The point about accompaniment is that it should be appropriate. If it is not appropriate, it is bad, regardless of any technical brilliance that might be present.
There are songs and moments where it is perfectly appropriate to play an extended thiermanum at the end --- and I have also been to a few concerts where the mridangist seems to treat the ending of every song as his turn to get in a two minute solo. Simply, this is bad, and should not be treated mercifully by audience or reviewers.
Even those of us who love mridangam must admit the faults too!
Walk out during Thani????
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mridhangam
- Posts: 976
- Joined: 04 Dec 2006, 13:56
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mridhangam
- Posts: 976
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KNV
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 28 Feb 2008, 19:50
Nice
Your comments are enjoyable. What have you got to say about playing for Thanam in RTP. I am totally against it as it limits the scope of the singer. Infact many singers curse the tradition at Navarathri Mandabam. Infact the biggest offender in this is the incomparable Palghat Mani Iyer who brought dignity to Mridangam playing in concerts & contributed a great deal to the success of Ariyakudi & Semmangudi.
Your comments are enjoyable. What have you got to say about playing for Thanam in RTP. I am totally against it as it limits the scope of the singer. Infact many singers curse the tradition at Navarathri Mandabam. Infact the biggest offender in this is the incomparable Palghat Mani Iyer who brought dignity to Mridangam playing in concerts & contributed a great deal to the success of Ariyakudi & Semmangudi.
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Svaapana
- Posts: 147
- Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 20:56
"Yet another sickening thing I find with the current crop of percussionists is their playing virtualy a noisy mini tani after every song. They can't end with the singer which requires anticipation."
Well said!
Mrudangam players should listen to the records of the past greats like PMI and PSP to understand what it means to anticipate and conclude (really split second) with the main artiste.
Rasikas (!) are at fault for these frequent walk outs. It is better to choose one concert with a determined mind to stay from the start to finish. This determination should be there if you are going to attend more than one concert in a day. If this is not possible do not go to the concert.
What a treat it was the other day to be at Trivandrum to attend the inaugural concert of Swathi mahotsavam. Not one walked during the tani (which was unusually long for 25 minutes). It was exemplary
Well said!
Mrudangam players should listen to the records of the past greats like PMI and PSP to understand what it means to anticipate and conclude (really split second) with the main artiste.
Rasikas (!) are at fault for these frequent walk outs. It is better to choose one concert with a determined mind to stay from the start to finish. This determination should be there if you are going to attend more than one concert in a day. If this is not possible do not go to the concert.
What a treat it was the other day to be at Trivandrum to attend the inaugural concert of Swathi mahotsavam. Not one walked during the tani (which was unusually long for 25 minutes). It was exemplary
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harimau
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
Every profession runs on certain economic bases. But primary among them is the willingness of the customer to buy a certain product at a certain price.
Some professions are exceptions to this rule. If one's life is in danger due to a serious illness, one does not bargain with the doctor on his fees. Similarly, facing a trial with the possibility of a death sentence or long prison term, one does not argue over the legal fees.
Unfortunately for musicians and fortunately for rasikas, this is not the case with music. It doesn't matter that musicians have a steep learning curve, long apprenticeship, struggle to establish a crowd of followers, etc. All of that applies to accountancy, medicine, law, etc., equally. So there is nothing sacrosanct that says music as a business -- and that is precisely what it is for performing musicians -- ought to be shown greater "respect" by the consuming public.
If I go to a doctor and he regularly overbooks patients which causes me to wait a wait time, I will soon find an equally competent doctor to take care of me. There is no reason why I should not then be offended by irritating behavior of musicians. In fact, any person with an ounce of self-respect won't put up with the crap that some senior music professionals dish out.
The first of these is the demand by the accompanists that the volume for the violin/mridangam/kanjira ought to be turned up. The audience will ask for increased volume if they find any instrument is low. In fact, in several concerts, I have witnessed the audience requesting increased volume for the violin or adjustments to the overall balance. Until then, the accompanists must assume that the audience is enjoying a pleasant listening experience and not start on their ego trips.
The worst offenders in terms of banging on the mridangam are Trichy Sankaran, Srimushnam Raja Rao, Tiruvarur Bhakthavathsalam and more recently Guruvayur Dorai. Compare them to Umayalpuram Sri Sivaraman or Vellore Ramabhadran who are model accompanying artists -- despite having earned the coveted Sangeetha Kalanidhi title. One could do a a psychological analysis of what compels them to beat their drums so loudly but I shall leave that to a psychiatrist.
Looking at the junior to mid-range mridangam vidwans, do you see any one of them pulling this kind of nonsense on the organizers or the audience? Do they demand loud volumes? Do they play on and on and on during the Tani Avarthanam? No, it doesn't happen. That is because they realize thay they depend on the goodwill of the organizers to get the next concert opportunity so they are a model of restraint. It is only when one achieves a modicum of success that you get bizarre behavior from these people.
So, I exercise my rights as a buyer of music as a service. If I don't like the service provider, I walk out. If it happens to be during the Tani, perhaps it sends them a signal I don't like what I hear. I do not expect the mridangam vidwans to modify their behavior because I walk out. In fact, I expect to be called a person with no "gnanam" and what a loss I have suffered by not listening to their wonderful Tani. My only response to that is that at least what I lost is not my hearing.
I don't walk out during all the Tanis. I walk out on those who offend me with their behavior. Even better, I don't attend their concerts at all if possible. In the list of mridangists, during this season, I have successfully avoided two out of four. With any luck, my score will improve in coming years.
