Are Cleveland Aradhana competetions rigged?

[rigveda]

Last week I was traveling in California and stayed with a friend. His son, an aspiring mridangist, had a class that evening. The class was conducted by a local mridangist who teaches a bunch of students. All the students collect in my friend’s house and take their lessons. I observed the whole session and at the end told the students that they should” apply “ to Cleveland Aradhana competitions. Remember, these days you have to “apply” with a “non refundable fee” and so on! In any case, all the students in unison said ”uncle Cleveland competitions are rigged”.
This despair among the students made me wonder and think as to the veracity in their frustration. If one were to look at the award winners, most are students of musicians from India who also act as “judges”. This results in more than one first and second prizes being given, negating the very spirit of competition? In fact, my friend even told me that a senior vidwan almost begged him to hand over his son to this vidwan to be taught over Skype hinting at his influence in Cleveland! My friend said he had no intentions of changing the teacher.
Having been a judge of several collegiate fellowship competitions in the US and India, I can speak with a wealth of experience. Some level of arbitrariness is unavoidable, but the way it is done in Cleveland, the burden is on them to convince that process is not rigged.
Here are some possible initial steps that can be taken.
(1) Several panels of judges must be created each with a specific task of dealing with a certain category (age and item). Junior and sub-junior levels need only a three member team. Senior categories should have five.
(2) The judges must be formally designated so and the current practice of asking some musicians loitering around in the lobby to go inside and act as a judge to relieve a tiring judge inside is unprofessional.
(3) The judges must be specifically compensated for this job. Even 50$ (2500rupees) is a decent amount for a musician from India.
(4) The judges should not sit next to each other. The judges should not sit on the front row either. This often intimidates the participants, especially the young kids. In fact the participants need not and should not even know who the judges are. This is a very embarrassing idea. I have heard one judge telling the others “he is my student. I taught him/her this stuff only last week, see how well he/she is reproducing it”. And when this judge happens to be a very senior musician, the others are put in an odd corner. Judges should therefore stay from each other during the process of judging and give their final evaluation (in the form of a numerical value, say 1 to 5) to a central committee that will only add up the numbers. In other words no judge needs to know what the other judge assigned to a certain participant. Also judges should not enter their names in the evaluation form. The central committee need not know who graded how. Their role is only in adding up the final scores.
(5) If a certain participant happens to be the student of one of the judges, that judge should not evaluate the participant.
(6) Now the most important aspect. No participant should come to the stage and announce the teacher’s name. It is irrelevant. That immediately gets the bias ball rolling. More often than not the teacher is one of the judges sitting on the front row and also happens to be a senior vidwan. The junior judges immediately assume this particular participant should get an award. That is how we have sometime three first prizes and four second prizes. If a participant announces the name of the teacher before the competition, he/she should be disqualified on the spot. Of course they should be informed before hand the expectations as participants. Similarly if any judge asks for information on the participants’ teacher or back ground before the final evaluation has been handed over, he/she should be disqualified too.
(7) There should be serious negative numerals assigned for breaches such as over stepping the time limit
(8) All the participants should be asked to refrain from lobbying at the Comfort Inn lobby or elsewhere, trying to find out who the judges are and trying to approach them before the competition. If any judge spots such activities, he/she should be empowered to disqualify the participant.
Probably mechanism of some sort along these lines exists and what is needed is fine tuning and determined implementation of the rules and regulations. I welcome a healthy discussion and I am willing to offer whatever help I can, subject to time constraints, to the organizers.
[email protected]

[mri_fan]

They used to fair maybe 5-15 years ago. Now that so many of the same faces come every year, their students get promoted. Look at whose playing this year in concerts and whose left out to see the truth. Rohan and Rajna are left off the schedule this year in favor of 13-15 year old students of Vaidyanathan and Raja Rao. Something is wrong with that.

[VK RAMAN]

Seems like a level headed post. Organizers and partcipants should comment

[Enraged]

Of course the competitions are rigged! They are rigged in favor of the most talented performer.

Remember, these days you have to “apply” with a “non refundable fee” and so on!

Here is a link to a list of classical music competitions around the world. Go see how many of them charge a non-refundable application fee before you shoot your mouth off about how it is unfair to levy these fees. Go whine to the Fischoff National Chamber Music Competition about their fees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cl ... mpetitions

Believe me, parents who spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on their children's musical education will not begrudge an organization fifty bucks for an entry fee.

Some level of arbitrariness is unavoidable, but the way it is done in Cleveland, the burden is on them to convince that process is not rigged.

Actually, the proof is in the number of applications received. It goes up every year - in fact, the number of application is almost unmanageable. The competitions are held concurrently because there are not enough hours in the week of the festival to hold them consecutively. Ultimately, people are not idiots. If there was the slightest hint of favoritism or a rigged competition, people will stop competing. As the years go by, the competition gets stronger with more and more applicants.

(1) Several panels of judges must be created each with a specific task of dealing with a certain category (age and item). Junior and sub-junior levels need only a three member team. Senior categories should have five.

