Trinity / Famous Vaggeyakaras vs. current composers

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 08 Oct 2010, 07:58

The trinity and many other vaggayekaras compositions are time tested and is being sung for many many years now Universally. This remains to be popular and will remain popular forever. The best part of this is none of them expected anything from singers and it was just the simple outpourings of their bakthi in a krithi form.
Why is that current composers compositions are not gaining as much popularity as the Trinity or some of the popular vageyakaras. Propbably I have answered the question myself!
I am told that some of the composers (though they compose out of passion) is taken by stage performers after it is marketed, canvassing by the composers/friends/relatives in order to make artists sing those compositions/popularize them.

Are these warranted?
Is it not that the kriti quality to stand out for that to be taken up by an artist and embellish it ?
How can composers become popular without resorting to the above ?
What is lacking in these compositions ?

anonymityatlast · Post by **anonymityatlast** » 08 Oct 2010, 09:33

Harimau! Where are you?!

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 08 Oct 2010, 09:46

Why do composers Compose ?

Somerset Maugham was once asked : Why do you write ?
And he replied : I dont write because I WANT to .
I write Because I HAVE to .

The mystery will stand explained to you fduddy when you realise that a composer is an artist too. And one of a higher merit.
The problem is that he walks the night before the day breaks .

I have had the rare privilege of watching Sankara Iyer from close quarters for over Four years .That man is very different from what one may know him through an occasional foray into his Desh Krithi or some other one.
Why Does the glass with the good stuff tip over ?
Because it has an effervesence to it . Something which the glass cannot contain within its boundaries .
Given the fact that it is the Krithi which on many occasions shapes the average mans identity of a raga ( in CM ) this work cannot stop . As long as we have great ragas which have not been explored fully . And great minds which spot the opportunities to tell the world something new.
But I agree in one sense that there must be a law prohibiting new compositions with the Words Paripahi , Jagajanani ,Saraseruhasana , Palaya , Devi , Poojithe , Sundaree , Mathe .....Names of all the Gods that have found their way into compositions already

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 08 Oct 2010, 09:52

And
That famous quote
The woods would be silent if only those birds sang. The ones that sang best .

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 08 Oct 2010, 11:29

MT
Agree to some extent to what you have stated. But my point is should such artist canvass his creation? Should it not be discovered and popularised. The composition should stand out and be of high quality for becoming popular!
Tanjore Sankara Iyer, ofcourse is a classic example that you have cited. DKJ discovered his compositions and popularised it. Spencer Venugopal is another one that comes to mind. Dr. Pinakapani, Voleti, MLV and DKJ popularised them.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Oct 2010, 15:11

Should it not be discovered and popularised.

How would that happen if the composer did not bring it to the attention of the singers?

If Nothing is ever tested, nothing will survive as time-tested.

If nothing new is ever tried, the traditions of the future will not exist.

The test is not always fair: many good things and good people will be lost to obscurity, but at least there is chance.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 08 Oct 2010, 17:03

Your post turned on a light in my head!

I immediately thought of OVK and SS.

And also, probably we have been a little too willing to let a bad composition from a good composer survive than to let a good composition from a bad composer survive.

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 08 Oct 2010, 17:59

fduddy,
One of the problems with the terminology , 'current composer' is the proliferation of lyric writers being called composers. This has resulted in the geyakara aspect of the word vaggeyakara taking a backseat and there is a quantitative increase in the carnatic composition stock with a great qualitative expense. While it is true that there is a large amount of subjectivity in evaluating compositions there are some basic requirements that a composition needs to meet including melodic originality or newness in musical idea, phrasal enrichment to the current stock. There is a huge amount of also-ran compositions in the world of carnatic music which offer nothing by way of originality of music.

As far as I am concerned, when I refer to a current/contemporary composer I prefer to restrict myself to the likes of those such as:
Tiger, Mudicondan, GNB, LGJ, Vinjamuri Varadaraja Iyengar, Rallapalli Anantakrishna Sarma,Balamurali,TRS, Prof.SRJ, Sankara Iyer, , TMT, TKG, Calcutta Krishnamoorthy, Suguna Purushottaman, Chitravina Ravikiran, + others.