If I can figure out how to avoid the violin alapana, I will do that too. With someone like Akkarai Subbulakshmi, it should not be a problem at all. Her alapanas will be at least as long as the vocalist's which will give me ample time to grab a cup of coffee at the canteen.
By the way, you are welcome to jump on me for saying that music is a profession. If you think that the current crop of musicians are doing "Nadopasana" (Worship through Music), I know I can sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
PS to Nick. I am very courteous to my fellow members of the audience and do my utmost not to step on anyone's toes so you will not have to kick my shins. I expect good behavior from others; I usually am on good behavior. However, 12 years of teaching by Jesuit nuns and priests on courtesy have finally been overcome by louts who will not know manners if it bit them on their ankles.
Some professions are exceptions to this rule. If one's life is in danger due to a serious illness, one does not bargain with the doctor on his fees. Similarly, facing a trial with the possibility of a death sentence or long prison term, one does not argue over the legal fees.
Unfortunately for musicians and fortunately for rasikas, this is not the case with music. It doesn't matter that musicians have a steep learning curve, long apprenticeship, struggle to establish a crowd of followers, etc. All of that applies to accountancy, medicine, law, etc., equally. So there is nothing sacrosanct that says music as a business -- and that is precisely what it is for performing musicians -- ought to be shown greater "respect" by the consuming public.
If I go to a doctor and he regularly overbooks patients which causes me to wait a wait time, I will soon find an equally competent doctor to take care of me. There is no reason why I should not then be offended by irritating behavior of musicians. In fact, any person with an ounce of self-respect won't put up with the crap that some senior music professionals dish out.
The first of these is the demand by the accompanists that the volume for the violin/mridangam/kanjira ought to be turned up. The audience will ask for increased volume if they find any instrument is low. In fact, in several concerts, I have witnessed the audience requesting increased volume for the violin or adjustments to the overall balance. Until then, the accompanists must assume that the audience is enjoying a pleasant listening experience and not start on their ego trips.
The worst offenders in terms of banging on the mridangam are Trichy Sankaran, Srimushnam Raja Rao, Tiruvarur Bhakthavathsalam and more recently Guruvayur Dorai. Compare them to Umayalpuram Sri Sivaraman or Vellore Ramabhadran who are model accompanying artists -- despite having earned the coveted Sangeetha Kalanidhi title. One could do a a psychological analysis of what compels them to beat their drums so loudly but I shall leave that to a psychiatrist.
Looking at the junior to mid-range mridangam vidwans, do you see any one of them pulling this kind of nonsense on the organizers or the audience? Do they demand loud volumes? Do they play on and on and on during the Tani Avarthanam? No, it doesn't happen. That is because they realize thay they depend on the goodwill of the organizers to get the next concert opportunity so they are a model of restraint. It is only when one achieves a modicum of success that you get bizarre behavior from these people.
So, I exercise my rights as a buyer of music as a service. If I don't like the service provider, I walk out. If it happens to be during the Tani, perhaps it sends them a signal I don't like what I hear. I do not expect the mridangam vidwans to modify their behavior because I walk out. In fact, I expect to be called a person with no "gnanam" and what a loss I have suffered by not listening to their wonderful Tani. My only response to that is that at least what I lost is not my hearing.
I don't walk out during all the Tanis. I walk out on those who offend me with their behavior. Even better, I don't attend their concerts at all if possible. In the list of mridangists, during this season, I have successfully avoided two out of four. With any luck, my score will improve in coming years.
If I can figure out how to avoid the violin alapana, I will do that too. With someone like Akkarai Subbulakshmi, it should not be a problem at all. Her alapanas will be at least as long as the vocalist's which will give me ample time to grab a cup of coffee at the canteen.
By the way, you are welcome to jump on me for saying that music is a profession. If you think that the current crop of musicians are doing "Nadopasana" (Worship through Music), I know I can sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.
PS to Nick. I am very courteous to my fellow members of the audience and do my utmost not to step on anyone's toes so you will not have to kick my shins. I expect good behavior from others; I usually am on good behavior. However, 12 years of teaching by Jesuit nuns and priests on courtesy have finally been overcome by louts who will not know manners if it bit them on their ankles.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Not always nice! I've just, in the on-line world, kicked Harimau's ankles!KNV wrote:Nice
Your comments are enjoyable. What have you got to say about playing for Thanam in RTP. I am totally against it as it limits the scope of the singer.
To the question... You won't be surprised to hear that I disagree. I expect there to be a short thani as part of the RTP, even if it is little more than mohara and korvai. RTP is such a meeting of calculation, intellectual exercise and musical creativity, that it seems to be the ideal place for the mridangist to show how he can contribute his maths-made-music to that. I don't see that it limits the scope of the singer, except of course in terms of a few minutes less.
Harimau, I'm glad to know that you will try not to step on my feet. I hated the idea of having to wear boots, rather than soft sandals, in this climate.
Essentially, I do agree with you that the music exists in a market place, and that one either buys or one does not buy. I do think that performers deserve respect, as does the music itself, but I would never use that word, sacrosanct, although many have exactly that feeling.
I really disagree with much of your other comments (I sometimes find the violinist's turn at alapana to be a welcome relief! I resent vocalists who do not give sufficient time to their accompanists) but that is just a matter of personal difference. In a fruit cake, I like the raisins, and don't care for too many cherries. On a pizza I don't like too much olive. Personal tastes...
