Gangadishwaram Shankaram ... in Sindhu Bhairavi

[Sundar Krishnan]

2/4/12

I have listened to this song, sung by DKJ, accompanied by a fine Mridangam by UKS [don't know the file source now].
The language is Sanskrit.

I would like to have the Lyrics, TALam and alternate Ragams etc.

Thanks in Advance (TIA).

...

[Lakshman]

gangAdhIshvaram. rAgA: sindhubhairavi. Adi tALA. Guru Surajananda.

P: gangAdhIshvaram shankaram sangamEshvaram
A: angam ardhanArIshvaram shen jaTAdharam shivam
C: mangaLAkAram mahAdEvam mangaLa rUpam mahEshvaram
lingOdbhavam vaibhavam OmkAra nAdam sadAshivam

[classicallover]

Mr. Lakshman,

I suggest that you may please check the P and AP again. P is incomplete w.r.t. the verb - something like chintayeham, bhajeham, etc should come. In AP, what is "shen" ?

[Lakshman]

The posted lyrics are as found in the book. S.Kalyanaraman has sung it and the clip is available at sangeethamshare.org

[Amateur]

The lack of a verb is not strange. Purandaradasa's venkaTAcala nilayam does not have any either.

shen poses a bit of a problem. The nearest one could find in a dictionary is sham (sh as in shiva) meaning
something auspicious. Maybe it refers to the braided hair mentioned following this word.
With a stretch of
imagination it may even have been tam (meaning him) and in transliteration may have got changed.
More knowledgeable persons to provide clarification here

[Pratyaksham Bala]

shen poses a bit of a problem ...

IMHO 'shen jaTAdharam shivam' refers to 'shen-jaTai vaitta iRaivan' (செஞ்சடை வைத்த இறைவன்) as sung by Sundarar in tEvAram.

The term Shen-jaTai (செஞ்சடை), which occurs frequently in tEvAram songs, refers to the matted hair of Lord Shiva.

[classicallover]

Amateur & Bala,

This is a Samskritam composition. Any composition has to conform to certain matrix of rules without which it is incomplete definitely. So the Tamil meaning for shem or shen has no relevance. I also thought of "sham" but doesn't fit ( शं करोति इति शङ्कर: = sham karoti iti shankara: - this is the definition for the name Shankar ). "tam" or "tvam" were also considered but don't fit in the absence of the verb.

The lack of verb is certainly a defect which cannot be condoned. In Dasa's song also that portion of the song has ellipsed due to the vagaries of time. So that cannot be an example or justification for defective compositions. You cannot find such a thing in any of Dikshitar's kritis, can you ? Even the tala aavarti is incomplete because of the lack of lyric.

[hariharan]

Please refer http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5075 ... waram.html for the same Topic/thread.

Please listen to this song sung for a Dance programme. Here the singer sings "sangamEswaram shivam".
The link is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_HLcv1Nm4s

[classicallover]

Deleted duplicate.

[classicallover]

The song for the dance in the youtube video is of not much consequence as it is just an adaptation and hence cannot be considered as standard. I have consulted some other singers and pundits who agree with my viewpoint. I was told by one that the words sadA bhajEham are missing in the lyrics, which was seen/heard by him somewhere. That fits the talam too.

[Sundar Krishnan]

6/4/12

Shri Lakshman, Thanks for the Lyrics - in Post # 2.

Subsequently, however, there is some disc on the exact words. ...

...

[classicallover]

Sundar,

You must agree that since CM is very holy, singing unreasonable ragas or defective lyrics is a sin. It is betrayal to the composer and the language also since language is revered as a mother. Hence my steadfast attempt to be perfect lyrically.

[Sundar Krishnan]

8/4/12

Yes, we do need the correct lyrics from experts and Ref Books etc, and when in doubt, from knowledgeable discussions.

...

[Pratyaksham Bala]

... Bala,
This is a Samskritam composition. Any composition has to conform to certain matrix of rules without which it is incomplete definitely. So the Tamil meaning for shem or shen has no relevance ...

Yes, this is a Samskritam composition. But, I still feel that Guru Surajananda of Chennai might have opted for the term 'shen jaTAdharam' as 'shen jaTai' is so common in Tamil Shaiva poetry, especially tEvAram.