Their composition certainly deserve a wider reach. I certainly welcome new compositions as long as they have a high degree of musical originality. (What exacly is the musical point of yet another "Muruga varuvai varam aruLvAi" type of lyric?) Even if you take other lyric writers it is the tunesmithing capabilities of
a Semmangudi, a TNS or a TK Rangachari that has made these what it is. So my point is for contemporary compositions to shine, musicians and gurus should take on the mantle of composing and enrich the present stock rather than leaving it to the fringe rasika and extended carnatic community.That is how it has always been in the history of carnatic music (Mysore Vasudevachar, Patnam, Poochi etc) and it will also pave the way for 'thinking musicians' rather than just 'singing musicians'.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 08 Oct 2010, 18:19

Beautifully said .

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 09 Oct 2010, 00:59

Vidya - not sure if your yardstick of 'geyakara' being a necessary component for being a great composer can be so strictly applied. By this measure, couldn't someone like Annamacharya get dropped from a great composers list?
I understand even several of Purandara Dasa kritis were set to music by vidwans like TKG.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Oct 2010, 02:30

Have grown used to this now, of course, but it used to cause me much confusion. Poets and lyricists write words, composers write music.

OK, the carnatic tradition uses the words differently, and it isn't going to change --- but it sure could be clearer!

(Of course, if I learnt to refer to these things in the traditional languages, it might be more straightforward: the onus there is on me)

vidya · Post by **vidya** » 09 Oct 2010, 04:41

ragam-talam,
The above yardstick and statements were in particular reference to contemporary composers. While history does not offer us an exact picture, historical evidences, internal evidences, presence of shishya vrtti etc indicate that Annamayya and Purandara Dasa were composers too.. My minimal expectation of a CONTEMPORARY composer (certainly not expecting a tick of each of Sharngadeva's list!) is that they be able to atleast notate their composition rather than just name a ragam-talam(no pun intended!) and a vague outline. Is that too much to ask?

[update]Please note that I am not retrofitting who or what a vaggeyakara was, for it is amply clear that many vaggeyakaras of the past were also fine teachers of music, had strong shishya paramparas and were quite capable of notating their compositions. Today or atleast since the early 1900's we are in a position to gather this information. If Subbarama Dikshita as early as 1904 could mention the fact that the lyrics of the mecabauli composition were Krishnaswami Ayyas and that it was he that tuned it why can't we have the same level of intellectual honesty in recording information?
The point I was trying to make was this:
Today there is little/no excuse for us to call someone a 'contemporary composer', if they write a few lines and name a ragam and a talam and then take their lyrics to a musician and ask them to set them to tune. There have also been instances where some musicians have refused to set lyrics to tune citing reasons such as a lack of basic musical prosody! I was trying to point out that it is this practice of lyric writers of such varying quality seeking the services of musicians in the last 50-60 years is one of the reasons why the word contemporary composer does not gather as much respect. I hope I have made myself amply clear.[/update]

tiruppugazh · Post by **tiruppugazh** » 09 Oct 2010, 07:48

In this context we should also look at the contribution of composers for bharatanatyam. Madurai T Sethuraman and his brother Srinivasan, Madurai N Krishnan and many others who have composed varnams, tillanas etc which are very popular with dancers. After all the Tanjore quartet were also dance composers primarily. Other 20th century 'vaggeyakaras' of merit include Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavatar, Mayuram Viswanatha Sastri, Mysore T Chowdiah, N Ch Krishnamacharyulu, Pattamadai Krishnan, Ceylon Veeramani Iyer, MM Dandapani Desikar, Spencer Venugopal and musicians like MDR,TVG and S Kalyanaraman

Tunesmiths are also composers in their own right. Otherwise we would not have got such fantastic pieces of literature set to music.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Oct 2010, 12:18

Vidya posted/replied that "My minimal expectation of a composer (certainly not expecting a tick of each of Sharngadeva's list!) is that they be able to atleast notate their composition rather than just name a ragam-talam(no pun intended!) and a vague outline" By this minimal expectation, unfortunately, many vaggeyakaras fail in this minimal test/requirement !

