Why Jugalbandis don't work

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Rsachi
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Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Rsachi »

Dear rasikas,
Thanks to Arasi's question about arisi, I was treated to the Harimau harangue on the incredible india trigalbandi. The discussion seemed to have digressed in the thread to the merits of polished white rice, but I think we need to reflect on what Harimau was saying in the first place.

I agree that jugalbandis don't work. at least they don't for me. Hear this clip: http://mio.to/plBJ. This was in the cassette gifted to me in Taj Coramandel by senior managers in 1984 after I won something big for my MNC. They knew how I loved CM. But sadly, this piece didn't work for me.
In general jugalbandis fail for some reasons I think:
  • 1. Two musicians, with different classical training backgrounds of several years in gharana/gurukul, with different expertises, different sounding instruments, with/without contact mics, with different fan followings, have to collaborate and click. This is asking for too much, like asking Tamil/Malayalam-speaking matinee idols to mouth khari boli.
    2. As fans, we have our trained ears or expectations. And no one has a common Bhupali=Mohana expectation, but at best one of Mohana and one of Bhupali. They two can't happen at the same time!
    3. The key reason for programming jugalbandis is novelty as an attraction, or a kind of mutual respect between two North-South artistes. But it always militates against our surface and deep-seated "traditonal" expectations.
    4. All fan-based musical collaborations pit one musician against another. There is therefore hidden or obvious one-upmanship. That is bad news for music.
    5. CM and HM progress differently in a piece in terms of laya. You just need to hear a clever swara turn of Lalgudi and then an Amjad response to see clearly the disjointed laya progressions. The two trains CANNOT run in parallel.
    6. Listen to Mohana. Listen to Bhupali. They sound SO different! Why serve pulav and lemon rice together, just because they are both rice-based?
    7. If at the end of a jugalbandi, you think India is incredible, these musicians are great, and OMG how wonderful was the tabla/mridangam fireworks, you have simply enjoyed a novel experience. Deep within you, you did not get a truly satsifying fare.
    8. If gate collections, press hype, and television candy are needed, think of other ways to drum up interest. Why this Na Ghar ka Na Ghat ka experiment?
    9. Whereas Ravi Shankar was a global success in marketing, I cringe every time I hear his orchestral experiments. I see an old man enjoying his Madrassi bahu's upma cooking. Nothing more.
Sorry folks, you can say I picked it up from Harimau, but what the .... I had to get it off my chest.

Sachi R

varsha
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

“Our species is the only creative species, and it has only one creative instrument, the individual mind and spirit of man. Nothing was ever created by two men. There are no good collaborations, whether in music, in art, in poetry, in mathematics, in philosophy. Once the miracle of creation has taken place, the group can build and extend it, but the group never invents anything. The preciousness lies in the lonely mind of a man.”

― John Steinbeck, East of Eden

Rsachi
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Rsachi »

Hear, hear.

sureshvv
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by sureshvv »

You must have missed the Abhishek Raghuram/Jayatheerth Mevundi jugalbandhi organized by Carnatica a few years ago.

Rsachi
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Rsachi »

Suresh, I heard a broadcast of theirs on radio recently. I recorded it also.
Sorry my opinion didn't change. (AR Is my favourite!)
You know, I have been hearing these jugalbandis since early 70s all over the place, vocal, Instrumental etc. I somehow feel every time like what I have expressed here.
Most recently I attended a Shahid Parvez and U Shrinivas JB. Then I heard Ronu Mazumdar and Ravikiran JB on Carnatica webcast.
Same feeling.

mahavishnu
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by mahavishnu »

Whereas Ravi Shankar was a global success in marketing, I cringe every time I hear his orchestral experiments.
RSachi: While I agree with most of what you said about jugalbandis not being fair to either system musically (Subbudu was very fond of making this point), I have to say that I actually really like Ravi Shankar's "orchestral maneuvres in the dark".

