Music composed on the iPad

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 23 Jul 2011, 08:10

Ok ... That makes a big difference then!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jul 2011, 19:55

It is actually possible to create almost the same melody using guitar instruments on iPad's Garageband - but for carnatic style you need to use the keyboard instruments which allow you to slide "smoothly" (albeit not totally naturally since it is digitally done) between any two notes. The guitar instruments allow for easy (and quite impressive) bends but the range is limited (2-3 semitones)

I have not tried the keyboard instruments too hard on the iPad - but I also had the feeling this wasnt as easy on Garageband as with bebot (mainly owing to the difference in flexibility of specifying scales). I beieve with bebot on iPad one can do reasonably well.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Jul 2011, 21:20

Arun: I agree that the flexibility to specify our own scales is needed ( basically, the ability to remove arbitrary notes from the 12 note layout ).

But what I found is you can quickly slide over a note that you do not want and that note does not seem to contribute to the sound. In the case of Sivaranjani above it is the G3 of the Major Blues scale that I had to slide over. It will be better if I can take out the G3 because if you slow down a bit as you slide over G3, G3 will contribute. Bebot has the ability to specify any scale but the reason I do not use Bebot that much is, its sounds are fairly limited and they sound artificial compared to the GB on the iPad.

The big thing for me with GB on the iPad is the ability to slide from note to note in the flat keyboard with the finger. On a regular keyboard, I suppose one accomplishes this by using a high portamento or glide setting but it is so much natural with the smooth iPad surface. The learning curve on that is pretty much close to zero.

The second major issue is oscillations. Simulating it using the portamento style glides seems to be possible but I have not gotten the hang of it. I am sure carnatic keyboard players like Satya and Mohan will find ways to coax the maximum carnatic out of it.

I hear that there are some cool features on the GB on the Mac like drawing a pitch bend curve in the editor etc. which will port over very nicely with a more natural touch based UI to GB on the iPad. Hope Apple is listening.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jul 2011, 21:33

Slides are the first step but that alone is inadequate for cm feel. You need nokku (very subtle but IMO extremely important and is all over the place), as well as of course kampita - this one is somewhat easy to do as long as you have good decay control (i.e. a note to fade away naturally whenever you stop) in the synthesizer. Bebot has no decay control (I think morphwiz is better).

I am yet to find a keyboard sound in Garageband that I really like (i.e. during slides), But I had the same problem with Bebot too. I liked the sounds of the iSequence a lot better (but it doesnt have the free slide capability).

I think Apple may not bring finer pitch controls because they are a pain to control even on the mac (where the range of pitch control is also limited). Garageband's UI is part of the problem but even otherwuse too fine controls make little sense on the iPad where your controlling mechanism is a fat finger - alhough they would make you fill in the screen etc. I think Apple's current approach is a "fun toy" that you can do fairly easy tunes. Not a full-fledged music creation program - the mac is there for that (and that too Logic Pro).

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Jul 2011, 01:20

How will you characterize nokku in terms of sound parameters?

For kampita, is there a way to control the decay on the iPad GB? Illustrate with an example, if you can.

>I am yet to find a keyboard sound in Garageband that I really like (i.e. during slides)

You can try to put in your own sounds using the Sampler. But the slides may still not be to your liking, You can control some aspects of the sampled sound.

I agree GB on the iPad is a great toy.. It is also a great learning and experimental tool for both melody and rhythm. Though I see what you are saying about the UI, Apple has surprised us with a few things in the past and I am hoping for that here. ( How about setting the pitch contour of a transition by moving the iPad in the air tracking the curve you want...just a wild thought )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Jul 2011, 02:26

About nokku:

It would be best to get the precise mechanics from instrumentalists (mohan, akellaji, uday etc.) - i dont really know how to play proper carnatic music in any instrument - i can do some things but i am sure they are gross approximations

.

But the basic concept is to do a fast slide to the "next" (higher) swara and come back to it - you usually start this from the previous swara. For example to get the ri on mohanam you slide from sa very quickly to ga and then to ri s(g)r - the g has to be hint (so quickly to it and back) - in my (amatuerish) experience this is a lot about timing of pitch curve.