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 09 Oct 2010, 12:25

Someone famous once said
No New Wars should be started until all the books about the older wars are written .
Taking cue from that I am inclined to recommend

No new krithis should be composed until all the existing ones are sung and presented |(

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 09 Oct 2010, 13:26

I am inclined to say, no new wars should be started any way.

;(

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Oct 2010, 13:55

'thimma... no new food shall be bought until you have finished the last grain in the kitchen?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 09 Oct 2010, 14:00

No new krithis should be composed until all the existing ones are sung and presented

Hmm, we wouldn't have had kritis from the greats like HMB, MDR, P. Sivan, even our own Ramaraj, if such a restriction had been placed. Thank god it wasn't!

This is a bit like saying 'Don't write any new books until you have read all the books out there!'
How silly.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 09 Oct 2010, 14:30

RT
Take a look at how many of BMK / GNB / MDR / Ramraj's krithis are sung by someone who is not a disciple of them
BTW HMB and Papanasam Sivan come under the group Trinity / Famous Vaggeyakaras and not under the group Current Composers.
The question that is being debated is in todays context and not set off backwards by 50 years.

Anyway my post was in a jocular vein . I have very little understanding of these things 8)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Oct 2010, 16:45

Ah ha...

Ruthless! Going straight for the jocular!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 09 Oct 2010, 20:28

vidya wrote:The above yardstick and statements were in particular reference to contemporary composers.

And I would question that line you draw. Today's contemporary composers become tomorrow's 'composers of the past', yes?
Anyway, I won't press the point any further.

I came across the following interesting info at the wiki entry for Annamcharya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annamacharya
"According to legend, Annamacharya met up with Purandara Dasa and both of them composed music and lyrics. They met when Annamacharya had invited Purandara Dasa to join him in singing praise."

Do we know more about this?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Oct 2010, 22:29

Tunesmiths are also composers in their own right.

Quite true. ( though the word tunesmith does not sound heavy enough to me to do full justice to what that person does. but that is a different matter ).

The fact we have to state this obvious point indicates something interesting about CM.
The person who sets music to lyrics is usually not given proper credits. As if that is a secondary
activity for a music genre. In these circles it is well known that SSI set the music for Bhavayami Raghuramam
But no one credits SSI while announcing Bhavayami Raghuramam.
I would think AIR Tamil Stations would say 'Bhavayami Raghuramam, ragamalika, Swathi Thirunal iyatriyadu'
( or something like that ). They should say at least 'Bhavayami Raghuramam, ragamalika, Swathi Thirunal sAhityam,
Semmangui Srinivasa Iyer isai amaiththadu' ( ST's lyrics, SSI set it to music ).
This again applies to a lot of Annamacharya krithis for which Nedunoori and others had set music to.
Hope the music publishing industry at least provides the proper credits, though I do not have high hopes.
I have not checked any CDs yet.

Also, the music setting business is not just about raga and melody but it is also about the laya. In fact, the internal
layam is what distinguishes one song from another when both use the same stock of raga phrases. And it is the layam
that is the interface to the lyrics. The one who contributes 2 out of the 3 important elements of music is sidelined.

At least the film industry does it correctly and properly.

