Pronunciation of the word "Carnatic"

Languages used in Carnatic Music & Literature
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uday_shankar
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Post by uday_shankar »

From time to time I see purists in this forum and elsewhere getting ticked off by the "tic" part of the word Carnatic insisting that it should really be Karnatak and hence CM should really be KM and so on...

I believe the error started because of insufficient training in English phonetics among Indian subjects. It seems plausible that when some British surveyor first heard the word Karnatak he (most likely not a "she") spelled it correctly as Carnatic, with the vowel 'i' pronounced as in "sir" or "first". Over the decades and centuries, Indians reading just the spelling and being trained to pronounce the 'i' mostly as in words like "fit" and such, started pronouncing Carnatic like we do now. In the process the word Carnatic has acquired an almost english adjectival ring to it...like pathetic or idiotic :).

Another Indian name/word that used to be spelled in English with an 'i' in the place of an 'a' is the Bengali name Sarkar which was often spelled as Sircar. This is less in vogue after independence. In the old days I think Karachi used to have an alternative spelling "Kirachi".

The trouble is that the english language does not have the concept of long and short vowels like we do in India. So "Karnatak" or "Carnatak" might have ended up sounding a little "tachy" with the last syllable "tak" being pronounced as in the word "tachy". So the original British spellers did their best under the circumstances.

Today, Indians can pronounce my last name shankar correctly, thanks to their poor training in english phonetics. But everybody else in the world calls me "shaankahr". So much so that I myself do so to speed up transactions with an airline booking clerk, say. Ideally my name should have been spelled "shunker" or some such. But then Indians would distort it beyond recognition.

Take the original names of the little satellite towns of Kolkata...Baranagar and Chandernagar. The old British spellings for these towns - Baranagore and Chundernagore respectively - were perfect phonetic representations of the Bengali pronunciations of those names. And yet, I've heard people make fun of those spellings as if it were some quaint British distortions.
Last edited by Guest on 18 Jun 2009, 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

Uday - a rose by any other name!

Regarding your issue with the (mis)pronunciation of your name - all I can say is 'pittan enrAlum avan pEyan enrAlum...'.... :P (before you throw those brick bats, just want to point out that I share the very same issue! :))
Last edited by rshankar on 18 Jun 2009, 23:33, edited 1 time in total.

srkris
Site Admin
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Post by srkris »

This is really a topic on phonetics, and so I am moving it to languages section

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Shunkers,
'funtastic!', as 'sume' brits would say...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

I am glad Uday has given a logical derivation of the spelling of carnatic by the early English men! I thought those Sahibs with their nose in the air labelled the sounds (cur = a crazy dog +nut = an eccentric person +ack = the ear-aching sound of the ack-ack) curnutack :) but a benign dubaaShi changed the spelling to 'carnatic' :)

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

SarkAr is pronounced as SorkAr and rAman is pronounced as romEn

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Be happy that someone doesn't spell it Ramen as in noodles!

mohan
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Post by mohan »

I have seen academics like Prof N. Ramanathan and Prof R. Sathyanarayana use the term "Karnataka Music" and this is probably the more accurate version but "Carnatic music" is by far the most common usage.

sridhar_ranga
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Post by sridhar_ranga »

So would it be correct to say:

Karnataka music = tradition (but not followed today, some want to bring it back!)
Carnatic music = Style (Englishman's or the dubaash's style of spelling the word?)

And in this case, thankfully, Tradition = Style :)
Last edited by sridhar_ranga on 19 Jun 2009, 13:32, edited 1 time in total.

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

mohan wrote:I have seen academics like Prof N. Ramanathan and Prof R. Sathyanarayana use the term "Karnataka Music".
I guess this is the translation of 'karnATaka sangIta(m)...', but not everything with the prefix 'karnATaka' is considered desirable or good - CML/Arasi/GBL and others will remember the line 'kaDu kaDu vena mug(kh)am mArudal karnATaka vazhakkam anrO' from the song (in sindhu bhairavi?) 'nalla peNmaNi miga nalla peNmaNI', from the movie maNamagaL. :P

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

,, the first one is from Missiyamma song.. (pazhagat theriya vENum..)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

In mOhanam?
kaDu kaDuvena mugam mARudal karnAtaka vazhakkam anRO?
ga pa/ ga pa ga pa/ dA da/ SA Sa
Sa Ri/ GA Ri Sa/ dA da/SA Sa

Here karnAtakam means old fashioned--not being 'with it'. We used the expression often. 'orE karnatakam!' about a girl or a family who did not follow any modern trends. How did that meaning come about? Anyway, that had nothing to do with karnAtaka. Kalki chose that pseudonym for his reviews because he was writing about karnATaka sangeetam, I guess.
CML, does this make you KML?!

