'Open Forum' at the Music Academy 01 Jan 2012

[Sivaramakrishnan]

The open forum customarily held by MA every New Year Day morning (to mark the formal culmination of the Yearly Conference) deliberates issues of general interest and elicits opinion of the members of the experts Committee of the Music Academy on the lec-dems conducted during the series.

Today (01 Jan 2012), the open forum started by 8.30 a.m. with several members of the experts committee on the dais. I limit my brief report only to the general issues taken up for discussion.

(Sri Pappu Venugopala Rao, Secretary of the Academy moderated the forum in an exemplary manner)

Three issues of general interest discussed were:

1. Exclusive slots for percussion should be introduced in the concert series. (proposed by Mridanga vidwan Patri Satishkumar who was also present at the forum).

Satish explained that percussion slot is now limited to part of vocal/instrumental concerts as Tani avartanam. Here the percussionist has always got to play for the Tala adopted by the lead artist and even adjust to the style of the rendering. When at all rasikas get an opportunity to see exclusive slots by veterans containing valuable laya intricacies - he asked. The forum in general appreciated Satish's concern. Layavinyasam ensembles presented by AIR is an example, pointed out a member. But a highly knowledgeable audience alone would appreciate such exclusive slots.

While perusing the issue, Prof Trichy Sankaran observed that in many cases, the spontaneity or an element of challenge for the mridangist for playing Tani in a concert 'for a tala on the spot' may be missing if you go in for exclusive slots. However the new suggestion merits consideration he added.

2. Roopaka Taala which is generally used in concerts is not 'employed' ('put' or 'applied') in the right manner. This has to be corrected. (T M Krishna was reported to have raised this issue - I don't have the matter verbatim)

The deliberations centred around these aspects: In the taala Alankaara paddhati, the typical roopaka has one dhrutam and one laghu as its anga. The Chatusra jati roopaka which is most popular is 'put' as 'two adi and one veecchu'. Though this serves the purpose of reckoning the beats, this is not in order. The observations of the expert committee members, president of the forum Sri Trichy Sankaran and select opinions from members of the audience tended to suggest that the roopaka which is better employed as 'one adi and two viral' is virtually 'Tisra ekam'.

But when did the 'mishandling' of roopaka start - queried one. To this, Smt Vedavalli very appropriately responded that this could be a fall out of the Bhajana or namasankeertana paddhati where the 'impact' of a taala was more important than the methodolgy!

Several interesting rounds followed but the issue apparently did not reach any conclusion!

3. To try Veena as accompaniment (instead of Violin)in concerts ('Sruti' Janaki )

The issue was very clear and understandable. To this, it was generally observed that violin has succeeded as the best accompaniment in view of its ability to produce continuous / sustaining notes to support the lead artist. One from the audience pointed out that M Balamuralikrishna has had Veena as pakkavadyam. Elsewhere Veena did make a mark only in Veena-Venu-viloin concerts once popularised by the Lalgudi-Ramani-Venkataraman team. The sruti adopted by the lead artist may also pose problems for veena accomapniment because Veena best impresses in a 2-3 kattai pitch. Otherwise it will necessitate replacement of strings of different gauge etc.

Some recollected the Veena accompaniment by KS Narayanaswami for MS. "But those were not regular concerts"-one among the audience pointed out.

Vidwan T R Subramaniam, though on a different perspective, remembered that Veena maestro late S Balachander would be the last person to see the Veena in a secondary role on the dais.

(In a sideline I thought of Dr Padma subramaniam who always uses Veena in her music team for dance)

Given the sanctity of the divine instrument and as a method to preserve its importance, it can be tried on a experimental basis wherever feasible, many felt. Another pertinent yet adoptable suggestion by a rasika was to have veena for accompanying flute where pitch may not be a proble. Point to note!


I REQUEST OUR FORUMITES WHO WERE PRESENT AT THE OPEN FORUM TO SUPPLEMENT WITH THEIR INPUTS / Correct wherever my inferences have gone wrong. Thanks

[mohan]

Thanks Sivaramakrishnan for this report. Will be good to hear on others who attended. I am particular interested in the rupaka tala discussion. Even for some kritis in vilamba kAla rupaka tAla such as sri subramanyAya namastE and mA ramanan, artistes tend to just use two beats and one wave where the conventional one dhrutam and one laghu could be used.

[vasanthakokilam]

Thanks Sivaramakrishnan. I did not even know that such an open forum existed. Good to know.

Regarding the tala reckoning, a more insightful question is: "In what way it matters which way rupaka is reckoned?"

[KNV]

Thanks for the post. Actually I would love to see Academy imposing certain conditions on Artists.