With respect to vaggeyakaras having the musical skills to set the tune for their lyrics, Bharathi is an interesting example.
His songs are sung often. In fact, if at all there are any songs for which people in Tamil Nadu pay attention to the lyrics
and even understand some of it, it is Bharathi's songs. Though Bharathi had musical knowledge, I hear that he indicated
the musical idiom to use for some of his songs. I think bhArathi struck the right balance. That is an excellent place to
leave things if your primary expertise is lyrics and poetry. Bharathi is not a vaggeyakara alright but that is OK, that is
not how people perceive him any way.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 10 Oct 2010, 11:54

Our tradition is built mostly on oral tradition-karna parampara. The sishya(s) of Vaggeyakaras used the notation technique and bestowed us with the written music. How much is original composer's music and how much is additions/deletions and improvisations, is always debatable. We have many vaggeyakaras who gave 'raga suchana' or raga indication only. Truly, we have performer's music than the original composer's music, due to oral tradition and freedom with abandon for interpretation (misinterpretation also, may be). Bani at least , gives identity to a recognized and well accepted version(s).
Let us not call the music composers, who have used the lyrics as tune smiths. With deep knowledge of Trinity compositions, mostly, practice and performance, Maestros have set the music. Without their contribution, unrewarded and recognized, these compositions would have remained as lyrics only.
Post trinity composers and many current composers compositions are being handled by Vidwans, unlike previous times. It is the Vidwath and sincere performances internalizing the 'original ' composer's ideas and ideals by the Vidwans and Vidushis, guarantees and gives the high quality in composition to the rasika.
I urge all my fellow rasikas dump the myths and idolization, which are motivated. Let us totally focus only the musical values, intrinsic quality and immense pleasure and bliss we derive in our musical experiences, unbiased, free and open. Unhesitatingly and timely recognize and reward Vidwans and Vidushis, who serve the cause of music and who give the rasikas, sublime music and total satisfaction.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 10 Oct 2010, 13:01

mankuthimma wrote:RT
Take a look at how many of BMK / GNB / MDR / Ramraj's krithis are sung by someone who is not a disciple of them

GNB kritis have gained wider currency now, esp. after his centenary year. Seem to be included by young vidwans from all schools. MDR is also featured quite regularly, especially his tillana. A few adventurous artistes like Hyd. Bros, TMK etc. sing BMK kritis now, sometimes even as the main piece. My feeling is that his kritis will be widely sung after his lifetime.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 10 Oct 2010, 13:17

Suresh
I do see that . and it is good . But is it enough . Where do the artists stand on this issue ?
Let us look at the rasika part for a while .
I cannot imagine someone more uncomfortable than a CM rasika who cannot identify a raga or the composer , when the concert is on .
See what happens to many of them when the song starts.They could be sitting on an ant hill.
Lakshmanji - why dont you develop an e-reader with all your stuff built into it for a price.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 14 Oct 2010, 11:55

Nick H wrote:Should it not be discovered and popularised.

How would that happen if the composer did not bring it to the attention of the singers?

If Nothing is ever tested, nothing will survive as time-tested.

If nothing new is ever tried, the traditions of the future will not exist.

The test is not always fair: many good things and good people will be lost to obscurity, but at least there is chance.[/quote]

You are spot on. However, please read my concerns/intent carefully.
In the name of enthusiam to showcase his/her composition (by canvassing or showing a carrot) which is of sub-obtimal quality, it will only dilute the music. CM as it is getting diluted by some of the current practioners in the name of popularizing and this will add on to that.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Oct 2010, 13:42

It is in the hands of the performing artists: they will sing what they choose to sing.

Of course, having said that, the ultimate authority is the audience.

It is for each one of us to support the music that we want to see and that we hope will live and thrive into the future. For myself, I do not have a problem with some of the music that I do not want to see being enjoyed by those that do want to see it. We can't stop it anyway. That is not to say that we should not allow ourselves the freedom to grumble about some of it

On the whole, I do not believe in this idea of dillution, or, rather, I do not believe that it applies to all of the music. If we have two bottles of a substance on a shelf, one a concentrate, and one which we continually dilute, the dilution of one does not affect the stock of the other. Perhaps it is an argument more applicable to some of the other forms that we may criticize in other threads, than to modern composition, but, even if one of those concerts is projected by a full-colour page of advertising, you and I are still going to be choosing from one of the programs in small print on page four, as are many other rasikas.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 14 Oct 2010, 13:50

You have the freedom to stick to your stand and I will stick to mine and God will save the music

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Oct 2010, 14:31

That's all right then

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Oct 2010, 16:09

Part of the problem lies in our placing values on 0-100 linear scale.
Place them in a hieracrcy.Like in Poker .

