29/9/11
In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrqFWtzz ... re=related, Ganesh announces a Ragamalika with KalyANi as the Base, and that using Gruha-Bhedam (GB), they will move on to 6 other Ragams : KhamAs, SAramati, HindoLam, ShankarAbharanam, MadhyamAvati and Deshika Todi.
I would appreciate if some one could let me know how these 6 other ragams could evolve from KalyANi.
Table 1 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graha_bedham explains the Shift from SB-29 to KP-22 to Todi-8 to KalyANi-65 to HK-28 to NB-20. Fine.
I have noted below, the spacings between swarams in 5 of the 6 Ragams under disc here.
65 | mEchakalyANi |..S..R2..G3..M2..P..D2..N3..S’..|..S’..N3..D2..P..M2..G3..R2..S
Spacings :.................2....2...2....1..2....2....1.....|....1....2....2..1....2....2...2
KhamAs...|28 – HK|..S..M1..G3..M1..P..D2..N2..S’..|..S’..N2..D2..P..M1..G3..R2..S
Spacings :..........|....5...–1....1....2...2...1....2.....|....2...1....2...2....1....2....2
SAramati..|20 – NB|..S..R2..G2..M1..P..D1..N2..S’..|..S’..N2..D1..M1..G2..S
Spacings :................2...–1....2...2..1....2....2.....|.....2....2...3....2....3
MadhyamAvati (Spacings = 2-3-2-3-2) to HindoLam (Spacings = 3-2-3-2-2) is explained in the 1st Table of Janya Ragams in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graha_bedham. Fine.
As per http://www.karnatik.com/ragasd.shtml#dEshikatODi :
8 | dEshikatODi |..S..G2..M1..P..D1..N2..S’..|..S’..N2..D1..P..M1..G2..R1..S
Spacings :.............3...2.....2..1....3...2.....|.....2...3....1...2....2....2...1
It can be observed that :
a) KhamAs, SAramati and dEshikatODi don’t have symmetric Ar & Av ie, the spacings in the Ar and Av are not mirror-spacings.
b) KhamAs has a jump of 5 spaces, followed by –1.
c) We have spacings of a jump of 3 at places in SAramati and dEshikatODi.
In one of the GB discussions in this site in 2006, on an application of the GB Shift with a variation, arunk had nicely explained how we can derive HindoLam by taking a GB Shift at R1 of HamsAnandi, but without considering S of HamsAnandi ie, from an original Spacing of (1-3-2-3-2-1) . (1-3-2-3-2-1) ..., if we remove S and take a GB Shift at R1, we get (3-2-3-2 - 2) . (3-2-3-2 - 2) ... of HindoLam.
Similarly, would some variation of GB Shift be able to explain how the above 6 Ragams can be derived from KalyANi, I wonder.
With the above info (and any other additional inputs), I would like to know how the above 6 Ragams can be derived using GB.
PS :
In fact, in many parts of this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrqFWtzz ... re=related (UTb Lnk 1),
I felt that the Base Ragam was closer to Yamuna KalyANi ??
I also felt that that the tune had subtle changes at the foll times :
Start at 1:08 to 2:28 m : Yamuna KalyANi ??
3:55 m
4:57 m
6:28 to 7:25 m : Sound Of Music Song’s Tune ?
7:40 to 8:00 m
8:50 to 10:00 m : Here, more like KalyANi of CM ??
Would appreciate if someone could mark out the different Ragams along with their Time Ranges in the above Video (Lnk 1), as well as in the following one (Lnk 2), which seems to be a closely related one to the above Video (Lnk 1).
There is a close resemblance of the above UTb video (UTb Lnk 1) to this foll video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-cWoIEq ... re=related (UTb Lnk 2)
I am not sure if the 2 Videos have overlapping time-ranges, or if this 2nd Video follows in continuation after the 1st one ??
Thanks in Advance (TIA)
...