There ARE several panels, each dealing with a specific category and the size of the panels in place is dependent on the category. Thanks for suggesting something that's already done.

(2) The judges must be formally designated so and the current practice of asking some musicians loitering around in the lobby to go inside and act as a judge to relieve a tiring judge inside is unprofessional.

Please don't make stuff up. Judges do rotate in and out of some panels and they take a break in the lobby. Nobody is accosting random artists in the lobby and asking them to judge a competition. The panels are decided when the schedule is decided.

(3) The judges must be specifically compensated for this job. Even 50$ (2500rupees) is a decent amount for a musician from India.

Says who? Compensation doesn't affect the fairness of the judges. Besides, who appointed you to the compensation board to decide if and how much judges should be paid?

(4) The judges should not sit next to each other. The judges should not sit on the front row either. This often intimidates the participants, especially the young kids. In fact the participants need not and should not even know who the judges are.

Why should the judges not confer with each other? I think a healthy discussion among the judges regarding the talents of a contestant leads to better and more consistent judging. Not sit in the front row? You must be insane when you insist that your precious little snowflakes should not be "intimidated". Public performance is a daunting task and contestants SHOULD be judged on how well they perform under pressure.

Points (5) and (6) insinuate that the judges are biased and display favoritism. First off, let's be clear about who the judges are - they are senior vidwans/vidushis who are among the top artists in their respective fields. As a volunteer, I have seen them go through the judging process with great integrity and a tremendous sense of responsibility towards the young competitors. It is impossible to corrupt people who have the best interests of these children in their hearts. And it is unfair to accuse these judges who volunteer their time and effort of dishonesty.

Point (7) is already in place - another fine suggestion to do something that is already done. Occasionally a judge will ask contestant to elaborate or repeat a phrase to help understand that contestant's abilities.

(8) All the participants should be asked to refrain from lobbying at the Comfort Inn lobby or elsewhere, trying to find out who the judges are and trying to approach them before the competition. If any judge spots such activities, he/she should be empowered to disqualify the participant.

Nobody needs to try and find out the judges identities through any nefarious means - just go ask a volunteer. Volunteers will cheerfully share that information because we know that never in the history of this competition has any contestant ever lobbied a judge for favorable reviews. The contestants enter because they want to compete, not cheat. And the judges reward the best of the best. The kids don't whine and the judges praise all the entrants - the only people who complain are disgruntled parents.

Finally, I wouldn't volunteer my time to support a rigged competition. The kids who told you that the competitions are rigged are liars. If you want proof, come volunteer this year and you can observe the competitions first-hand and be involved in every aspect of the competition.

[Nick H]

The people who scream are far too busy doing irreparable damage to the reputations and careers of their offspring to have time to actually work.

[mri_fan]

If there was the slightest hint of favoritism or a rigged competition, people will stop competing

- A lot of people have stopped competing for this very same reason, but there are always new students of music and parents willing to try their hand.


There ARE several panels, each dealing with a specific category and the size of the panels in place is dependent on the category. Thanks for suggesting something that's already done.

- There is no transparency to the general public.

Besides, who appointed you to the compensation board to decide if and how much judges should be paid?

- Musicians who have been judges have been complaining to me about this for years. They think it's disrespectful that they aren't even given a token sum for the 6-8 hours they put in judging.

Points (5) and (6) insinuate that the judges are biased and display favoritism. First off, let's be clear about who the judges are - they are senior vidwans/vidushis who are among the top artists in their respective fields. As a volunteer, I have seen them go through the judging process with great integrity and a tremendous sense of responsibility towards the young competitors. It is impossible to corrupt people who have the best interests of these children in their hearts. And it is unfair to accuse these judges who volunteer their time and effort of dishonesty.

- What you say does not line up with what actually happens. Sorry. Why doesn't Sanjay come/judge anymore?

never in the history of this competition has any contestant ever lobbied a judge for favorable reviews.
-Really though, as one volunteer, how would you claim to know everything that's ever going on. Either your omnipotent, or you're biased. I think the latter.

[kalyani_ragam]

enraged rages once in a year when cleveland is bashed.
Enraged should be an avatar of one of the organising members ????

[Nick H]

We should be far more concerned about the bashers who rush in every year.

Hey, maybe they are omnipotent! (or omnipresent?)




Or omnibiased.

[Enraged]

enraged rages once in a year when cleveland is bashed.
Enraged should be an avatar of one of the organising members ????

I'm not one of the committee members. I've been volunteering for the last 6 years. And yes, I am here to defend the well intentioned, honest and much-maligned organizers from slimy weasels who post mean spirited, dishonest insinuations.

I chose this handle because I get extremely angry when jackasses like sbcricketfan, jeevanraju, sadananthan et al call my friends cheats and liars. We work very hard, beg our bosses for vacation, spend our time, efforts and money on this festival. And we do it all for your kids. We take our responsibilities seriously. We do the very best we can with the extraordinarily limited resources we have. And we do it with honesty and integrity.

If you really want to criticize us, do it on the basis of what you like or dislike about the festival operations. Don't accuse me or my friends of being dishonest or doing back-door deals. Anybody who maligns our intentions is either ill-informed or just plain mean.