The smallest of Royal Flush can beat the highest of Straight flush
The smallest of Straight Flush can beat the highest of four-of-a-kind
The smallest four-of-a-kind can beat the highest of full-house
and so on until the one at the bottom of the hierarchy - High card.

Use this template to sift all the stuff and many things will stand explained .
It has always worked for me .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Oct 2010, 16:20

Food for thought there.

Another is the expectation of some sort of control, of an external definition of what is allowed and what is not.

Perhaps it is no accident that one of the greatest music festivals in the world (probably the biggest and greatest?) has no control, no co-ordination, no authority. Yet another side (let us not limit ourselves to two sides!) to that coin is that this is part of the reason it is, to most of the world, unknown. What tourist, however uninterested, could pass through Edinburgh, when the festival is on, and not be aware of it?

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Oct 2010, 16:34

one of the greatest music festivals in the world (probably the biggest and greatest?) has no control, no co-ordination, no authority

Make it two of the greatest .
To include the Chennai Festival . The December Food and Snacks Festival in Chennai, accompanied by some music .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Oct 2010, 16:37

Ahh, yes... I was forgetting the music!

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 14 Oct 2010, 18:39

BTW, 30% of the crowd come to listen to a live performance (DURING THE SEASON) with a single objective of filling their stomach in the eat outs at the auditoriums. The next 20% (I am little cautious here) come to exhibit their silk sarees/costumes/jewellery and socialize. Another 20% are music lovers of the likes of Aruna sairam. Real serious music fans will be the balance 30%.

I do not belong to any of the category mentioned above. My sabha is my little pc with tons and tons of the best music of SSI, MSS, DKP, GNB, MDR, Ramnads and the likes

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Oct 2010, 21:48

You should see the audience at London Hindustani concerts, where a big name is involved. You should see the flutter that goes through those saris as they realise that some Lord Desi-Somebody is about to pass along their line!

I have no idea about the percentages. I wonder if they are not, anyway, better judged from February to November, rather than in December and January. I'm not saying that the outcome would be a great deal better: I am convinced that a considerable percentage are just there to chat at the expense of somebody else's AC and to the accompaniment of a background noise. However, I can say that the "20% lovers of the likes of Aruna Sairam" will be at those concerts only, so it is just not a relevant statistic for the rest.

I wish you joy of your music collection. Joy is, after all, a major part of what it is about, but if you do not venture away from it, you will miss, just as a for instance, the experience that I had a week or two ago: that of being convinced that I had just seen the best yet from a young and serious artist, the feeling that they were embarking on a new level for them, and that, of course, they have decades ahead of them, even including years that I will not live to see!

That I have also seen, this week, a concert that I thought was cold, clinical, uninteresting, uninvolving and tedious, is another matter. I thought the artist's mannerisms and gestures made the whole thing impossible to watch, let alone listen to. I left after a submain in which both neraval and swara seemed utterly mechanical and lifeless. There seemed to be plenty of people there for whom the performance was valid music (I suppose, as they stayed to watch it!), and I do not want to associate such a damning review with an actual name as it was the first time I had ever seen this artist.

It's all musical experience

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 15 Oct 2010, 01:25

Another 20% are music lovers of the likes of Aruna sairam.

fduddy, you are so funny!! (I suspect there is a large overlap between this category and the jewelry/snacks groups!)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Oct 2010, 01:42

I'm afraid he is an optimist.

If 20% can fill the halls for her concerts, think how many halls the other 80% could fill!

(ok, ok, I know: 4.

