New thala structure called Sivapalathalam.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 20 Mar 2007, 19:34

yes Arun, I meant only the thani.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Mar 2007, 19:40

ok. i thought we were talking about musical significances of angas in a tala. They dont mean as much during korvais in tani (mainly because i think korvais employ various gatis in way that makes it impossible to adhere to internal structure)

Arun

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 20 Mar 2007, 19:47

yeah, but "impossible" is too strong a word. Maybe nobody tried it and everyone was taught to play korvais one way. And I dont think playing different gathis is a requirement, it is just an option.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Mar 2007, 19:53

that i dont know. mridangam experts would obviously have more insight

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Mar 2007, 22:22

arunk wrote:I may be wrong but I think you may be taking the view of percussionists paying attention to only total # of aksharas a bit too far. That applies more during tani. During the krithi, they must pay attention to the important stress points and hence indirectly to angas.

msakeellaji has stated before in no uncertain terms the following.

1) Stress points and Angas do not have much to do with each other ( exception being arudi )
2) In CM tradition, mridangists do not necessarily indicate angas with their strokes
3) In CM tradition, mridangists do not necessarily indicate the beginning of the thala cycle. In his own funny way, he said that we do not fall over in joy or jubliation on reaching the samam ( paraphrasing )

I think what Arun is referring to is the (vague) notion people use 'pAttukku vAsikkanum' ( play for the song ). Meaning, the cadences and strokes are appropriate for the song and follow the song structure. If the composition/tune does not have any conformity to the anga structure as a rule, then even ''pAttukku vAsikkira' style would not align with the angas.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Mar 2007, 23:48

i would like to think that every occurance of an anga doesnt matter equally every time. They are just available as potential stress points and anchors which can be used as a composer deems fit. Perhaps their position in the tala cycle (e.g. mid point or a tail-end dhrutam) may decide how they can be used rather than their mere presence. For example in dhruva and matya talas, the cycle ends in a potentially lengthy anga the laghu. Also, in both, the mid-point of the cycle falls in the middle of an anga. I am guessing that would make the usage of the angas as stress points "different" and not as how we are used to with Adi. Same with aTA (no mid point at start of anga) although it has the dhrutam ending like Adi. Also if you compare between roopaka tala "official" (dhrutam + laghu) vs 2 cycles of rUpaka cApu, i guess the latter could allows different (and maybe better?) stress points - it now allows for a mid-point and also beat at the end for the cycle for a refrain.

Of course all of this is wild conjecture on top of a yet-to-be-validated hypothesis that stress points are better served at start of angas

Arun

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 21 Mar 2007, 17:34

Dear member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, Even our fore-fathers thought that it is always healthy to correlate even our Deshadi, Madhyadi and Chapu-talas, which are mostly used in folk-music, with our general talas of our Karnataka music having a scientific base and thus Deshadi and Madhyadi-talas are linked with our Adi-tala and the Chapu-talas used with only two beats of 3, 5, 7 & 9 units with Trisra-eka, Trisra-rupaka, Trisra-triputa and Khanda-triputa respectively. Thus, we do not have a Tala without a scientific base. If you bring this Sivapalathalam also under this scientific base proving its authenticity of origin with its specific serial number. In this respect you can get the help of our brother-member, sbala who have already learnt much of our Talaprastara. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Mar 2007, 21:18

Adi tala often falls so naturally into two halves that, in my ignorance of the language, and often even the song title, I can get confused and find my self half a cycle off-set to those who are keeping talam corrrectly. Embarrassing but true.

There seem, to my ear, to be two distinctive patterns in three-beat songs.

One follows the 1-2-3 tisra pattern so familiar to the Western ear, and you can almost hear the words ThaKiTha in it.

The other follows the 1-2-1-2-3-4 and can be hard for the western ear (mine at least!) to follow.