Incidentally, 'shen-jaTAdharA' is not unique to this composition! There are two more compositions with this term:-

1) Rukmani Ramani's composition:

P: ninnai nAn nambi vandEn pughal nIyE enru nidam undan
padam tannai vENDi nADinEn vADinEn pADinEn
A: annaiyum tandaiyum guruvum sakalarum sarvamum nIyanrO
Adi antamillA jyOtiyE pAdi piraiyai shUzhum shen jaTAdharA

2) Anai Vaidyanatha Iyer's composition:

P: candrashEkharA IshA IshA
sundareshvarA gaurIshA shen-jaTAdharA
C: andIvaNNanE shambhO aruL mukha nAda
svayambhO cintai tIra vandAi cidambarEshA kailAsA vAsA

[classicallover]

PB,

The compositions you have mentioned are purely Tamil songs. The term jataadhara has been borrowed from Samskritam into Tamil . The word jadai meaning " plaits " is a corruption of this word which in turn suffered further corruption due to Tamil fanaticism into "shadai" ( use of sa, ja, ha, etc., has been stopped since long in Tamil ). Shenjadai is a very common word used by many other composers if you don't know already, like Muthu Tandavar, G. Bharati, Marimutha Pillai, etc.. But this does not mean that the word Shen can be imported into Samskritam from Tamil like reverse osmosis. Absolutely it is not justified. Hence the subject composition is definitely defective in the absence of further clarifications / corrections.

[Pratyaksham Bala]

PB, Shenjadai is a very common word used by many other composers if you don't know already, like Muthu Tandavar, G. Bharati, Marimutha Pillai, etc..

I had mentioned that 'shen-jaTAdharA' is not unique to this composition' -- not 'shen-jaTai'!

[classicallover]

PB,

"Whatever I said for "shen jaTai" obviously applies to "shen jaTaadhara" too. No difference. Moreover, your post is irrelevant to the subject of this topic.

[keerthi]

You cannot find such a thing in any of Dikshitar's kritis, can you ? Even the tala aavarti is incomplete because of the lack of lyric.

While I am not endorsing the absence of a verb in this so-called SanskRt composition, either the presence of a Tamil term or the absence of verb are without precedent.

vide - M.DikSitar's ravikriyA piece -

hima giri kumāri īśvarī hēmāmbari hari sōdari sundari ||

kamala bhavādi vinuta bṛhadīśvari |kamanīya-tara guru guha vibhāsvari ||
vimala hṛdaya kamala vikāsa-kari | vidhu vahni ravi kriyā śakti-kari ||

No verb.

Also the pradarshini doesn't have a verb in the rAgacUDAmaNi song - swETagaNapatiM. Later versions use either vande or bhajeham, as a remedial step.

For the use of Tamizh terms - see 'alamElumangA'samEtam in srIvEnkatagirIsham and vElAyudha-dharam in the suraTi song on SaNmukha.

[classicallover]

Keerthi,

You have contradicted yourself . First you said ,

..... without precedent . vide ...

and then you try to justify with precedents !! ??

For the use of Tamizh terms - see 'alamElumangA'samEtam in srIvEnkatagirIsham and vElAyudha-dharam in the suraTi song on SaNmukha.

What would you want to imply here ?

Panini has clearly mentioned in his magnum book " ashtaadhyayi " that analysis of proper names need not and should not be done and they should be used as it is without morphing. "alamelumanga" is a proper name of a person. Similarly "vElaayudha" also is a proper name - but there is a controversy that Dikshitar composed this as "shuulaayudha" which is proper Samskritam.

In the Ravikriya kriti, the words are in Sambodhana Prathamaa Vibhakti. In this kriti, the presence of verb is not required or essential as per NaatyaShaastram and Giitashaastram since they are sung out of pure Bhaktirasa. The exclamatory word " Hey ( हे ) ! " must be imagined as a filler.

Would you think that an avataarapurusha like Dikshitar could have been imperfect, having studied so many shaastraas since childhood ?

[keerthi]

While I am not endorsing the absence of a verb in this so-called SanskRt composition, either the presence of a Tamil term or the absence of verb are without precedent.

1.I meant 'are not without precedent'. i stand corrected on that point.

2.As to dIkSitar's being without grammatical errors, I very reluctantly insist that there are several grammatical solecisms in the sanskrit of dIksitar, as there are in the telugu and sanskRt of tyAgarAja. My aim is not to pull up these great vAggEyakAras, but one can't make claims of their mAtu being inviolable, or infallible. Go to any telugu pandit or sanskRt vidwan, and they will point out the solecisms and unidiomatic usages in the lyric of dIkSitar and tyAgarAja.

I repeat, acknowledging their being human and vulnerable to error doesn't take away any of their greatness.

3. If you pANinIya claim about proper names is valid, why all the song and dance about shenjaDAdhara - treat it as a proper name, much like vElAyudha or alamElumangA..?

