Smt Manorama Prasad & Students - 31/01/2009, Liverpool

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 31 Jan 2009, 22:26

First live concert for me in yonks and when I heard it was Manorama Prasad I was looking forward to it. However it was a bit of a let down for me when for the first hour it was her students who sang. Here's what happened.

She started by saying, there will be two set of students singing a few compositions.

Part I

Out came 4 very young girls. All dressed in pattu pavadai's etc. Proud parents with camcorders in front of me. The girls were under 10 I think. The youngest and smallest one started the sloka Gajananam in Hamsadhwani. And then the other 3 joined in. Then came a suprise. They sang Vanajaksha - varnam in Behag. Nicely done. They finished off with Shobane a krithi by Thygaraja Swami.

Part II

Six girls slightly older than the previous ones, all dressed in saris. They were accompanied by Sri Shiva Ganesh on violin and Sri Bhavani Shankar on Mridangam. They started of with the Gayathri Manthra, a raga I could not identify, sounded somewhat a close raga to Revagupti. There was a 30 seconds alapana of Sri raga by the violinist. The girls then sang a part of the Melaragamalika magnum opus by Sri Ramasamy Sivan - Pranathathihara Prabho Murare. They sang the first 6 ragas. It was nice and a crisp rendetion. Next came a 20 second brilliant Kapi alapana by the violinist. I thought Enna Thavam as usual but it was a krithi called Govindam Bhaje which had "Vasudeva" mudra. Can anyone confirm that this is akrithi of Mysore vasudevacharya? The violinist played what I thought was Panthuvarali only to finish it off with Bahar in the end. The penny dropped. As expected, Maharajapuram's Thillnana on Kanchi Swami in Basant Bahar was rendered.

General observations - I am suprised by the song choices for students who were very young. However they did a nice job of it which Smt Manorama Prasad can be proud off. They got a wee bit awkward in the upper octaves, both groups. This lot took about an hour.

Part III - 45 minutes

Smt Manorama Prasad - Vocal
Sri Shiva Ganesh - Violin
Sri Bhavani Shankar - Mridangam

1. Ranjani Mala with a brief alapana of all 4 Ranjani's.
2. Sambo Mahadeva - Panthuvarali
Nice alapana, neraval @ Paramadaya. Ragamalika swaram in Karakarapriya [violin reply was excellent], Mohanam [outstanding and very pleasing], Kiravani, Hamsadhwani [again the singer and violinist excelled], Durga and Kalyanavasantham
3. Thani about 6 minutes from was very engaging
4. Thillana - Sindhu Bhairavi
5. Mangalam

Venue - The *magnificient* Concert Room in St George's Hall, Liverpool. Huge ceilings and beautiful decorations. Victorian building example at it's best. The sound system was not up to the mark, but that was explained by the organisers. This was the first Indian music concert in St George's Hall and the sound engineers weren't aware of the needs

But as he said, they now know and I am looking forward to the next one.

Overall I am happy bunny to have listened to some quality music live after a few years. I am off to watch the Manchester United v Everton game now

Thukadas

South Indian Mama one moaned about the quality of coffee during the interval in chaste Tamil. Very amusing. As R K Narayan once said "Don't ask a South Indian whether he wants white or black coffee ... for us it's always BROWN"

Few wayward tourist walked in and out. St George's Hall is huge and part of it is open as a tourist attraction. Which was very disconcerting. So did the girls who sang before, all dressed in jeans and high heals which made that annoying "tok tok" noise as they went in and out. Just proved my theory, these lot are just not interested. I expected all of them to be seated and listen with care to what their Guru was singing ... maybe that's too much to ask these days!!

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 01 Feb 2009, 03:05

MaheshS wrote: Sri Ramasamy Sivan - Pranathathihara Prabho Murare.

MaheshS - Thank you for the nice description.

One correction: The mELarAgamAlikA is by SrI mahAvaidhynAtha Sivan, SrI rAmasAmi sivan's brother. I think SrI rAmasAmi Sivan set music to it. Also the words go praNatArithara prabhO purArE. praNatArtiharan is tyAgEsan at tiruvArUr and purAri too is his name. murAri is SrIkRSNan. Thank you.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 01 Feb 2009, 21:16

Thanks for the correction, I thought the elder one composed and Maha added the chittaswaram.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 01 Feb 2009, 22:24

Has anyone heard the live rendition of the much publicised MS subhalakshmi's Pranathathihara Prabho Murare. I heard thru grapevine that she sang in academy in 2 consecutive days or did she sing in two sessions on the same day. I have the commercial CD of this masterpiece ,what a perfection and control over sahithyam , perhaps only ms amma Could do it.