Listening to a song and putting 2 claps, 1 wave rupaka talam it is sometimes hard to feel a connection. I find that often, put chatusra jati rupaka talam and the rhythmic pattern is revealed! (the six beats have to be put in the time of one cycle)

In neither case does the midpoint seem of significance, unless considering doubling the speed.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Mar 2007, 00:03

nick,

i dont how much of a significance this is but regarding the mid-point, I was sort of contemplating along the following lines (based on my admittedly very limited experience):

Take the pallavi one of the songs in rUpaka tALa i have learned:
sItamma mAyamma
SrIrAmuDu mA(ku)taNDri

if put as 2+4 (beat,wave+laghu) then 1st line (sItamma mAyamma) above takes one 2+4 cycle, and second line as one 2+4 cycle. If put as 1+2/1+1+1 (beat+beat+wave), then of course 1st line takes 2 such cycles, and the 2nd line takes 2 more. In this second approach, at least the way I learned it, sItamma is one cycle, mAyamma is another cycle. Similarly SrIrAmuDU is one cycle (the way i learned it this word starts after a pause), and mAkutANDri is another cycle.

So with the cApu style each word is in its own mini cycle, and the long syllable mA of the second words lines up with the beat i.e. stress/emphasis at the start of the second-mini cycle.

In the first approach the emphasis points dont line up like this. Of course, I am not saying that makes it bad - it is just different. But i do wonder whether in this case the structure lend better to the cApu style?

In another rUpaka tALA song learnt "Sobhillu saptaswara" also, i find similar division and the elaborate sangatis on the second word anchoring on beats of the capu ( sa... ptaa.. swara.. for 1 + 1+ 1) seem for some reason to have a nice effect.

Although perhaps I am reading too much and it wont make an ounce of difference if they occur inside the laghu (as the last 3 finger counts). I wont be surprised if there are rUpaka tALa examples which run completely counter to my examples above

.

Anyway just wanted to clarify further as to why i thought the mid-point may offer some extra possibilities.

Arun

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 22 Mar 2007, 09:01

.com
Member

Re: New thala structure called `Sivapalathalam.'

sree vasanthakokilam> just like a foolish person changing his name evey time he goes to another street of his village.)It like enough thalams we can see in some thala prastharas with same akshara but unfotunately we have no half beat thalam ( calling them Chapu-talas but they did not take them in terms of 1 Â½ or 2 Â½ or 3 Â½ or 4 Â½ and so on as they also thought that such thing makes the mathematical applications cumbersome.)that means 13.5 is not coming from CM or in this catagory . Shyama Shastryâ€™s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. Having no knowledge of the rare topic, Talaprastara, many stalwarts might have supported this )*** So Iam not going to make any change in sivapalathalam wich was derived from the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions .......... (HINDU NEWS >>> Dedicated research Inspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms lnspired by the rich thala patterns in our folk traditions and art forms likeike Ottanthullal, Shivapalatham is the result of Harimohanan's dedicated research for several years. He has also drawn on his experience as an artiste for more than three decades. "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, with specific calculations," he explains. The speciality of Shivapalathalam is that it is based on 13-and-a-half beats. According to Harimohanan,) This is the news from the hindu .I have anxiety about knowing that Sree Gurugi is the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of this Talaprastara, who is saying 13.5 is out of it (what i said is proved..... accurate) A man can take a horse to the water but 20 cant make it drink .(Now iam 50 becoming little dry ) thank you

Last edited by priya

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 22 Mar 2007, 13:41

Sree vasanthakokilam Bharatmuni said " I have observed Hari doing what he vouches. Great practicing vocalists, music instrumentalists and dancers (names have already been mentioned in the former notes) have aaproved of its genuine features.Regarding the negative or negative-looking comments, my humble feeling is that the open ones must ignore them. "Discovery" is not bringing something that did not exist hitherto; it's revealing or bringing the lesser known or unknown to 'a period', into the field of attention of others. It's like the Edison's egg story. When one does it others can always say that's already known (like pathalathalam ) . But, the question is, did you tavel the trabeculae to reach that?Those who speak about the period of a needle passing through several petals of lotus ...... and.... the etc. etc... & making the intricacies of taalas sound so abominable, msut be able to accept a 'half aksharakaala also' .)Hindusthani Sopana style music keraliya thala vadyams no o5 video (http://sivapalathalam.wetpaint.com/ ) the Great art Kadhakali Ottam tullal Kadhak Odisi etc are not having tha methord like CM but exalted .Iam very happy to see that 2.5 3.5 4.5 akshara is also exated in cm .We have already 9 (sankeernajathy aka thalam or other thalams having same beat )If we play 9+4.5 means What happen ? .Like(9 is our member 4.5 is our member so we have to wecome both....

ram · Post by **ram** » 23 Mar 2007, 09:33

Based on the (carnatic) songs I have heard, I think the significance of mid-point (arudi) is for pallavis (in RTPs) and not for kritis. There are so many kritis that do not end or give a stress just after the mid-point. Of course, I don't rules of how kritis are composed and hence can't vouch for the authenticity of the above observation.