[Govindaswamy]

Keerthi
You have pointed out the lack of verb in M.D's song. This song seems to be nothing but a nAmAvaLi of the Goddess . All of M.D's songs are like this only. In this song as well as in most other songs of M.D the conjunctions (வேற்றுமை உருபுகள்) are not found. Is it because samskritam was only a temple/court language and not a spoken language nd hence descriptive sentences are not ued in poetry.
Govindaswamy

[classicallover]

Keerthi,

Just look at the lyrics given by Mr. Lakshman. The word "shen" occurs as a separate word. Hence I just asked simply " what is shen ? " in my post. Having written so much , you never attempted to answer this question !! Why don't you explain it ? All the drama that you mentioned is not my creation.

You may feel to have the right to insist that Dikshitar's & Thyagaraja's lyrics were defective, by comparing them with the language and standards of today, especially because you cannot go back 200 years to know the style of the language used then. 200 years is a very long time for a language, very much sufficient to undergo too many changes. Your right to judge them is definitely like calibrating an American or European instrument ( which has been certified using static primary standards ) with a secondary dynamic Indian standard. Moreover, you must remember Dikshitar studied the different types of Samskritam which prevailed before him and also during his stay in Kashi. Many usages in the previous centuries are not really in vogue now.

My other contention was that this kriti being in Dwitiya Vibhakti, certainly requires a verb and I suggested that " sadaa bhajeham " was very apt as felt by some people.

Govindaswamy,

You are right in one way. The kriti in Ravikriya mentioned by Keerthi is a glorified bhajan , a naamaavaLi in praise of the Goddess , in Sambodhana vibhakti as I mentioned earlier. But most other kritis do conform to rules of grammar admitted by a vast majority of pundits. You are wrong that Samskritam was not a spoken language. After the magnum opuses, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Bhagavadgita, Bhagavatam, etc., there are so many poetic books written by Kalidasa, Bharavi, Magha, Harsha, et. al. some of them using the most purified or concentrated form of Samskritam called ProuDha Samskritam. Even today Samskritam is spoken in some remote areas of Himachal Pradesh, Rajasthan, Nepal and Sikkim in a form that is different from what is spoken today but corroborates to a reasonable extent with the spoken language of previous generations.

It is said that during British rule, a team headed by Monier Williams was commissioned to propagate Christianity in India by countering Hinduism, the Vedas and black-marking Samskritam language. But as the commission started learning Samskritam , they realised the greatness of the language and fell in love with it. They ended up with printing a dictionary of their own.

[keerthi]

Hence I just asked simply " what is shen ? " in my post. Having written so much , you never attempted to answer this question !! Why don't you explain it ? All the drama that you mentioned is not my creation.

The issue has been responded to amply, inasmuch as shen-jaTAdhara is a tamizh epithet transplanted as a proper name into this 'samskRt' composition, matching the examples of vElAyudha and alamElumanga.

You may feel to have the right to insist that Dikshitar's & Thyagaraja's lyrics were defective, by comparing them with the language and standards of today, especially because you cannot go back 200 years to know the style of the language used then. 200 years is a very long time for a language, very much sufficient to undergo too many changes....

......Moreover, you must remember Dikshitar studied the different types of Samskritam which prevailed before him and also during his stay in Kashi. Many usages in the previous centuries are not really in vogue now.

I find this totally unacceptable. It is simply wrong - historically and otherwise. We have hundreds of kAvyas and technical treatises from the time of tyAgarAja and dIkSitar available, from the oriental libraries of Madras, Mysore and Travancore and the Saraswati mahal archive at Tanjore, which give us a very rich picture of the kind of idiomatic sanskrit, tamizh, telugu, marathi and Malayalam that was in vogue in the time of the Tanjavur trinity.

We have an abundance of samskRt religious and secular texts and even musical compositions from the last half millennium, from all parts of the country. tyAgaRAja and dIksitar did not compose in a literary or musical vacuum, they were very much part of a continuous tradition. Those who are interested can easily access that corpus of literary material to locate and evaluate the trinity in light of their contemporaries.

My other contention was that this kriti being in Dwitiya Vibhakti, certainly requires a verb and I suggested that " sadaa bhajeham " was very apt as felt by some people.

Why tweak with the composition..? If you find it defective, don't sing it. If you're fine with the verbless format sing as is!

[classicallover]

The composition was already tweaked and hence defective was my contention. Such singing is blasphemy and betrayal to the Mother. Maybe you are not designed to appreciate these emotions or sentiments.

I never said that the Trinity came into a vacuum or out of it , but they fortified and standardised to a great extent both the lyrical part as well as the bhakti and philosophy part and made it palatable by a larger section of the population in their way. Dikshitar & Thyagaraja are well acknowledged by pundits to have used some archaic phrases also not immediately heard now , but which were used before their period and hence may give the impression that their lyrics are defective.