His collaborative work with Philip Glass and the live show he did at the Kremlin (with a weakly simmhendra madhyamam based symphony and natabhairavi tarana) are really wonderful pieces of music. Some of the stuff he created with Lakshmi Shankar (and a very young L Subramaniam & Chaurasia) as part of the Festival of India series (?) in the early 70s were brilliant also. Not a big fan of the later stuff and the whole tanamana phase that he went through.

Truly amazing collaborations in my opinion were of the kind pioneered by L Shankar/John McLaughlin (mahavishnu), where each of them transcended the boundaries of their own systems. "Fusion" music has been around for four decades or so now, and no one has rivalled what they spearheaded in the 70s.

However, it is not possible to do this within the confines of each system. But as you say, the classic north-south jugalbandi for the most part is a failed musical experiment. There is no point in playing two parallel streams. Here is an example of this taken to the extreme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkQKpfFaze8 (TMK with Rashid Khan, where they are not even singing the same ragam)!

P.S: I think the Abhishek-Jayteerth case may be a notable exception, but even here the match is much better when they sing "Enna paliso" that is compatible with both systems, than when they do the parallel exploration.

rshankar
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by rshankar »

While I agree with what Sachi says in general, I have to say that I have listened to jugalbandhis that have touched me enormoulsy - one example was a live concert of Smt. Jayanti Kumaresh and Pt. Janardhan Mitta, and another was a CD (Pravaham) - Ms. Kanyakumari and Pt. Mitta! And I enjoyed a (rasikas concert?) of Smt. Gayatri Girish and Smt. Lakshmi Sriram..

mahavishnu
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by mahavishnu »

rshankar wrote:While I agree with what Sachi says in general, I have to say that I have listened to jugalbandhis that have touched me enormoulsy - one example was a live concert of Smt. Jayanti Kumaresh and Pt. Janardhan Mitta, and another was a CD (Pravaham) - Ms. Kanyakumari and Pt. Mitta! And I enjoyed a (rasikas concert?) of Smt. Gayatri Girish and Smt. Lakshmi Sriram..
Yes, and Jayanthi Kumaresh with Gaurav Majumdar could be added to this list as well. They both had very interesting takes on valaji/kalavati and the parallel streams made for a very interesting listening experience.

rshankar
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by rshankar »

Ramesh, I meant to say Smt. Jayanti and Sri Gaurav, not Sri Mitta!

smala
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by smala »

rsachi. Many valid points.

I did enjoy a percussion ensemble here in Berkeley at St. Johns, where the acoustics are phenomenal with Vikku Vinayakram (ghatam) Selva Ganesh (Kanjira) and Zakir.
A similar flavor here in this 10 min clip (part 1) but the acoustics of that St. John's missing here, made it very special.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcU_qUkwISg

And for those interested in the outstanding acoustics of St. Johns, here's a description of the Joseph Brombaugh organ piano at St. Johns..

http://www.stjohnsberkeley.org/sundaywo ... hoir/organ

Rsachi
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Rsachi »

Thanks folks, will try and listen to the examples you have cited.
My point was about the North-South raga-based jugalbandi. And Tana Mana etc.
My daughter dances to the Natabhairavi tarana, and yes, it is good - but note it is a 'tarana' in the borrowed scale.
This may be RS at his very best of 'Carnatic inspiration.'

I also heard it sung and danced to with funny Carnatic gamakas 2 days ago! I cringed, knowing what Sivan had shown of the raga in 'Srivalli'.

PS: TMK-Rashid Khan: when I heard their music-Suruti.. I had to ask, 'why, oh, why!?'

varsha
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

will try and listen to the examples you have cited.
2 more samples to the list .
Will come back with ramblings later ;)

http://www.mediafire.com/?22dt3tfs2birc6i
http://www.mediafire.com/?qvu3nxbffby78ss

Shivadasan
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Shivadasan »

Remember to having seen posts praising Ramani Rajam duets as very harmonious. Rajam's duet with TNK have also been acclaimed as harmonious and enjoyable for both CM & HM listeners. Has any one heard these duets ?