In the hindustani songs I have heard, the stress seems to be on end-points (ending at the mid-point of the tala cycle) with a bit of lenience on the starting point(s). But again, I haven't heard much of hindustani and may be different kinds of compositions there have different rules.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Mar 2007, 20:03

ram,

The mid point is definitely very significant in RTP in a special way - i didnt mean to apply the same to krithis. In fact TRS in a lec-dem specially demonstrates how cakkani rAja would be sung as a pallavi - to make the point that mid-point/arudi doesnt mean much in krithis and dont have to be emphasized in krithis like so for RTPs.

But i was thinking of some more examples of rUpaka tALa. Even lambOdara the first gItam we all learn, which is put in catuSra rUpaka style, has many (but not all) lines which are split internally as 3+3:
SrI gaNanAta (3) + sindura varna (3)
karuNa sAgara (3) + karivadana (3)
lambOdhara (3) lakumikara (3)
ambAsutha (3) amaravinuta (3)
siddhacAraNa (3) gaNasEvita (3)

(There are 3 lines which dont split this way)

Also take miSra jhampa put as 4 cycles of khanDa cApu. Atleast in sIta kalyANa (the way i learnt it), many of the lines themselves are subdivided internally into 2 halfs where each take 2 cycles of khanDa cApu:

sIta kalyANa (2) + vaibOgamE (2)
rAma kalyANA (2) + vaibOgamE (2)

pavanajA stuti pAtra (2) + pAvana carItra (2)
ravi sOma pavanEtra (2) + ramaNiya gAtra (2)

bhaktajana paripAla (2) + bharitaSarajAla (2)
bhukthimuktidalIla (2) + bhUlOka pAla (2)
etc.

I havent checked all the lines but this atleast seems to show a tangible pattern. Of course i dont know how much of a trend i.e. among the entire sample set of krithis and so this is just food for thought. Perhaps composers can pitch in.

Perhaps the above is an outcome of poetrical meter and (wild speculation starts here)possibly a natural tendency in us to think in halves/doubles and thus a tendency to utilize the mid-point (if available) to our advantage. For example, pallavi is 2 lines, anupallavi is 2 lines and within each we look for 2 halfs etc. etc. Even songs with miSra cApu, khaNDa cApu i have heard that most lines will take even numbers (2 or 4 cycles) - i dont know how true it is. This same tendency to think in halves/doubles coulld the one that makes catuSra gati (i.e power of 2 and thus amenable to halving) seem most natural to us and being most common in use.

Arun

ram · Post by **ram** » 25 Mar 2007, 22:14

Arun,

Is the TRS lec dem you are talking about available for listening/download somewhere?

Thanks,
Ram

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Mar 2007, 23:05

Ram,

I dont remember from where I got it but i do think it was as a download from the internet. I also vaguely remember people referring to aspects of it here.

If it is not already available somewhere, I can make it available for download.

Arun

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 12 Jun 2007, 09:27

sreegurugy maskella (inthe64post)said that

Shyama Shastryâ€™s Sharabhanandana-tala fits in Talaprastara like all the other rhythmical forms of the universe and can be used even as a rhythmical form but cannot be rendered at all, this structure of Sivapalathalam is the only one of its kind I have ever seen which does not even fit in Talaprasatara at all. will you please clarify howmany aksharas for that rair thalam

.thing you can clarify thank you sirI

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 12 Jun 2007, 15:34

Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, Which rare Tala do you mean I am unable to make out? In the annals of our music literature, I did never find such a Tala like Sharabhanandana. But, the rhythmical form of Sharabhanandana consisting of 24 Talangas and 79 Kriyas in Chaturashra-gati/nadai fits in Talaprastara and, if we try, we can get its serial number and its authenticity as a rhythmical form as well even though it should not be rendered as a Tala. And the number of Kriyas vary if we render it in other Gatis/nadais. Thus, even though no other such rhythmical form has ever been brought out and named after, it is being treated as a rare Tala.
But, Sivapalatalam, said to have been consisted of 13 Â½ Kriyas, is also being treated as a rare Tala by you as you yourself have brought it out fondly. If it consists of 13 Â½ Kriyas you are compelled to render each Kriya in Chaturashra-gati/nadai only and in such case it consists of (13 Â½ x 4 = ) 54 Aksharas. And if you want to prove its authenticity even as a rhythmical form, you should only furnish its serial number(s) and tell how many Aksharas it carries in each Avarta if it is rendered in other Gatis/nadais. Everybody is aware that no fractions are allowed at all in furnishing numbers unless we need them for a specific purpose and in the same manner no fractions are allowed in rendering Kriyas. amsharma.