But let's not be limited by maths here

)

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 15 Oct 2010, 06:49

fduddy wrote:My sabha is my little pc with tons and tons of the best music of SSI, MSS, DKP, GNB, MDR, Ramnads and the likes

fduddy, you must have noticed that all the people you have listed here are now not with us. I hope "and the likes" includes some who are still singing, even if they are 80 plus! I have the same problem as you (i.e. all my heroes are dead or 80 plus), so I've shaken myself out of it. But if you're happy, good for you.

About composers, I'm keen on hearing newer compositions, but it is difficult to pre-judge them and the only way I can see is to let a reasonable number of them flourish and then see which 'stand the test of time'. Applying vidya's test of notation and new musical value and mankuthimma's test of someone else singing them (i.e. students of some other guru, for example), I think we do have some new composers/compositions of note coming up from time to time. I wish there were some more and in particular, I wish I knew more of their work. I certainly can't discover them by listening only to Ramnad and the likes (which I do almost every day, by the way). I need to get out there and be a bit more open to it. Tough to do, sometimes.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Oct 2010, 07:20

Best way forward ?

For sometime I have been struggling with a bunch of 300-400 tracks which have eluded me , in putting a name to it.
The composer I mean.

I can put them up and solicit replies here . About the details .
You will be helping me in a larger project , about which I will give details later.
As we progress.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Oct 2010, 07:49

http://www.mediafire.com/?b6b67zb64fbi0rc

TRS singing an Ogirala composition here.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 15 Oct 2010, 12:30

narayan wrote:fduddy, you must have noticed that all the people you have listed here are now not with us. I hope "and the likes" includes some who are still singing, even if they are 80 plus! I have the same problem as you (i.e. all my heroes are dead or 80 plus), so I've shaken myself out of it. But if you're happy, good for you.

I have attempted but am not able to. There is something that is lacking in the current music. I am not able to explain / express. Lacklustre!
Of course there are a few younsters I love to listen to - Trichur Brothers, malladis, Pantula Rama.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 15 Oct 2010, 13:42

I have attempted but am not able to. There is something that is lacking in the current music.

I feel much the same about music of an entirely different culture: when I listen to it, it is seldom less than thirty years old --- but I have to admit not trying very hard to keep up with that culture, and friends tell me that, yes, of course there is good contemporary stuff.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 16 Oct 2010, 06:38

Of course there are a few younsters I love to listen to - Trichur Brothers, malladis, Pantula Rama.

You might like Sangeetha Sivakumar too, I think.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 28 Oct 2010, 13:04

First and Foremost, Rasikas should demand and support, the high quality of music, which gives recall experiences, remaining afresh and continue to give the pleasure of first experience, joy and total satisfaction and craving for more. Great Maestros have presented and continue to present the Trinity/famous vaggeyakaras compositions, which epitomizes these qualities, constantly and continuously contributing to the richness. The scope in the compositions are limitless with only the limitations of the manodharma and vidwath of the artist(s). Great majority of the compositions of current composers are heavily based and borrowed on the trinity compositions. Only few composers have imaginatively created different and meritorious compositions.
Rasikas who crave only for music they have derived great pleasure, focus their mind to catch musical thoughts and phrases which meets their craving. The bias, shuts out their mind to any afresh / anew experience(s). With bias, quality judgment is bound to be erroneous. They idolize the artist(s). Problem of 'Na bhooto Na bhavishyati'- Not earlier and Not in the future- mindset, denies them the pleasures of the live and present. They are not truly listening the live music. Rasikas standard statement or expressions are past masters and music the best, some of the present compositions/masters, tolerable and majority of the masters/vidwans-compositions, unworthy. Future times going to be disastrous, bleak and gloomy.

Other majority(more in the present times) of the rasikas prefers comfort zone of being among the majority rasikas (crowd/herd) of popular artist(s), enjoying the excitement of novel experience(s), current and trendy, easy to experience-with no demand on intellect and owning such experiences, as their own. Naturally, support is total and unconditional and undemanding ( for richer classical quality and experiences).