Rsachi
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Rsachi »

Yes, Shivadasan, I have heard a few of these duets.
My comments apply.
BTW Varsha has scored a coup featuring a Carnatic male vocalist with two veenas and a sitar in clip 1 of #12. But it in fact proves my point... a nice Megh malhar, a Yadukula Kambodhi, a Jaijaivanti, a Sriragam...Lovely musicians, lovely clips.

The final question will be "Why"

ramarama
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by ramarama »

Below is a piece written for the SIFAS festival brochure a few years ago titled "The Jugalbandhi: Duet or Duel?" as a precursor to a featured BMK-Ajoy C jugalbandhi. Sorry about the length! :D
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Relative to other forms of classical art music from around the world, both leading forms of Indian classical music, Hindustani (North Indian) and Carnatic (South Indian) are uniquely solo forms of presentation. The central artiste, vocalist or instrumentalist is the key performer. The other talented artistes on stage playing string, bowed, or wind instruments and percussion instruments such as harmonium, sarangi, violin, mridangam and tabla, are “accompanists” or “pakka vadyams” (literally side-instruments). They are rarely told beforehand what the main artiste is going to be performing. Indeed the main artiste will often decide right on stage how to begin the concert, and will make up the entire concert repertoire as a response to what she or he perceives of the audience’s mood and responsiveness.

The base of both forms of Indian music is the raga – which is more than just a scale of ascending and descending notes. A raga rendition’s essential purpose to evoke a certain mood or rasa in the audience. It has certain characteristic phrases and twists and turns, and certain no-no’s in terms of forbidden combinations of notes. The responsibility of the central artiste on stage is to offer his or her unique take on that raga for that particular audience. The artiste has to be mindful of all these complex rules, and yet must transcend the mere grammar of the raga to offer an aesthetically pleasing and spiritually uplifting performance for that audience. The accompanists are there to assist the artiste, in maintaining the sruti or base pitch, to maintain the rhthymic pace (laya) as well as the cycle (tala), to embellish the phrases of the main artiste, to inspire him or her to give off her best, and to complement what the artiste is offering to the audience.

Combining solo artistes into a jugalbandhi
Given this emphasis on the solo artiste’s expression or evocation of mood, how then do two different solo artistes come together on a stage to offer a joint presentation of a raga in a jugalbandhi? Indeed, traditionally, the only time two or more solo artistes would present concerts together were when they were siblings. Several famous pairs of brothers or sisters come to mind – the Dagar brothers of various generations in the north, and more recently the Gundecha brothers, and in the south, various pairs such the Karaikudi vainika brothers, the Alathur brothers, Brinda-Muktha of yesteryear or the Hyderabad brothers, Malladi brothers, Ranjani-Gayathri and numerous other sibling pairs of today. With grooming under a common guru, and constant practice in the accompanying presence of the other, and with the sheer experience of numerous concerts together, these pairs have all perfected the method of the duet. Each member of the pair typically has a unique strength and together they wonderfully complement each other. They are able also to come together in perfect unison for the common phrases, sangatis, and other composed sections. Even in these pairs though, sometimes, the carefully listening rasika will discern one member of the pair to sometimes have a subtly dominating presence over the other.

In the last century though, we began to see a number of attempts to stage jugalbandhis, especially in the Hindustani music scene, most famously starting with Ravi Shankar and Ali Akbar Khan on sitar and sarod. Both prominent disciples of Ustad Allauddin Khan, and close collaborators over a number of years, they managed to establish a unison of performance vision that came close to the efforts of the various sibling pairs. And they were in the traditional Indian classical music sense, at least guru-bhais – brothers in the sense of being disciples of the same guru. The Ravi Shankar-Ali Akbar jugalbandhis were a novelty at their time but they went on to inspire many other successors to seek collaborations with other artistes. But there have not been many other lasting pairs who have left a long term impact as a performing couple.