Apart from ms amma has any one sung this song in concerts? . I have heard Gayathri girish once singing one set of chakras centered in kalyAni (61 to 66 ) in her one rAga one krithi series where she sang kalyAni as the main .Also IIRC , I have heard mostly the first set of chakras sung by other few musicians.

On a side note ,listening to this 72 mela rAgamAliga gives a tremendous insight of how suddha madhyama rAgas in general have more appeal and variety than prathi madhyama in general.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 01 Feb 2009, 22:28

praNatArthihara is Lord shiva at tiruvaiyARu and the goddess is 'dharmasamvardhani'- MSD's kriti in sAmantha 'praNtArthiharAya namastE'.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 01 Feb 2009, 22:36

Sanjay sometimes sings parts of this rAgamAlikA in concerts.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 02 Feb 2009, 00:21

Rajeshnat sir -

Live performances, when Sangeetha Kalanidhi Mudikondan Venkatarma Iyer did a lec-dem [second time] on Simhanandhana Pallavi with Lalgudi and Umayalpuram [1970's?? - Music Academy Sadas] he sang the same. I have got a copy of that recording. Amazing.

MSS is MSS. No one is even close

Her version of the composition is what I consider my bench mark. Apparently she was guided / taught [?] by SSI.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 02 Feb 2009, 02:40

rajeshnat wrote:Has anyone heard the live rendition of the much publicised MS subhalakshmi's Pranathathihara Prabho Murare.

Impeccable rendering. She also sang 2 chakrams each starting from the year 1968 through to 1974. 1973- No concert due to pujyaSrI rAjAji's death.
I think we have most of the "clips" of it in sangeethapriya. Again, its purArE and not murArE.

MaheshS wrote:Thanks for the correction, I thought the elder one composed and Maha added the chittaswaram.

I thought it was the other way round. I vaguely remember reading about it some where. May be I'm wrong.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Feb 2009, 03:37

Manorama Prasad --- the lady who pulled me off the Carnatic/Hindustani fence

Thank you for the concert description, Mahesh. It is nice to hear news of Siva Ganesh and Bhavani Shankar too.

Satvi · Post by **Satvi** » 04 Feb 2009, 16:15

Thank you, MaheshS for your detailed review of what we sang at Liverpool last Saturday.

I am one of the girls from 'Part II' and I would just like to defend myself and all my classmates on your submission that we are not interested in carnatic music.

Although we all would have loved to stay and watch the concert (and most of us did), I think you would appreciate that all of us, still being in school/college, have a few other commitments to see to such as our studies and hence a few of us were in a rush to catch the earliest train back to London...I think we wore appropriate attire (which did not include high heels) and were careful not to disturb Manorama Aunty's concert. The doorman would not have let us in even if we wanted to. In the past, at every opportunity, we have all travelled long distances just to watch our teacher perform and support her.

Hopefully, we will be seeing you at the Tarang performance which is directed by Manorama Aunty, this Saturday 7th Feb in Purcell Room, Southbank centre, London.

I think I speak for all the girls when I say we all feel extremely proud n privileged to be learning from such an accomplished teacher, many of us travelling from all around the country to get lessons from her. She knows that we are all extremely interested, and that is the only reason she fits us in her busy schedule. I don't really think you have any right to judge, let alone comment on our 'interest'. That is for our teacher to decide. It should be enough that you enjoyed the music. It is a sad state that people come to concerts not only to appreciate music but to judge performers!

However, thank you for your comments. I will pass them on to all who participated.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 04 Feb 2009, 18:52

Hey Satvi - You're welcome.

I do understand your points and if you are genuinely interested then more power to you!! I did not pass comment or any judgement. It was and is my very personal opinion and observations. Nothing more nothing less. I do understand that all of you have other commitments.

Please do not say no one walked out or in during the concert was going on. There was no doorman, there was the Milapfest organiser standing by the door, the chap with the turban. I think you were talking about the doorman [security] for the entire St George's Hall. Trust me, they don't prevent from anyone going out at all. They don't have the right. This is not the first time I have been to St George's Hall, though it was my first Carnatic one.