1. Everyone should have a tambura player. Give one best Tambura player prize in Sadas.Academy should pay tambura artists.
2. Every artist should have a upapakka vadyam (either Ghatam or Kanjira). This is to encourage these artists in larger numbers.
3. Every artist must give the program list except those performing in morning slot. The programme list can be given daily to the rasikas.
4. The list can be circulated among artists to avoid repetition of atleast main ragam & RTP. Infact there can be online bidding for main ragam & RTP ragam amongst artists! I was tired of listening 7 Karaharapriya & 4 Kamboji.
5. The Kutcheri padadathi set by Ariyakudi shall be strictly followed. Except for TMK I am sure all others would agree to this suggestion.
6. The programme list must have atleast one composition of Trinity,Swati Titrunal & a Tamil Composer.
7. Every artist must start the concert with a varnam.
8. Every artist must sing either a viruttam or Javali or padam.
9. No one is singing Tillana. Therefore this shall be the last item. Someone like Abishek can compose brilliant Tillanas.So this will pave the way for new composers.
10.Selection of artists shall be only on merit. It may even be from the same family or school.Only merit shall be considered.
11. Academy should introduce Harikatha Series like dance series for 1 week after music season.
12. The sale of season ticket shall be streamlined. It was total confusion on 2nd Dec,
KNV

[Nick H]

Every artist should have a upapakka vadyam (either Ghatam or Kanjira)

Or morsing!

[vainika]

But when did the 'mishandling' of roopaka start - queried one. To this, Smt Vedavalli very appropriately responded that this could be a fall out of the Bhajana or namasankeertana paddhati where the 'impact' of a taala was more important than the methodology!

Could a reason also be the speeding up of kritis, making three beats less tiresome to mark than six?

I recall a similar explanation being advanced for conversion of kRtis set in tis'ra jAti tripuTa into mis'ra chApu.

[thanjavooran]

Sivaramakrishnan Avl,
Many thanx for the great coverage.
Thanjavooran 02 01 2012

[bilahari]

Thanks for the elaborate account, Sivaramakrishnan.

The rUpaka issue is something I have wondered about too, though like VK, I wonder what significance it has? If the reason is speeding up of kritis, I wonder if this is why the popular way of keeping tALa is more difficult for me with chowka kAla compositions like cEta SrI.

For the veena as an accompaniment matter, I do not see why the vINa has to necessarily be an accompanying instrument. If the argument is that it might popularise the instrument, then I cannot say it has really worked for the violin because aside from the violin trinity, not many solo recitals of contemporary violinists are held or well attended. The continuity of tone that the violin offers is an important advantage, I think. Also, the vINa seems to get drowned even in violin-veena-venu trios because of this. However, the vINa is peerless when it comes to really articulating gamakas. Of course, these nuances too might be drowned by the voice or more likely the bad acoustics in the hall.

[anandasangeetham]

may not be the right arguement but ..does the easy portability of the instrument an advantage to violin? also you can carry two viloins in one case easily (for different srutis)...and since veena playing has a tala plucking feature will it not affect the vocalist?

[chitravina ravikiran]

Happy new year to all rasikas!

2. Roopaka Taala which is generally used in concerts is not 'employed' ('put' or 'applied') in the right manner.

I intended to attend the session but had to miss out in the last minute.

1. This statement may be based on the authority of some treatise but even a cursory analysis of practical music will establish that the manner in which the tala is being displayed is the right manner for numerous compositions, subsequently composed by composers including the Trinity, OVK, Patnam Subramanya Iyer, Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar, Vasudevachar and scores of others.

2. One may argue that ALL such compositions were slow pieces but that would be futile since we have sishya paramparas of great classical composers who have handed down fairly authentc versions. In the case of slow pieces such as Sri subramanyana namaste, Manasa guruguha, it's definitely far more majestic to put the tala as Tishra Ekam with 2 kalais than as Dhrtam/Chaturashra Laghu in 1-kalai.

3. But the original form of that tala is suited for a composition like Muttukkumaraiyane (Shankarabharanam) where the accent clearly falls on the 3/6 beat in a fairly slow tempo making it renderable in 2-kalais.

4. Looking at it one way, the Roopaka tala as being displayed today is an abridged version similar to other chapu talas to accommodate the faster tempo creations. Since numerous complex theories have been put forth to explain chapu talas, the simple logical explanation has sometimes been overlooked, which I have given below.

Chapu talas are just abridged versions of larger talas that highlight only sa-shabda kriyas (beats) and do not specify the nishabda kriyas (finger counts and palm reversals). Thus,

Mishra Chapu is the 3 beats (falling on 1, 4 and 6th units) of Tishra Triputa in the ratio of 3:2:2
Khanda Chapu = 3 beats (falling on 1, 5 and 7th units of Chaturashra Mathya - not Mishra Jhampa - as most people have documented in the ratio of 2:1:2 (or 4:2:4).

5. Historically, there have been Chapu talas for even talas such as Khanda Ata but these are not in vogue today.

6. This is not merely a product of bhajana sampradaya. Even dance forms have employed chapu talas like the above. One of the reasons we have lots of confusion in recent times about such issues is that many musicologists and music historians gradually deviated away from a study of similar or contrasting practices in dance and other related forms of music, which were much closer in the pre-trinity era. So, while it is not wrong to quote music treatises, we must look for parallels or contrasts in dance works of those times too, so as to get a more wholesome picture. The fact is many practices from one would have percolated down to the other.