G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
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rajeshnat
- Posts: 9932
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Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
Sundar Krishnan
This query and the other one in Deshadi talam-ragamAliga sequence is wrongly put in Kutcheri Reviews and Recordings topic, from next time take your time to put in the right topic please (Mods may move this to say General Discussions)
On a side note , some of your question involve atleast few hours to comprehend the question after referring different links, I suggest in future ask these kind of questions and wait for a week till some forumite answers and then put the second question after a week, that way you have better chance to get the answer , at times this kind of detailed questioning in succession will annoy the possible forumites not to answer , even if they know the answer.
Spacing is key here,I hope you take my suggestion in the right spirit.
This query and the other one in Deshadi talam-ragamAliga sequence is wrongly put in Kutcheri Reviews and Recordings topic, from next time take your time to put in the right topic please (Mods may move this to say General Discussions)
On a side note , some of your question involve atleast few hours to comprehend the question after referring different links, I suggest in future ask these kind of questions and wait for a week till some forumite answers and then put the second question after a week, that way you have better chance to get the answer , at times this kind of detailed questioning in succession will annoy the possible forumites not to answer , even if they know the answer.
Spacing is key here,I hope you take my suggestion in the right spirit.
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
29/9/11
1) >> rajeshnat wrote : take your time to put in the right topic ...
I did take quite some time to think about which sub-forum title would be the most apt one for this Thread.
Since it is a discussion on a Kutcheri (that also happens to be uploaded in UTb), I chose to put this Thread under "Kutcheri Reviews & Recordings", which I still continue to think, is a far better sub-forum title than yr reco : "General Discussions" - unless a Moderator uses his Veto ...
2) >> rajeshnat wrote : referring different links :
There are just 2 UTb links in my Post.
Since both seem to be somewhat related (either there seems to be some overlap of the same portions in the 2 links, or the 2nd one seems to be a continuation of the 1st), of which I am not sure though, I have provided both the Links.
3) >> rajeshnat wrote : will annoy the possible forumites not to answer, even if they know the answer :
Why don't you leave it to the Members' own judgement, without biasing them ?
An interested member, who has the answer, and who finds significance in this discussion, may reply when he has time.
As for you, if, as you said, you are "annoyed", you may choose not to answer (assuming that you have the answer).
...
1) >> rajeshnat wrote : take your time to put in the right topic ...
I did take quite some time to think about which sub-forum title would be the most apt one for this Thread.
Since it is a discussion on a Kutcheri (that also happens to be uploaded in UTb), I chose to put this Thread under "Kutcheri Reviews & Recordings", which I still continue to think, is a far better sub-forum title than yr reco : "General Discussions" - unless a Moderator uses his Veto ...
2) >> rajeshnat wrote : referring different links :
There are just 2 UTb links in my Post.
Since both seem to be somewhat related (either there seems to be some overlap of the same portions in the 2 links, or the 2nd one seems to be a continuation of the 1st), of which I am not sure though, I have provided both the Links.
3) >> rajeshnat wrote : will annoy the possible forumites not to answer, even if they know the answer :
Why don't you leave it to the Members' own judgement, without biasing them ?
An interested member, who has the answer, and who finds significance in this discussion, may reply when he has time.
As for you, if, as you said, you are "annoyed", you may choose not to answer (assuming that you have the answer).
...
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
It is easier to figure how to arrive at the mela-kartha of those 6 ragams from kalyani - which would (in most cases) yield the original swara to do bedham on, and then figure out which swaras need to be omitted.
Prof SRJ in a lecdem in Chicago few years ago told us a compact formula to easily remember how the "known" melakarthas are derivable from each other via graha-bedham on 'ri' (of each): shan-khara-todi-kal-hari-naTa.
Per this,
If (e.g.) you start with shankarabharaNam, and do graha-bedham on its ri, you get kharaharapriya.