On the heels, OK, it was knee length boots [?] or some such footwear. I was sitting near the path to get to the side stand, it made the noise while your Guru was *singing*. And it annoyed the heck out of me.

Performers and performances *are* judged. If you get on that stage and people have come to listen then they WILL. Simple as that.

I wish you and your fellow performers all the very best. Regretfully I will have to take a rain [or snow] check on the Tarang performance in London. I got to earn a living

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Feb 2009, 20:16

Ha Ha! Mahesh... now you know that UK carnatic students have bite!

From my knowledge of Manorama, she has bite too (in the best possible sense) and would not put up with lack of interest from her students.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 04 Feb 2009, 21:14

Nick - This was more bark. And up the wrong tree as well

And yes, I do know Manorama Mam does not put up with certain things!!

madhurasmriti · Post by **madhurasmriti** » 05 Feb 2009, 18:13

Thank You Mahesh S for the constructive criticism, yet there are a few things I must take issue with. I was there at St. Georges Hall, where Smt. Manorama Prasad performed, I believe you do not understand the full story. The reason why the girls came in late and with certain frequency was due to an illness within the group. This resulted in a few students trying to take care of the aforementioned sick girl. Now, People have to go to study and have to go to work. Hence, A few students had to go back to London. This must not be mistaken as disrespect or lack of interest, but simply a way of keeping to prior commtiments and being dedicated to their work. I extend a warm invitation for you to come to the Tarang programme in Purcell Room, South Bank Centre, which, i think you will agree, is a lot closer than liverpool and plenty of Manorama Prasad's students will be there. If you are not working, please try to come to this programme, which may give you a better picture of the commitment of the students in the Carnatic Music sector. I hear the programme is almost sold out

Thank you for your comments, they were excellent and please continue to comment, but please understand the contextual argument before making snap judgements

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 05 Feb 2009, 22:27

Madhurasmriti -

Thank you very much for your very nice post and a very logical explanation. I do fully understand and appreciate when you say there were other things happening around, which I was not aware. I do apologise if it came harsh, that was not my intention. And just to re-iterate, my observations and opinions were just that. There were not intended to be malicious. I just posted what I felt and if you notice the "review" was posted very shortly after the concert concluded. I just poured my thoughts straight away and it was what I felt about that afternoon's performance and performers.

Unfortunately, I will have to miss the London Tarang program due to work constraints, however I will try my best to attend as many as I can in the future.

Can you [or Satvi] please clarify a one thing please? Name of the raga the Gayathri Manthram was set to.

Thanks and regards,

Mahesh

madhurasmriti · Post by **madhurasmriti** » 06 Feb 2009, 15:07

Mahesh,

The Gayatri Mantra was set to Vasanthi Raga
And also Govindam Bhajare Mana, was by Mysore Vasudevacharya

Regards

madhurasmriti

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Feb 2009, 16:38

Mahesh,
Enjoyed your review about the concert and thank you for adding the the ambience too. (I have lived in London many years ago and always relish stuff which brings back memories).
The one CM concert I have heard in England in the good old days was that unforgettable one by MSS (before she sang at the United Nations) at the Indian YMCA.
Power to Manorama and her students! May their tribe increase!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Feb 2009, 17:18

May they continue to contribute to this forum too!

London has such an active Carnatic music community; I'm sure it will broaden our forum if more of them take up membership here.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 06 Feb 2009, 20:10

Madhurasmriti - Thank you very much, has been lingering on my mind ever since I heard it

Now I got to see if I have any recording of this raga

It was very nice indeed!!

Arasi Mam - Thank you for your comments. You say you have only listened to one concert in the UK, as they say, you happened to be in the right place at the right time

The Queen of Melody herself!! bet it was a belter!!

Nick - Amen. And I second the view that more people contribute the more the spread. And it will avoid people like me coming to wrong conclusions

I just got word that there is a Jugalbandhi at the same venue in March. Sitar and Violin. I can't remember the name of the sitar player, but on the violin is Balu Raguram!!!!! Can't wait.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Feb 2009, 21:49

You said it! And what a concert it was! I did not hear her at all for many years after that because our visits to India in those days were far and few.
Jugalbandi, eh? Have fun, Liverpudlian!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Feb 2009, 01:33

That will be Balu Raguraman --- not that the deduction of a syllable would make his playing any less delightful

. I was happy to see him play here in Chennai this season and to spend a few hours with him.