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

cml is 'carnatic music lover' 'classical music lover' 'cine music lover' ''catholic' music lover'...
the 'K' will not fit :)

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

REally? All this I thought it was 'cml over'!
;)

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

That is a good one CML

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

ragam-talam wrote:REally? All this I thought it was 'cml over'!
;)
Oh yes! It is the 'cml over' which wins the trophy in all the Carnatic Music League games without loosing any wickets :)
It is the key to winning the 20/20 in the CM Field!
Plain ragam-talam training will be inadequate :)

gobilalitha
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Post by gobilalitha »

Almost all the north indians will pronounce our former President's name as venkatraman(no extra A sound after r) and not venkatraaman .Similarly,NEIVELI AS NAIVELI. gobilalitha

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

Most of the north Indian some how are able to remember the name venkatraman, they have trouble remembering my first name

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

cmlover wrote:Plain ragam-talam training will be inadequate :)
Agreed, inadequate for cmlover.
But for ragam-talam it's more than adequate!
;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

What's the use of plain ragam-talam without the pallavi?
That is why it is inadequate for the cmlover!
Without it, it is just plain palvali (tooth-ache) :)

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

You have made the fundamental mistake that novices make!
You have confused ragam-talam for ragam-tanam

Pallavi without ragam-talam is no pallavi, only pal-vali.

R-T rules!
;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Sorry! Since I was occupied hunting for a rare RTP I made the error!
Ragam is the foundation (bIjaM) of CM. It has an independent existence. taaLam does not survive by itself (except in 'laya vinyaasam' which iis not strictly CM). Hence the ardhanaari R-T is still naked without the lyrics (provided in a pallavi). I mean R-T is incomplete! R-T becomes a laughing-stock trying to put tala for the raaga aalaapana in a concert:)

cmlover will enjoy that comedy :)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

And we all enjoy the comedy which results from the two of you doing your samvAdam :)

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

There's a talk by Palghat Mani Iyer where he speaks about talam existing in everything in life. SRJ talks about a certain time measure that is appropriate even for raga alapanam.
No sir, ragam and talam are two sides of the same coin called music.
Hmm, the ardhanaari is Shiva himself! And his dance is this very existence itself.

All this, while 'cml over' sits in a corner and laughs away.
Tut tut...

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Of course there are four stages in raga aalaapana but they are not time bound. Only during thaanam they get within time measures in a limited way. Finally the taalam evolves fully only during the kriti. Siva on his own is unitary. He was the primeval praNava sound which was not time-bound. When he decided to create the universe the shakti evolved out of him. Then from his 'Damaru' he created the Maheshvara Sutra from which were born the very first language 'deva bhaaSha'. That articulated the vedas (which was always there). In particular Sama veda evolved into music with primitive time measures (anudatta, udatta, svarita). So obviously tala evolved out of 'raga'. The combination with lyrics (words) evolved into the music as we know today. So raga has the individual existence, the combination R-T does not (though I am not denying that some mridangists do play for the 'taanam' part of RTP.

There can be an infinity of ragas. But the number of talas are limited unless it is inflated artificially (I could not appreciate the simhanandana tala , for example).



R-T is the evolutionary stage and is as such incomplete like the ardhanari. Only with the lyrics it becomes CM like the fully adorned Uma Maheshvara. Wipe out our vaggeyakaras and then there is no CM. 'cmlover' is a lover of CM, the finished product. Not a half-baked R-T :)
cmlover's laugh can be captured in a raga but it is not tala-bound :)

(By the by, I would love to get a reference to SRJ's talk)

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

Seems you haven't heard of the saying "Sruthi matha, laya pitha"
See here: http://popcorns101.blogspot.com/2009/06 ... natic.html
‘Sruti matha, laya pitha’ is the crux of Carnatic music.
It means the drone and rhythm are mother and father to music.
Subduing sruthi and laya is required to master the art.
Carnatic music expresses these two by the way of Raga and Tala respectively.
This says it all. cmlover is left in the wayside. Possibly Cine film music lover? Or Cuchra music lover?
;)