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Nick, I think KNV was referring to mridangam playing during the tAnam part of RTP - as is done at Navarathri mandapam. Not about the tani avartanam played during RTP.nick H wrote:To the question... You won't be surprised to hear that I disagree. I expect there to be a short thani as part of the RTP, even if it is little more than mohara and korvai. RTP is such a meeting of calculation, intellectual exercise and musical creativity, that it seems to be the ideal place for the mridangist to show how he can contribute his maths-made-music to that. I don't see that it limits the scope of the singer, except of course in terms of a few minutes less.KNV wrote:Your comments are enjoyable. What have you got to say about playing for Thanam in RTP. I am totally against it as it limits the scope of the singer.
To KNV: I am not sure the practice constrains the scope of tAnam. Besides, the mridangam is played very lightly for the tAnam, you almost can't hear it.
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Btw, talking about walking out during Thani...
Several rasikas walk out soon after the 'main' piece of the concert, just before the tukkadas start.
Is this considered bad manners too, and should everyone sit still until mangalam is completed?
Especially if they have sit through several abhangs, chinnanchiru kiliye, krishna nee begane, etc etc ?
Several rasikas walk out soon after the 'main' piece of the concert, just before the tukkadas start.
Is this considered bad manners too, and should everyone sit still until mangalam is completed?
Especially if they have sit through several abhangs, chinnanchiru kiliye, krishna nee begane, etc etc ?
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Sorry... miss-read that completely.
I do not like mridangam accompaniment to thanam!
I don't even like it being sung to talam, although there are probably many occasions where talam might be observed to be there anyway, to a more experienced ear. I do find that it gives a constricted feeling, yes.
Once, I enjoyed morsing accompaniment to violin-solo thanam; I can say that it worked for that concert. On the whole I'd rather the rhythm section stayed quiet through it.
I don't think a mridangist would ever do it uninvited. I've noticed TVG likes the mridangam to play, but when I've seen it, the request to the mridangist has always been obvious.
ragam-talam... yes, I feel that the audience should stay put until the end of mangalam, and that final appreciation of the artists.
I don't discount the possibility though, of artists sometimes outstaying their welcome.
Was it Ravi Shankar who told the story of not wanting to stop performing while there was yet even one member of the audience left listening --- turned out that audience member was waiting to take his carpet home.
I do not like mridangam accompaniment to thanam!
I don't even like it being sung to talam, although there are probably many occasions where talam might be observed to be there anyway, to a more experienced ear. I do find that it gives a constricted feeling, yes.
Once, I enjoyed morsing accompaniment to violin-solo thanam; I can say that it worked for that concert. On the whole I'd rather the rhythm section stayed quiet through it.
I don't think a mridangist would ever do it uninvited. I've noticed TVG likes the mridangam to play, but when I've seen it, the request to the mridangist has always been obvious.
ragam-talam... yes, I feel that the audience should stay put until the end of mangalam, and that final appreciation of the artists.
I don't discount the possibility though, of artists sometimes outstaying their welcome.
Was it Ravi Shankar who told the story of not wanting to stop performing while there was yet even one member of the audience left listening --- turned out that audience member was waiting to take his carpet home.
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iamkirinlemon
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 21:09
KNV, I agreed w/ your previous post overall, just not your characterization of the current mridangam scene. And I also disagree with your statement about thanam. Proper mridangam accompaniment for thanam sounds very pleasant and does not affect the singer, if (s)he is competent. Recently I saw the Trichur Brothers sing RTP with Arunprakash accompanying. During thanam, they asked for mridangam and Arunprakash said "not yet". He waited for the third turn of thanam at higher S, and then joined - very effective. Of course, this delayed start is a standard 'trick' that I have seen employed by other mridangists, but its aesthetic impact cannot be denied.KNV wrote:iamkirinlemon
The issue is not Patri or Anand or Arun. First we must recognise the huge role played by competent sidemen in a concert. The young talents must be nurtured by making them accompany the best. See the fate of the generation after Raghu & Sivaraman. Easwaran,Prasad, Narendran to name a few are all very competent. But they faded. They got a raw deal. They become AIR artists. They are no more interested in begging all & sundry for concerts. They get paid poorly when they accompany even seniors like TNS or TVS. They are A grade artists in AIR. Take Music reviews. They get hardly any coverage. If you listen to Raghu or Sivaraman or Sankaran you will see how much they contribute to embellishing a song. They way they fill the gaps in songs (listen to them accompanying for big compositions like Balagopala or Sri Rajagopala etc), the way they maintain the Kalapramanam (tempo), their playing for end pieces ( I don't like to use the word tukkadas), their anticipation etc. The main artist gave them the freedom to exhibit their skills. Yet another sickening thing I find with the current crop of percussionists is their palying virtualy a noisy mini tani after every song. They can't end with the singer which requires anticipation. There is a beauty in ending with a tuneful thirmanam along with the singer. Lastly this year I saw two leading percussionists in MA playing for tanam. This practic is there only in Navaratri Mandabam. This is a huge problem for the singer. It curbs thier scope in Tanam singing. I wish this practice is not encouraged by the singer.
I am finding it difficult to reconcile the views of those who want accompanists to be more restrained in their playing, with those who don't think accompanists get treated with respect. There is beauty in ending w/ restraint with the singer, just as there is beauty in taking the lead and playing a more elaborate theermanam for a song. Which do you think gets the accompanist more notice and respect from the mass audience? Also, note that if you are always restrained and reactive, you are not challenging the other artists on stage. But if you take the forefront, you should do it well. It's a tricky balance. I agree that sabhas should schedule more concerts that are top-tier across the board.