Decay - some instruments have a "Release" setting that control how quicky it "dies out" (you also have the "Attack" that controls how quickly it goes to the intended volume from the note start..

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Jul 2011, 02:37

Also I could be mistaken i think the continuous slide in Garageband is "imperfect" in the sense that even after setting the scale, if you do not arrive at the middle of a key, it the "invisible" (and thus invalid as not part of the scale) note can be sounded quite easily. So when sliding etc. it seems like one should be careful to have your fingers end at the middle of the target key. So when trying s(g)r with the "loop around" ri, if at the end your finger is in the ri key but is in the upper half and "close enough" (dont know know close) to the G3 key, it may sound (the missing) G2! Similarly if you arent careful and you arrive at R2 and it is well in the lower-half of the key, it will sound the (missing) R1. Atleast this is my experience. Bebot I had a easier time making it latch to the notes of the scale when nearby.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Jul 2011, 04:42

if you do not arrive at the middle of a key, the "invisible" (and thus invalid as not part of the scale) note can be sounded quite easily.

Really? I tried it just now but could not reproduce that issue with Major Pentatonic on the standard key board instruments or the sampler.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Jul 2011, 04:54

It happens mainly for the nokku attempt i.e. very fast slides.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Jul 2011, 04:57

It will soon adjust to the right pitch but the incorrect anuswara is discernible. It also happens if the s(g3)r2 doesnt reach fully into the G3 key. If you do a very fast s to g3 to r2 and you touch only the first-quarter of the ga key, it will sound like s(g2)r2. If you land back in the first-quarter-of r1 key. It will sound like s-g3-(r1)r2 (r1-r2 being a smooth slide up).

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Jul 2011, 05:01

Actually now I am not sure about the R1 part but the quick s(g)r can sound flat if done too fast.

Also more apparent when you make the keyboard the "widest" (i.e. fewer keys on the screen)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Jul 2011, 05:32

I think I now hear some odd sounds in that wide mode. Also noticed a different odd sound if I do not fully land on a key. Like, slide down to the border and lift. In some cases it sounds pleasant!!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Jul 2011, 03:46

Vk - here is a "demo" of possible ways of playing nokku on GarageBand. Of course be forewarned that there may be inaccuracies in delivery (as wellas the "model" itself) etc. Also apologize for the focus problems. Forgot to turn off autofocus on the camera!

http://blip.tv/sunson/mohanam-with-gama ... ad-5407248

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jul 2011, 05:22

Nice.

well done.. I will to try to learn that technique.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 25 Jul 2011, 05:28

arunk wrote: http://blip.tv/sunson/mohanam-with-gama ... ad-5407248

That sounds good and is the similar technique I use for the keyboard with the portamento setting on.

Are there are a wide selection of tones, eg. those that approximate a veena, flute or violin? Sometimes those tones won't work with the portament/glide very well.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Jul 2011, 21:48

The selection of instruments is not that great (most of them are based on "synthesizer" sounds used in western music), but there are many adjustments (cutoff, resonance, attack, release) for a lot of them which have an effect the timbre. Still most have the western synthesizer feel.

But as vk mentioned, one can record your own samples - which can be a gateway for using real sounds - but I would guess that unless the sample is a perfect loop - results wont be good.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Jul 2011, 22:09

It is much easier to make crazy sounds than good sounds with the sampler

BTW, all the songs above were played with my flute sound samples. How did that sound for the most part? I can not tell for sure.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 25 Jul 2011, 23:09

Your sample was quite good!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jul 2011, 02:53

Arun: Thanks.

May I give you an assignment... ( feels strange to give assignment to the Nokku teacher

)

Let us shoot for the moon.

With Dorian scale, can you try Bhairavi - Viriboni, the very beginning. I tried and I am only getting cat meow sounds

To be specific, just this portion: S... R..N..D2...N.S.R..G..S.R GRGGR.. GGRGMPP MPG2R2S NSMGRS N2SR..G.S. R NNDN. S.G.R.. S......