Among the later pairs were notably Hariprasad Chaurasia (flute) and Shivkumar Sharma (santoor), Bismillah Khan (shehnai) paired variously with Vilayat Khan (sitar), Dr N Rajam (violin), and V G Jog (violin) and some of their recordings became all time best sellers during the latter half of the last century. Many other pairs did not last very long, with just the odd coupling or two to add spice to a festival line-up. And in the South, there have surprisingly not been too many such experiments, and very few long staying combinations, other than the very popular violin-venu-veena trio of Lalgudi Jayaraman, N Ramani and R Venkataraman of yesteryear, and the more recent pairing of Kadri Gopalnath (saxophone) playing duets with, rather than just accompanied by, A Kanyakumari (violin).

The challenge


This relative lack of success in terms of long standing partnership is perhaps a function of the very reasons mentioned before, of the solo nature of the Indian classical music art form, and the expression of an individual’s bhava or mood, as a way of evoking that same bhava in the audience for that date. Two artistes cannot easily come together on stage without adequate preparation and practice together to simultaneously participate in the “badhat” or development of a raga. It would be like asking two painters to paint together or a committee of poets to write a poem together. On the other hand, if there were too much practice and co-ordination earlier, that might ruin the spontaneous and jazz-like nature of the improvised parts of the music, which so importantly define the essence of all the Indian classical music forms.

Thus, these partnerships for the most part are titillating, provide for a fascinating combination of sounds of different instruments or voices, foster a slight sense of competition among the artistes on stage, with each exerting a slight force of inspiration on the other, and are very entertaining for a lay audience member. But to the discerning listener, looking for a grand raga development built on a strong edifice slowly but spontaneously put together for that occasion, these jugalbandhi efforts are often a little disappointing.

The cross-genre jugalbandhis

Over the last few decades, we increasingly see combinations of artistes from the South and North. Dr Balamuralikrishna has collaborated with many artistes from the North, notably Pandit Hariprasad Chaurasia, Pandit Jasraj and Pandit Ajoy Chakrabarty. Many other Hindustani-Carnatic pairings have graced many a festival, including Hariprasad Chaurasia-N Ramani, the sibling violinist pair Dr N Rajam-T N Krishnan, Amjad Ali Khan-Lalgudi Jayaraman, Vishwa Mohan Bhatt-N Ravikiran, Ronu Mazumdar-Kadri Gopalnath and the spousal vocal pair Sriram Parasuram-Anuradha Sriram. Most of the recent SIFAS festivals have featured at least one such jugalbandhi.

These pairings across genres present a few specific challenges:

1. The ragas do not often match very well. Even when the musicians take up ragas that are exactly the same because one system has “borrowed” the raga from the other, like Hamsadhwani or Behag, these ragas often get very different treatment in the South versus in the North. As mentioned before, a raga is more than just a scale of ascending and descending notes. There are characteristic catch phrases, and moods that the ragas signify which are sometimes subtly different in the south versus the north. Hamsadhwani for example is almost always a concert opener in the southern tradition, and is rendered in the form of a very fast paced kriti that is uplifting and upbeat. Yet the north Indian interpretation of Hamsadhwani needs to follow the traditional format of badhat, building up from a very slow development in the lower part of the octave, to the later portions at the top of the octave. This gives a very somber and devotional mood to the exposition of the same raga. And where ragas are not exactly the same but just close substitutes, such as the popular jugalbandhi combinations of Bhoop-Mohanam and Yaman-Kalyani, there is an even bigger separation in terms of the evoked rasa or mood.

2. The form and length of exposition of the free form aalap is quite different in north and south Indian music. Indeed in the above example of Hamsadhwani, in the time taken to build up to the middle octave “ga” in a Hindustani recital, a Carnatic musician typically would have rendered raga, composition and rapid fire swaras and would have been on to the next composition! In these jugalbandhis therefore, the North Indian genre often exerts a slowing down influence on the Carnatic musician’s raga elaboration and that makes the southern musician sometimes sound like s/he is accompanying the Hindustani musician rather than being free to present the raga as in a solo recital. The North Indian musician rarely compromises, other than accepting to perform a borrowed Carnatic raga such as Simhendra Madhyamam, Kiravani or Charukesi.