If you do graha-bedham on the ri of kharaharapriya, you get tODi
If you do graha-bedham on the ri of toDi, you get kalyani
If you do graha-bedham on the ri of kalyAni, you get harikAmbhOji
If you do graha-bedham on the ri of harikAmbhOji, you get naTabhairavi
(Note: if you do graha-bedham on the ri of naTabhairavi, you get a raga with two ma's and wont match any melakarta. I think if you do graha-bedham on the ri of that raga, you get back to SankarAbharanam).
The above is just a easy neat shorthand for knowing the order. It can be easily confirmed by math.
Also per above, if you think about it, you should be able to also see that to get from Sankarabhanam to tODi, you have to do on the ga of Sankarabaranam (Why? its ri takes you to kharaharapriya. This "derived" Kharaharapriya's ri takes you to toDi, but this "ri" is the same as starting Sankarabharanam's next swara i.e. ga). Or more compactly, toDi comes "2 spots" forward in the order, and the swara that is two spots from sa is "ga".
Similarly from todi, to get to kharaharapriya, you do on ni - because it comes one spot earlier in the above order, and the swara that is one spot is "ni". Of course all this can be derived from math etc. - but this gets you there quickly.
So in this case
1. khamas is harikambhOji's janya. You get from kalyani to harikambhoji via ri - then you follow khamas' lakshana
2. Saramati is naTabhairavi janya. You get from kalyani to naTabhairavi via ga - then you apply Saramati's lakshana,
3. madyamavati being pentatonic probably could be yielded in multiple ways - but if you take it as kharaharapriya - you get from kalyani to kharaharpriya via dha (two spots earlier => ni and then dha)
4. desikatODi - looks like tODi janya. You can get via ni.
Hope this helps
Arun
Prof SRJ in a lecdem in Chicago few years ago told us a compact formula to easily remember how the "known" melakarthas are derivable from each other via graha-bedham on 'ri' (of each): shan-khara-todi-kal-hari-naTa.
Per this,
If (e.g.) you start with shankarabharaNam, and do graha-bedham on its ri, you get kharaharapriya.
If you do graha-bedham on the ri of kharaharapriya, you get tODi
If you do graha-bedham on the ri of toDi, you get kalyani
If you do graha-bedham on the ri of kalyAni, you get harikAmbhOji
If you do graha-bedham on the ri of harikAmbhOji, you get naTabhairavi
(Note: if you do graha-bedham on the ri of naTabhairavi, you get a raga with two ma's and wont match any melakarta. I think if you do graha-bedham on the ri of that raga, you get back to SankarAbharanam).
The above is just a easy neat shorthand for knowing the order. It can be easily confirmed by math.
Also per above, if you think about it, you should be able to also see that to get from Sankarabhanam to tODi, you have to do on the ga of Sankarabaranam (Why? its ri takes you to kharaharapriya. This "derived" Kharaharapriya's ri takes you to toDi, but this "ri" is the same as starting Sankarabharanam's next swara i.e. ga). Or more compactly, toDi comes "2 spots" forward in the order, and the swara that is two spots from sa is "ga".
Similarly from todi, to get to kharaharapriya, you do on ni - because it comes one spot earlier in the above order, and the swara that is one spot is "ni". Of course all this can be derived from math etc. - but this gets you there quickly.
So in this case
1. khamas is harikambhOji's janya. You get from kalyani to harikambhoji via ri - then you follow khamas' lakshana
2. Saramati is naTabhairavi janya. You get from kalyani to naTabhairavi via ga - then you apply Saramati's lakshana,
3. madyamavati being pentatonic probably could be yielded in multiple ways - but if you take it as kharaharapriya - you get from kalyani to kharaharpriya via dha (two spots earlier => ni and then dha)
4. desikatODi - looks like tODi janya. You can get via ni.
Hope this helps
Arun
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
1/10/11
Arunk,
Thanks for yr explanation.
