are in the middle of swara kalpana (in a kriti rendition of course this would not happen)...I have seen this happen to a couple of vocalists who are otherwise known for being strong in laya...this is just one of the many pitfalls that a complex art confronts you with! However this happens very rarely with senior artistes..

Nick's observation is right on the ball...a mrudanist needs to gauge the performer's abilities in laya and play accordingly. A good mrudangist will try and cover up the few slip ups that may occur despite his best efforts...However, over time if he feels certain artists are not upto the mark in laya, he can always avoid accompanying such artistes....or, more positively, he can help the artistes to improve their skill in laya...

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Accompanied a small girl (actually she was probably as old as the mridangist) once for a piece at a function. Afterwards she praised us (mridangam and morsing) saying, I kept on changing speed; you guys just stayed with me!

We both said, errr. yes, but that's our job!

Only when the 'artist' falters and stutters and looses rhythm altogether is it less embarrassing all round for the rhythm guys to just stop and wait until they get a grip.

Actually, there is a lot to be learnt from being on stage with small people who may be there because of mum and dad rather than their own ability or wishes!

I recall talking to my teacher about how is able to give tala assistance to an artist. Obvious is simply to give the tala with the left hand, but also marking the claps with an emphasised left-hand stroke on the mridangam.

I think there are artists who don't much consider the tala when performing swaras. Perhaps they regard it as raga with rhythm imposed. These people one will notice looking to the mridangist for guidance when they are approaching the end of each section, especially if they are going to finish with a korvais, and they must know where to begin it.

ganesh_mourthy
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007, 23:08

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

It is not that easy and it is not that tough. but it is always good to practice from day one. but it is going to be tough if you start it lately.

Let me explain for the violinists and flautist for instance.

it is a matter of how your program your brain to do that. when you are practicing.As you practice hours and hours you can succeed it greatly .

Let us start with simple ADI,

When you are playing sarali varisai. remember to tap your leg as you woudl do with your hand when you sing So remember to shake your leg at Sa,Pa and Ni.

When you do it for sometime your mind understands the time interval.

so as you progress to 2nd varisasi SRSRSRGM SRGMPDNS

you can see that you can malke to shake your foot at S r s r S r G m. Caps indicates where you shoudl shake.

You can do this for all the varisai. not a big task.

try this for the second speed also . keeping your taping speed the same.
So what happens here is that you woudl tap it SrsrsrgmSrgmPdns

This is the way you can learn adi talam. Itis like mnemonics. youshoudl first remember which are the notes that you shoudl tap . then gradually your legs would do it without your consioius .

Like wise you can do this for the otherthalas when playing alankarams.

but early start is good. instead of practicing it when you areinto kirthamnams or ragams already.

Nick H
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Post by Nick H »

Neraval, come to think of it, must require very good command of talam, and loosing it anywhere must be disastrous.

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Post by msakella »

Dear b/s-members, In general, only after attaining some age people think of doing such things but cannot think such things at their tender age as they do not have much ideas. There lies the importance of an efficient, experienced, dedicated and sincere teacher to properly guide us in right direction in which way Late Shri Parur Sundaram Iyer shaped his son, Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan as an inimitable Violinist. But, it is that difficult like a lady always expecting a very accommodative husband to marry with and ending with a failure. More over, as our brother-member ganesh_mourthy wrote training the limbs of your body properly, meticulously and regularly from the tender age matters much in getting such required results. amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 20 Mar 2008, 07:48, edited 1 time in total.

anandasangeetham
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Joined: 06 Feb 2008, 16:24

Post by anandasangeetham »

If I may add....

I have heard many Gurus insist on learning vocal music (in case of instrumentalists) compulsorily. This I understand is to get a clarity on the sahitya (so that it is easily portrayed on the instrument) and also to have a good grasp of the tala. Once this is mastered transferring it in to the instrument is not big deal ( I am a nobody but this is my opinion) subject to constant practice to master the intrument....That is why many instrumentalists are also good singers..(you can hear them sing for RT Pallavis) Secondly as far as the percussionists are concerned I have seen many practice the solkattus by mouthing the jathis and keeping the tala by hand. Once they have mastered it they practice it on the instrument....This way (after constant practice ) it forms part of their nature....There was another discussion somewhere here (not in this thread) on the correct learning age for music. The same logic applies here too...without going in to the nuances or the technicalities the young are taught just to copy the Guru and practice. Once they attain mastery then they go about dissecting technically. This way they do not let go of the mastery attained but they also research. If on the other hand if it researched before mastery ..IMHO both will be lost...

girish_a
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33

Post by girish_a »

Well, this thread seems to have fallen silent. I'm posting this to revive the discussion, and with the hope that it may yet draw the attention of someone who can teach us a practical solution to the problem being discussed herein.
Last edited by girish_a on 26 Apr 2008, 21:19, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Post by Nick H »

It seems to me that we have the answer.

Whether toes, nose or even ears are twitched to aid in counting, what really counts is internal.

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