This has to be corrected.

Again, 'correcting' this would result in hundreds of compositions falling out of sync with the melo-rhythmic intent of the composer with accents appearing on insignificant units of the tala, which in turn will make the music sound quite weird.

[poincare]

4. The list can be circulated among artists to avoid repetition of atleast main ragam & RTP. Infact there can be online bidding for main ragam & RTP ragam amongst artists! I was tired of listening 7 Karaharapriya & 4 Kamboji.
KNV

May be I dont go to all the concerts in MA and Sanjay's concert is the only one I get to go (rather get tickets for) and I love his Kamboji... What do you say to a person like me?

5. The Kutcheri padadathi set by Ariyakudi shall be strictly followed. Except for TMK I am sure all others would agree to this suggestion.
KNV

Why did the carnatic music start with Ariyakudi? In what way is Balavinavee inferior in terms of music to Sri Subramaiyana Namaste. Ariyakudi's concert format may be your taste and in fact a good one.. But in SHOULD NOT be the norm. It was a style created by a legend but music is far greater than that.

6. The programme list must have atleast one composition of Trinity,Swati Titrunal & a Tamil Composer.
KNV

Where do you draw the line here. What about Kannada composers, I think Purandaradasa is senior to the first too and so is Annamacharya. The point is one cannot restrict the artist with ones own likes and dislikes.

7. Every artist must start the concert with a varnam.
KNV

Really, why? Please dont tell me this is to ease the voice, If so please sing the varnam at home before the concert or in the car and not on stage.

8. Every artist must sing either a viruttam or Javali or padam.
KNV

What about other forms, Shabdam, Jatiswaram, Padavarnam, again where do you draw the line. May be I dont like padams, too erotic for my naive ears.

9. No one is singing Tillana. Therefore this shall be the last item. Someone like Abishek can compose brilliant Tillanas.So this will pave the way for new composers.
KNV

Let us say I hate tillanas and would rather listen to thirupigal or a devarunama as the last item.. Oooo no I cannot because tillana has to be the last item. We should restrict the concert format so that "Abishek can compose brilliant Tillanas in the future" you got to be kidding me right, So you dont think Abishek can compose a varnam or a beautiful Keertanai. Really that is the reason for tillanas

10.Selection of artists shall be only on merit. It may even be from the same family or school.Only merit shall be considered.
KNV

Fantastic idea, but how do you plan to do that. Entrance exams for musicians and finally the names of the qualified will be posted on MA's walls. Isn't merit in Carnatic music some what subjective. Who decides? If it was left majority of people who post on Rasikas TMK or Aurna Sairam would have no chance. If it was left to "SOME" 60+ mamis and mamas they would want Aruna Sairam singing "Kurai ondrum Illai" as the main piece. ( I am going to get into trouble for this statement so the "SOME" is important ) If it was left to some of my friends Jesudas would be presented as the main artist for all 10 days.

I somehow feel that there is a general feeling that the artist should perform for the rasikas. The rasika should be pleased, happy, the artist should not in any way defy "his/her taste" in music. Simply such a thing is not possible, because what you think is great music could mean nothing to the person next to you. There should be artistic freedom and the artist should know how to use it. The rasikas can/will have opinions, taste, preferences but should be aware that their choice is not the only one. Finally carnatic music is much much much much much older than Ariyakudi format and should not be THE norm. no how... no way.

[VK RAMAN]

poincare - good points and ended with a sarcasm on Jesudas why?

[poincare]

poincare - good points and ended with a sarcasm on Jesudas why?

Thanks Raman, but really it was not a sarcasm, I do have friends who think only what Jesudas sings is carnatic music.

[VK RAMAN]

Jesudas is 70+ years old with 30K to 40K songs recorded. He has millions of fans. He learned music from Chembai and there is bound to be a prejudice towards Jesudas who without regard to the faith in which he was brought up sang more CM and hindu devotional songs than we can claim any one in our hindu faith in south India. I rest the matter. So your remark on Jesudas was not in good spirit.

[ram]

<<This has to be corrected.>>

Again, 'correcting' this would result in hundreds of compositions falling out of sync with the melo-rhythmic intent of the composer with accents appearing on insignificant units of the tala, which in turn will make the music sound quite weird.

Dear Ravikiran sir,

Based on my understanding of the session, what was proposed by Shri T.M. Krishna and discussed by the panel was to just provide a different name (other than rupakam) to the "two beats + one wave" format of putting that talam and let rupakam refer only to the original rupakam. If I remember correctly, there was no thrust on doing away with the "two beats + one wave" structure.

I am not sure if any conclusion was reached on the name itself.

[poincare]

Dear Raman, I think there is a little misunderstanding here. In my post I just indicated the taste of some of my friends for whom Jesudas is the only person who can sing carnatic music. Where have I said anything bad about his music/vidwat, and I go on to say the people should be respectful of everyones taste. In fact I was hinting at the fact the Jesudas never gets a chance to perform at the MA and may be there are a set of people who might like that.. So I dont quite understand why my remark on Jesudas was not in good spirit.