[VK RAMAN]

This subject is an opportunity for every one to remain anonimous and sign up psuedonimous!

[vasanthakokilam]

Either your omnipotent, or you're biased. I think the latter.

Enraged has described what his 'bias' is. mri_fan, what is your bias in this debate? Just curious to understand the issue better...

[cmlover]

Folks
We are not against decent discussions. Nor do we take sides or endorse on behalf of the Forum Admin and mods.
But don't mention names to prevent legal issues.
Watch your language
Above all don't abuse your anonymity for mud slinging!
We reserve the right to edit your offensive posts...

[smala]

enraged rages once in a year when cleveland is bashed.
Enraged should be an avatar of one of the organising members ????

Hmmm...says kalyani_ragam who joined Dec 23, 2010. "...rages once a year...you should know.

In a related thread, you said :
: " 'Enraged" - seem to be a new AVATAR of an existing member !!!!!
worth a check on duplicate ids?"

Welcome back, ragam-talam.

Duplicate or multiple ids, welcome to the ship of fools. "Worth a check on duplicate ids?" A Pandora's box might open - what's with the mods lately?

[Enraged]

- A lot of people have stopped competing for this very same reason, but there are always new students of music and parents willing to try their hand.

And there are also students who compete year after year even though they don't win.

- There is no transparency to the general public.

Who cares about the general public? We owe the contestants a fair and impartial competition. The competition owes nothing to the general public.

- Musicians who have been judges have been complaining to me about this for years. They think it's disrespectful that they aren't even given a token sum for the 6-8 hours they put in judging.

Well, they haven't complained to the committee. But since they have complained to you, perhaps you can solve this problem. Why don't you donate the "token sum" that you feel is appropriate to pay the judges?

- What you say does not line up with what actually happens. Sorry. Why doesn't Sanjay come/judge anymore?

You should ask Sanjay. As a relatively new volunteer, artists don't complain to me about how they are not compensated for judging or why they choose not to come to the festival. But they seem to complain to you a lot. So why don't you spin a story about Sanjay? It's not enough to bad-mouth organizations. You may as well do it to artists too.

-Really though, as one volunteer, how would you claim to know everything that's ever going on. Either your omnipotent, or you're biased. I think the latter.

I state my experiences. I am biased in favor of the Cleveland Festival. I don't know everything that's going on. But at least I have faith in my fellow man. I trust that they operate with good intentions. I believe that people who support the arts do it for the sake of the art. And if I see something that can be changed for the better, I try to help make the change before I post sleazy insinuations on public fora.

[mohan]

Just noticed that the competition winners are now offered a concert during the December Music Season at the Music Academy, Chennai and Shanmughananda Sabha, Mumbai. Dance competition winners to get a performance at Sri Krishna Gana Sabha.
See
http://www.aradhana.org/blog/2011/01/ex ... rizes.html

[raghukumar]

This entire thread is quite comedic. The Cleveland Aradhana has done far more to help promote Carnatic Music than possibly any other organization in the world. It's obvious who the complainers are- parents of students, or students themselves, who failed to win a competition. Imagine American Idol and how many complaints they probably get annually from contestants who felt that Simon Cowell was too harsh on them

Instead of b******* on rasikas.org, why don't you go out and do something productive and perhaps start your OWN carnatic music competition, while at the same time scheduling free concerts for 10 days by the top ranking Carnatic Music musicians globally, while at the same time figuring out a magical way to NOT get complaints from students and parents of students who fail to win the competition?

Click here to hear my interview with Sri. VV "Cleveland" Sundaram Sir on the Aradhana, and you tell me how you can't help but admire such an individual who has done so, so much for Carnatic Music

[rigveda]

[

Remember, these days you have to “apply” with a “non refundable fee” and so on!

Here is a link to a list of classical music competitions around the world. Go see how many of them charge a non-refundable application fee before you shoot your mouth off about how it is unfair to levy these fees. Go whine to the Fischoff National Chamber Music Competition about their fees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cl ... mpetitions
I appreciate and understand enraged's loyality to Cleveland Aradhana. But that should not disallow others from expressing their views. Enraged asks me to "whine" at the above organizers about the fee. I retract my statement. If Cleveland Aradhana stands up to the several agencies mentioned in the above site, they have the right to charge even a higher application fee. The site that enraged asked me to "whine" at also says how they "judge" the participants. The following is an exact quote:
• "Identifying conflict of interest issues is very important to the integrity of the Competition. During all Competition rounds, ensembles perform anonymously, identified to the jury only by number. Conflicts of interest between jurors and ensembles or any individuals within an ensemble are carefully addressed and handled appropriately"
I am told this is a standard practice in all Western Music Competitions. If a judge is sitting on the front row and his/her student is a participant, it is conflict of interest. As simple as that. Given our reverence for old age, if the judge is "a seniior vidwan", the situation is complicated.
In reply to one of the posters, enraged says" no muscians have complained to us about compensation for judging"
He/she must be kidding. Do you expect these muscians to complain to the "supremo" and if they did that will be the last they will be seen in Cleveland! It is for the Committee to realize this extra burden on them and compensate. Compensation will also want them to do an honest job.
Enraged, again responds to the poster" if you want you compensate them for their job". This is uncalled for. The same argument can be extended to the Aradhana Committee. "if they want to run the show the way the want, let them do so. But don't ask the public to donate and collect money from all corners".
The main thing is the judges are as human as you and me. There is no need to elevate them to a level of infalliability. If a senior vidwan can try hard to swith a student to himself from the current teacher just to make a few bucks, it proves my point. There is nothing wrong with that. The lack of understanding is with people like enraged who are single tracked.