However, you will notice that in Post # 1, I have already stated :
“Table 1 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graha_bedham explains the Shift from SB-29 to KP-22 to Todi-8 to KalyANi-65 to HK-28 to NB-20. Fine.”
The meaning of adding “Fine” is that, all this (ie, in this Table 1), is well and easily, understood.
ie, Table 1 in the wiki link describes the Shift from SB-29 to KP-22 to Todi-8 to KalyANi-65 to HK-28 to NB-20 very succinctly.
Similarly, I gave an example of Janya Ragams, where one can arrive at them DIRECTLY by using GB – I gave the apt example in this case of MadhyamAvati to HindoLam as given in the same link. There too, I added the word “Fine” to express the same meaning that the GB Shifts shown in that Table, are all well and easily understood. :
“MadhyamAvati (Spacings = 2-3-2-3-2) to HindoLam (Spacings = 3-2-3-2-2) is explained in the 1st Table of Janya Ragams. Fine.”
What I therefore wanted to know was if we could similarly ie DIRECTLY, land in the 6 Ragams like Khamas, SAramati etc, using GB ie, in the usual sense of applying GB, and landing on the Ragams DIRECTLY.
For this you have said :
“... then you follow khamas’ lakshana”
“... then you apply SAramati’s lakshana”
etc ...
As for dEshikatODi, I have already indicated in Post # 1 that it is indeed derived from Todi, and also provided the link which gives the Ar-Av.
PS : Even the Invalid Mela Ragam (with 2 Ms) is already explained so nicely, pictorially, in Table 1.
...
Arunk,
Thanks for yr explanation.
However, you will notice that in Post # 1, I have already stated :
“Table 1 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graha_bedham explains the Shift from SB-29 to KP-22 to Todi-8 to KalyANi-65 to HK-28 to NB-20. Fine.”
The meaning of adding “Fine” is that, all this (ie, in this Table 1), is well and easily, understood.
ie, Table 1 in the wiki link describes the Shift from SB-29 to KP-22 to Todi-8 to KalyANi-65 to HK-28 to NB-20 very succinctly.
Similarly, I gave an example of Janya Ragams, where one can arrive at them DIRECTLY by using GB – I gave the apt example in this case of MadhyamAvati to HindoLam as given in the same link. There too, I added the word “Fine” to express the same meaning that the GB Shifts shown in that Table, are all well and easily understood. :
“MadhyamAvati (Spacings = 2-3-2-3-2) to HindoLam (Spacings = 3-2-3-2-2) is explained in the 1st Table of Janya Ragams. Fine.”
What I therefore wanted to know was if we could similarly ie DIRECTLY, land in the 6 Ragams like Khamas, SAramati etc, using GB ie, in the usual sense of applying GB, and landing on the Ragams DIRECTLY.
For this you have said :
“... then you follow khamas’ lakshana”
“... then you apply SAramati’s lakshana”
etc ...
As for dEshikatODi, I have already indicated in Post # 1 that it is indeed derived from Todi, and also provided the link which gives the Ar-Av.
PS : Even the Invalid Mela Ragam (with 2 Ms) is already explained so nicely, pictorially, in Table 1.
...
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arunk
- Posts: 3424
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
> What I therefore wanted to know was if we could similarly ie DIRECTLY, land in the 6 Ragams like Khamas, SAramati etc, using > GB ie, in the usual sense of applying GB, and landing on the Ragams DIRECTLY.
You cannot.
Arun
You cannot.
Arun
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
1/10/11
Arunk wrote : >> You cannot.
Yes, precisely, that is why I don’t feel so comfortable with that announcement in the Video ! (of calling these Ragams as GBed Ragams - from KalyANi).
***********
Wrt PS of Post # 1 ie, the 2nd Part of Post # 1 :
I later found out that indeed UTb Video Link 2 is part-overlap, and part-continuation, of the UTb Video Link 1.
