संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

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classicallover
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संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by classicallover »

पठामि संस्कृतं नित्यं , वादामि संस्कृतं सदा | ध्यायामि संस्कृतं साम्यक् , वन्दे संस्कृतमातरम् ||

paThaami samskritam nityam, vadaami samskritam sadaa | dhyaayaami samskritam samyak , vande samskrita maataram ||

This is a humble & simple prayer to our original mother tongue of ancient times - Samskritam , venerated as a mother in conformity with our tradition.

1. What is Samskritam ? 2. Why Samskritam ? 3. How is it relevant today ? 4. Is it relevant only to the Vedas, the epics, the Upanishads, etc ? 5. Does it belong to only the upper castes of this society ?

The first two questions are answered by this true story :

Once GB Shaw asked a few of his friends and admirers to write the spelling of the word " Fish " and give the slips to him. Everyone wrote " Fish " in their slips. After going through all of those slips, he let out a loud guffaw and pronounced all the persons wrong. When asked why, he said & wrote the spelling as " Ghoti " on the blackboard and told the persons that , that was the correct spelling. That is how we speak English , he said. He was asked to justify the spelling. Then he told that the letters ' gh ' = f, as in enough, trough , etc. ; ' o ' = i , as in women ; ' ti ' = sh, as in nation, potion, etc.. So Ghoti should be the correct spelling which demonstrates the folly of speaking an inconsistent language like English. Then he said, " on the other hand, look at Samskritam, it is very beautiful, systematic and scientific in its approach to communication and also life in general, as it contains all sciences like physics, geography, chemistry, mathematics, history, astronomy, astrology, physiology, medicine, architecture, economics, etc., apart from various disciplines of engineering like , mechanical, civil, metallurgical, chemical, etc. . All this is in addition to the monumental collection of literature in poetry, dance, drama and music.

The third question's reply :

It is very well known the world over now, that Samskritam is the most scientifically suitable language for computer programming as deduced by scientists from NASA. This is because of its design of words and their evolution systematised by Panini.

The fourth question's reply :

Samskritam is certainly the language of the ancient times but has continued to hold its ground in some form or the other. Though it is billed as the " dead language " , it continues its presence in all of society having withstood the onslaught of so many centuries of invasions and cultural disturbances and inspite of conspiracies to kill it. Macaulay , the pioneer in introducing and spreading English education in India, promised to Queen Victoria that " I will see that the backbone of Indian culture is destroyed which lies in its deep rooted Hinduism which in turn has its basis in the studies of Samskritam." Once Samskritam is extinct, India will forever remain a part of the British Empire.

The fifth question's reply :

Samskritam was spoken throughout the ancient India, by all castes. Even now, about ten villages in India speak Samskritam , right from the beggar, cobbler upto the agricultural landlord. One of the villages figured in the Bajaj motorcycle advertisement : 100 kms. from Bangalore - one litre of petrol and you can find Samskritam village.

Hence learning Samskritam certainly contributes to the all round personality development of a person and disciplines him to exhibit exemplary behaviour in the society.

Nick H
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Nick H »

Reply 1,2 Many languages must have the advantage of not suffering from English's dreadful inconsistency, so your answer Number one is all about how bad English is, not about how good the other language may be. It amounts to English is not phonetic and we don't need Shaw to tell us that. You have not told us what or why

Reply 4 If it is so suitable for somputers, why is it not used for computers? Why do we not have samskrit compilers? Packages written in Samskrit? You have not told us anything about relevance

Reply 4 Again, you don't really answer your own question. And you go on to quote from a speech that a certian person probably never made, which is hardly relevant.

Reply 5 I guess you could be right!

Hence Hence? Hence follows things demonstrated, and you have not demonstrated in any way at all that learning samskrit "contributes to the all round personality development of a person and disciplines him to exhibit exemplary behaviour in the society."

I don't say you're wrong of course, just that, if one begins with questions, it is logical to answer them and draw conclusions accordingly. I'm told that Samskrit is a language of exemplorary logic and structure (hence the computer analogy being drawn), and I often hear of its great beauty and appropriateness for great and subtle poetry. I'm told, too, that like Latin and Greek, it is a necessary study for those who wish to understand the roots of many other languages. I was told quite recently, by an American scholar of the language, that she considers her study a godsend, not only in itself, but as an entry point into other Indian languages, even at the most basic level of being able to read those that share its scripts.