Before I discovered Bharatya Vidia Bhavan (How could it have kept itself secret from me for all those years), London's Purcell Room was my favourite venue for Indian music, and one of the few places I knew where it was regularly performed. It was/is comfortable and just the right size. I don't know how much redevelopment has been done at The South Bank in the past few years; I thought they were going to do away with it. I hope it is still as I remember it.

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 08 Feb 2009, 19:19

Good to see that harmony has been established! I am happy to read about Manorama, who I have known since childhood, and her students, who, I am sure are a dedicated group!

Now, to help Mahesh relish a vAsaMti rAga again, I have some info.:

There is a CD titled Tillana produced by SASHTI Inc in Dallas, TX (U S A) which has seven tillanas composed, directed and rendered by Smt. Nagamani Srinath, vocally supported by her disciple Smt. R Chandrika. Orchestration is by SrI. Anoor Ananthakrishna Sharma, the multitalented percussionist.

The first item is a delightful tillana in vAsaMti rAga! The sAhitya is in kannaDa and very enjoyable as well.

Orchestration is excellent in this CD and Smt. Nagamani's rendition in this particular item is mindblowing.

I can send by email the contact info. to reach the producers of this CD.

Mahesh, in return, may I ask you to get me contact info. for Bhavani Prasad, the mRdangist?

Sreeni Rajarao

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Feb 2009, 21:06

for Bhavani Prasad, the mRdangist

That'll be Bhavani Shankar I would think. Not sure if his name is correctly given earlier in the thread, and just started migrane, so won;t be able to read for an hour or so.

Google may well help, although you'll have to filter out the Northern-Indian percussionist of the same name.

(The world has stopped spinning around my head, these attacks don't last long --- and the name was given correctly in the first post, so must have been a slip of the fingers on the keys

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Feb 2009, 21:25

Reading about the melaragamalika raises a question in my mind. ( This is only tangentially related to this thread )

Who established the raga characteristics of the various mELas? Was that Sri. Maha Vaidyanadha Sivan? I have not really listened to the two melaragamalikas closely to know if many of those mELa ragas are just scale traversals or there follow/establish the usual raga definitions in terms 'Characteristic Prayogas, gamakas, jIva swaras etc'.

I recall Shrikaanth (DRS) mentioning to us before that even Venkatamakhi does not call the melas as ragas ( notwithstanding the fact that some melas happen to correlate to well established ragas ). In my self-appointed role of half-baked ambassador, when I talk about CM to those who know less than me

, I make it a point to say that scales are not ragas. But such melaraga malikas, even the name, seem to contradict that notion. Can someone clarify please?

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 08 Feb 2009, 22:49

Nick,
You are right, I meant Bhavani Shankar.
I tried google, no luck there!
Thanks!

Sreeni

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Feb 2009, 17:53

VK< my own laymanish theory is that raga lakshanas are not cast in stone anywhere. They emerge gradually from compositions/musical practise and treatises which try to make sense of these (SSP being a case in point).

Charactertistics of at least some melas must surely have predated Mahavaidyanatha Iyer - Thyagaraja has given life to several melas that emerged from Venkatamakhin's classication - Kiravani, K Priya, Charukeshi, Vagedeeshwari, Ganamoorthi etc. being cases in point. Deekshitar put his weight behind ragas like Hemavathi, Dharmavathi, Sumadhyuthi etc.

Some of these ragas may have predated the Melakarta scheme but the point is that no one can lay down laws for raga lakshana in a void of practical examples. Mahavaidyanatha Iyer gave some swaroopa to the Melas through his Melaragamalika - Koteeshwara Iyer has done his bit to cover the blanks in the Mela scheme. However there are still several melas that are yet to assume a distinctive character. Unless composers of the Trinity's merit come along (especially Thyagaraja in this regard), it will take centuries for some of them to graduate.

Coming to ragas versus scales, critics rant endlessly against scale-based interpretations but the fact is that in CM the distinction between the two is greatly blurred. Unlike HM where different ragas using the same notes are not uncommon (although often characterized by a foreign note), CM has very few examples - Syama/Devagandhari/Arabhi and Nayaki/Durbar are the only ones that readily come to mind. In HM almost every major raga has a variant that uses the same notes!