Can we not live in the present, with total attention, listen(truly and factually), experience the quality or lack of it, unconditioned, afresh and open ? Truly and honestly support all those artists striving to excel, whether they have attained popularity or not, by simply listening and in great numbers. Find out compositions of great merit(s) of current composers, suggest, request and demand expositions from artists, capable of renditions. Not limiting to the popular compositions of current composers only.

With focus on sadhana, manodharma, vidwath and performing abilities, many of the Vidwans/Vidushis, Maestros and Great Maestros of our present times do give immense listening experiences and pleasure. With better education, easy access to written and recorded music, intelligence, financial soundness/well being and will to experiment and take up new challenges and improved patronage, they are offering very good quality music, either comparable or occasionally, better quality of presentation techniques and music. With right and good support, many are capable of offering greater esthetically and sublime music.
For e.g. recently I was very happy to listen to young Vidwan S.K.Shekar, Lalgudi Mama's desciple and Ms.Padma Sugavanam, Smt Savithri Rajan's desciple, concerts telecast by SVBC in their Nada Neerajanam programme.

I urge all the Rasikas to become truly knowledgeable and unequivocally support the Tradition-celebration of Excellence in Classical Music.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 28 Oct 2010, 13:58

As I understand it, you are asking us to support the good, decry the bad, but, above all, not to be of a fixed mind set, but to be open to possibility, whether it is old or new?

I am sure my simplification fails to cover everything you said, but, as far as I have understood, I agree entirely.

It's all about good music, isn't it? Rather than all being about by whom, where, and when the music was composed?

The French say, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I think it is true. The innovations of today are the traditions of tomorrow: there is no cut-off point. The good music of today becomes the classics of tomorrow. The great performers of today become the revered names of tomorrow. But... I guess it is possible for the closed minds of today to stifle that process.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 29 Oct 2010, 11:18

Nick
The focus should be truly and totally on the quality of the musical ideas, contents, delivery/communication, reach and the ultimate total satisfaction, with value for recall pleasure with the same intensity of the first experience, to attain the excellence. In achieving the objective, it is imperative that both the giver(s) and taker(s) should be afresh, anew and alive to the moments of spontaneity and creativity, to partake the pleasure. This demands the discipline and strength of unconditioned mind for observation, perception and realization, at its best.
The idolatry, stifles and acts as barriers to both the performer(s) and rasika(s). Appreciation and enjoyment is necessarily, conditional shutting out creativity, improvement and progress towards achievement of excellence. Right support and patronage for the meritorious, is not guaranteed. Bias and conditioned minded support and the results of success of very few, may not be deserving, is identified as Yogam or luck. Artists of great merit, languish without any recognition and rewards. Premium on on merit, is lost. Quality suffers and is lost. Degeneration and dissatisfaction sets in until such time, the reversal takes place and remedial actions are taken with purpose and sincerity.

Simplicity in communication, expression and statement is good, for the headlines, in particular. But for the sake of lucidity and clarity, we have to take recourse to more words/sentences

I do not agree with the adage/statement that changes in the present is more of the same of the past. Change is a clear and definite departure from previous existence/status and is different, even though it may contain the elements of the past. When we feel the change is more of the same, we are still very much in the past, missing out the difference.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Oct 2010, 12:14

The meaning is that, although things appear to change, they do not really.

The last time I suggested that, 100 years ago, there must have been mediocre performers and mediocre composers, but, simply, they are not remembered, I got jumped on by those who think this is some sort of sacrilegious impossibility --- but, how much have human beings really changed, and is it possible that they were so different in the past. Logic (well, mine at least: others' obviously differs

) tells me that if there is bad, middling and good today, there will be bad, middling and good tomorrow, and there must have been bad, middling and good 50, 150, 1,050 years ago. Of course, lifestyles have changed, and perhaps accomplishments were possible among those who entered the gurukula system as children and never thought of anything but music and performing, and were certainly not interrupted by technical degrees and careers.