So plainly it can be recommended, and without bringing the likes of Shaw and Macauley into the question :)

archa
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by archa »

Most of the words in English are taken from either French or Latin, therefore the pronunciations conform to the original language ones. The spelling maybe totally irrelevant to the pronunciation. It was ridiculous of Bernard Shaw to have commented this way. He was a madcap, no doubt. He once said that English needs only 12 alphabets without realising its intrinsic beauties. One cannot go by what such eccentric people have said. Sanskrit has its own beauty and it is perhaps the greatest language and it is the only language in which you pronounce the letters as they are written. No other language has this quality including Tamil, Telugu, Kannada or Malayalam or any of the north indian languages. Therefore it is futile to find fault with English alone.

cmlover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by cmlover »

Welcome! Good beginning...
Along with Nick I also wish to know why computer experts have not adopted Sanskrit as a programing language?
The Sanskrit grammer is not perfect since Panini has lots of exceptions to the rules in his sutras.
Neither is sanskrit math friendly as you may find reading "Lilavati".

Sanskrit can be very equivocal - sometimes ridiculous.
example:
Take the sentence
राजायमपुत्रः। which on the face of it means that the king is the son of God of death (Yama).
When you dissolve the sandhi what is meant is:
राजा अयं अपुत्रः ॥ That (poor) king is without a child!
The sandhi, required in sanskrit is most confusing and at times can give opposite meaning. Sanskrit is nice for literary works and even poetic compositions (musical?), but not for everyday communication (especially in the written form).

It will be nice if you share your experiences..

Nick H
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Nick H »

I also wish to know why computer experts have not adopted Sanskrit as a programing language?
That wasn't really what I was asking --- but pointing out that something that may have been referred to as an analogy, perhaps, is being taken literally, and it is not.

I'd hate anyone to think I was lining up against you, clasicallover, or any of the other very many sa[mn]skrit scholars here. Even in my ignorance, I have no doubt of the credentials of the language --- but, I'm sorry to say that, scholar or not, clasicallover does not make a good sale here, because his assertions and arguments don't add up. No doubt about his enthusiasm and sincerity, but about his logic and presentation.

As for the details, I leave that to y'all (as they say on your continent) and slink away. As confessed elsewhere, I am a dunce with language.

(And GBS was very great, in his field. Let's leave him in that field!)

vasanthakokilam
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by vasanthakokilam »

I also wish to know why computer experts have not adopted Sanskrit as a programing language?
There was a time when there was a lot of interest. It is still there in some quarters.

At one point, the interest was in natural language processing. The tide is shifting in that field with the big data movement in machine learning. I do not want to go too far in that direction.

But my interest in Sanskrit recently got a big boost when I learned about how Sanskrit deals with 'Collections'. As many of you know, that is bread and butter for computer scientists and related epistemology and database design. One important aspect of dealing with collections is cardinality. Meaning, is there one, two, three, ...., countably many, uncountably many in the collections and how different such collections relate to each other etc. These are all solved problems in computer science, especially in logical datbase design. As a simple but prototypical example: Students and Courses. Both are collections, there are many in each. And they relate to each other in a many to many fashion. That is, a student takes many courses and a course is taken by many students. The standard engineering practice is to introduce an intermediate collection to break that Many to Many into two One to Many relationships. In this case, it will be called Enrollment which represents a particular student taking a particular course. And it is a convenient place to associate the grade obtained by that student in that course. Without this, it is unnatural to store this grade with either the student or with the course. It truly a property of the relationship between Students and courses. Similar such simple and fundamental things are found in today's E-Commerce in another great prototypical example of Purchase Orders and Items.

Anyway, these are all well understood in computer science and fairly elementary.

Given this background, I was blown away by the methodical treatment of collections in Sanskrit. My source of info is from this blog:
http://uttishthabharata.wordpress.com/2 ... -sanskrit/

Please read the full blog and see if it all makes sense. Since I do not know Sanskrit, I had to take what he writes without critical evaluation. It is not quite about all the stuff about collections and relationships I wrote above in the exact same way but Sanskrit's logical treatment of such collections are at the fundamental natural language level and that is how I was relating them to computer science concepts. It is possible that I am over interpreting it and as a result over-selling it.