I will look for the SRJ lec-dem. Must be somewhere in the public domain.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Of course "Sruthi matha, laya pitha"
They are the rudiments like the alphabets. But alphabets do not make a language! Similarly the monotony of shruthi and laya is no good for cmlover (maybe good just during meditation!). Maybe R-T munching 'popcorns' can enjoy them eternally! By the by Sruthi and Laya do not coexist without kritis. What laya do you play for a shruti? Don't they switch off the shruti during tani? Hence R-T the way you claim is a curious mongrel :)
cmlover continues laughing :)

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

cml has become a kurumbu now!
Not respecting your own mata-mita will lead you nowhere. Still have some time to make amends.

Going back to the topic of this thread, since you are not KML, it must be Cine music lover for sure.
Do continue laughing, but please do it in sruti and laya please!
;)

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

..looks like you need 'udhay' to correct your thinking to get back on track:)
simple 'love' is not adequate :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

He is XML ;) (BTW, this back and forth has been comedic, and always at the very delicate edge of falling over to the other side!! )

PUNARVASU
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Post by PUNARVASU »

'Shruti mAtA'layah pitA'- I am reproducing one of my posts from the 'hilarity in kutcheris 'thread; may be somewhat relevant- of course not on the comical side but on a more serious note- :)
Re: Hilarity in kutcherisI wonder whether this post of mine belongs here; but could not find an appropriate thread-worth pondering over.
In kalki magazine, there is a column 'ask crazy(Mohan)-crazyaikkELungaL'.
Some one has asked him 'if shruti is mAtA,and layam is pitA, what is bhAvam?
Crazy Mohan has replied 'bhAvam is wife. but if one forgets mother(shruti) and father(layam) after the wife(bhAvam) arrives, it is ahambhAvam!
I think he has said it all

arasi
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Post by arasi »

AiyyO pAvam!
A good one, Punarvasu.

For the one who calls the other 'kuRumbu', it is karumbu! And the very stalk of karumbu comes in handy for dueling, for both parties.
As kOkilam says, it is comedic, so long as good humor prevails...:)

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

cmlover wrote:..looks like you need 'udhay' to correct your thinking to get back on track:)
Well, it seems to be more like 'astamanam' in the world of uday. I am the one who is getting him back on track.
Did I mention 'R-T rules'?
;)

VK RAMAN
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Post by VK RAMAN »

egos at its work

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Punarvasu:
shruti mAtA layah pitA
sAhityam Eva ca bhAryA
mAtA pitA ca bhavakAraNaM
bhAryA hi bhavati bhAvaM||


bhAvamEva janayati gItaM
bhAvaM vinA kuta sangItaM?

(no translation needed !

R-T:
I meant you need a 'kick' (udhay) to get you on the right track :)
The appearance of Uday is immaterial :)
(since anybody can deliver it :)
Note also that R-T is a bachelor (or widower) without sahitya and hence will fade off 'intestate' ; let alone rule!
(cmlover will then be crying :(

ragam-talam
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Post by ragam-talam »

All wishful thinking, cml. Without the music in the first place, what would cml do? Sit in a corner and moan?
And you should have said 'odai'. It seems you've had first-hand experience in getting these 'odais'. I'm surprised you are still a kuRumbu. I may need to work on you next.
Ha ha!
;)

arasi
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Post by arasi »

gadaiyaip piDittaDittAlum adu odaiyAgumO?
udai paDuvadu udaiyAltAn, udaRi aDittuk koNDu
ODinAlum, odungi ninRAlum, udaTTAl anganam SonnAlum,
adu udaiyE!

* udai as in udaRi, udaDu

rajesh_rs
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Post by rajesh_rs »

I've heard the anglicization of Thirunelveli to Tinnevelly. Kind of captures what the Englishmen understood as they listened to colloquials spell out the name of the place.

I use Carnatic music most times, but am not averse to using "Karnataka sangeetham". Trouble is, it is difficult to popularize a change in something which is used so universally. The erstwhile name of Madras has been changed to Chennai and the old guard is indeed changing, but even purists refer to the art form as "Carnatic" music. How is change possible?

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