[VK RAMAN]

Thank you poincare.

[vasanthakokilam]

1. This statement may be based on the authority of some treatise but even a cursory analysis of practical music will establish that the manner in which the tala is being displayed is the right manner for numerous compositions, subsequently composed by composers including the Trinity, OVK, Patnam Subramanya Iyer, Poochi Srinivasa Iyengar, Vasudevachar and scores of others.

2. ...... it's definitely far more majestic to put the tala as Tishra Ekam with 2 kalais than as Dhrtam/Chaturashra Laghu in 1-kalai.

3. But the original form of that tala is suited for a composition like Muttukkumaraiyane (Shankarabharanam) where the accent clearly falls on the 3/6 beat in a fairly slow tempo making it render-able in 2-kalais.

"This has to be corrected."

Again, 'correcting' this would result in hundreds of compositions falling out of sync with the melo-rhythmic intent of the composer with accents appearing on insignificant units of the tala, which in turn will make the music sound quite weird.

Coloring in the quote above is mine.

I am trying to put some definitional rigor for words like 'right', 'majestic', 'accent', 'melo-rhythmic intent' 'significant and insignificant beats' etc.

One of my hobbies while listening to songs is to figure out the tala by myself, including the eduppu, 1 kaLai vs 2 kaLai and also picking a 'best fit' or 'right' one among potential talas (with different anga structures but with the same cycle count ). In fact, all three parameters come into play. Sometimes, there are multiple 'best fit's by changing both the eduppu and anga structure ( and sometimes kaLai ). But what is the criteria for determining the best fit. My own model is based on, borrowing your terminology, "melo-rhythmic intent with accents appearing on significant units of the tala". What are the significant units of the tala? I usually take it as the starting beat of the various Angas, with the beat on the arudhi matched with the heaviest accent. Also, a lot of 8 beat songs have an alternating strong and weak beats and they can all be minimally considered to be a 2 beat thala. People sometimes derisively call simple laya patterns as 'thakadhimi thakajunu'. It is true it is simple but it may have come about because of the simple laya structure of compositions, with alternating strong and weak accents.

This works a lot of times but not always.

But there does not seem to be any uniform agreement ( with any basis on treatises ) if this model is actually part of our system or not. Whether the mental model of the composers is anything close to this, i.e. whether composers had such an intent when composing.

Do composers really have such a melo-rhythmic intent of matching accents with start of angas and arudis?

Mishra Chapu is the 3 beats (falling on 1, 4 and 6th units) of Tishra Triputa in the ratio of 3:2:2
Khanda Chapu = 3 beats (falling on 1, 5 and 7th units of Chaturashra Mathya - not Mishra Jhampa - as most people have documented in the ratio of 2:1:2 (or 4:2:4).

I like this very much.

I understand how misra chapu can fall along these lines but I am confused about kanda chapu. It is typically kept as tap-silence, tap-tap-silence. How do I map it to 2:1:2 ?

[semmu86]

I am not sure if any conclusion was reached on the name itself.

They were talking that it could be renamed as either "thisra chApu" or "rUpaka chApu", and before any conclusion was reached, Mr. Pappu went to the next topic

[Nick H]

If the academy wants to talk talam, it might wonder about the disruptive behaviour of so many audience members. It might fail to find any authority saying the the audience must slap the thigh or clap in the ear of the person in front of them. Ruppaka talam is the worst. Slap, slap ___, slap, slap, ___! Let's revise it to three waves, so I can listen to a ruppaka-talam piece in, errr... peace!

Oh well, the old hobby horse was getting bored in the stable: thought I'd give him an outing! ]

[chitravina ravikiran]

But what is the criteria for determining the best fit - what are the significant units of the tala? I usually take it as the starting beat of the various Angas, with the beat on the arudhi matched with the heaviest accent. Also, a lot of 8 beat songs have an alternating strong and weak beats and they can all be minimally considered to be a 2 beat thala

When hearing audios, it can take sometime to figure out the tala initially. Some compositions may seem quite non-accented at least initially. I have sometimes played audios of my guru, Brindamma's renditions of some padams that have left many accomplished artistes guessing about the tala. At such times, it may be useful to follow the accents of the mrdanga vidwan who saw the tala and followed it.

Do composers really have such a melo-rhythmic intent of matching accents with start of angas and arudis?

Good Q. Not all do. Even among the few who do, it is not so always in a tangible, conscious manner. However, in the case of most quality vaggeyakaras like Tyagaraja, MD, OVK, SS, Papanasam Sivan etc, their instinctive grasp of all 3-dimensions - melody, rhythm and lyrics has enabled them to create accents in several places within a given piece which clearly suggests the tala. OVK has managed to do this even in certain talas like Khanda Dhruvam, Khanda triputa in some pieces. Let me give 3 basic ways of handling talas:

1. Accent at least some beats of the anga. For eg: a line in Khanda triputa can clearly accent the opening and the 6th beat (after the laghu). OVK and occasionlly Tyagaraja have used this technique.