Nick, you should be able to get a feel for this point, even though some of the examples use the devanagari script. Even I was struggling with that a bit.

As motivation, here are some snippets and teasers.
===========
....
1) Three things must be done before dying. => त्रीणि कर्तव्यानि प्राङ्मरणात्।
2) A group of boys is playing. => एके बालाः खेलन्ति।
3) Ponds of water are drying. => जलानि शुष्यन्ति।
All the above translations have a striking feature in common. The Sanskrit version of each sentence is missing some key word(s) of its English counterpart.

In (1), the Sanskrit version does not contain the word for things.
In (2), the Sanskrit version does not contain the word for group.
In (3), the Sanskrit version does not contain the word for ponds.

Let’s now try to understand, why the seemingly indispensable words in the English versions of the sentences are redundant in the Sanskrit counterparts.
==========

Nick H
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Nick H »

don't... mention... the... word... few!

]:) ]:)

Possibly before the days of databi (as I like to think of them), I heard that human minds only count to three, and that one particular culture has a counting system that goes ONE... TWO... THREE... LOTS.

Makes sense to me. :$

Speaking of small numbers, where does zero turn up in all of this.

Your basic computer-science examples are interesting indeed, and all the more so because, as I read about students and courses, I realised that the question would baffle me. Of course, I obviously never did database design...

I'm tempted to assume that Sankrit makes people think --- but then, you guys are thinking people anyway, and even the structure of my own mongrel language can be intelectually stimulating.

cmlover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by cmlover »

VK
Thx for the ref. I'll go through it at leisure.
Incidentally redundancy is not always a bane.
We have 100 billion neurons most of which are unused!
Also to boot we have two of the important organs which is a boon indeed.
Isn't it true that computer designers build in redundancy to defend against failure?

Note also that Tamil independently shares the laconic crispness with sanskrit...

vasanthakokilam
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by vasanthakokilam »

>Isn't it true that computer designers build in redundancy to defend against failure?

Yes, always so for any serious production deployment.

But read that blog, he is making a different point related to what I wrote before. Take your time. As I wrote, I may be over enthusiastic about it and hence over selling it, but if what he wrote is indeed true and more or less general, that is extremely impressive.

sureshvv
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by sureshvv »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
As motivation, here are some snippets and teasers.
===========
....
1) Three things must be done before dying. => त्रीणि कर्तव्यानि प्राङ्मरणात्।
2) A group of boys is playing. => एके बालाः खेलन्ति।
3) Ponds of water are drying. => जलानि शुष्यन्ति।
All the above translations have a striking feature in common. The Sanskrit version of each sentence is missing some key word(s) of its English counterpart.

In (1), the Sanskrit version does not contain the word for things.
In (2), the Sanskrit version does not contain the word for group.
In (3), the Sanskrit version does not contain the word for ponds.

==========
(1) "things that must be done" -> karthavyani

(2) "Eke" seems highly suspect. Is it an adjective qualifying balaaha?

(3) English sentence should be "Ponds are drying".

cmlover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by cmlover »

1) त्रीणि कर्तव्यानि प्राङ्मरणात्। Three (to be) done before dying
2) एके बालाः खेलन्ति। Together boys playing
3) जलानि शुष्यन्ति। Waters drying

very little or no redundancy!
The extra words are just tautology!
English can be just as brief. GBS asked the Theater owner about the success of Pygmalion by sending a note with just '?'
The owner replied '!'.

Nick H
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Nick H »

Wet boys [to be] dried. Or dyed!

One can take this reduction too far. English often leaves things out, and it said that they are understood. Thus we often break the rule that a sentence must have, at least, a subject, a verb and an object. But like the tonic note in another thread, the brain provides the missing part although it is not spoken.

If '3' is clear in the sanskrit, then it really is a miracle of compressed information: "waters drying," in English, leaves too much not understood.

classicallover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by classicallover »

Whether you are lining up against or not, Nick, it doesn't matter to me. But, for the presentation, it was just a starter and many things have to be told even more for it to be a demonstration ( especially for you ).