[kssr]

Cleveland definitely is doing immense service to CM. Like in the case of all large activities there are bound to be areas with scope for improvement. The word "rigged" is, IMO, misplaced. It suggests that the winners are selected even before the competition starts. That, I am sure is not true. Otherwise most of the suggestions given by the original post to improve transparency, etc., are to be taken in the right spirit and attempts to be made to improve the situation. Getting ENRAGED probably is a sign of weakness not strength.

[Nick H]

This entire thread is quite comedic. The Cleveland Aradhana has done far more to help promote Carnatic Music than possibly any other organization in the world. It's obvious who the complainers are- parents of students, or students themselves, who failed to win a competition. Imagine American Idol and how many complaints they probably get annually from contestants who felt that Simon Cowell was too harsh on them

Yes, it is quite funny, in a horrible sort of way

Instead of b******* on rasikas.org, why don't you go out and do something productive and perhaps start your OWN carnatic music competition, while at the same time scheduling free concerts for 10 days by the top ranking Carnatic Music musicians globally, while at the same time figuring out a magical way to NOT get complaints from students and parents of students who fail to win the competition?

Oh, please... the children must be embarrassed enough already by the parents!

Click here to hear my interview with Sri. VV "Cleveland" Sundaram Sir on the Aradhana, and you tell me how you can't help but admire such an individual who has done so, so much for Carnatic Music

Simply, a gentle man with a powerful passion. I'm sure that he, VKV, and all, have the greatest respect of the vast majority. Just... there are the usual suspects who kick up this row every year. There are several "children" who would be well advised to leave home as soon as possible!

[harimau]

I remember a year ago when Jaya-TV (the third rate TV channel from Chennai ) first presented the Carnatic Idol competition.

Neyveli Santhanagopalan was among the judges. One of the contestant was named Sriranjani Santhanagopalan and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the two are related. In this specific case, they are father and daughter.

While Sri Santhanagopalan recused himself from judging his daughter, the other judges posed questions to the panel of contestants and judged the responses.

If we go by the insinuations on this board, one would expect that Sri Sasikiran and Smt Gayathri Venkataraghavan (the other judges) would have found a way to give Sriranjani the first prize.

Sriranjani didn't come in first; Bharath Sundar did.

Sriranjani didn't come in second; Abhilash did.

I am not sure whether Sriranjani came in third or didn't even show but that doesn't matter as the CD contracts and concert opportunities and overseas tours were offered only to the first and second prize winner.

And you brainless idiots are still spinning your conspiracy theories and raising questions of ethics.

Peddle that stuff elsewhere; nobody is buying it here.

[MDRFan]

Well, I live in California and I am surprised to learn that California music students do not want to participate in Cleveland Music competition. Year after year, close to 60 children from California participate in cleveland competition. To my knowledge, couple of years back thee were 30 plus winners from California. In this year's list I can see a few children from California performing 1 hour concert in Cleveland becasue they are amongst last year competition winners. I wonder what the author was smoking when he/ she wrote the long winded essay on rigged cleveland competition and that California music students do not want to particiapte.
One suggestion made is to have a panel of pre-selected judges for each category instead of asking "loitering musician" to judge competition. If this alleged practice of "loitering musician" judging competition is true, does it not eliminate "bias" in the decision? Or, do musicians "loiter" strategically in front of various rooms where competitions are held so that they can judge and vote for their students when one of those in the panel becomes tired..Good strategy, ofcourse! Such strategic moves are conjured up only by those who are hallucinating....So, what was the author smoking?
Also, the author claims $50 (Rs.2500) should be a good remuneration for a musician from India. Which age this person is living in? I am sure this person has absolutely no connection with carnatic music. Alright, let us go with $50. There are close to 60 competitions. This great personality should have donated $3000 towards this fee in stead of spinning stories of his California travel. Please put the money where the mouth is or be a part of this electirying atmosphere in cleveland during the Good Friday weekend and learn first hand what happens in this event in stead of writing absurdities..

[Nick H]

It has to be understood that every music competition in the world is rigged --- in they eyes of those (or their parents, more like) who do not win!

I've listened to those with absolute conviction that one UK contest is rigged. A number of people gave different, but equally certain, reasons --- and they flatly contradicted each other!

[chalanata]

I agree with rigveda when I ponder over the competitions back home; I can quote several examples then again it will open another pandora's box. One redeeming factor however may be that this has been happening for a very very long time.