2. Bisect (or further sub-divide) a tala and create even meters within it. Most of Dikshitar's creations (esp madhyamakalas) follow this approach even in talas like Chatushra Dhruva, he'd prefer to project it as 7+7 rather than 4+2+4+4. OVK's has also used this approach in a few compositions.

3. Compose random patterns within a cycle or two but yet accent significant beats now and then. Almost all composers do this.

My own 35-tala composition set started out as an experiment on how to approach talas in an unambigious, yet varied manner but create emotive and soulful music too. I learnt a lot in the process.

renamed as either "thisra chApu" or "rUpaka chApu

A few vidwans have suggested these several years ago in various discussions but then the question cropped up - what would be done to the documented evidence of composers of the calibre of Trinity, OVK and a host of others who have created music in this kind of 2-beat plus wave tala and specified as rUpaka? It is a clear proof that this term had gained acceptance in practice even then. This overwhelming practical and performing tradition had to be seriously taken into consideration since we are talking about mega-vaggeyakaras whose scholarship is beyond compare. If one wants to get seriously technical, the technical name for Adi tala - Tudeeyakam has to be brought back too!

It is typically kept as tap-silence, tap-tap-silence. How do I map it to 2:1:2 ?

It is visualising the ratios - basically 4 + 2 + 4 units of C Mathyam can be mapped to 2 (tap plus silence), 1 (tap) and 2 (tap plus silence). Every unit of KC = 2 units of C mathyam, when rendered very, very fast. Basically, KC is nowhere related to Jhampa of any kind, least of all Mishra Jhampa which is 7+1+2.

[Ranganayaki]

A lot of the technical discussion on taala goes over my head.I was mystified by the question about mapping to 2:1:2, for example. To me it is clearly 2:1:2, and I would imagine that making it 4:1:4 would SLOW it down, but Ravikiran says "when sung very fast".. I feel lost in this discussion .

I'm here just to ask about Sri Ravikiran's compositions. I had never heard of them (excuse me for my ignorance) till I listened to the first part of the lecture (links posted on rasikas) on a comparative study of OVK and T. I am especially intrigued, Ravikiran, by your mention of a 35 taala composition. Where can one listen to these compositions?

I have never heard of any compositions even in two taalas. If a 35-taala composition is something like a "taala-maalika", then that sounds like true innovation to me, unlike the furore over the order of genres presented in a concert, which is at best a (welcome) shake-up, possibly (in my view) a relief from predictability.

It's been 10 hours since Ravikiran posted this, it seems, yet no one has said anything about innovation! No one has gone,"Wow!!!!!!" Am I missing something here? If I've grossly misunderstood something, or have said something silly, please excuse me.

[Enna_Solven]

It's been 10 hours since Ravikiran posted this, it seems, yet no one has said anything about innovation! No one has gone,"Wow!!!!!!" Am I missing something here? If I've grossly misunderstood something, or have said something silly, please excuse me.

I keep quiet when I have no clue about what someone is saying. I bet I have company

[vasanthakokilam]

Ranganayaki: I read it late last night, found it very interesting but I did not occur to me to make a big deal of it. A 35 tala composition is grand indeed. You have done the right thing to highlight it and seek more info. That is the flip side of being too good like Sri. Ravikiran, people like me assume only great things to come out of him!!

BTW, taala malikas themselves are not new. The Suladis ( which go back a few centuries ) are in different talas. So Ravikiran is safe from 'innovation' attacks.

On a tangential note, some one wrote a few months back that they wished the songs in a particular concert were in different talas so 'they can tap their feet differently'. I think such notions arise out of some deep misconceptions about the role of tala in structuring such rhythmic aesthetics.. Ravikiran, in answering my questions, has addressed some of that as to what a tala does and what it does not. ( Thanks Ravikiran. )

It is the layam and the nadai of the composition that imparts immediately feel-able ('tapping your foot') rhythmic aesthetics. Talas provide a high level framework which does have an effect but to a causal listener different talas may not impart any new rhythmic information at all. That is, the wrong notion is, just because a composition is in a different tala, it is going to sound drastically different and just because a composition is in the same tala, it is going to sound the same rhythmically.

[Always_Evolving]

. If a 35-taala composition is something like a "taala-maalika", then that sounds like true innovation to me

They are 35 distinct pieces corresponding to each of the Talas: http://ravikiranmusic.com/35Talas.htm

Incidentally many of you would know that Ravikiran is a prolific composer and has over 500 pieces to his credit in a huge variety of compositional forms, ragas, talas and many are part of opera/ dance-dramas.

[uday_shankar]

Incidentally many of you would know that Ravikiran is a prolific composer and has over 500 pieces to his credit in a huge variety of compositional forms, ragas, talas and many are part of opera/ dance-dramas.

