The substance of Carnatic music - online survey! Please Vote

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Dec 2012, 09:48

Dear rasikas,

The Hindu online today features two musings of corporate honcho R.Seshasayee. One is about the successful stewardship of Tata empire by Ratan Tata. The other is about what course CM should chart for its continued well-being. A quote for that article is:

Contemporising an art form does not mean its destruction. On the contrary, subtle changes to the form and style of presentation can bring about tremendous patronage. Indeed, it will only increase the relevance and importance of the ‘substance’ therein.

If I belong to the present times, and I purvey any classical art to my fellow-beings of today successfully, I am already contemporising, if I may use that word, my art. However, almost all debates on CM are predicated on the age or generation gap that is manifest as the difference in the median and mean ages of CM artistes and audiences. Thanks to TV shows, soon we will be hearing the croonings and cooings of Kalyani from cribs and cradles to be rated via SMS (another art form under threat -from FB!) We will also take short commercial breaks when Bourne Vita or Horlicks is endorsed by a Mr.Stethoscope to unilaterally increase height and/or IQ and instill genius in young bones resulting in a mantle show place full of medals and cups and a beaming parent.

Be that all as it may be, I want to start a survey here and invite all to vote for what are the relative rankings of a listed ten attributes that define the substance of Carnatic Music.
I shall share my analysis of results for further discussion. Of course your inputs are MOST VALUABLE.

Please rightaway answer the survey here. It is anonymous and simple!

http://goo.gl/615CC

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 24 Dec 2012, 10:02

Nice one , will participate. You have mentioned alapana virtuosity, you have missed out neraval and swaras and RTP, I am unable map to my two attributes . can you also add two more columns if possible
neraval and swaras
RTP

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Dec 2012, 10:33

yes RAjesh, I was also in a self imposed ten question constraint. will add.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Dec 2012, 10:59

Good response already! Have added five more criteria to capture inputs with more granularity.
The link is this:
http://goo.gl/615CC

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Dec 2012, 11:09

Good idea Rsachi. i will answer them.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 24 Dec 2012, 11:12

Rsachi
Very nice , infact you adding tukkada as a criteria is well thought out . I know you have already touched 15 .There are few attributes like artist looks and dresses (that may entirely be a first attribute case for many) and may be artist mannerism. May be you can add one free flowing text box that captures other criteria that is missing , just in case if some one adds something glaringly missing that he/she feels is not added .

Also u can change 10 (least important) to 15(least important)

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Dec 2012, 11:26

Rajesh,
Well, right now I am getting busy at the office. Let us leave it for now as I stands.
We can probe further a bit differently later perhaps,
Thanks!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 24 Dec 2012, 11:28

Ok no probs, rsachi. I am done , few attributes that I think the most were easily rated , but few towards the second half it was kind of difficult to make up my mind. Done with the Survey .

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 24 Dec 2012, 11:29

Nice. Done!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Dec 2012, 11:53

Thanks Rajesh and SureshVV.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Dec 2012, 13:12

I filled it out as well.

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 24 Dec 2012, 18:02

Filled. You left out preferred schools of Music (Ariyakudi/KVN/Semmangudi/Lalgudi/GNB/MLV/Madurai Mani Iyer/Brinda/Ramand Krishnan/ Musiri/ DKP/ DKJ/ Vedavalli/ Nedanuri/ RK Srikantan/Parasala Ponnammal/Tiger/MDR/Balamurali... It will be overwhelmingly in favour of G N B. I can also assure you the last one will be Ariyakudi. Even KVN may figure ahead of Ariyakudi. Infact I want to know what people think of the padantharam. In some padantharam I find the no of sangitis are too many without any significant difference. Some styles lack aesthetics (the way the pidigals are sung). One more thing you left out is duo singing vs individual. Oflate the duo singing is on the increase.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 24 Dec 2012, 21:06

Can u periodically summarize the results? Or have a link where we can see them?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Dec 2012, 21:17

Let us have some prelim results!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 24 Dec 2012, 21:28

I took the survey. One concern: fifteen point scale is too much and might force arbitrary decisions. When designing surveys for studies, I have always been taught to stick to about 7 points maximum.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Dec 2012, 22:37

I took the survey.