[cmlover]

While it is interesting to watch this 'back and forth' Cleveland 'bashiing' which occurs annually, I wonder whether it serves any useful purpose! VKV has requested time and again for suggestions to imporve the Program and Competitions and nothing concrete has materialized so far. He even offered to meet the disgruntled folks at Cleveland and nobody surfaced. In NA the general procedure when 'fraud' (rigging?) is detected is to complain to the Consumer Protection Agency (CPA) or file a suit (injunction?) at the Court of Law. To my knowledge there are no court cases pending against the CAC (VKV can confirm). There is universal appreciation and support for the annual Cleveland Festival among the global community of CM lovers who are very grateful to Jaya TV for bringing them into the comforts of each household. We don't get to see any of the Competitions to pass any judgements form our Rasika Communty. Perhaps attempt can be made to televise the competitions like the popular Carnatic Idol Program that will be a good way of promoting CM among the NA teens and will be welcomed by all parents who are trying to motivate their kids towards CM. Perhaps a subscriber channel can take it up (with the consent of CAC) to make it commercially feasible. Perhaps the commercial channel ATN (of Toronto) may be interested. In that context there can be a meaningful debate on the pros and cons of the organization and judging of the competition. Not otherwise..

[cacm]

Dear cmlover,
What Jaya TV shows is CHOSEN by them solely & the aradana committee as no desire or say in it. Of course this is the only TV Channel that has seen fit to show at least parts of the Festival. I am sure other members of the committee will be very receptive towards televising the competitions etc- I am speaking for JUST MYSELF HERE- but to my knowledge no one has approached us or shown any interest in this area....There are no court cases pending! VKV

[Enraged]

I'd like to point out that the while the mudslingers continue to spew their filthy vitriol, not a single person on the thread has taken up my suggestion to volunteer at the festival. Rigveda and mri_fan, you have the time and energy to post your bilious rants here, but you can't spend your time volunteering at the festival. What's the matter? Are you scared of being proved wrong? I'd take you misanthropes seriously if only I could convince myself that you aren't the same person.

Here's a comment from a fellow volunteer - "Getting involved in these threads is like leaping into a puddle of crap to wrestle with a pig. You come out stinking while the pig has had a good time."

Oink-oink, mri_fan/rigveda/sadananthan/jeevanraju/sbcricketfan.

[venkatakailasam]

MODs:

Is this all necessary for our forum? I am not clear in what way we are a party? Freedom is necessary. but, to what extent.

I hope you can take some action .

venkatakailasam

[Sam Swaminathan]

Can we exercise a bit of moderation here? Enraged getting enraged on all unfounded criticism of the Aradhana festival is one thing. But for him/her to go the extent in post 26, in my opinion, is not necessary. I would suggest to Enraged to withdraw the latest post.

[Enraged]

Sam,

When rigveda claims to quote statements like "Uncle cleveland competitions are rigged", why can't I quote my fellow volunteers?

But I do understand what you're saying. I have personally made the tone of this thread far more acrimonious than it was previously. I did it consciously and intentionally to demonstrate that accusations of dishonesty are just as hurtful as calling someone a pig.

I stand by the post and I will not withdraw it. If jeevanraju/mri_fan/sadananthan/muthukumaran/sbcricketfan feels hurt, then it is appropriate given how grievously he wounds organizers and volunteers with his outlandish accusations of dishonesty and money-grubbing favoritism.

[cmlover]

enraged
It appears you are going too far! This will escalate and we will be forced to lock the thread. Name calling does not achieve anything. We request both sides to be rational and present their legitimate views and points in a civilized manner.

Thank you...

[mri_fan]

I'd like to point out that the while the mudslingers continue to spew their filthy vitriol, not a single person on the thread has taken up my suggestion to volunteer at the festival. Rigveda and mri_fan, you have the time and energy to post your bilious rants here, but you can't spend your time volunteering at the festival. What's the matter? Are you scared of being proved wrong? I'd take you misanthropes seriously if only I could convince myself that you aren't the same person.

Here's a comment from a fellow volunteer - "Getting involved in these threads is like leaping into a puddle of crap to wrestle with a pig. You come out stinking while the pig has had a good time."

Oink-oink, mri_fan/rigveda/sadananthan/jeevanraju/sbcricketfan.

We get it. You work hard. My job and family doesn't allow me the opportunity to put in the effort that you do. Does that mean I can't comment? I've attended the Aradhana for most of the past 20 years, and I think that it's the greatest and most influential music festival probably outside of India. It's spawned careers and inspired hundreds of students in this country. But it's not immune to criticism, especially when I've heard a few recurring themes from musicians/parents/children. Like it or not, the Aradhana has responsibility to the greater public because of the important role it plays in this country in promoting this art. I don't doubt that the organizers have pure intentions, but there are problems, and we should be able to talk about them.

The anonymity of the internet is the main reason why any of these gripes can even begin to be discussed, so I'm not surprised no one showed up in person last year. I have WAY too much to lose by actually talking to people in person and revealing who I am.