Realising the importance of Samskritam, (1) the Germans started broadcasting news in Samskritam in 1964 when our Govt. was sleeping. (2) NASA deputed 75 scientists to study the languages of the world for sending messages to outer space. They concluded that Samskritam was the best since its words incorporate the gender, number and tense especially as a capsule. There is beauty in the brevity as also utility. (3) Too many ( I am told the no. is more than 45 ) universities in USA are teaching Samskritam at Doctoral level . (4) Some schools in England have made learning of Samskritam compulsory with the intention and experience that the discipline and methodology of Samskritam makes the children very alert and capable of learning any other subject perfectly. (4) Students learning German & Russian by using or translating from Samskritam, have scored more marks than those using English or other languages. (5) Samskritam is being used now for numerical analysis, data structurisation etc. in a big way. Research on unified language translation for effective communication is being carried out for implementation in the Indian Parliament. (5) Apart from this, through the efforts of many organisations, many villages have been converted into Samskritam speaking villages , including two in the completely illiterate Chambal valley while more than 24,000 families have been raised as Samskritam families with Samskritam as their mother tongue. And so on........

Samskritam is the language of the Gods. The guru of the devas Brihaspati was the originator of the grammar and he taught Indra first who is believed to have learnt for more than 10,000 divine years but still could not fathom its depth. So he wrote the first treatise on Samskrit grammar. Then the moon learnt from Brihaspati & Indra and wrote the "Chaandravyaakaranam". Hanuman learnt nine different forms or aspects of grammar from Sun and came to be known as "Navavyaakarana nipuna" ( refer MD's kriti Pavanaatmaja in Naata raaga ). Many centuries later Panini standardised to a very large extent the grammar, the missing links in which were plugged by Katyayana and later commentated upon by Patanjali Maharshi. The language of Ramayana & Mahabharata are different from today's usage. The language of the Vedas is different as well as those of other sciences like Ayurveda, astrology, etc..

As for the three sentences given in earlier posts,

1. It means - three things to be done before dying. The word kartavyaani can be used as 'things to be done' or 'duties' or 'responsibilities'.
2. The word eka has three meanings - one, first or some unknown or undefined. In this sentence it means "some boys are playing "
3. It means literally "waters are drying up " as per English but contextually, it could mean lot of water is drying up.

That is why I never venture to give the mostly asked for word-to-word meaning as it is the bane of learning. Always contextual wholesome meaning offers better satisfaction by elucidating the emotion & passion.

"Sangiitamapi saahityam saraswatyaa: sthanadwayam | Ekamaapaatamadhuram, anyataalochanaamrutam "

cmlover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by cmlover »

"Sangiitamapi saahityam saraswatyaa: locanadwayam | Ekamapi karNamadhuram, anyataa gnAnadAyakam "

classicallover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by classicallover »

cml,

Your version of sloka is both unheard of by me as well as absolutely wrong in its description and grammar. Do you know the meaning ? Locana means eye whil karNa means ear. How can the eye be pleasant or sweet for the ear ?

Rsachi
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Rsachi »

For the rest of us, not the lovers:
Two breasts, two eyes.
Amruta, madhura, all refer to nectarine sweetness. It is a metaphor. One doesn't feel sweetness in either ears or eyes or in thoughts, but only delights in the relevant experience, either sangita=music or sahitya=literature.
Talking of redundancy, did you notice in Sanskrit we say threeNi where as we can just say three in English!?


But this lovely thread has already produced two profound truths:
Truth A: Some people love English, some love Sanskrit, some love Smileys. (I happen to like all three or trINi me priyANi :grin: )

Truth B: In a Sanskrit vs. English debate, you can have the most fun if you don't take sides, just like in a lover's quarrel!!!!

Nick H
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Nick H »

I only disagree with one word of your post. There should be no vs. There is no competition and no sides to take!

Rsachi
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Rsachi »

Ok, agreed.
No versus, no them and us.

cmlover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by cmlover »

classicallover
You have never heard it because I composed it just now :D
Further
सा सरस्वती अपीतकुचा, कथं भवति मधुरस्तना?
(Sarasvati's breasts are immaculate (untasted); how can one claim it is sweet ? )
Also have'nt you heard of hearing through the eyes! The snakes do it all the time whence they are called கட்செவி in Tamil :D (of course poetic misunderstanding :D
In my verse the balance is
sangitamapi karNamadhuram
saahityam anyataa gnAnadAyakam
Eka lOcanam karNamadhuram (one of the eyes listens sweetly to the melodiously musical (sangitam) devotees prayers)
anyataa locanamapi gnAnadAyakam (the other eye (listening to the stotras (sahityam) blesses them by giving them divine knowledge)!