Last edited by iamkirinlemon on 10 Jan 2009, 04:04, edited 1 time in total.
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harimau
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
Didn't I say in my original post that courtesy begets courtesy? I keep that maxim in mind and try to be nice to folks, not talk during the concerts, not hum along, have the cell phone turned off, etc. In short, I am your model rasika who has been turned off by the prima donna-ish behavior of certain artists and is not willing to put up with it anymore.nick H wrote:
Harimau, I'm glad to know that you will try not to step on my feet. I hated the idea of having to wear boots, rather than soft sandals, in this climate.
I walk out on Tanis if I can do that without any disruption; otherwise I suffer in silence. But I have decided against attending concerts merely because certain accompanists have consistently exhibited abominable behavior. I lose out on some of my favorite artists' concerts that way but that is the way the cookie crumbles!nick H wrote:
Essentially, I do agree with you that the music exists in a market place, and that one either buys or one does not buy. I do think that performers deserve respect, as does the music itself, but I would never use that word, sacrosanct, although many have exactly that feeling.
Look at T M Krishna's concert at the Music Academy. For a very nice Bhairavi alapana lasting about 15+ minutes, Sriram Kumar on the violin gave an excellent reply that lasted about 10 minutes. Incidentally, that agrees with T M Krishna's comment that the violin reply should not exceed 60% of the vocalist's alapana. Same ratio existed in Tanam too. Akkarai Subbulakshmi in particular seems to be of the opinion that she is the main artist and that the vocalist is there merely to provide a framework to her own violin performance.nick H wrote:
I really disagree with much of your other comments (I sometimes find the violinist's turn at alapana to be a welcome relief! I resent vocalists who do not give sufficient time to their accompanists) but that is just a matter of personal difference. In a fruit cake, I like the raisins, and don't care for too many cherries. On a pizza I don't like too much olive. Personal tastes...
Green olives or black? I hate green olives but black olives are, in my opinion, delicious on pizza. In a remore corner of the earth (Corning, California, to be precise, where they grow a lot of olives), I once had a delicious pizza with only black olives for a topping. Some people have a reaction to the lye used in processing olives but fortunately I don't have that problem.
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arasi
- Posts: 16805
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Harimau,
I agree with you on several points you raise in your well thought-out, well-argued post. I recognize that businesss-mindedness is very much a reality in CM, but I have the choice to keep away from performances in which I do not find what I intend to derive from a CM concert--involvement of the artistes with the music they produce (not as a 'product'!) and their being able to communicate their experience to the audience.
I am with you on the 'noisy' mrudangists too. Like you, I have started avoiding those, even if they are experts and were once my favorites. Yes, like crass commercialism, noise is another menace. Easy on the ear playing, may it be UKS, Ramabhadran, Ramadas, or among the young, Arunprakash--is what I am looking for in a concert. Such mrudangists do not take over the concert, and are intent upon splitting our ear drums.
Yes, some accompanists begin gesturing for 'more!' to the sound man and carry it well through the first quarter of the concrt. The violinists do not do as much damage as mrudangists. In a concert, one of our forumites, with cotton wool in his hand said, 'with this sound (?) system, I had to send my driver to bring me this from home, pronto'. While I am getting half deaf with age, I dread this rock concert level of noise some of our mrudangists thirst for. Yes, even one of my favorites, Guruvayur is changing (is he getting deaf with age too?).
But for a couple of violinists, I do not avoid a concert because of who accompanies the vocalist. The khanjira does not offend when it comes to noise, and I love the instrument. Those who play excessively put me off too. Not when the vocalist asks for more, of course.
Yes, tastes differ, and I love black olives on my pizza too, and the noisy nandis are like salt soaked capers on a pizza for me
I agree with you on several points you raise in your well thought-out, well-argued post. I recognize that businesss-mindedness is very much a reality in CM, but I have the choice to keep away from performances in which I do not find what I intend to derive from a CM concert--involvement of the artistes with the music they produce (not as a 'product'!) and their being able to communicate their experience to the audience.
I am with you on the 'noisy' mrudangists too. Like you, I have started avoiding those, even if they are experts and were once my favorites. Yes, like crass commercialism, noise is another menace. Easy on the ear playing, may it be UKS, Ramabhadran, Ramadas, or among the young, Arunprakash--is what I am looking for in a concert. Such mrudangists do not take over the concert, and are intent upon splitting our ear drums.
Yes, some accompanists begin gesturing for 'more!' to the sound man and carry it well through the first quarter of the concrt. The violinists do not do as much damage as mrudangists. In a concert, one of our forumites, with cotton wool in his hand said, 'with this sound (?) system, I had to send my driver to bring me this from home, pronto'. While I am getting half deaf with age, I dread this rock concert level of noise some of our mrudangists thirst for. Yes, even one of my favorites, Guruvayur is changing (is he getting deaf with age too?).
But for a couple of violinists, I do not avoid a concert because of who accompanies the vocalist. The khanjira does not offend when it comes to noise, and I love the instrument. Those who play excessively put me off too. Not when the vocalist asks for more, of course.
Yes, tastes differ, and I love black olives on my pizza too, and the noisy nandis are like salt soaked capers on a pizza for me
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KNV
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 28 Feb 2008, 19:50
harimau
I agree banging the Mridangam is bad. But as they say in Tamil "Kuzhanthai vayiil Muthamiduvadupol vasipaathu" (kising a baby like) is no good. I feel Sivaraman maintains the right volume. This applies to Violin also (harsh bowing vs TNK bowing). Singer too ("Aiyyo" in top octave shouting) . Kural Kodapathu (Voice modulation) is something that comes from the kind of music one listens to frequently. Many in Kerala give their voice like Yesudas. In Andhra like Balamurali. GNB fans try to emulate his nasal tone & brigas. I bad imitators Semamngudi & MDR. Infact many imbibe the satge mannerisms of their Role models or Gurus. So what one hears & sees becomes their style!