But, as suggestions get added to the list of items, it might be necessary to take it more than once?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Dec 2012, 23:00

All,
Thanks for your keen engagement. Surely the trending shows Carnatic music is in very good health!
The BIG FIVE trending are:
SRUTHI, NIRAVAL & SWARAS, ALAPANA, RTP & TRINITY COMPOSITIONS!

Notes:
I shall wait to share more analysis, as I hope to get many more responses.
Multiple factors have been rated as #1 by quite a few. Some others have not filled up all parts.
No need to tweak the survey or take it again.
But please ask others also to take the survey and say what they think. Survey link: http://goo.gl/615CC

The qualitative inputs are quite many, and will be collated separately as we go on.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 24 Dec 2012, 23:10

Perhaps, we could move this to the General discussions section? The thread will get much more visibility there. The small sample of highly interested rasikas could skew your results.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Dec 2012, 23:14

Sounds like a good idea. Can I move it or mods, please?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Dec 2012, 23:29

Rsachi: Moved to the General Section

To spread the word around, those who are active in FB can post it as a status update. And twitter too in case you have a bunch of followers who are CM rasikas.

squims · Post by **squims** » 25 Dec 2012, 00:47

This is a nice survey Rsachi.

I filled it out and posted it on FB as well.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Dec 2012, 01:21

I have made it sticky so that it does not get buried.
With our 6000 membership we should have a good sample of the pulse of CM!
I have added 'Please vote' to the title...

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 25 Dec 2012, 12:35

I too have filled up and submitted the form

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 25 Dec 2012, 19:41

Nice survey.

I answered the final question as follows, after an introduction to myself.

srikant1987 wrote:I hold a special devotion for pure music, especially melodic -- the "rAga (lakShaNa)" side of it.

There should be an appreciation, genuine and sincere awe even, first amongst musicians, for the amount of detail involved, and the amount of skill to be acquired and hard work to be put in to make Carnatic music. Carnatic music with "life", that is. This can then be communicated and spread amongst musicians and rasikas of other genres, and amongst audiences.

To add, we ought to appreciate that Carnatic music has a basis in vocal music. It is to be understood that an emphasis on "lyrics" is not even the main component to this basis, let alone the only one.

To appreciate the "detail" I spoke of, however, one needs exposure to instrumental practice (on suitable instruments) of Carnatic music. Music on instruments needs more things 'explicated', which reveal the detail within.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 25 Dec 2012, 21:28

Well said, sir! Perhaps we could say "the God is in the detail".

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 25 Dec 2012, 21:35

I liked the questions in the survey particularly because they included considerations of both form and function. I found each one unambiguous and easy to make a choice on.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Dec 2012, 23:35

srikant: I think I understand what you are saying there. ( It is similar in spirit to Prof. SRJ's Lecdem http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20581 )
Especially so with the whole lot of anuswaras that lie beyond and in between the usual gamakas. A vocalist can get all this implicitly. But not knowing that detail explicitly can sometimes reveal itself in the kalpanaswaras ( especially at the beginning of that segment when they go back and forth in quick succession ). I hear that in alapanas too when there is mismatch between the vocalist and the violinist even at the level of professionals, the violinist's 'play along and gap filling' phrases will be crispier (say, better 'resolution' from a raga point of view). It is easy to notice since they are next to each other. I guess we can discuss this point and others more when Rsachi publishes the survey results. Sorry Rsachi if I am jumping the gun.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Dec 2012, 00:03

No not at all, VK! I follow what Srikant says, quite well, I think.
I think a very fine illustration of what Srikant says is those concerts with Lalgudi accompanying the big names like SSI, MMI, MDR, etc in the sixties. His responses as well as his ' following' them is extraordinarily impactful.
The same with MSS and VVS in similar contexts. Also MC accompanying so many big names.
The latest example is RKSK accompanying TMK, or Akkarai accompanying Abhishek.
In fact when young, I used to find that the violin virtually stole the show during shloka, viruttam etc. The vocalist would build a lovely bhava with the lyric, and the following music by the violin for each raga would simply blow away listeners!

I think this aspect is what has made violin an indispensable to the Carnatic vocal concert!