I also found a more exact-matching-correct 1st Part – let us call it Vid A (more exact matching link than the Link 1 sent earlier) :
The 2 (almost) consecutive Links, put up by bbsarav (http://www.sarav.net) are :
G-K in Margazhi Maha Urchavam 2009 – 4 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgaYxNAe ... re=related - let us call this “Vid A” – replaces Link 1 sent earlier.
G-K in Margazhi Maha Urchavam 2009 – 5 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-cWoIEq ... re=related - let us call this “Vid B” = same as Lnk 2 sent earlier.
I say “almost consecutive” because (still,) the first 40 secs of the 2nd Video Link B above, is an overlap of 40 secs in the last part of the 1st Vid A.
My query about : “if the Base Ragam, that they often come back to, is more like Yamuna KalyANi”, still remains.
However, in the 2nd Vid B, the foll time ranges appear to be more like the traditional CM KalyANi :
3:01 m to 4:55 m : When the “Spring” Legend appears at 3:05 m.
6:45 m to 7:57 m
So, would appreciate if someone could mark out the different Ragams along with their Time Ranges in the above Video (Lnk A), as well as in the following one (Lnk B).
***********
Prof SRJ in yr Post # 4 : What does SRJ stand for ?
TIA
...
Arunk wrote : >> You cannot.
Yes, precisely, that is why I don’t feel so comfortable with that announcement in the Video ! (of calling these Ragams as GBed Ragams - from KalyANi).
***********
Wrt PS of Post # 1 ie, the 2nd Part of Post # 1 :
I later found out that indeed UTb Video Link 2 is part-overlap, and part-continuation, of the UTb Video Link 1.
I also found a more exact-matching-correct 1st Part – let us call it Vid A (more exact matching link than the Link 1 sent earlier) :
The 2 (almost) consecutive Links, put up by bbsarav (http://www.sarav.net) are :
G-K in Margazhi Maha Urchavam 2009 – 4 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgaYxNAe ... re=related - let us call this “Vid A” – replaces Link 1 sent earlier.
G-K in Margazhi Maha Urchavam 2009 – 5 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-cWoIEq ... re=related - let us call this “Vid B” = same as Lnk 2 sent earlier.
I say “almost consecutive” because (still,) the first 40 secs of the 2nd Video Link B above, is an overlap of 40 secs in the last part of the 1st Vid A.
My query about : “if the Base Ragam, that they often come back to, is more like Yamuna KalyANi”, still remains.
However, in the 2nd Vid B, the foll time ranges appear to be more like the traditional CM KalyANi :
3:01 m to 4:55 m : When the “Spring” Legend appears at 3:05 m.
6:45 m to 7:57 m
So, would appreciate if someone could mark out the different Ragams along with their Time Ranges in the above Video (Lnk A), as well as in the following one (Lnk B).
***********
Prof SRJ in yr Post # 4 : What does SRJ stand for ?
TIA
...
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GNB_LGJ_PR
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 22:38
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
I am yet to watch the video to find out the exact time at which the transition occurs.
I am not sure if your question/doubt has been answered.
From Kalyani(65) scale we would get the following parent scales(melams) when the tonic is shifted
R - HK(28)
G - NB(20)
M - Invalid Melam(*)
P - SB(29)
D - KP(22)
N - Todi(8)
KhamAs, SAramati, HindoLam, ShankarAbharanam, MadhyamAvati and Deshika Todi are the janyas of the aforesaid scales in the same order.
The only point to be noted here is that Hindolam is taken as a janya of the invalid mela.
The scale of the invalid mela is S R1 G2 M1 M2 D1 N2 S and Hindolam's scale S M1 G2 M1 D1 N2 S - S N2 D1 M1 G2 S- fits into it.
Hope this helps.
I am not sure if your question/doubt has been answered.
From Kalyani(65) scale we would get the following parent scales(melams) when the tonic is shifted
R - HK(28)
G - NB(20)
M - Invalid Melam(*)
P - SB(29)
D - KP(22)
N - Todi(8)
KhamAs, SAramati, HindoLam, ShankarAbharanam, MadhyamAvati and Deshika Todi are the janyas of the aforesaid scales in the same order.