Nick
I agree with you that Mridangam palayer should play a short Tani after the Pallavi. I guess not many may be willing!
iamkirinlemon
Listen to Tanam singing with & without Mridangam of old timers. You will appreciate the difference.
I agree banging the Mridangam is bad. But as they say in Tamil "Kuzhanthai vayiil Muthamiduvadupol vasipaathu" (kising a baby like) is no good. I feel Sivaraman maintains the right volume. This applies to Violin also (harsh bowing vs TNK bowing). Singer too ("Aiyyo" in top octave shouting) . Kural Kodapathu (Voice modulation) is something that comes from the kind of music one listens to frequently. Many in Kerala give their voice like Yesudas. In Andhra like Balamurali. GNB fans try to emulate his nasal tone & brigas. I bad imitators Semamngudi & MDR. Infact many imbibe the satge mannerisms of their Role models or Gurus. So what one hears & sees becomes their style!
Nick
I agree with you that Mridangam palayer should play a short Tani after the Pallavi. I guess not many may be willing!
iamkirinlemon
Listen to Tanam singing with & without Mridangam of old timers. You will appreciate the difference.
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iamkirinlemon
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 21:09
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
The mridangam, even in the hands of those whose finger muscles have decades of practice, is really not very loud! Of course, there are those who are more vigorous than others, but, if it deafens us, then my belief is that it is usually the sound engineer/system that is to blame.
When we see a musician asking for the sound level of his instrument to be increased, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that ego is the cause. Sometimes it may be; ego is something that no performer can be entirely free of, but I think that, more often, it is ---
--- because they themselves cannot hear what they are playing,
--- because, from the little they can hear of the speakers directed towards the audience, they sincerely believe that the balance is not right.
I have seen mridangists ask for the main artist level to be increased, and also for the violin level to be increased, just as often as I have seen them ask for their own level to be raised.
Just as we have visited the thani-walkout and concert-behaviour issues many times, we have visited the sound-system subject regularly too. It is an issue that can only be solved by having properly-experienced and qualified engineers, properly placed in the hall to hear what the audience is hearing, and prepared to apply all requests from the stage to the stage monitors only. I sometimes wonder if some of our senior musicians ever attend other concerts: their ignorance on these issues seems boundless.
Consider the ego proportions of big-name Western classical performers. Do they wave at the sound man for their levels to be increased? One big difference is that they were trained to fill a hall with their un-amplified voices anyway, which is sadly lacking in this part of the world where microphones are expected even for chamber concerts --- but chiefly, they work in a professional environment and leave the sound man to get on with his job, knowing full well that what they hear on stage is not what the audience is hearing.
When we see a musician asking for the sound level of his instrument to be increased, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that ego is the cause. Sometimes it may be; ego is something that no performer can be entirely free of, but I think that, more often, it is ---
--- because they themselves cannot hear what they are playing,
--- because, from the little they can hear of the speakers directed towards the audience, they sincerely believe that the balance is not right.
I have seen mridangists ask for the main artist level to be increased, and also for the violin level to be increased, just as often as I have seen them ask for their own level to be raised.
Just as we have visited the thani-walkout and concert-behaviour issues many times, we have visited the sound-system subject regularly too. It is an issue that can only be solved by having properly-experienced and qualified engineers, properly placed in the hall to hear what the audience is hearing, and prepared to apply all requests from the stage to the stage monitors only. I sometimes wonder if some of our senior musicians ever attend other concerts: their ignorance on these issues seems boundless.
Consider the ego proportions of big-name Western classical performers. Do they wave at the sound man for their levels to be increased? One big difference is that they were trained to fill a hall with their un-amplified voices anyway, which is sadly lacking in this part of the world where microphones are expected even for chamber concerts --- but chiefly, they work in a professional environment and leave the sound man to get on with his job, knowing full well that what they hear on stage is not what the audience is hearing.
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Suji Ram
- Posts: 1529
- Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 00:04
There is an adv. for a device which I have seen recently with which you can watch TV without disturbing others or hear what your neighbours are whispering..nick H wrote: --- because they themselves cannot hear what they are playing,
--- because, from the little they can hear of the speakers directed towards the audience, they sincerely believe that the balance is not right.
May be such a device would help those on stage without having to blow our eardrums.
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harimau
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
Why blame the sound technician when the culprit is the musician on stage demanding that the volume be raised?
A recent concert of T M Krishna at P S High School for Ramana Kendra had such high levels of volume that after the first song or so, there were enough protests by the audience. The organizer had to ask if the volume was too loud and, when the answer was yes, had it reduced a teeny bit. Sitting in the middle in the 9th row, I couldn't walk out of the program itself, let alone during the Tani.
Contrast that with the R K Srikantan concert two days back in Sastri Hall. Sitting directly in front of the mridangam artist (Umayalpuram Sivaraman), in the second row, I felt no discomfort with the sound levels.
Remember that Sastri Hall is a closed auditorium and P S High School has an open one.
Nope, don't blame the sound technician!
A recent concert of T M Krishna at P S High School for Ramana Kendra had such high levels of volume that after the first song or so, there were enough protests by the audience. The organizer had to ask if the volume was too loud and, when the answer was yes, had it reduced a teeny bit. Sitting in the middle in the 9th row, I couldn't walk out of the program itself, let alone during the Tani.