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 26 Dec 2012, 01:18

Rsachi: I filled in the survey a few minutes back I am not sure if it got logged. The digital neanderthal that I am,I am not sure. I suspect given the anonymous nature of the survey it may not be possible for you to track it. It took me to a survey site asking for username,password etc(new registration). I passed it up. I do not know whether this may have blocked my feedback.

Anyway an excellent,thoughtful survey!!
The gist of my comments(how to improve CM) was to focus on knowledgeable rasikas to "draw" new listeners into the fold taking into a/c the intimidatory elitist posture(of which I must admit I am occasionally guilty of!!!).

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Dec 2012, 06:22

I suggest you do the survey again, if you aren't sure.
Simple three steps:
1. click this link http://goo.gl/615CC
2. click your choices, and then in the last question, write whatever you want to say in the box provided.
3. click submit. you will get a Thank You message, and then the next few words are some sales push from SurveyCrest asking you to sign up etc. To create your own survey.
once you see the Thank You message, you're actually done. You can go back to your Todi or Bhairavi, whatever you were listening to.

Just checking, did you, sir, write this?
Rasikas responsibility to encourage/educate novice listeners in a non-threatening,non-elitist way building upon what the new listener was attracted to in the first place--a song or the artist etc and then build on it to encourage his/her confidence--Above all put an end to the elitist-snob: attitude displayed by opinionated(no doubt knowledgeable rasika.

If yes, then you have actually done the survey correctly and completely.
You see, we have no Neanderthals here. We only have Jambavans.

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 26 Dec 2012, 08:51

Rsachi: YES!! I did write that comment--thanks for making me feel young,but I am not able to fool a long flight of stairs!!!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Dec 2012, 09:04

Sir, stairs are for those who have yet to climb, and so haven't arrived.

smala · Post by **smala** » 26 Dec 2012, 09:40

rsachi pl check your mail, sent days ago.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Dec 2012, 10:01

Yes Smala, saw it and replied, too.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 26 Dec 2012, 11:09

I hear that in alapanas too when there is mismatch between the vocalist and the violinist even at the level of professionals, the violinist's 'play along and gap filling' phrases will be crispier (say, better 'resolution' from a raga point of view)

I agree with the first half; we do see mismatches. I don't understand what exactly crispier and better resolution mean, but it will be wrong to uniformly credit or discredit one class of beings either way. While vocalists don't need to explicate as much as instrumentalists, they need to understand as much, too!

I think a very fine illustration of what Srikant says is those concerts with Lalgudi accompanying the big names like SSI, MMI, MDR, etc in the sixties. His responses as well as his ' following' them is extraordinarily impactful.
The same with MSS and VVS in similar contexts. Also MC accompanying so many big names.
The latest example is RKSK accompanying TMK, or Akkarai accompanying Abhishek.

I seem to have been thoroughly misinterpreted or misunderstood.

It is not at all about introducing greater detail, indeed, I utterly dislike introducing greater (unnecessary, "anavashyam") detail.

It is about understanding every detail there is, and reproducing it just like that. I would say MSS-VVS and TMK-RKSK are good examples for that; the best examples would be MMI with Sri Papa Venkataramiah or TNK. Among vocalists, MMI, MSS and KVN's singing have a crispness that makes them so transparent to any Carnatic instrumentalist trained in traditional and rigorous pedagogy. MMI's AlApanais, constructed largely in repeatably-sized chunks, makes things even easier to observe. Perhaps MSS-KSN would be an appropriate example too (though I guess there aren't many records of them).

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Dec 2012, 19:32

I would like to get a lot more survey responses from you rasikas!

Optimal Statistical survey sample size:

How many Carnatic music rasikas are there?

Definition: CMR= active, vocal, advocates of CM who listen at least 5 hours of CM per week and attend at least 12 concerts per year. (If they attend more concerts, the total CMR population drops.)