I may be accused of bias in this but I've found the few compositions I've heard performed to be uniformly of exceptionally high caliber. They should be cherished and performed frequently.

[Ranganayaki]

They are 35 distinct pieces corresponding to each of the Talas: http://ravikiranmusic.com/35Talas.htm .

Always, Thank you for clearing that up. Wouldn't it have been clearer for Sri Ravikiran to have said "My 35 compositionS in all taalas?"

I can't believe, VK, that the word "innovation" is bandied about so much, and it's sad that artists need to be wary of " 'innovation' attacks" as you put it!!

EnnaSolven, it seems I am a little unlike you..

Vasanthakokilam, every word of your post was interesting and informative (to me), thanks so much !

[arunk]

Shri. Ravikiran,

What do you think about the mapping between khanda-capu (taka+takita) and tisra-rupakam (2+3) instead of to catusra-matya? It seems similar to the mapping between misra-capu (takita-takadimi) and tisra-triputa (3+(2+2) = 3+4).

Arun

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Semmu, thanks for recollecting the final phase of the forum deliberations on rUpaka thus:
"They were talking that it could be renamed as either "thisra chApu" or "rUpaka chApu", and before any conclusion was reached, Mr. Pappu went to the next topic"

Just before Pappu Rao led the proceedings to the next topic, I 'ventured' to invite the attention of the forum to the previous topic (exclusive slots for percussion) wherein the forum tended to conclude that a lot of awareness is needed among rasikas on laya topics and hence such slots wont fit in. That be the case, wouldn't renaming rUpaka as "thisra chApu" or "rUpaka chApu" confuse the rasika?- I asked. A few remarks for and against started flowing from the audience.

Perhaps Sri. Rao sensed trouble if not 'challenge to decorum' and moved on to the next topic.

However I am happy to get a lot of inputs from Sri Ravikiran and some tangible decisions could be arrived at in rasikas forum!

[vasanthakokilam]

Perhaps Sri. Rao sensed trouble if not 'challenge to decorum' and moved on to the next topic.
However I am happy to get a lot of inputs from Sri Ravikiran and some tangible decisions could be arrived at in rasikas forum!

Nice of you to say that. Every day is an Open Forum here and with it comes both good and bad. All good in this thread.

[vasanthakokilam]

"It is typically kept as tap-silence, tap-tap-silence. How do I map it to 2:1:2 ?"

It is visualising the ratios - basically 4 + 2 + 4 units of C Mathyam can be mapped to 2 (tap plus silence), 1 (tap) and 2 (tap plus silence). Every unit of KC = 2 units of C mathyam, when rendered very, very fast. Basically, KC is nowhere related to Jhampa of any kind, least of all Mishra Jhampa which is 7+1+2.

Thanks Ravikiran. This explanation for kanda chapu nicely fits in with the model you stated earlier
"Chapu talas are just abridged versions of larger talas that highlight only sa-shabda kriyas (beats) and do not specify the nishabda kriyas (finger counts and palm reversals)."

But now I am not clear about how the misra chapu mapped to trisra triputa fits in the sa-shabda kriya model? In misra chapu, as is typically done, tap tap silence tap silence tap silence, there are four taps ( sa-shabda kriyas ) but trisra triputa, as with all triputa, has only 3 sa-shabda kriyas.

2. Bisect (or further sub-divide) a tala and create even meters within it. Most of Dikshitar's creations (esp madhyamakalas) follow this approach even in talas like Chatushra Dhruva, he'd prefer to project it as 7+7 rather than 4+2+4+4.

Interesting. With that appraoch, he essentially normalizes all thalas with the same beat count and treats them similarly. Like, if he treats Kanda Ata tala like a 7+7 as well, then we can not tell from just listening to the song if it is Chatsra Dhruva or Kanda Ata. True?

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Well, based on the discussion so far, shall we continue to 'put' rUpaka as 'two slaps and one wave' (courtesy NickH)?


Only the nomenclature appears to be a challenge!

[chitravina ravikiran]

What do you think about the mapping between khanda-capu (taka+takita) and tisra-rupakam (2+3)

Khanda chapu in most compositions is still displayed with 3 beats while tishra rupakam has only 2. In practice, if we look at the speed of most compositions in KC as well as the kalpana swaras (except the slow tempo ones), we render 10 units per cycle. So, in reality, we are tapping to 4:2:4. (In fast renditions of pieces like Teerada vilaiyattu pillai, we can do away with the last beat as it may appear too frenzied.)

The credit for mapping KC to Ch' Matyam should go to my father and guru, Shri Narasimhan... (He also feels that Sankeerna chapu can be rendered better as an abridged version of Khanda Triputa though it would demand great skills to put it to practice.)

In misra chapu, as is typically done, tap tap silence tap silence tap silence, there are four taps

Actually, the second tap that you mention is an optional one that some artistes resort to for personal rhythmic comfort. It is never notated nor used by all artistes. One could liken this to the case where we subdivide a unit into 2 or more kalais in slower pieces to get a better feel of the tempo.