My own opinion is that the musician's aim should be to carve out ragas out of scales - be it in compositions or in manodharmic interpretations. Permutations and combinations have their uses in stimulating the intellect but shaping unique refrains is a higher aesthetic pursuit and IMO more difficult to achieve. This was, in fact, the cornerstone of Thyagaraja's genius.

mnsriram · Post by **mnsriram** » 10 Feb 2009, 16:17

MaheshS wrote:Madhurasmriti - Thank you very much, has been lingering on my mind ever since I heard it Now I got to see if I have any recording of this raga It was very nice indeed!!

There is a very nice composition of Sri K Ramaraj with a short AlApana as well in vAsanti

http://www.karnatik.com/c3480.shtml

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 10 Feb 2009, 16:40

I figgured Bhavani Shankar's contact details from the web. I am not sure whether these are correct, just what I found Googling for teachers in Indian Classical Music in London!

Instruments : karnatikMusic, Mridangam, Percussion
Name : K. S. Bhavani Shankar
Phone : 02085787340
Mobile : 07886963638

i_srinivasan · Post by **i_srinivasan** » 11 Feb 2009, 02:00

Sreeni Rajarao, It may be worth checking with Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.

http://www.jas-musicals.com/sectrad/JasTeachers.asp

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2009, 05:11

Vijay: I was not really thinking of the special cases of the same scale exhibiting different ragas to say 'scale is not a raga'.. But then you make the following significant point.

Permutations and combinations have their uses in stimulating the intellect but shaping unique refrains is a higher aesthetic pursuit and IMO more difficult to achieve.

Good point. Once some geniuses derive the higher aesthetic for a non-raga melas, then it can be considered to have enough melodic potential to be considered a raga. Until then it is probably a scale traversal exercise ( not putting a negative value judgement by saying that ). As seen in our recent discussion on bhairavi/mukhari /huseni etc. such higher level aesthetics come out of swara sequences, gamakas, specific ways traversal even if it is a straight traversal etc. There is so much subtleity involved in exhibiting the raga aesthetics. When brought out thus, it is not that difficult for an average rasika, who does not anything about the underlying technicalities, to latch on to that aesthetic. I think, in that context, it is right to say scales are not ragas in CM.

Did SrI mahAvaidhynAtha Sivan and Koteeswara Iyer who composed the melamalikas manage to elevate some of the non-raga melas to ragas in the above sense?

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 11 Feb 2009, 11:08

VK I think you have summarized it well - raga is different from a scale but interpretations of several rare ragas tends to be scalar. As you have said this is not necessarily a bad thing but inferior to the pursuit of discovering melody in these scales.

Obviously the distinction involves some subjectivity - which is why one is unable to pass a firm judgement on Sivan/Iyer one way or the other. I admit that my exposure to Pranatharthi Hara is somewhat limited to I will leave it alone. I would venture to say that Iyer has succeeded in giving form to at least a few ragas - Chalanata (Eedayya Gathi) and Rishabhapriya (Gananaya Desika), for example, are melodies that stick in the mind. But, IMHO, Thyagaraja was in a completely different league.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 11 Feb 2009, 11:57

In one of the lecdem recordings, I remember Dr.S.Ramanathan stating that melas are different from ragas.

In that very educative lecdem (if am right on allied ragas) he brought out the difference between scales and ragas very well.

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 12 Feb 2009, 07:26

Thanks for some leads to reach Bhavani Shankar!
Since I am not in the U.K., I was hoping to get an email address to reach him.
Thanks for the ph #!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 12 Feb 2009, 09:42

rajumds wrote:In one of the lecdem recordings, I remember Dr.S.Ramanathan stating that melas are different from ragas.

In that very educative lecdem (if am right on allied ragas) he brought out the difference between scales and ragas very well.

Normally when people do srutibhedam, say for example from shankarabharanam, I feel, what results is a scale and not raga- we just get the glimpse of it and we associate it with the ragam which arises from that scale. Beyond that they can not bring out the actual ragam there.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Feb 2009, 11:45

You are right Punarvasu - it is impossible to get the raga through Shruthi Bedham...the "pure scales" of some ragas esp Thodi and Kalyani sound very different from what we are used to in concerts! MMG and Shankarabharanam are more "recognizable" in their raw form IMO.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 12 Feb 2009, 12:53

vijay wrote: MMG and Shankarabharanam are more "recognizable" in their raw form IMO.

Probbaly the reason for being taught in beginners lessons.