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 19 Jun 2007, 21:34

Everybody is aware that no fractions are allowed at all in furnishing numbers unless we need them for a specific purpose and in the same manner no fractions are allowed in rendering Kriyas. amsharma.(If we are playing 27 thisram or other gathis IN ONE AVARTHANAM what is wrong in it ) If it is right gathy is possible .13.5 is one ghanda jathy thripuda plus one sankeerna chappu .so both two thalam is existing in CM putting thalam is different (folk traditional style of ottam thullal) that is why sivapalathalam is different .If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music,KINDLY RE

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 20 Jun 2007, 07:52

Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, There is nothing wrong in â€˜playing 27
Trisram or other Gathis in one Avartamâ€™. You are at liberty to play as you like but in a disciplined manner. As per your version â€“ one Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine (9) Kriyas in an Avarta plus one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries nine (9) Kriyas in another Avarta totaling to 18 Kriyas. As all are aware, mainly, there are five Gatis, Trisra, Chaturashra, Khanda, Mishra and Sankeerna Gatis carrying 3, 4, 5, 7 & 9 units respectively per each Kriya. If these Gatis are applied to this Tala carrying 18 Kriyas in each Avarta the total units are 18 x 3 = 54, 72, 90, 126 & 162 units respectively. Now, choose one among them and tell me how many units are running in each Avarta of your Shivapalatalam in a clear and disciplined manner. No Tala ever disappears and simply vanishes in thin air. We stop using them lest spilling out our own beans. There are thousands of Talas which we have stopped using them having become in-efficient day by day. Thatâ€™s all. amsharma.

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 20 Jun 2007, 19:31

sir In the same speed Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine in other words 36units and the one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries 18 units (2speed) that means If both thalams putting together and playing we need how many units for each gathy pl clarify................... (2)If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing. My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, pl give reply for this and how can you help me also for popularaising this rair folk thalam sir

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 20 Jun 2007, 19:39

sivapalathalam wrote:sir In the same speed Khanda-jaati Triputa which carries nine in other words 36units and the one Sankeerna Chapu which also carries 18 units (2speed) that means If both thalams putting together and playing we need how many units for each gathy pl clarify................... (2)
If it is not fit in CM MEANS THE RULS OF CM IS NOT SUIT FOR SIVAPALATHALAM "Although quite unique, traditional Keralite thalams like Lakshmi, Marmam and Kundanachi are fast disappearing.
My effort is to enrich and correlate these patterns with the thalas used in Carnatic music, pl give reply for this and how can you help me also for popularaising this rair folk thalam sir

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 20 Jun 2007, 21:06

Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, In your previous post you have written that the Shivapalathalam is the combination of two Talas, Khanda-jaaati Triputa and Sankeerna-chapu totaling to 18 Kriyas. As per our Shastra all these 18 Kriyas should consist of the same duration. But, now, you are telling that the Khanda-jaati Triputa consists of 36-units and Sankeerna-chapu carries only 18-units. This is like a person having two hands but with different lengths, which is awkward and in-disciplined. There is nothing wrong in popularizing the Folk Talas and, of course, it is our duty to save them from extinction. But, while doing so, you should also try to properly keep their identity. We should not try to mix them with our classical Talas if some problems crop up. Unless I have the detailed knowledge of all your Talas either Folk or Classical Talas I may not be able to help you in any manner. amsharma.

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 20 Jun 2007, 22:42

sair if we are seaing 176 people we can get one like this .how can i kill him. one more doubt is it possible to play 5gathys for sankeerna chapu

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 21 Jun 2007, 07:45

Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, I did not and need not tell you to kill your bosom friend whom you like very much. But, donâ€™t compel others to love him and bear with him like you do. Playing 5 Gatis to Sankeerna-chapu depends upon the duration you give to each Kriya. If that duration accommodates you to fit in the Gati you require you can have it as well. But, hope you will try only one Gati at a time but not the combination of all the Gatis together for Godâ€™s sake. amsharma.