MD essentially normalizes all thalas with the same beat count and treats them similarly.

Yes, in many instances he tends to do that. But he was also a master at clearly showing clearly his intent in talas like Chaturashra Ekam by deliberately having a madhyamakala in pallavi that would only be 1/2 a cycle if rendered in Adi (Mahaganapatim - Nattai). But some of us 'normalise' that be rendering that part twice to force-fit it into Adi!

Only the nomenclature appears to be a challenge!

Not really... This has been the esatablished one in composing and performing tradition for several hundred years, just like the name - Adi.

[chitravina ravikiran]

Wouldn't it have been clearer for Sri Ravikiran to have said "My 35 compositionS in all taalas?"

My sentence in that post reads: "My own 35-tala composition set..."

[KNV]

Poincare

Full of sarcasm. Never mind.Without Rasikas what are Kutcheries for? The music season is a festival for 15 days. Atleast 20% of the audience attend 80% of the concerts in MA. Statistically that should be sufficient for my suggestion for variety in selection of main & RTP ragams in a festival. The very idea of MA asking for the list is to avoid repetition & provide variety.

My argument for following Ariyakudi format is simple. His goal was to ensure audience attention virtually every second by offering variety in his concerts. Variety in composers; language; kalapramanam(tempo); singing for the occasion (Ram Navami/Krishna Jayanthi/Navarthri/Sivarathri/Deity of the place etc..- I have experienced such presentations & have seen large no of rasikas enjoying); a sub main item of moderate proportion in raga alapana, niraval & swara singing; a central main item of elaborate alapana;niraval & swara singing & followed by a Tani. Trinity have a special place in CM & every artist knows a fairy good number of kritis . Swati Tirunal/Annamacharya/Purandar Dasar are great but not known to many of the artists. If included it will make it even more appealing. Ariyakudis structuring of post main is another beauty. In his concert the audience didn't walk out for Tani because they wanted to listen to his post main gems. A leading mridangist once mentioned that when he played for KVN (something which he learnt from his master) audience don't walk out for Tani because they wanted to listen to the beautiful Gopalkrishna Bharathi, Purandara Dasar, Arunachala Kavi,Vedanyakan Pillai,Viruttam, javali,padam,tillana, Tirupugazh, Tirupavai ( all accepted as concert worthy).... etc etc.

Is there not scope for innovation in Carnatic Music. There is. Infact every year the artist can present one new song of an established composer in MA. He can attempt new kalaprmanam depending on the composition. Semmangudi mama once told me that it was Ariyakudi who sang "Evarimata" in Kamboji in Thyagaraja Aradhana & thereafter everyone started singing as a main item in concerts. Such was the impact of his presentation of the kriti.

I don't look for any entertainment in Concerts. Everything mentioned above will be meaningless if a musician does not transcend the technical & intellectual realm & connect with the listener on a deeper level. That is what Ariyakudi did.

[KNV]

For argument sake one can dismiss anything in art by saying everything is subjective.

[Ranganayaki]

My sentence in that post reads: "My own 35-tala composition set..."

Oops, Ravikiran, missed "set". Sorry, and thanks. It's perfectly clear.

[KNV]

Poincare

Pl read Semmangudi mama article in Sruti Blog. I am reproducing the last sentence of the article

Carnatic music will retain its grandeur and depth despite temporary trends. There will always be a group of committed listeners and performers who will refuse to compromise on values. It will remain a small minority. So what? The classical arts have never had mass appeal.

Also read the last line of my post. That explains all your whys & why nots

KNV

[poincare]

Poincare
Full of sarcasm. Never mind.Without Rasikas what are Kutcheries for?

I absolutely disagree with this statements and I am afraid there are a few others who think this way. The rasikas are there to experience the art/music and the music should NOT be altered for the rasikas. Music shall and will prevail despite of the rasikas. Does the number of rasikas in a concert has any bearing to the quality of music? A perfect example are the morning session of MA. Art/music should be an ecstatic outpouring of ones self and rasikas are there to join this experience. This idea is echoed from Dikshitar to Mozart..

"I pay no attention whatever to anybody's praise or blame. I simply follow my own feelings." Mozart

Ofcourse the rasikas had the right to have his/her taste and whom they listen to..

Poincare
The music season is a festival for 15 days. Atleast 20% of the audience attend 80% of the concerts in MA. Statistically that should be sufficient for my suggestion for variety in selection of main & RTP ragams in a festival. The very idea of MA asking for the list is to avoid repetition & provide variety.

So you want to satisfy 20% of people and the rest 80% can miss a fantastic Mukari by artist A, because the 20% got a chance to listen to an OK Mukari by Artist B. Is this what you are implying? Do you think that two Mukari's by two different artist will be the same? if you do so I would like to listen to KVN's Kannada and Brindama's Kannada. As a matter of fact KVNs two separate rendition have differences.