Contrast that with the R K Srikantan concert two days back in Sastri Hall. Sitting directly in front of the mridangam artist (Umayalpuram Sivaraman), in the second row, I felt no discomfort with the sound levels.
Remember that Sastri Hall is a closed auditorium and P S High School has an open one.
Nope, don't blame the sound technician!
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arasi
- Posts: 16805
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
bilahari,
Before going into that, we need a clear definition of the term 'feed back'. Artistes mention it, there IS such a term, but in what sense is it used by technicians and performers? How does this vary from auditorium to auditorium, one sound system to the other, country to country? I have heard artistes exclaim ' I have no feed back!'. I vaguely remember this being discussed a while ago.
Once it is established that they are all thinking about sound in the same way, communicating their needs in a manner understood by the sound men might improve things. After all, this is in the interest of all.
Before going into that, we need a clear definition of the term 'feed back'. Artistes mention it, there IS such a term, but in what sense is it used by technicians and performers? How does this vary from auditorium to auditorium, one sound system to the other, country to country? I have heard artistes exclaim ' I have no feed back!'. I vaguely remember this being discussed a while ago.
Once it is established that they are all thinking about sound in the same way, communicating their needs in a manner understood by the sound men might improve things. After all, this is in the interest of all.
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cameo
- Posts: 118
- Joined: 26 Aug 2008, 16:01
a lil fun:
just before the starting of a concert by Dr.KJY recently,
one of the samajam president/pm ,whomsoever ,took the mike and announced.. "ladies and gentlemen.. please dont MOVE once the concert starts.It might cause a disturbance to Shri KJY. So please sit idle"
and the next was KJY over the mike... "Dont listen to the president.. hello samajam president,how can people sit for 3-4 hours without moving a bit...."
ignore....!!!
just before the starting of a concert by Dr.KJY recently,
one of the samajam president/pm ,whomsoever ,took the mike and announced.. "ladies and gentlemen.. please dont MOVE once the concert starts.It might cause a disturbance to Shri KJY. So please sit idle"
and the next was KJY over the mike... "Dont listen to the president.. hello samajam president,how can people sit for 3-4 hours without moving a bit...."
ignore....!!!
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Because if the right equipment was available and he had done his job properly, the musician on stage would not need to ask, demand, or whatever.harimau wrote:Why blame the sound technician when the culprit is the musician on stage demanding that the volume be raised?
Because the organisers and the sound technician are in charge of the sound system, not the musicians. This, I grant you, is something that not many musicians realise!
I have this complaint against musicians: some of them have spent decades sitting in front of a microphone, and yet they fail completely to understand the basics of using it, and some even badly misuse it.
Musicians are far from perfect in this respect, whether it be vocalist or mridangist. The rest of the crew on stage, even the violinist, seem often to be a little to meek to say anything.
It is indeed, often the case, that the musicians can not hear themselves, and/or cannot hear each other. Why stages have this black-hole effect on sound I really don't know; I'm sure an expert on acoustics could explain, but I probably wouldn't understand as it quickly becomes a rather mathematical subject.bilahari wrote:Out of curiosity, why is it that so many musicians ask to have the volume raised? Is it because they cannot hear themselves on stage? If so, why not?
I have long suspected that the dias is habitually set far too far back on the stage. I would dispense with the curtains, and bring the musicians right to the edge of the stage. Of course, there are many halls that do not have a prescenium arch stage (invented by the Greeks, a couple of millenia before anyone thought of the amplifier, I think?) so it is just part of my theories,and cannot be the whole story.
Arasi: 'feedbak' in that context is monitor speakers, placed so each musician can hear themselves and their colleagues. It varied from concert to concert, and when ill-used can result in the screaming 'feedback' (same word, different context) caused by sound looping from mic to speaker to mic.
There is a whole art and science to sound engineering. Just as we non-musician audience benefit from learning even a little about music, I think we benefit also from knowing a little of the technology of the stage, even if only to better direct our criticism. It is worth a little research.
Cameo: Poor Mr President, who was trying to do his bit for audience behaviour, but nice to hear that KJY took a more practical and humble view
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
Perhaps it would help if musicians provided clear instructions to the organizers, as TMK does below:
http://www.tmkrishna.com/images/stage-requirement.jpg
http://www.tmkrishna.com/images/stage-requirement.jpg
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ragam-talam
- Posts: 1896
- Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
The monitor speakers are usually taken from a separate output on the mixing board, and I guess that, in that case, the signals pass through a different amplifier.
The monitor output from the board, though, unless the equipment is very expensive, has much less control and adjustment compared to the main speakers. I do recall one event, where I was involved, where the violinist was upset that that more treble could not be given on the monitor. He did not understand that, whereas the tonal graduation to the house speakers could be adjusted for at least three ranges, the monitor output was very restricted.
The monitor output from the board, though, unless the equipment is very expensive, has much less control and adjustment compared to the main speakers. I do recall one event, where I was involved, where the violinist was upset that that more treble could not be given on the monitor. He did not understand that, whereas the tonal graduation to the house speakers could be adjusted for at least three ranges, the monitor output was very restricted.