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 14 Aug 2009, 22:58

http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s31priyamhn&r=83 sir iam in polnd conducting thala vadyakachari 20stages igot ,appriciation from many great artsts of europe including great woodstok festivel. i have given answers to their quistions about sivapalathalam and advised them to come to the foram for clarifing their doubts in carnatc music because i know what i am knowing and not noing befor iam reaching the site meter was 1% in europe now can seee how much they like our music and sivapalathalam than us. other thing i did i plaid athithalam and its 5 gathis, from sankerna to sankernatisram that means 27 unitsfor 4beats then shose the connection of sivapalathalam thericaly .everithing easy but pracicaly ..... i got the healp of kerala traditional artist like sree payyavoor narayanamarar .i like not only carnatic music but also hindusthani and kerala style .in the foam i have sean our very very great artists like...... they are mixing thavil chollu annd chanda chollu if that is true why can't a person like me who is a beginer ???.'if thinging about mridanga we canot think with out their name pl advise to them sir

Vedic · Post by **Vedic** » 22 Aug 2009, 02:07

your programme is very very fine thanking the god to get a chance to ...... iam having its video

priyamhn@yahoo.com · Post by **priyamhn@yahoo.com** » 22 Aug 2009, 09:56

thanks thanks you pl visit http://www.hindu.com/fr/2006/06/09/stor ... 780200.htm then you can get an idea. the idea of composing sivapalathalam is coming from not only from carnatic music and hindusthani music but also our own kerala tradisional which is written clearly in hindu .iam very happy to know this much peoples are accepting this thalam [ sivapalathalam ]all over the world through the site meter .iam having enogh programme in europe and invitationse are coming all over world with the grace of god and guruse and critisisors . i dont know which vidio you are having so pl up lod in you tube . happy thanks

Vedic · Post by **Vedic** » 14 Sep 2009, 01:04

Thank for All!. In you tube I find video, But I dont find it now!. Soryy.

tsshreevidya · Post by **tsshreevidya** » 20 Jun 2018, 20:58

msakella wrote: ↑12 Jun 2007, 15:34 Dear brother-member, priyamhn@yahoo.com, Which rare Tala do you mean I am unable to make out? In the annals of our music literature, I did never find such a Tala like Sharabhanandana. But, the rhythmical form of Sharabhanandana consisting of 24 Talangas and 79 Kriyas in Chaturashra-gati/nadai fits in Talaprastara and, if we try, we can get its serial number and its authenticity as a rhythmical form as well even though it should not be rendered as a Tala. And the number of Kriyas vary if we render it in other Gatis/nadais. Thus, even though no other such rhythmical form has ever been brought out and named after, it is being treated as a rare Tala.
But, Sivapalatalam, said to have been consisted of 13 Â½ Kriyas, is also being treated as a rare Tala by you as you yourself have brought it out fondly. If it consists of 13 Â½ Kriyas you are compelled to render each Kriya in Chaturashra-gati/nadai only and in such case it consists of (13 Â½ x 4 = ) 54 Aksharas. And if you want to prove its authenticity even as a rhythmical form, you should only furnish its serial number(s) and tell how many Aksharas it carries in each Avarta if it is rendered in other Gatis/nadais. Everybody is aware that no fractions are allowed at all in furnishing numbers unless we need them for a specific purpose and in the same manner no fractions are allowed in rendering Kriyas. amsharma.

Can u plz share more details about sharabhanandana tala like angas, history, any compositionsor any pallavi plZz

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 23 Jun 2018, 13:03

Dear sister-member, tsshreevidya,
Sharabhanandana is not a Tala which abides by the rules of Taladashapranas but it is one of the innumerable rhythmical forms of the universe. Having no knowledge of Talaprastara, the 10th element many may think it as a Tala but it is not.
Innumerable rhythmical forms are already there in the universe and which abide by the rules of Taladashapranas are only called Talas and others rhythmical forms or chando-rupas only. Thus, Sharabhanandana is a chando-rupa which should not be rendered as a Tala. But, without having the knowledge of Talaprastrara, Shyama Shastry had created and rendered this as a Tala and, pitiably, even Bobbili Keshavaiah had also accepted his defeat. Both are wrong.
Only by the grace of the Almighty I could bring out this topic in four decades and I have brought out 3 books, which are original, on this topic. By this knowledge only I can tell that this is not a Tala at all but a rhythmical form only like all the Tiruppugal rhythmical forms.
You very simply wrote one sentence about what you require and it is not that easy to do so. If you are truly interested in getting them go through all the previous posts of this thread, understand more and again come back to me. amsharma