[cmlover]

Thanks VKV
for the clarification. Is there any objection (or need to seek permissions) to attendees videoing the comretition proceedings and posting them on Youtube? If there are any problems then there can be an objective discussion. Of course there is the need for consent from the participant (or his/her guardian) for posting in the public domain. Does CAC (or can CAC) obtain blanket permission for such postings? I have previously seen individual posters posting clips (of theirs) on the You tube. Of course posting somebody else's and analyzing critically can create a huge (legal) problem. On the otherhand folks are open to attend and observe the proceedings freely and opening the judging to the wider public viewing will be educational. What are your (as well as CAC) views on the topic...

[Nick H]

Enraged's post #26 seems quite mild to me, and I rather enjoy his colleague's quote, which seems very apt.

One "side" can sling mud, but the other has to be all pleasant?

I wouldn't mind seeing all these threads just deleted. Strangled at birth. But then there would be cries fro freedom of speech, and I guess they'd be justified.

The only other thing is to remind ourselves that none of these threads would get beyond one or two posts if people did not respond --- but that's something I've never been very good at!

[Sam Swaminathan]

I had written a few lines about this ongoing discussion. But as an after thought I decided to remove it as I feel that those who throw stones at glass houses are probably living in glass houses themselves and would realise it sooner than later. It is far too easy to criticise and make judgements. You can know the pain only when you actually put in the efforts. I can keep shouting till the cows get home, but these people will come back once again next year and throw the same crap on the very same people who are trying their best to advance this art in NA. I think I have said enough.

[smala]

dumb question:

what's an m_r_i fan ? expand the acronym, somebody.

Now an N-R-I fan, I can understand.

[rigveda]

It is "enraged" who is acting in the most weird fashion trying to mudsling by citing various posters as though they are all one. May be some are, but I have nothing to do with any. All I did was to narrate an experience I had and pose some questions and suggestions, asking for a healthy discussion. All my suggestions can be ignored, I don't care. But enraged tried to bully me by citing some websites on western calssical music competetions and how they all charge hefty entarnce fees. But when I poined out the way their judges are expected to judge the contestents, based on the same website, enraged prefered to igonre it. Let us not be ostritches. Cleveland is doing a bunch of things worth applauding and there is room for improvement in many areas. It will only make them big by accepting it. Looking at the clamoring to close this discussion, I can also suspect that enraged is the same person as the others with multiple ids trying to brow beat those who do not agree with him/her. Rasikas.org can certainly expect deceny in posting by not allowing names to be drwan into the open, but if they take the side of one section of the posters, they stoop to the levels of that section. Within permitted limits of decency, freedom of speech MUST be allowed.

[mri_fan]

Mri_fan...your conciliatory remarks are a bit too late and do very little to assuage the feelings of all those who work hard in making the festival a success. You were the first one to jump on to the band wagon and point an accusing finger at the "happenings" in the festival. You yourself admit that you have been attending this festival for the last 20 years. Perhaps, you should ask the question to yourself, in as much as you have "noticed" these anomolies, how many times you have honestly contacted a few who are in the thick of it, to appraise them of your feelings, your disappointments and your own vision of how things should be run? If you have not done so in all these years, I am afraid you should keep your criticisms to yourself and not brand the people who are putting in their honest efforts, accusing them of favouritism and other fanciful accusations.

I along with a few friends have been running Carnatic Music Society in NZ for the last 15 years. I know how brickbats hurt!

Organisers of Cleveland festival should shrug off these criticisms and carry on doing their wonderful work. My best wishes to them.

I didn't think my remarks were conciliatory. I've never had my children involved in competitions, so I can't understand the stress competing would put on a family. But the Aradhana is at a cross-roads. It used to be that there was no option but to import musicians from India to perform, but now that no longer the case. This year's schedule verges on bizzare. Sri BMK, Ravikiran, and Sudha on one stage? Sudha has sung a lot, but BMK hasn't been at Cleveland in a long time. Sudha has sang here almost every year for the last 5 years. Why not give him the respect of at least 2 hours to show us his skill. Meanwhile, TNS gets 4 hours after getting close to the same amount of time last year?

Meanwhile, you have four soon-to-be-stars, K. Gayathri, Bharat Sundar, Ramakrishna Murthy, and Vidhya Kalanaraman sharing the spotlight with another great musician for three hours? Is it really fair to bring them over to the US for a week without giving them the chance to sing for even an hour to show their own talent? Some of them are singing with two other living legends earlier in the week. Same thing happened last year with musicians like Pradeep Kumar having an hour to share the stage with another musician from the US he had most likely never met. That mess of a veena concert was the same thing, with 4 excellent veena players taking a backseat to TNS demonstrating his skills. I don't think the young musicians are being exploited, but it doesn't seem fair to make them come here without even allowing them a chance to sing.

And how about some new faces on mridangam. I cherish and respect Dorai, Eashwaran, and Sankaran, and we've have them come for the last 3-5 years, along with TV and Murugaboopathy. . How about of the other stallwarts? It's been ages since we saw UKS, Raja Rao, KRM, KV Prasad, Padri Satish Kumar, J. Vaidyanathan, or god forbid, anyone from Banglore or Kerala who we may not be as familar with. For one of the first times in recent memory, we will be able to listen to a professional kanjira player. I'm not going to knock Karthik, who did not deserve the unfair bashing he got last year, but I have to wonder if that is the reason why we saw a change.