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mahesu
- Posts: 63
- Joined: 09 Dec 2008, 19:43
I agree with Nick......it is the inexperienced sound engineers with less gnyanam of a concert balance creating this trouble. Actually it is a vicious circle. There are two types of mridangam artist who play mridangam strongly - A tala oriented mridangist who continuously beats the mridangam , the other who is music oriented and knows when to play strong and when to keep silence. Unfortunately this gnyana is not available to many especially the sound engineers. Frightened by the constant beaters, they reduce volume for the artists who play with gnyana also. These second type of artists, when left with low volume, become less effective due to the style of their playing. This creates an impression that the constant beater is a better artist than the gnyana based one. So nowadays these artists start asking for more volume. The common rasika who cannot differenciate between these two, blames whoever asks for more volume. Requesting our friends to first differenciate between these two types of artists and then the see the reason behind, for asking more volume.
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harimau
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43
When you want to compare equipment (speakers, amplifiers, etc.) you do an A-B test. In the case of speakers, one pair of stereo speakers would be connected to Switch A and the second pair to be compared the first pair would be connected to Switch B. All other equipment including the music CD (or LP) to be played would remain the same so you can compare the speakers by switching from pair A to pair B.
A very similar A-B test happened at PS High School. Suryaprakash was performing for the Raga Tarangini Foundation on Jan 21. The mridangist was Srimushnam Raja Rao, another mridangist known for demanding loud volume for the mridangam (and listed by me as one of those whom I would want to shun). The amplifier, the mixer and the sound technician were the same as for the T M Krishna concert at the same venue on Jan 13. Presumably the mics were the same too.
I was seated in the same 9th row except that I was about 5 seats to the right compared to my seat in the T M Krishna concert.
Thus, one would have to agree that almost all variables were constrained to remain the same with the exception of the performers on the stage.
While the overall volume of the concert was a tad higher than my liking, it was not painfully loud the way it was with the T M Krishna concert. Nor did Raja Rao continually ask for increased volume for the mridangam. In fact, the only person who asked for better feedback was Suryaprakash after about three items or so had been rendered.
After that experience, can any of you guys still absolve the performers of guilt for the overall loudness and blame it on the audio technician?
A very similar A-B test happened at PS High School. Suryaprakash was performing for the Raga Tarangini Foundation on Jan 21. The mridangist was Srimushnam Raja Rao, another mridangist known for demanding loud volume for the mridangam (and listed by me as one of those whom I would want to shun). The amplifier, the mixer and the sound technician were the same as for the T M Krishna concert at the same venue on Jan 13. Presumably the mics were the same too.
I was seated in the same 9th row except that I was about 5 seats to the right compared to my seat in the T M Krishna concert.
Thus, one would have to agree that almost all variables were constrained to remain the same with the exception of the performers on the stage.
While the overall volume of the concert was a tad higher than my liking, it was not painfully loud the way it was with the T M Krishna concert. Nor did Raja Rao continually ask for increased volume for the mridangam. In fact, the only person who asked for better feedback was Suryaprakash after about three items or so had been rendered.
After that experience, can any of you guys still absolve the performers of guilt for the overall loudness and blame it on the audio technician?
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arasi
- Posts: 16805
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Harimau,
Thanks for making me feel better. The sound charade is always distracting and is a devil to figure out. I can say this without any hesitation that while some 'donno what it is, this switch board and stuff' men tamper with our listening, some on the performing stage do this too. I can say that in the recent years, but for the tambUra man, many performers tend to gesture or ask for 'more', and it can go on, their taking turns to distract us well into the first few songs. A stupid question perhaps, but is it at all possible to set the volume to a reasonable level on mikes and no more? Mrudanga vidvAns bother me most. Even the best among them seem to have fallen victim to this habit.
Thanks for making me feel better. The sound charade is always distracting and is a devil to figure out. I can say this without any hesitation that while some 'donno what it is, this switch board and stuff' men tamper with our listening, some on the performing stage do this too. I can say that in the recent years, but for the tambUra man, many performers tend to gesture or ask for 'more', and it can go on, their taking turns to distract us well into the first few songs. A stupid question perhaps, but is it at all possible to set the volume to a reasonable level on mikes and no more? Mrudanga vidvAns bother me most. Even the best among them seem to have fallen victim to this habit.
Last edited by arasi on 25 Jan 2009, 09:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
Very good points, very well made, and I take your point.harimau wrote:... ... ...After that experience, can any of you guys still absolve the performers of guilt for the overall loudness and blame it on the audio technician?
There have been some very good posts from some of the American event organisers, possibly even as far back as rec.music.indian.classical days, I do not know if they have been repeated on this forum.
In a nutshell, the major feature is that they do not allow the artists to interfere in the level settings: requests from the stage are applied to the stage monitors only. Front-of-house sound is judged from the front of the house, and never from the stage.
It is a can of worms, this whole sound-system business. I do not say that egos never come into play, but the difficulties from the musicians' standpoint have to be understood too.
Overall, and I'm sure that Harimau would join me in this... I have a conviction that the sound should be adjusted for the comfort and convenience of the audience above all. We are the ones that have paid to be there!
I still say that lack of professionalism on the part of the organisers and their sound team plays a major part, but this may well be because they are pandering to the performers when they should be looking after the audience.
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mahesu
- Posts: 63
- Joined: 09 Dec 2008, 19:43
Another suggestion would be to spend a 2 / 3 minute session before every concert for balancing. Once it is WELL balanced, the engineer neither voluntarily nor from requests, should be allowed to change the levels. This would help a lot, both the performer and the listener. I have seen stalwarts like Zakir hussain spending quite an effort for balancing.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
With reference to the concerts you have organised, I should say that the emphasis is on re-inforcement not on amplification. When listening to voice and acoustic instruments, wherever in the world, all the sound system should do is make us able to hear an instrument that might not otherwise fill the space: we should feel that we are listening directly to the voice/instrument. If it seems loud, or other than the fingers and voice could naturally produce, which is the unfortunate norm, then the system design, set-up and use has fundamentally failed. Your technicians seem to appreciate thiscoolkarni wrote:Fully agree with harimau.