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
1) त्रीणि कर्तव्यानि प्राङ्मरणात्।
2) एके बालाः खेलन्ति।
3) जलानि शुष्यन्ति।

These are explained in detail in the site quoted by vk. In short :-

त्रि = three; त्रीणि = three objects!
एक = one; एके = one group of many objects!
जल = water; जलम् = a collection/pond of water; जलानि = collections/ponds of water!

For details, check http://uttishthabharata.wordpress.com/2 ... -sanskrit/

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

..........
SANSKRIT & NASA !!

Here is the oft-quoted article "Knowledge Representation in Sanskrit and Artificial Intelligence" written by Rick Brigs of RIACS, NASA, that appeared in the AI Magazine Volume 6 Number 1 (1985):-
http://www.aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimag ... ew/466/402
..........

classicallover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by classicallover »

PB,

That was a good goal. Both the links have simplified explanations and stress that the language's beauty is in the brevity.

And there is consistency of meaning in a sentence which was the determining factor for NASA.

राम: खादति फलम् | फलम् राम: खादति | राम: फलम् खादति | फलम् खादति राम: | खादति राम: फलम् | खादति फलम् राम: |

All the above sentences have the same wholesome contextual meaning, since the number & tense are impregnated into one word.

Consider English : Rama eats fruit ; Rama fruit eats ; eats fruit Rama ; eats Rama fruit ; fruit eats Rama ; fruit Rama eats !!

Rsachi,

It was a good exploitation of the situation on your part. ;) All lovers in general may l :o k only at the breasts , but the classical ones look beyond !

Rsachi
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Rsachi »

Don't know where to look, sir.

classicallover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by classicallover »

रसची,

अन्यथा न चिन्तनीयम् | पूर्वस्थ वाक्यस्य उद्देश: भिन्न: | सङ्गीतं यावच्छृणोति तावत्मधुरं एवमपर्याप्तं भवति | साहित्यविषये यावत्चिन्तयति अधिकं , तावतमृतं एवं ज्ञानवर्धकं भवति | इतर रसिकस्य चिन्तनं शारीरिकं , मम चिन्तनं आध्यात्मिकं एवं दैवीकम् | एवं मनसि निधाय चिन्तयतु , वेगं अवगच्छति |

cmlover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by cmlover »

तथापि किमर्थं स्तनं पातव्यं।
अहॊ एतद्देवतादूषणं।सा दॆवी वन्दनीयं च मातृवत्‌ पूजनीयं।
न च वॆश्यावत्‌ लॊचनामृतमिव दर्शनीयं।
त्वामिव अध्यात्मिक दैविक चिंतनं रसिकजन मध्यॆ विरलं।
चैत्रीक हुसॆन्‌ तस्या नग्न चित्रं कारितवान्‌ च भाषतॆ एतत्‌ मम अध्यात्मिक दर्शनमिति।
तत्कारणेन मया रूपांतरं क्रियतां ॥

cmlover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by cmlover »

Thanks PB for that enlightening Ref.
The logical simplicity of sanskrit is also inherent in many of our SI languages!

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

:!:
... the moon learnt (Sanskrit) from Brihaspati ...!
... Hanuman learnt nine different forms or aspects of grammar from Sun ... !
.

classicallover
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Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by classicallover »

cml,

भवत: लेखनाय प्रयत्न: प्रशंसनीय: परंतु बहु अशुद्धं लिखीतम् | भवत: चिन्तनं केवलं शारीरकं इति कारणेन अशुद्धं | अशुद्धचिंतनेन अशुद्धवाकयानि एव सिद्ध्यंती किल ? सह सलोक: मया न लिखित: परंतु बहु पुरातन: | त्वं अवगन्तुं न प्रभवसि |

The sloka was not manufactured by me but is an ancient one. Refer to MD's Saraswatyaa Bhagavatyaa in Chaayaa Gowla. Your cranky ideas are not worth reacting to anymore.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: संस्कृतवन्दनम् - Offer of prayers to Samskritam

Post by cmlover »

पुराणमित्यॆव न साधु सर्वं
न चापि "श्लॊकं" नवमित्यवद्यम्‌ ॥
इति कवि साम्राट्‌ काळिदासः॥
अलं परिदेवनेन, शुभं भवतु तॆ :)

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