VVS has tremendous power in determining the next stars of classical music. Sanjay in 2000, TMK soon after, etc....Cleveland used to introduce us to the next stars of carnatic music. But the focus is changing, with titles like, "The Bhakthi Margam — Sankeerthana Samarpanam at His Lotus Feet" occupying a prime slot. Why not highlight Abhishek Raghuram, or any of the youngsters who will be coming instead like used to be done? The main weekends used to be powerful and impressive (2 on Saturday, 1 on Sunday)...TNS, TMK, TNK or Lalgudi, or KVN, or Srikantan or Sanjay, etc . Now people who go the main weekends (especially the kids who come to compete), will get to enjoy only 1 "normal" full length concert, on Thursday. I hope its great, because except for the mess that is inevitable for Sunday morning, there isn't much else to look forward to. Last year was not terribly different, unfortunately.

[mri_fan]

dumb question:

what's an m_r_i fan ? expand the acronym, somebody.

Now an N-R-I fan, I can understand.

I am a fan of mridangam. Not a good nickname, I know.

[smala]

I think there are some valid points to consider by Sri VVS. Have Dr. Nagavalli Nagaraj, Sankaran Namboodhiri, Sreevalsan Menon, Unnikrishnan ever been invited to the Cleveland fest - seems like the first two or three never make the Chennai circuit in Dec-Jan. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nick H]

There always are valid points, and I do think that VVS, VKV and Co do actually listen and try to sort them out from the mudslinging. Actually, so far, this year's show has not been as bad as last, which was particularly poisonous.

All I did was to narrate an experience I had and pose some questions and suggestions, asking for a healthy discussion. All my suggestions can be ignored, I don't care

No. all you did was to start a thread, the very title of which is offensive and accusatory. What's more, you signed up just for the purpose.

And then you accuse others of trying to bully you!

ha ha.

[srkris]

We reserve the right to edit your offensive posts...

That is just to remove offensive language, where we believe it might help. In more severe cases, deleting posts, locking threads, banning users etc might be the order of the day.

[harimau]

Last week I was traveling in California and stayed with a friend. His son, an aspiring mridangist, had a class that evening. The class was conducted by a local mridangist who teaches a bunch of students. All the students collect in my friend’s house and take their lessons. I observed the whole session and at the end told the students that they should” apply “ to Cleveland Aradhana competitions. Remember, these days you have to “apply” with a “non refundable fee” and so on! In any case, all the students in unison said ”uncle Cleveland competitions are rigged”.
This despair among the students made me wonder and think as to the veracity in their frustration. If one were to look at the award winners, most are students of musicians from India who also act as “judges”. This results in more than one first and second prizes being given, negating the very spirit of competition? In fact, my friend even told me that a senior vidwan almost begged him to hand over his son to this vidwan to be taught over Skype hinting at his influence in Cleveland! My friend said he had no intentions of changing the teacher.
Having been a judge of several collegiate fellowship competitions in the US and India, I can speak with a wealth of experience. Some level of arbitrariness is unavoidable, but the way it is done in Cleveland, the burden is on them to convince that process is not rigged.

So you are essentially accusing the senior vidwans of trying to poach on a local mridangam teacher's turf by asking the students to transfer to them so that they will get prizes in the Cleveland Aradhana competitions.

Why and how is the Cleveland Aradhana responsible for this alleged malpractice by vidwans from India?

Vidwans travel to the US not just under the aegis of the Cleveland Aradhana. They travel under sponsorship by a variety of organizers in New Jersey, California, etc. How do you expect the Cleveland Aradhana to police the mridangam vidwans when they travel, let us say, in August with some vocalist?

Do you want the Cleveland Aradhana Committee (CAC) to accept and act on anonymous mails by anamadeyams?

Who establishes the truth or falsity of the allegations? Do you expect the CAC members to travel to the US and visit California or Kalamazoo, San Jose or Saginaw Bay, or Monterrey or Michigan, to dig out the truth? Who is going to pay for this travel from India? How does anyone convince you or any of the complainants that a fair inquiry was carried out?

Why don't one of your "Uncle, the Cleveland competitions are rigged" kids use one of those tiny recorders and record these alleged solicitations and make them public on some website?

What, no takers?

I welcome a healthy discussion and I am willing to offer whatever help I can, subject to time constraints, to the organizers.

[email protected]

I am sure the In-Boxes of the CAC Organizing Committee members are brimming with e-mails from you regarding how to improve the process.

But just for those of us who have no connection with the CAC, why don't you tell us what answers you have to the questions I have raised; in particular your putting the blame on the CAC organizers for alleged misconduct by vidwans.

[harimau]

I think there are some valid points to consider by Sri VVS. Have Dr. Nagavalli Nagaraj, Sankaran Namboodhiri, Sreevalsan Menon, Unnikrishnan ever been invited to the Cleveland fest - seems like the first two or three never make the Chennai circuit in Dec-Jan. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Sreevalson Menon and Unnikrishnan have performed in Cleveland for the Aradhana.