With my limited experience I have recognised that I get into major volume setting decisions whenever I Stray away from Kannan Audio Systems, W Mambalam.
Such a fine bunch of technicians, they are.
This is exactly my point about those who might have performed for decades, but have no idea about a fundamental tool of their trade. The particular artist's style has to be taken account of, though, of course. A musician who wishes a lot of contact with his colleagues on either side should be facilitated, not restrained, by the system setup.There is another issue.Vocalists who are more dependent on the mike , have a problem if their face keeps moving away from the Mike tip , Sideways or even up and down.The uneven volume of Voice delivery makes it difficult for the sound technician to set the master level.
Less visually intrusive, and possibly more comfortable to the wearer, is the microphone clipped to the chest, as is seen (if not hidden under a layer of cloth) in many studio TV programs. This is what I would favour, and I have read that some of those foreign organisers I mentioned have used this --- but they find objections from artists, because the artists just don't feel right without a mic stand, they feel too exposed, and from others (the ones who think they can manipulate the microphone, the fiddlers, (oh dear)) that it robs them of their percieved ability to influence their own volume. Of course, that is the whole aim and point!A way around this is perhaps the use of the mike attached to the head (like the ear pieces, coming down the chin).
I recently saw this being employed in a Vasudha Keshav Concert.
Somehow felt this should solve most of the problems.
Goodness! One should take note and pop along to pick up some bargains in discarded kit! I have no idea what the expected life is. I would have thought that a good microphone should last forever, and that the same applies to speakers, and that technology in these areas has not markedly improved, so as to make upgrade desirable, for a long time. Hmmm... perhaps our humidity takes its toll on these items. Oh, and being tapped to see if they work is no good at all for microphones!BTW During the recent visit to Shanmukhanada Sabha , I learnt that they had "Retired" their Sound systems and installed a new one at the cost of 1.3 Crores.
When I asked what was wrong with the old system , they simply replied that they had found it necessary to retire a system every 7 years or so.And that a senior committe member is specifically responsible for this aspect alone.
Goes to show that decisions on these issues were accorded the highest importance.
As for the board: sliders fill with dust and wear. Anyone spending those sort of sums, though, should be well into the realms of digital, rather than physical, control systems.
For all the money they spend, what was your impression of the result?
Yes and no. It should certainly be done, and the effort should be put in, but another thing that artists (and sound men) seem not to understand is that the volumes produced during the sound check are not those that occur once they have warmed up and gained enthusiasm.mahesu wrote:Another suggestion would be to spend a 2 / 3 minute session before every concert for balancing. Once it is WELL balanced, the engineer neither voluntarily nor from requests, should be allowed to change the levels. This would help a lot, both the performer and the listener. I have seen stalwarts like Zakir hussain spending quite an effort for balancing.
Adjustments have to be made.
By the way... my hearing changes for the worst noticeably,and I am not that ancient yet: I wonder if I will be one of the ones clamouring for more amplification in a few years, and, where the audience can contain quite a number of elderly persons, I suspect that this may be a factor.
Last edited by Guest on 25 Jan 2009, 13:12, edited 1 time in total.
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ignoramus
- Posts: 197
- Joined: 21 Aug 2006, 21:25
Hi Nick
Putting up a clip of mridangam tani, and a small bit where there is support for the flute and violin swaraprasthara. Do you feel that there is a signiicant change in the volume while playing? i deliberately chose an instrumental concert . even if the clip does not lead to any great conclusion, maybe you would like the mridangam.
: http://rapidshare.de/files/43618550/Thani__1.mp3.html
Putting up a clip of mridangam tani, and a small bit where there is support for the flute and violin swaraprasthara. Do you feel that there is a signiicant change in the volume while playing? i deliberately chose an instrumental concert . even if the clip does not lead to any great conclusion, maybe you would like the mridangam.
: http://rapidshare.de/files/43618550/Thani__1.mp3.html
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I've been holding the solidarity banner alone for one thing or another for years!
Ignoramus, I am enjoying the thani! I'd say that it sounds like a recording made by a mridangam student, as the mridangam is so much to the fore. The poor violinist sounds as if they are playing from the next-door room!
A very enjoyable clip, but I'd hope to hear better balance in the concert hall, which to mind would be: flute is ok, violin much too low, and mridangam too loud. Clarity is nice though!
Ignoramus, I am enjoying the thani! I'd say that it sounds like a recording made by a mridangam student, as the mridangam is so much to the fore. The poor violinist sounds as if they are playing from the next-door room!
A very enjoyable clip, but I'd hope to hear better balance in the concert hall, which to mind would be: flute is ok, violin much too low, and mridangam too loud. Clarity is nice though!
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Nick H
- Posts: 9389
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I think the violin often gets a raw deal, volume-wise, in concerts.
I suspect that this recording was made by someone putting a single mike in the middle of the players. Flute is always loud, mridangam also. violin is much gentler. If recording with a singel mike, I find better to put it near the quieter player --- but these things are so variable.
I suspect that this recording was made by someone putting a single mike in the middle of the players. Flute is always loud, mridangam also. violin is much gentler. If recording with a singel mike, I find better to put it near the quieter player --- but these things are so variable.