3. The emphasis on tala (rhythmic cycle) and sahitya (lyrics) differs widely between the two genres, with the Carnatic version putting a lot more emphasis on both of these aspects of music. Hence the most common format presented as a jugalbandhi is the Ragam Tanam Pallavi which roughly at least corresponds to Alap, Jor and Gat/bandish. The lyrics are fewer, and there is a substantial non-rhythmic portion in the rendition. And the real rhythmic combinations are better experimented with and come to fuller effect in the tani avartanam or percussion duets of the mridangam and tabla. Thus the traditional khayal or kriti which are the mainstays of the two styles of music are not easily adaptable to be sung in a jugalbandhi format.


A possible formula

One particular “formula” which seems to work well for these cross-genre duets is:

1. The North Indian musician starts the raga development and continues the badhat into fairly late parts of the middle octave, say for ten to fifteen minutes, with the Carnatic musician adding graces here and there in the pauses.
2. The Carnatic musician then takes an equal amount of time presenting the raga exactly as she or he would for a solo Carnatic recital, feeling at liberty to traverse the octave in one fell swoop at the start itself if that is what the raga calls for, rather than following in step fashion, the example of the north Indian counterpart.
3. Once the raga’s full contours have been established at length like this, the two artists could take turns exploring various sections of the octaves in shorter and shorter sections and finally even phrases or individual notes, and at some point, if necessary, engaging in a rhythmic jod or tanam type exposition.
4. For the composition, similarly, it might be best for the Hindustani musician to develop the vilambit or slow composition (preferably the lyrics of a Sanskrit kriti’s pallavi) at length for ten to fifteen minutes, before the Carnatic musician pitches in with a full kriti rendition. And then they could join in for the improvised parts, with the north Indian taans being matched by the south Indian neravals or swaras.

A delightful recording of vocalists Shyamala Bhave (Hindustani) and Mysore Nagamani Srinath (Carnatic) shows the potential of this formula for more effectively conveying the bhava of a raga in a joint exploration. N Ravikiran also seems to adopt this formula in some of his joint ventures.

More than a synthesis of two solos

In any case, one should generally not go to a jugalbandhi concert merely expecting what one expects in a solo recital (or two!). The excitement of seeing two superbly trained artistes make music together has its own special attraction. Yes, there is the occasional sense of competition or dueling, but it is almost always in a very friendly and jesting spirit. Importantly, every once in a while, the two musicians come together in ways that vividly demonstrate the basic one-ness of both kinds of music, and perhaps even of all music. For these reasons, every jugalbandhi of this cross genre kind is a mind-opening experience.

The one in this festival between the vocal maestros Dr M Balamuralikrishna and Pandit Ajay Chakrabarty promises to be a fantastic feast for all, the novice and the expert, the North Indian and South Indian rasika, the long term Indian music fan and the non-Indian listening to these art forms for the first time. Joined as these musicians are by some fabulous accompanists, Ragavendra Rao (violin), T R Sundaresan (mridangam), Brajeswar Mukherjee (harmonium) and Yogesh Samsi (tabla), there will be much to look out for – in all aspects – raga, tala, composition and improvisation, and a rich texture of all the various sounds of this impressive ensemble in a climactic finish!

rajeshnat
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by rajeshnat »

The main purpose of jugalbandhi
1. Each of the musicians crowd sources the other bastion . Like a CM artist gets HM trained crowd and vice versa

2. Also there is more acceptance from the powerful babus , especially the Delhi politicians. Also you can hit pockets universities like IIT M etc where you have opportunities .