The only point to be noted here is that Hindolam is taken as a janya of the invalid mela.
The scale of the invalid mela is S R1 G2 M1 M2 D1 N2 S and Hindolam's scale S M1 G2 M1 D1 N2 S - S N2 D1 M1 G2 S- fits into it.
Hope this helps.
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
5/10/11
GNB_LGJ_PR,
Somewhat similar to yr Post # 8, arunk also initially wrote in Post # 4.
However, when I again pointed out in Post # 5 that most of the basic stuff about GB is understood, and that we are here referring to this specific case of : “... if we could similarly ie DIRECTLY, land in the 6 Ragams ...”, he immly replied in Post # 7 : “You cannot”.
Further, Hindolam is a janya of 20 – NB.
One other rule I have learnt from experts is that whenever there is clash of more than one Parent Ragam being possible for a Janya Ragam, the Parent Ragam with the Lower Mela No wins.
Eg of sUrya :
14 | vakulAbharaNam | S R1 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R1 S
26 | chArukeshi | S R2 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R2 S
sUrya |14| | S G3 M1 D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 M1 G3 S
sUrya does not have an R - so can belong to either Parent Ragam but, the Parent with the lower Melakarta Number usually wins ! (ie, 14 | vakulAbharaNam in this case).
sUrya is also called sallabham (Sallapa).
We don't consider Inavlaid Melas.
If you wish to reply with any new points, I suggest that it would be preferable that you first watch the 2 Videos.
*******************
The main query still is : ... would appreciate if someone could mark out the different Ragams along with their Time Ranges in the above Video (Lnk A), as well as in the following one (Lnk B).
***********
Prof SRJ in Post # 4 : I would like to know the full name of Prof SRJ.
...
GNB_LGJ_PR,
Somewhat similar to yr Post # 8, arunk also initially wrote in Post # 4.
However, when I again pointed out in Post # 5 that most of the basic stuff about GB is understood, and that we are here referring to this specific case of : “... if we could similarly ie DIRECTLY, land in the 6 Ragams ...”, he immly replied in Post # 7 : “You cannot”.
Further, Hindolam is a janya of 20 – NB.
One other rule I have learnt from experts is that whenever there is clash of more than one Parent Ragam being possible for a Janya Ragam, the Parent Ragam with the Lower Mela No wins.
Eg of sUrya :
14 | vakulAbharaNam | S R1 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R1 S
26 | chArukeshi | S R2 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R2 S
sUrya |14| | S G3 M1 D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 M1 G3 S
sUrya does not have an R - so can belong to either Parent Ragam but, the Parent with the lower Melakarta Number usually wins ! (ie, 14 | vakulAbharaNam in this case).
sUrya is also called sallabham (Sallapa).
We don't consider Inavlaid Melas.
If you wish to reply with any new points, I suggest that it would be preferable that you first watch the 2 Videos.
*******************
The main query still is : ... would appreciate if someone could mark out the different Ragams along with their Time Ranges in the above Video (Lnk A), as well as in the following one (Lnk B).
***********
Prof SRJ in Post # 4 : I would like to know the full name of Prof SRJ.
...
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
>full name of Prof SRJ
Prof. S. R. Janakiraman
R stands for Rangasamy Iyer ( his father's name ). I do not know what S stand for.
http://www.srjanakiraman.com/
Prof. S. R. Janakiraman
R stands for Rangasamy Iyer ( his father's name ). I do not know what S stand for.
http://www.srjanakiraman.com/
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Sundar Krishnan
- Posts: 496
- Joined: 19 Feb 2008, 18:50
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
Thanks for full form of R and J in SRJ.
...
...
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GNB_LGJ_PR
- Posts: 55
- Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 22:38
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
Sundar Krishnan,
****************************************************************
Further, Hindolam is a janya of 20 – NB.