Total number of concerts in a year around the world:
Type A cities, 500 concerts/year, 5 cities = 2500 concerts
Type B cities, 200 concerts/year, 10 cities= 2000 concerts
Type C cities, 50 concerts/year, 25 cities = 1250 concerts.
Hence total concerts/year = 5750 concerts. PLUS Margazhi deluge of 3000.
Attendance per concert, average= 100 people.
Total number of attendances = 8,75,000.
Hence total number of CMR's = 72,920. (dividing attendances by 12).
Statistical survey sample size needed for 95% confidence, 5% error = 383.
Bottomline : we need a lot more respondents than the present 120 to improve the accuracy to 5%.

With the current level of 120 responses, for 95% confidence, our margin of error is 8.94%.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Dec 2012, 20:42

of course your current sample must be biassed towards the 'elites'.
Most of the CMRs are at the low end who will not be represented. Your results so far conform to expectations is due to the 'elite bias'. I guess the elites will be the quick responders compared to the hesitant slow ones. If that is correct you should use the time axis and compare the upper quartile (~30) with the lower quartile (~30). The magic sample size of 30 is adequate for gaussian approximations!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Dec 2012, 20:47

I would like to get a lot more survey responses from you rasikas!

The problem is that, as with many forums, out of the thousands of listed members, there is a much smaller group of current regulars, and a handful of every-dayers. 120 so far is pretty good going!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Dec 2012, 21:47

Yes, 120 is not bad.. Let us see.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Dec 2012, 23:04

I agree with the first half; we do see mismatches. I don't understand what exactly crispier and better resolution mean, but it will be wrong to uniformly credit or discredit one class of beings either way. While vocalists don't need to explicate as much as instrumentalists, they need to understand as much, too!

Right. I was not stereotyping one class or the other, that would indeed be wrong.

priyaram78 · Post by **priyaram78** » 27 Dec 2012, 16:36

I really enjoyed answering the questions in the survey and i really wish all rasikas take a few minutes off their busy schedules to participate in the survey. Carnatic music needs feedback too

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Dec 2012, 20:11

I am depressed by the fact that the respondents so far have not given importance to laya techniques or tani. There ought to have been category on maintaining kala pramanam parallel to shruti maintenance. Rasikas of CM should not ignore the importance of laya ....

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 27 Dec 2012, 22:53

CML,
No virtue like patience, my friend! People are still voting, and Tani is inching up well!
Let me break the suspense, and share here an online link for all of you thinkers and number-plumbers to watch it realtime online:
Survey Results Online!

To give you a perspective:

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Dec 2012, 23:42

Quite revealing so far!
Come on folks! Cast your votes and be heard...

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 27 Dec 2012, 23:43

Rsachi
THis is just wonderful, you are taking me to 1980's where we all watch tv and films that will be screened prior to announcement of election. Also apart from the questions that u asked , there are 23 performing musicians who have answered ,thank you dear musicians .Now puttting the total of performing musicians,teachers and family of musicians , it is half of the biggest category who are die hard rasikas .

Let more people participate , please others join and take your time to read those 15 points and answer them.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Dec 2012, 05:17

Thanks Rsachi for sharing the link with the survey results. ( don't look at the results before taking the survey )

It is too early to analyze the results but it would not be a surprise if the high die-hard rasikas number tilts the results towards essentially
what defines them and their expectations : sruthi alignment, superior alapana, niraval and kalpanaswara skills, singing Trinity compositions with great bhavam and an RTP. It will be interesting to see if the die-hard fan % comes down over time. That may happen if the survey reaches people outside of this forum in a significant way.

One question that would have been interesting to ask is about the length of concerts: 1.00 to 5 hours in half hour increment as possible choices. I did not think of it early enough to convey to Rsachi for consideration.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Dec 2012, 07:38

Thank God there was no category on Abhangs

VK
This survey when completed with most members participating will be the defintion of our Forum!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 28 Dec 2012, 09:54

VK U are right , we should not analyze the results and indirectly make others tilt their views.

squims · Post by **squims** » 29 Dec 2012, 10:56

Thank God there was no category on Abhangs

That's not really true. Abhangs are mentioned amongst the tukkudas.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 13 Jan 2013, 12:29

If you have not yet taken the survey, please do take it, let us go for 500 to 1000 responses. So far we have only 240. Take your time to scan criteria for a minute and then answer. This survey should take only few minutes of your time
http://www.surveycrest.com/survey/50d7cdcfeead3