3. There is also a more national acceptance for CM artists than rather singing at Mylapore, Malleswaram , Matunga ,etc

4. If you are lucky you can get international acceptance too and can be the next ravishankar.
.....
5. And finally like how we have tata steel ads in the past where they say "We finally make steel". There is also "music".
Last edited by rajeshnat on 11 Jan 2013, 16:41, edited 1 time in total.

mohan
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by mohan »

Shivadasan wrote:Remember to having seen posts praising Ramani Rajam duets as very harmonious. Rajam's duet with TNK have also been acclaimed as harmonious and enjoyable for both CM & HM listeners. Has any one heard these duets ?
I've heard this once but wasn't too impressed. They basically played a few pieces solo in their own styles and combined for one piece. Didn't work too well.

I enjoyed the jugal bandhi concerts featuring Kalpana Venkat (c-violin) and BV Sivaramakrishna (H-sitar). Probably worked well because Sivaramakrishna has a good knowledge of Carnatic music as well (His brothers include flute BV Balasai of violin BV Raghavendra Rao). You can find their music on musicindiaonline searching for 'sneham'

sureshvv
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by sureshvv »

Jugalbandis work for me when the creative pressure goads the musician to step out a little bit and incorporate some flavor of the partner's style of rendition. Unfortunately this does not happen in every performance. In the Shek/Jayatheerth program, I think they took up Multani for elaboration and Shek rendered it in Carnatic style. In the recent Malladi/Gundecha Bros. program, they sang a bandish? in Hindolam/Malkauns and the Malladi Brothers (even the stable/disciplined one) attempted some drupad of their own.

varsha
Posts: 1978
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

attempted some drupad of their own.
And there lies a secret . Duets are a refreshing break from the routine when they agree to experiment on stage .
HM-CM as we experience on concert stage today (probably) have their roots in the BMK-BJ duet in Mumbai on Independence Day. Duets later on took the avathar of national integration facilitators .
And has turned out to be a lie that fits many handles .
And reached a stage where the drummers rule the show .

But it was not always like that
SB's tryst with Sitar , ( And by that I mean his own Sitar , The Sitar Guru he befriended in Bhilai , The conversations with Nikhil Bannerji there , the cross pollination and the birth of a HM - LP featuring a full length Lathangi ) is unravelling only now . The vachaspathi he taught those HM folks was played - by the Bhilai Gurus student - last year in chennai in a full length sitar rendering . An act which largely went unnoticed .
It was the same artist taking on the vainika ( no pun intended) in what was essentially a blind date .
Rsachi asks about the choice of ragas and exhorts why ?
It was clear to all of us that North and South shall never meet . But a spell of travel across the borders would help smoothen the curves . The curves in the minds ofthe artists and the listeners .

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

http://www.mediafire.com/?q9v1z8x4ue45h4r

And just how much of this Abhogi by Nikhil , we owe to SB's regular trips to Bhilai ...
We may never know .

53 minutes of effort of SB'sque proportions .
Compare this with any of the slam bang sawal jawab version of the other maihar scion and one can romanticise that one of them was an inward looking artist and drew a lot of inspiration from the south of the vindhyas .
More of this later

vinsim
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by vinsim »

I think it is fun to attend a jugalbandhi, every once in a while - just to shake things up a little bit. There will always be mismatches, like TMK and Rashid Khan, but it is no reason to abandon altogether what could be a rewarding exercise for both artistes and audiences. Surely, the duets between Bhimsen Joshi and Balamurali make for an enthralling viewing on youtube. There is a 2 minute video of Amjad Ali and Veena Doreswamy Iyengar playing Nalinakanthi together that I enjoy so much...how I wish somebody uploads the full concert.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c2gXDkQ_XU

srikant1987
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by srikant1987 »

Personally, I find that the VERY limited choice of proper Karnataka -- but also to some extent, proper Hindustani -- rAgas makes most jugalbandis disappointing. Only Kalyani/yaman seems to be an option -- though there is this a shrIranjani-bAgEshrI/AbhOgikAnaDa by TNK-NRajam somewhere on rasikas.

Apart form that, it's mostly kAnaDa/kApi/sindhubhairavi (heavily HM) -- or cArukEshi/simhEndramadhyamam/kIravANi (neither here nor there). :( I've also come across pantuvarALi and whateveritis, which seems an OK choice, as is pUrvikalyANi/"pUrvi?". But I think these two rAgams need to be very intense in the CM, or will fall flat ... can't go hand-in-hand with the leisurely style generally adapted in HM.