One other rule I have learnt from experts is that whenever there is clash of more than one Parent Ragam being possible for a Janya Ragam, the Parent Ragam with the Lower Mela No wins.
Eg of sUrya :
14 | vakulAbharaNam | S R1 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R1 S
26 | chArukeshi | S R2 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R2 S
sUrya |14| | S G3 M1 D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 M1 G3 S
sUrya does not have an R - so can belong to either Parent Ragam but, the Parent with the lower Melakarta Number usually wins ! (ie, 14 | vakulAbharaNam in this case).
sUrya is also called sallabham (Sallapa).
We don't consider Inavlaid Melas.
If you wish to reply with any new points, I suggest that it would be preferable that you first watch the 2 Videos.
*******************
sUrya can also be a janya of 32(Ragavardhini).
Your own example of sUrya aka Sallabham/Sallapa to illustrate the "lower melakarta number takes the cake" is in contradiction when Hindolam is taken as a janya of 20(NB). Using the lower melakarta rule it should have been a janya of 8(Hanuma Thodi).
Revati should have been a janya of Ratnangi(02)
Hamsadhvani should have been a janya of Sarasangi(27)
Amritavarshni should been a janya of Kamavardhini(51)
All the janyas under 28(HK) which do not have Ga should have been janya of 22(KP). But they are not.
The aforesaid are a few examples that counter the rule put forth by experts.
In my opinion, "parent ragam with a lower mela number wins" rule is a debatable topic.
*******************
Coming back to the main discussion, I did watch the videos. To me all the shifts sounded like Kalyani(just that the Graha swara kept changing from S to R and then to G and so on)
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Further, Hindolam is a janya of 20 – NB.
One other rule I have learnt from experts is that whenever there is clash of more than one Parent Ragam being possible for a Janya Ragam, the Parent Ragam with the Lower Mela No wins.
Eg of sUrya :
14 | vakulAbharaNam | S R1 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R1 S
26 | chArukeshi | S R2 G3 M1 P D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 P M1 G3 R2 S
sUrya |14| | S G3 M1 D1 N2 S | S N2 D1 M1 G3 S
sUrya does not have an R - so can belong to either Parent Ragam but, the Parent with the lower Melakarta Number usually wins ! (ie, 14 | vakulAbharaNam in this case).
sUrya is also called sallabham (Sallapa).
We don't consider Inavlaid Melas.
If you wish to reply with any new points, I suggest that it would be preferable that you first watch the 2 Videos.
*******************
sUrya can also be a janya of 32(Ragavardhini).
Your own example of sUrya aka Sallabham/Sallapa to illustrate the "lower melakarta number takes the cake" is in contradiction when Hindolam is taken as a janya of 20(NB). Using the lower melakarta rule it should have been a janya of 8(Hanuma Thodi).
Revati should have been a janya of Ratnangi(02)
Hamsadhvani should have been a janya of Sarasangi(27)
Amritavarshni should been a janya of Kamavardhini(51)
All the janyas under 28(HK) which do not have Ga should have been janya of 22(KP). But they are not.
The aforesaid are a few examples that counter the rule put forth by experts.
In my opinion, "parent ragam with a lower mela number wins" rule is a debatable topic.
*******************
Coming back to the main discussion, I did watch the videos. To me all the shifts sounded like Kalyani(just that the Graha swara kept changing from S to R and then to G and so on)
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Ashwin
- Posts: 226
- Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 23:48
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
The S stands for Srirangam.vasanthakokilam wrote:>full name of Prof SRJ
Prof. S. R. Janakiraman
R stands for Rangasamy Iyer ( his father's name ). I do not know what S stand for.
http://www.srjanakiraman.com/
Ashwin
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10956
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
Re: G-K Utb Lnk : Req how 6 GB Ragams evolve from KlyNi
Thanks Ashwin.