Christian Kenit Ram · Post by **Christian Kenit Ram** » 13 Jul 2018, 03:22

Here is one video I found , where the structure seems to be clear :

The metronome gives the structure with the half-beat ( 13.5 ) , while the mridangam player makes the kriyas for Khanda Jati Triputa Tala ( 9 aksharas or 9 matras according to some ) over it . So after having done that 3 times , he clapped 27 aksharas ( 3 x 9 = 27 : fitting with 2 x 13.5 = 27 ) , then he makes the original kriyas for this Tala together with metronome , and finally he plays the mridangam over it .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_GRN8qRbmc

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 13 Jul 2018, 08:25

As per the rules and restrictions of Taladashapranas no Tala should consist of any fraction of a beat. Any person who has no knowledge of Talaprastara can bring out such rhythmical form along with a video but he can never bring out its authentic universal serial number. amsharma

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 13 Jul 2018, 09:10

A 13.5 beat pattern is really a 27 beat pattern at 2x speed. There is a unique aesthetic effect in rendering it in such a manner.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 14 Jul 2018, 05:38

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

Adi-tala having originally 8 Kriyas but, for convenience, rendered with additional in-between beats in the slow-tempo need not be defined as a pattern of 16-beats and the same applies to this ‘Sivapalathalam’ also.

In our musical history Sharabhanandana-tala is the famous rhythmical form brought out by our Shyama Shastry, the great. This rhythmical form does not abide by the rules and regulations of Taladashapranas and, thus, this should not be rendered at all as Tala but can be rendered as a rhythmical form or Chando-rupa like Tiruppugal rhythmical forms. Most unfortunately, this cannot be understood by the persons who do not have the full knowledge of Tala-prastara. All such rhythmical forms are just like a couple of horse and ass. amsharma

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 14 Jul 2018, 12:53

msakella wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 05:38 Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

Adi-tala having originally 8 Kriyas but, for convenience, rendered with additional in-between beats in the slow-tempo need not be defined as a pattern of 16-beats and the same applies to this ‘Sivapalathalam’ also.

The Mishra chapu is a 1.5+1+1 beat pattern as rendered, but the fundamental rhythmic pattern of this tala is actually the 43rd permutation under the number 7 (on the basis of numbers) - 1+2+2+2 or tt,t,t,|| However, chApu tAlas don't really have tAlangas where Anudhrutam = 1 and Dhrutam = 2, so by the modern system of desiya tAlas they are to be considered as chandas only.

On the contrary an A+D+D+D (1 anudhrutam + 3 dhrutams) would be a valid tAla under the desiya tAla system.

I always thought that kaLai is a different concept - something similar to 60 bpm or 30 bpm or 15 bpm on the metronome followed by a degree of speed adjustment so that you get 8 or 16 notes per beat.

In theory a 2 kaLai Adi tAla with extra beats can in fact be represented as a separate tAla, but this is not correct as those extra beats really exist only for convenience, as you said.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 15 Jul 2018, 17:30

Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

While the beats of the portion of the Chapu-tala of this so called “Sivapalathalam” have to be rendered @ two-units per beat the beats of the remaining portion of this rhythmical form have to be rendered @ four-units per beat. Thus, this rhythmical form is an un-healthy mixture of horse and ass.

Nowadays, many musicians are interested in getting an easy fame or money or popularity by bringing out a new rhythmical form with a new name of Tala even though it does not abide by the rules of Taladashapranas. They do not know the true Lakshana of Taladashapranas and also they are not ready even to discuss things with the knowledgeable persons. They all do as they like and also expect others to agree with it. In our country this music field itself has been like this since a very long time and we can’t help. amsharma

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 15 Jul 2018, 22:48

There was a rumbling @ Cleveland , I remember when SrI Bhaktavatsalam played a tani , SrI Lalgudi's concert where he played a pharan to reckon 2.5 mAtrAs and it became a topic of discussion, amongst percussionists!