Poincare
My argument for following Ariyakudi format is simple. His goal was to ensure audience attention virtually every second by offering variety in his concerts. Variety in composers; language; kalapramanam(tempo); singing for the occasion (Ram Navami/Krishna Jayanthi/Navarthri/Sivarathri/Deity of the place etc..- I have experienced such presentations & have seen large no of rasikas enjoying); a sub main item of moderate proportion in raga alapana, niraval & swara singing; a central main item of elaborate alapana;niraval & swara singing & followed by a Tani.

My objection was not to the popularity of Ariyakudi's format, but to "Rasikas_KNV" asking the Music Academy to force them as rules. Music cannot be restricted nor be put into a format. I simple see no point in starting with a Varnam nor see any objections to singing a Viriboni varnam as a mainpiece. In fact KVN has sung a pada varnam as a submain (Sumasayaka). "Rasikas_KNV" please tell me what is wrong in singing a Adi Okka nor a Balavinavee as main piece. Dont you think that some of these rare masterpieces need some attention? Why do we see padams as something that has to sung towards the end.

Poincare
Ariyakudis structuring of post main is another beauty. In his concert the audience didn't walk out for Tani because they wanted to listen to his post main gems. A leading mridangist once mentioned that when he played for KVN (something which he learnt from his master) audience don't walk out for Tani because they wanted to listen to the beautiful Gopalkrishna Bharathi, Purandara Dasar, Arunachala Kavi,Vedanyakan Pillai,Viruttam, javali,padam,tillana, Tirupugazh, Tirupavai ( all accepted as concert worthy).... etc etc.

Really! so if I understand your logic, "Today if any musicians presents a concert in the Ariyakudi format then people will NOT walk out during the Tani" I think I made my point. Do you think that people not walking out had something to do with Ariyakudi rather than the format. The second assumption is that people will stay for the postmain pieces such as tillana, tirupugazh. I would ask you take a look at the songlist posted by the fellow members, there are quite a few that stop right at or after the main piece.

Poincare
Is there not scope for innovation in Carnatic Music. There is. Infact every year the artist can present one new song of an established composer in MA. He can attempt new kalaprmanam depending on the composition. Semmangudi mama once told me that it was Ariyakudi who sang "Evarimata" in Kamboji in Thyagaraja Aradhana & thereafter everyone started singing as a main item in concerts. Such was the impact of his presentation of the kriti.

Do how do you know that people 10 years from now people will not sing Balavinavee as the main piece after listening to TMK. You are just shooting down the any innovation right at the start and forcing Aruiyakudi's concert format on everyone because you and may a bunch of us believe that it is the best. Is that fair? Do you think the evolution will take care of this? Dont you think that innovations is a part of music and the best/popular survives? (The best and the popular COULD be two different entities sometimes). If you dont believe that music has changed, please listen to some of the old recordings of "Maha Vaidhyanadha Iyer" and contemporary renditions of the same. Look at the notation in SSP and today's rendition.

Poincare
I don't look for any entertainment in Concerts. Everything mentioned above will be meaningless if a musician does not transcend the technical & intellectual realm & connect with the listener on a deeper level. That is what Ariyakudi did.

And Ariyakdi's format is not THE ONLY WAY this is achieved. "Ariyakudi's format" did not come into existence the first time Ariyakudi presented it. For it to become a style it takes sometime , so please give the same time to any other innovations and many may die. But you dont stop innovations with your 10 rules to MA.

Poincare
Carnatic music will retain its grandeur and depth despite temporary trends. There will always be a group of committed listeners and performers who will refuse to compromise on values. It will remain a small minority. So what? The classical arts have never had mass appeal.

I hope you read the above. Let not "Rasikas_KNV" decide with his 10 rules what should carnatic music be. It will take care of itself an let us NOT burry artistic freedom by narrow formatic walls.

[Sivaramakrishnan]

Recently I heard someone remarking that Tyagaraja has not employed Rupaka 2 kalai.

Is it so?

[KNV]

Poincare
There is something called 80-20 rule. According to this rule 80% effects come from 20% of the causes. A Music Series spread over 15 days with season ticket holders & members it is reasonable to apply the rule & expect that atleast the songs & ragams of main & RTP should not be repetitive. There are rasikas who sit through 3 concerts in a day (it could be as high as 50%) & it is painful to listen to the same ragam or songs however different the styles are.

For you artistic freedom & ecstatic outpouring is everything. For me rasikas ecstasy is the ultimate. Ariyakudi's popularity is not merely because of his music. It is his format(variety being the key) which is bringing atleast some crowd to CM. Padam, Javali including Suma Sayaka Pada Varnam ( to be used as medicine or side dish) all have a place in concert & cannot be a substitute for a Balagopala or Sri Subramanyaya Namste or O Rangasayi as main course. Nor you can have sweets like Enneramum or Krishnanee or Varugalamo in large quantities.

I can safely take a bet. The so called innovations in format and not on content will not have any following even 10 years later. I hope I will be alive to prove. For me MA is an institution for CM. Respecting its tradition like giving song list; adhering to time schedule; singing RTP in that order; following time tested formats must be followed. Fortunately 99% of the artists are still following.