Maybe they can try shrI/shrI or aThANA/aDANA or bhairavi/bhairavi jugalbandi or something.

varsha
Posts: 1978
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

Dinakar Kaikini tries singing /composing ,carnatic style , in a singapore concert

https://soundcloud.com/gourangk/pt-dink ... ni-kalyani

Must have been the long spells he spent in chennai ,accompanying his Guru SN Ratanjankar to the Academy sessions .
Old timers still remember his colleagues KG Ginde - VM Bhatt singing Jaijaiwanthi for hours at SGS Sabha

smala
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by smala »

can't get it to play, varsha, is it just me?

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by vasanthakokilam »

varsha wrote:Dinakar Kaikini tries singing /composing ,carnatic style , in a singapore concert

https://soundcloud.com/gourangk/pt-dink ... ni-kalyani

Must have been the long spells he spent in chennai ,accompanying his Guru SN Ratanjankar to the Academy sessions .
Old timers still remember his colleagues KG Ginde - VM Bhatt singing Jaijaiwanthi for hours at SGS Sabha
Interesting. Sounds very good. Have you played this to any hindustani rasika who is not much familiar with carnatic and see how they relate to
this style of singing?

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

can't get it to play, varsha, is it just me?
could be the browser . it is a simple soundcloud track . if you still have problems ,let me know . will reupload on mediafire .
vk
I will never risk this with die hard rasikas :)

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

Have you played this to any hindustani rasika who is not much familiar with carnatic and see how they relate to
I did not . Someone else beat me to it .With another track .
See the effect for yourself .
http://www.mediafire.com/?wx3pk9fz1qu5dsa
:)

Shivadasan
Posts: 251
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Shivadasan »

Our forum consists of members with different tastes and different ideas about Music, CM, HM, in fact about every matter discussed. Many of us are trained to think that a word has a specific single meaning. After reading the posts in our forum and the hot sharp arguments, I have come to realise that there can be many meanings for any term we take for discussion. In this particular matter viz., Jugalbabndis it might have different meaning for different persons. Some examples below.

1. Jugalbandis are meant to test the caliber and expertise of the participating artists. Example Bhimsen Joshi & BMK
2. Jugalbandis are meant to be a duel between the participants and the audience would judge who is better. Many enjoy the combat . Pt.Kishan Maharaj and Sivaraman, Amjad and Lalgudi
3. Jugalbandis (CM & HM) can be used to bring out the uniqueness and contrast between the CM style and HM style, say, by playing Thodi and Darbari.
4. Jugalbandis (CM & HM) are meant to present before the listeners the similarities between certain CM & HM ragas and explore how close they are together. N.Rajam & Ramani or TNK
5. Jugalbandis are meant to present different style of music and educate the audience about the specialities of each style. Lecdems
6. Jugalbandis (CM & HM) are meant to present before the listeners the similarities between certain CM & HM ragas and explore how close they are together, if necessary compromising tradition and exposing how much the artists can play the other system as well .
7. Jugalbandis are a means to present to the audience the propensities for fusing the two systems.

I do not deny that there can be many more vies on the subject.

Shivadasan

arasi
Posts: 16877
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by arasi »

So well put, Shivadasan!
All the above are forms of jugalbandhis which is confusing to rasikAs.

When in my young days I heard Ravi Shankar and Ali Akbar Khan play jugal bandhis, I was swept away. A jugal bandhi was a jugal bandhi. A jugal bandhi today embraces many different forms where two artistes (with accompaniment) make music.
As a result, I avoid attending one!