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 16 Jul 2018, 08:19

Dear brother-member, shankarank,
There is vast deference between having the knowledge of Talaprastara and the knowledge of forming a pharan of Mridangam. amsharma

Christian Kenit Ram · Post by **Christian Kenit Ram** » 18 Jul 2018, 13:02

SrinathK wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 12:53
The Mishra chapu is a 1.5+1+1 beat pattern as rendered, but the fundamental rhythmic pattern of this tala is actually the 43rd permutation under the number 7 (on the basis of numbers) - 1+2+2+2 or tt,t,t,|| However, chApu tAlas don't really have tAlangas where Anudhrutam = 1 and Dhrutam = 2, so by the modern system of desiya tAlas they are to be considered as chandas only.

On the contrary an A+D+D+D (1 anudhrutam + 3 dhrutams) would be a valid tAla under the desiya tAla system.

I am not sure , but I think I have found the context for the " 43rd permutation " you are talking about : In one book by Mister Akella there is a table of the permutations for the number 7 ( title is " 1-7-64 " ) . However there are 2 rows , one in ascending numeral order from 1 to 64 ( "A " is written : meaning " Anuloma " ? ) and one in descending order from 64 to 1 ( " V " is written : meaning " Viloma " ? ) . ( 64 would be the number of permutations for 7 units according to the process of Akhanda-Prastara , Sankhya mode --- if I understood correctly )

Ok , the permutation " 1 2 2 2 " is listed as number 22 in the A-row and as number 43 in the V-row . I think that fits together with what you were saying .

But why do you call this formula 43rd and not 22nd ?

I suppose there are rules for that , but reading through the whole chapters is a very lenghty task ; and trying to find specific explanations for small points is not always easy . Even regarding theforum topic " Talaprastara " there only have been 3-4 people who tried to get deeper into the subject , so not many are keen on following so many tables and calculations .( Adding the fact that older posts are incomplete and have some strange symbols like â€˜1â€™ , which I think were not there in the original posts . )

Going further , I am not sure if 43 would be also the serial number .... Probably not , because getting serial number involves deduction of proxies and other steps ....
I abandoned the further steps at this point .

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 18 Jul 2018, 13:29

Oh yes, I had it backwards, where it is #43. Forwards it is #22.

Yes, the subject is hard to learn from a book, actually only because the verbose explanation IMHO is very cumbersome. I am absolutely certain there is a much simpler way to demonstrate it and introduce each term and concept step by step - if only I myself can get comfortable with it - unfortunately I do not have the time.

Like maths, this needs to be learnt by doing first and then some technical terms can be introduced later. We can tell people how to add 2+2 and 2-2 and much later on talk about how the real number system is a subset of complex numbers and all that...

Definitions and technical elements can be understood intuitively by doing it directly. Then it is far far easier. This whole topic can be summed up in a week.

The weird symbols are a result of data corruption at some point.

If there had been more examples and figures, or even videos to show how it is done, and learn the theory after the example, you will see that this tAlaprasthara is not that much more difficult than finding the gcd of 2 numbers or converting a number into binary and back (in fact the talaprashtara procedures are very similar to a binary conversion. The method of deriving rhythmic patterns is entirely based on binary conversion, just replace the 1 with a beat and the 0 with a pause or , or vice versa, and there we are).

Christian Kenit Ram · Post by **Christian Kenit Ram** » 18 Jul 2018, 21:18

Ok , thanks for pointing out these details .

Well , yes , in fact I am waiting for some lengthy video lectures that throw some light into the matter along with diagrams and practical demonstrations with Kriyas . There are many elaborate videos touching other aspects of Tala Vidya , but for Talaprastara I have only seen a small segment as part of the Tala Dasa Pranas .

Somehow related to this was a lec-concert ( video) I saw some time ago by Dhrupad singers where they did a demo of Merukhand alankars . But they did not go deeper into the matter of giving the Shastra Praman of their exercises , as far as I remember .

Christian Kenit Ram · Post by **Christian Kenit Ram** » 21 Jul 2018, 03:45

Christian Kenit Ram wrote: ↑18 Jul 2018, 13:02
Going further , I am not sure if 43 would be also the serial number .... Probably not , because getting serial number involves deduction of proxies and other steps ....