Just... I do not believe in either glorifying the past or despairing for the future.

Your posts are very interesting, and a vital aspect is that you place responsibility in the hands of the audience as well as the performers.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 04 Nov 2010, 11:56

Nick.H
Thanks for compliment.
On changes, Primal instincts, needs and behavior, largely remain same. The cultivated tastes, needs and behavior changes and cyclical, in nature. Good, mediocre and bad/ugly statements are subjective and changes, inevitable. But, Excellence is not subject to changes.

I find my post has not received the notice of any other fellow rasika(s). I consider this as one of the vital requirement for the progress and would be happy read replies from other fellow rasikas.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 04 Nov 2010, 13:38

I find my post has not received the notice of any other fellow rasika(s). I consider this as one of the vital requirement for the progress and would be happy read replies from other fellow rasikas.

No No . Your posts are definitely read . Having said this much , one must appreciate the tender nature of the original question .
And the complex nature of any answers that may be forthcoming .
Something on the lines of :
What exactly is the central activity - the composing part or the delivery part ?
Isn't there a unfair bias favouring what existed before at the cost of what unfolds today ?
If you were born on Mars tomorrow and had a set compositions both from the past and a small cuckoo composing by your side, how good would you be in assessing them ?
Does a familiarity with the delivery of the song tempt the singer to think that he too can compose ?
Has there been a systematic study of where the composers came from ( in terms of thought processes ) and what was the impact that can be directly attributed to them ?
Is the method of simply holding on to the theory - The Best was before us - a matter of self-aggrandisement ?
A Tarzan kind of chest beating - except that this Tarzan has never had a real wild experience 8)
In the process of such comparisons , are we factoring the enormous changes that we see around us in society ?
Is life lived backwards ?

And lastly , just because I can like and appreciate a song does it entitle me to have a view on it ?
Is there not a minimum set of criteria required of me to make such a judgement ?

It is indeed a subject similar to the unravelling of a puzzle where we are not sure if all the pieces around us belong to this same puzzle . We just cannot be sure of the outcome .
So this is indeed a mysterious question .
A question worthy of being asked by one Composer to another .
Worthy of being answered only by a performer - by performing it .
Any attempt to give it an iron clad answer would tempt the lay rasika to shut his lips even tighter , for fear of either uttering a blashpemy , or showing the length of path , he is yet to travel.

I have in a short span of three decades ,enjoyed my interactions with the real guys who matter in this subject . And they are the student / musicians who are learning , practising and constantly moving up the value chain .

It is those reactions which I shall be eagerly looking forward to here

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Nov 2010, 22:31

Thimma: Coincidentally, yesterday at lunch with my boss, our conversation turned into creativity. He is a big fan of Chuck Close, the portrait painter and he mentioned about Close's ideas on creativity and his life story. The conversation was mostly on the mechanical aspects of how he paints but I wondered about where the aesthetic aspects come from. It was along similar things that you talk about above regarding the process of composing. And there was also an intriguing aspect about Close that he has difficulties with facial recognition but faces and people is what he paints!

After I came home, I tracked down an interview he did with Charlie Rose.. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9031459011#

Chuck Close says a lot of things interesting. It is of course one person's personal truths and may or may not translate to others.

Here are some snippets..

Example: At 16:20

"Everything grows out of work, I am not sitting around dreaming up a great art idea (inspiration is for amateurs....)
Everything happens in the process of making art
Every subsequent idea...everything you do kicks open a door and if you just go through that door
you find yourself someplace you had not anticipated"

At around 26:45

I am an orchestrator of experiences for the viewer

Painting is really a performing art in a sense except no one watches us perform
The painting is the residue of the dance ritual that took place in the studio.
When the viewer is in the presence of this painting, you can sense what the artist
was doing, get in sync with it, understand it and dance along with it

------------
I think a lot of this is relevant to compositions as well. The added dimension here is that we have
artists helping us get in sync with the composer, understand the composer and dance along to the
ideas in the composers' mind at the time of creation.