Consider yourself corrected.

If the named artists do not make the Chennai circuit in Dec-Jan, it is NOT the fault of the Cleveland Aradhana.

You could write to organizers in Chennai regarding that issue.

Your letter would be filed away immediately in the Round File.

[harimau]

They used to fair maybe 5-15 years ago. Now that so many of the same faces come every year, their students get promoted. Look at whose playing this year in concerts and whose left out to see the truth. Rohan and Rajna are left off the schedule this year in favor of 13-15 year old students of Vaidyanathan and Raja Rao. Something is wrong with that.

A couple of years ago when some similar statement was made, the mother of Rajna Swaminathan wrote in saying that she merely sent in her daughter's resume and Rajna was given an accompanist's slot.

A lot of conspiracy theories were spun at that time too.

I don't remember a single one of the abusive posters retracting their statements even after Smt. Swaminathan's posting.

Let us face it: the average 15-year-old from Chennai has encountered far greater competition than your average NRI kid in North America. The kid from Chennai would normally do far better.

And for the record, Srimushnam Raja Rao has not even come to Cleveland for the past 3 years. That ought to shoot at least one hole in your argument.

[Nick H]

I like your "round file"!

However thoroughly, conclusively and finally you destroy the arguments and protestations of these people, they will always be back.

[smala]

Sreevalson Menon and Unnikrishnan have performed in Cleveland for the Aradhana.

This would have sufficed - the info.

Consider yourself corrected

Redundant and patronizing.

If the named artists do not make the Chennai circuit in Dec-Jan, it is NOT the fault of the Cleveland Aradhana.

Did someone say or suggest it might be the fault of the Cleveland Aradhana?

You could write to organizers in Chennai regarding that issue.

Aside from the you do this and you do that, Dr. Nagavalli Nagaraj and Sankaran Namboodhiri seem to be home-locale based in the main and not part of any "season" - an observation here, before a 'write to the Round File' and back-slapping applause comes up. If programs are by invitation, some musicians continue to be under-recognized, left in the fray. Another observation.

[jeevanraju]

Pundits are telling the US law makers to follow two dictum: “cut spending” and “increase taxes”. Yet the country chooses just the opposite and the deficit keeps increasing.

(1) In order to bring fiscal issues under control, shouldn’t Cleveland reduce the number of days and invited artists until such time as the position improves and then gradually advance forward, rather than increasing commitments every year? How about trying to keep the event for five days with five artists form India who will perform during the very prime slot and the rest by NA artists in a manner not dissimilar to Chennai sabhas. Five dance events can alternate with the five music concerts. The existing model in terms of ticket etc can continue as such.

(2) It looks like the competitions are the most major attractions that assures a flood of visitors from CA at least. Turn it into an even prominent affair by making it last the first three days. There can be a preliminary round (to be done regionally by suitable judges), an elimination round and the final round both held in Cleveland. The fee structure can be multitier. As a participant advances to the next level, charge a higher fee for that level. I am sure the number of participants will only keep increasing since competitions such as these are used by 99% percent of the kids to get admission in a top school. Once that is achieved, one hears very little about them until they are employed and ready to perform during “weekends” for a small or no fee.

(3) Cleveland can adopt the business model of baseball league (or cricket) by auctioning various concert slots, for artists from India and the NA artists. A percentage of the bidding amount will go to Cleveland for as they say “shipping and handling”. Cleveland will bring them to the US and act pretty much like the baseball commission, supervising to make sure that events take place smoothly. Successful bidders can own their “slots” and have any concerts out of the available artists they like. Each bidder is allowed only one slot or at the most two. If there are more slots available they can go for more than one slot. The initial bidding amount will be higher for senior vidwans and lower for younger ones. It can increase as the bidding goes on of course. The successful bidder also decides the entire concert team by himself/herself or by seeking advise from any one he/she chooses. They can also give a name to the concert if they want, named after their family members, birth place or school of what ever. After handing over the percentage owed to Cleveland, they should pay the rest to the artists in a decent proportion among the team

(4)Usually, most bidding is very open and every one knows who bid and for how much. Cleveland can exercise its discretion as to if those details should be made public. That will open up another discussion and they can always analyze the situation.

No doubt format like this will result in decentralization and a more federal nature. Power will be shared rather than concentrated. Finally, to the main loyal supporters of Cleveland, do not expect only applause for everything you do nor assume that any one who expresses a different opinion is your enemy.

[mri_fan]

your 3rd idea is absurd. enraged is at one extreme and you are at another. This isn't like a publicly traded company with a board of directors. It's their show, and the organizers can do what they want. But we can also ask for a little more variety and a transparency.

[VK RAMAN]

mri_fan: Were you in town when VVS,now cacm among rasikas solicted input for 2011? I am surprised just when every thing for the aradhana 2011 under final planning, these allegations are brought up?

[cmlover]

Please do not start multiple threads on the same topic.
We will be forced to delete those threads
(mod note)