Ok , I can not edit this old above post anymore , so I am adding that after comparing other tables and serial numbers I think that 22 ( and 43 in reverse ) IS INDEED the serial number for the permutation 1 2 2 2 .
I am going to post in the Talaprastara-thread shortly to see if I have some other serial numbers correctly .

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 23 Jul 2018, 15:39

The obverse-nuber of the permutation (Anuloma-prastara) of ‘1-2-2-2’ of ‘7- units is ’22’ and the reverse-number (Viloma-prastrara) of the same is ‘43’ among the total of ‘64’ permutations.
Also there are easy methods ‘Nashta & Uddistha’ to get the form of the permutation from the serial-number and the serial-number from the form of the permutation respectively absolutely avoiding the process of the laborious process of permutation. amsharma

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 22 Aug 2018, 04:27

Vocalist wrote: ↑17 Jun 2006, 09:26 Phew! At least it's not called Sivapputhalam!! LOL

Speaking of which, how is the name of a thalam made? Random??

Ive always wondered if the Simhanandana tala is so called because it’s so grand and considered so difficult that anyone who attempts it successfully must be a simhaanandana, or Singakutti..

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 23 Aug 2018, 15:13

I've tried the Simhanandana and a few other complex tAlAs. I tell you, the Sharabhanandana is definitely the more difficult of the two. It's not the cycle length as much as it is the internal splitting that gives you the real headaches.

Sharabhanandana is the most difficult of the entire lot I've ever met so far (that includes the 5 chApus, the 72 'tAlAs', the sulAdi 35 talas (from the 7 tAlAs of alankarams), the navasandhi, and even the 108 tAlas, and virtually all chanda 'talas').

This forum is the only place where I've heard about longer talas of 384 units or 149 units. I wonder if @msakella has any information on their tAlAngas. Mathematically speaking there is no upper limit to this, but really, why would you want to make it even more difficult?

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 11 Oct 2018, 04:12

I have already furnished the required details of the longest Talas in the following link. amsharma
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6860&p=342029#p342029

sridharrajagopal · Post by **sridharrajagopal** » 24 Feb 2024, 06:50

I have followed this thread with fascination several years ago. I'm reading all this again now, and it is still fascinating, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.

One of the biggest mysteries to me was the "should be rendered" or "should not be rendered" statements. I think the comment below holds the key to the arguments put forth by dear msakella - "this should not be rendered at all as Tala but can be rendered as a rhythmical form or Chando-rupa like Tiruppugal rhythmical forms". It seems as though there is a key definition of what should be called a "Tala" . In my mind at least, a Tala is a cyclical musical measure of time.

Are Chapus considered Talas? Are Chandas Talas? If not, what are they? And what makes a Tala a Tala? The following of the Tala Dasa Pranas?

I am currently reading AM Sharmaji's "INDIAN GENIUS IN TALAPRASTARA" , and I'm starting to connect the dots more, regarding Prastara (combinatorics), and the notion of the serial number.

How do other rhythmic schemes like Chapus, Chandas, and even Hindustani Taals, etc fit in?

This is an interesting question for me personally, because I just updated my Carnatic metronome app, Talanome, and the latest version has been completely revamped. Here I've been trying to unify different rhythmic schemes, at least from a programming perspective (if not anything else, just to make my life easier coding), and so this discussion becomes quite relevant! And interesting, from a programming perspective, the beat patterns follow one of two patterns - either using Angas, or using numbers (and yes, fractional beats are allowed, if only to model Nadai/Gathi ), but not both!

Yours sincerely in fascination!
Sridhar

msakella wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 05:38 Dear brother-member, SrinathK,

Adi-tala having originally 8 Kriyas but, for convenience, rendered with additional in-between beats in the slow-tempo need not be defined as a pattern of 16-beats and the same applies to this ‘Sivapalathalam’ also.

In our musical history Sharabhanandana-tala is the famous rhythmical form brought out by our Shyama Shastry, the great. This rhythmical form does not abide by the rules and regulations of Taladashapranas and, thus, this should not be rendered at all as Tala but can be rendered as a rhythmical form or Chando-rupa like Tiruppugal rhythmical forms. Most unfortunately, this cannot be understood by the persons who do not have the full knowledge of Tala-prastara. All such rhythmical forms are just like a couple of horse and ass. amsharma