Approximate and only indicatory and directionally OK notation, of course. Even the first few notes will be a great start.
( I replaced one D1 with a P in G2G2R2G2M1PP, I think last P is really a D1 but since we are using Dorian let us just go with P )

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jul 2011, 03:38

- you must be joking. Here we are trying songs of geetham complexities and struggling with ninnukori, and you want to try the grandest of'em all

I will give it a shot - may be our cats can hang out together!

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jul 2011, 03:45

i also would think that in certain places like p-d1 can be achieved by using the pitch-wheel.

BTW, i have not learnt this varnam (makes a huge difference in knowing what precise gamakas to apply - of course knowing and executing is a different thing

)

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jul 2011, 03:53

>I will give it a shot - may be our cats can hang out together!

Thanks.

See, with that pitch bend idea, you are shooting past the moon! Yes, great idea and go for it if you can. But I will be satisfied even without that, and even the first few few phrases. I learnt it decades back on the flute. The distance between full gamaka execution and flat note execution is the maximum even in those first few phrases. I still recall the amused look of CM knowledgeable people around me as they listened to my monumental struggles while I was beginning to learn that varnam. One pay off was one such 'uncle' from a few doors down said after a few weeks 'varudu, varudu, moLLA varudu '

( it is coming, it is coming, it is slowly coming!! )

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jul 2011, 04:04

Let me nokkufy this phrase based on how I was taught.. "S... R..N..D2...N.S.R..G..S.R.. GRGGR"

S is (P) S
R not much.. sounds plain
N - A monster one - SD2SD2N2 in a fast execution
D - NSD
N - DSN
S - straight
R - Straight
G - RG
S - GS
R - SR
G - PG
R - R
GG - GRGR ( I think )
R - SR

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jul 2011, 08:32

Here you go - half of first line - although it is not same as what you have notated only approx of a version I heard (that version was different from what you notated as well as what i found online).

It isnt that great but perhaps shows potential. Remember this is playing one of the toughest songs there is about by a rank amateur who spent a grand total of 1 hour on that line

It also wasnt played in one shot - perhaps a 100 takes for various pieces!

Most difficult (and unnatural) for me are descending passages with slight gamakas - hard to play. Also note that the veena sample I chose (see below) doesnt have a whole lot of sustain and so perhaps like a real veena you can only go long "bending" a note until it dies out. Here more than the real deal.

http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/vbtest.mp3

(For Mohan): This also demonstrates how to use your real instrument samples to make things more realistic sounding (although pitch bends are always going to less than ideal particularly the wide ones that we employ in cm). Here it is the veena (acoustic). I must say it handles pretty much any sample quite impressively. It took me 3 minutes to create and use a sample. Just plucked one string (D) asking Garageband to capture it - and voila!

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jul 2011, 10:10

Arun: Great attempt. I know how it difficult it is, having tried this myself with results that pales in comparison to yours. The first part sounds very close, especially the S R N D part followed by N S R G. ( I mistyped my nokku for N in S R N D as RD2RD2N but it is actually SD2SD2N. I have fixed it now. What do you play for that? ). I hear that fleeting nokku between the N and D, that sounds nice. Thanks for taking up this challenging task and spending the time on this. You have definitely shown the way and I also sense considerable promise. And a nice sample of the veena sound.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 Jul 2011, 10:30

Arun - the veena sample is not too bad. Does it sound similar over three octaves?

The folllowing clips of bhairavi on keyboard may help your experimentation on the Ipad.

You can see Sathya's Viriboni at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d61ICkJVAzY
And, a short clip of me playing a bit of bhairavi on keyboard when I met Sathya a couple of years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYnU8sJr ... re=related

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 26 Jul 2011, 21:15

vasanthakokilam wrote:The first part sounds very close, especially the S R N D part followed by N S R G. ( I mistyped my nokku for N in S R N D as RD2RD2N but it is actually SD2SD2N. I have fixed it now. What do you play for that? ). I hear that fleeting nokku between the N and D, that sounds nice.