Shivadasan
Posts: 251
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:52

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Shivadasan »

Dear Arasi,

I totally agree with you. I am yet to hear a duet that can match Ravi Shankar Ali Akbar duets. Possibly Nazakat Salamat comes somewhere near.
Shivadasan

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Rsachi »

RS and AAK were gurubhais, collaborated and worked closely for many years, and gave rehearsed presentations together, the orginal idea behind jugalbandis that could work and a far cry from today's mish mash of ragas, genre, CM/HM, etc. etc.

venkatakailasam
Posts: 4170
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 19:16

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by venkatakailasam »

Rare jugaldandi- Veena Doraiswamy Iyengar with Amjad Ali Khan...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c2gXDkQ_XU

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10958
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by vasanthakokilam »

varsha wrote: I did not . Someone else beat me to it .With another track .
See the effect for yourself .
http://www.mediafire.com/?wx3pk9fz1qu5dsa
:)
I listened to it. What effect should I look for? He talks quite a bit in between. I hear him say Dakshin <something> before he sings Vathapi, other than that I do not understand what he says.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

The effect is one of CM seeping into a performance of HM , for HM audiences .
Channulal Misra is a senior HM vocalist , doing a religious musical discourse ,here. And as he gets to Hamsadhwani , he cannot help remembering his days in chennai when he picked up a bit of CM . And he goes on to tell his audience about Vatapi , the laya orientation .

ramarama
Posts: 94
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 12:15

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by ramarama »

Thanks a ton for sharing that, Varsha - lovely to listen to Vatapi with that Hindustani accent - and just marvelous singing all around in that ragamalika of sorts :D

vasanthakokilam
Posts: 10958
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Varsha, got it. Thanks.

sureshvv
Posts: 5542
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by sureshvv »

Here is another gem:

http://mio.to/BGpl

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Rsachi »

Pt. Channulal Mishra has some fine videos on You Tube.

Nick H
Posts: 9473
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Nick H »

Jugalbandis don't work because they are mostly not jugalbandis.

Conversations fail if they are not conversations. On person making a speech whilst the other makes some background noise is not a conversation, even if they do take turns at the speech making.

Jugalbandis work when two musicians who enjoy playing together and sharing each others' ideas produce a creative blend which contains pure elements from both sides, is both, but is neither and something else too.

Jugalbandis are ill-fated when they are the ticket-selling combination of names created by the organiser, and not the mutual coming together of the musicians.

As, just with fusion, experience tells me that I probably won't enjoy, I seldom attend --- and probably miss some good along with the bad. An exception is Shashank's collaborations, which are really brilliant.

As Shivadasan suggests, there are, for better and for worse, other definitions.

arasi
Posts: 16877
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by arasi »

Nick,
Well said. A good jugalbandhi (coming together) happens when both artistes do like each others music and the genre which they belong to, if they are different.
The confluence and their individual playing should reflect the fun they are having in exploring music in this unique way. The end result should be fulfilling for them both and of course, for the audience.

varsha
Posts: 1978
Joined: 24 Aug 2011, 15:06

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by varsha »

http://www.mediafire.com/?dttxdbio4ft9xbo
chittibabu at his best !!
how i wish i could hear a jugalbandi in this combo of ragas !!!
samudrapriya ( sumanesaaranjini) - madhukauns .

venkatakailasam
Posts: 4170
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 19:16

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by venkatakailasam »

I am posting with out comments...

E SWARA-INS 08-mAlkauns-hindOLam-MS_Gopalakrishnan-Pt_Hariprasad_Churasia-Jugalbandhi -60mts..concert

E SWARA-INS 08-mAlkauns-hindOLam-MS_Gopalakrishnan-Pt_Hariprasad_Churasia-Jugalbandhi.mp3

Rsachi
Posts: 5039
Joined: 31 Aug 2009, 13:54

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by Rsachi »

Thanks, VKSM,
Heard it. Wish the violin sounded richer....

mohan
Posts: 2808
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Re: Why Jugalbandis don't work

Post by mohan »

Manjari Kelkar and Sudha Ragunathan are in Adelaide, Australia for the World Music Festival, Womadelaide. Here is a recent radio interview with them and an short jugalbandhi by them:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... ia/4543314

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