Code: Select all

S ..  r/g\r  /g\n..   /s\d...
(for)
S     r        n       d

Mohan - the farther away from the original sound (at D), the worser (i.e. more micky-mouse effect). I do not know if there is a way to build the instrument based on multiple spans (say one for each note or even 4 per octave etc.). Thanks for those clips - i will check them out.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Jul 2011, 23:46

Thanks Arun.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 27 Jul 2011, 04:59

arunk wrote: the farther away from the original sound (at D), the worser (i.e. more micky-mouse effect). I do not know if there is a way to build the instrument based on multiple spans (say one for each note or even 4 per octave etc.).

I know the sampler on my synthesizer allows multiple samples at different notes but not sure if Garageband allows the same.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Sep 2011, 23:17

An iPad app that listens to music and changes the page for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBXJZKTOcpw

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 13 Nov 2011, 01:58

..New app for you to try
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2011/ ... er-review/
$10 on iTunes
Seems promising!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Nov 2011, 05:25

Thanks Mohan. Interesting interface. I found a a free version of the app, a predecessor to it with less features, called mugician. I am playing with it to see if that interface is something that will work for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rVpuSj75rI

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 14 Nov 2011, 05:36

Looks good - if only these apps can get some tones more like a veena or mandolin then I am sure they will have lots of Carnatic Music potential. I don't have a iPad/iPhone so can't really try them out. The Android music apps that I have tried on my phone are not that great yet.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Nov 2011, 06:13

The mugician web page http://rrr00bb.blogspot.com/2010/08/mug ... phics.html says
"Expectation Management: Run away now if you want something that's easy to play!" That made me like these guys!!
It is definitely not an easy and intuitive interface but seems to have lot of potential for a power user.

The paid app seems to have loadable sounds. So there is some hope for what you are looking for.

Mohan, Android? Come on now. Get over to the good side

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 02 Dec 2011, 04:14

vasanthakokilam wrote:Mohan, Android? Come on now. Get over to the good side

Ok ok .. I have taken your advice and have got an iPad.

I've loaded Garageband. What instrument and settings do you use?

I'll try mugician and variants too.

Any other decent apps suitable for Carnatic music. I got the iTanpura one.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Dec 2011, 04:49

Great news, Mohan. Congratulations. OMG, you are going to be all over the music app space now

On garageband: Two instruments I fall back to are: Sampler with my flute sound and the Soft Analog .
For the percussion, I use the Apple loop - Indian Pakhwaj. Sounds close to Mridangam.

On the instrument setting that has three values: Glissando, Scroll and Pitch, pitch setting gives the smooth transition. I want to learn from what you do with it. The Pianos do not offer the smooth pitch transition setting but rest of the synthesizer instruments do. I do not use the Pitch Bend and the Mod wheel. Again, I want to learn what your experience is.
I do not use the Sustain setting either.

Though it is a popular app, Apple has not been updating it frequently. I probably got one update after the initial release. I wish Apple will speed that up. I would like more Indian loops. But by far the most missed and wanted feature is to set your own scale instead of the predefined ones, like what Bebot did from day 1. This was one of Arun's complaints too, in addition to notes/freq being not right on the smooth transitions.

Other apps: There is of course our old favorite Bebot.
For the metronome, Steinway and Sons Metronome is great. You can tap to the music to set the tempo which is a nice feature.

I also occasionally use Karajan ear trainer ( free app ). It is probably too easy and elementary for you.

I have also been playing around with mugician. It has good potential, especially if one is a guitarist, and interesting user interface. But it is not the easiest instrument to play. I find It great for making a lot of good sounding random guitar like sounds and for experimentation.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Dec 2011, 05:50

Mohan, one more thing to point out about garageband. There is a setting called Arpeggiator ( inverted V button next to the scale button ). it is interesting how it creates breaks in swaras. Later on I figured it can do Nadais etc. which piqued my interest. The dotted note feature and how it fits into the outer beat is also interesting and creates syncopation. I recorded some stuff a while back and posted in a different thread: http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 30#p203830

Once you get settled in with Garageband and you can check out the Arpeggiator and see how it maps to the laya used in CM.

rasikas.org

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