Indian - Western fusion music band

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Mar 2009, 20:03

msakella wrote:they are not used to relish a pure note like a bus-conducter who cannot write anything properly unless his entire body moves. amsharma

!

Shekarg · Post by **Shekarg** » 20 Mar 2009, 21:50

All:

Although I have heard them before (I live in Cincinnati, 100 miles from OSU at Columbus), I must admit that it felt like light music. here's why:

1) When you play guitar chords for carnatic music, there will be abaswaram, no matter what. For example, if you play C major chord on the guitar for Sa, you are essentially playing strings tuned to e, c, f, g, c and e. That essentially means that even if the chord C sounds like Sa, there will be notes that would be abaswaram in carnatic unless the raga uses all of the notes.
2) Even if the raga did use all of the notes of a chord, the essence of a raga is in the way the notes are played (not just if they occur or not).
3) Any musician with a good ear can make out the differences in frequencies of the basic swaras in carnatic and western. The frequency calculations are different and you can never play carnatic with a keyboard, no matter what. Try playing a violin tuned using a western tuner to C, G, C and G on the four strings (instead of carnatic Sa Pa, Sa and Pa covering 2 octaves). A good carnatic violinist can make out that the sound is quite not right because the frequencies are slightly off.
4) Typically a jugalbandhi with hindustani sounds more pleasing than carnatic because of the frequency mismatch.

I have heard a few fusion concerts in the past and feel it sounds more like light music albeit being a good attempt by a bunch of students. Although I am by no means an expert (or even close), I am an avid carnatic listener/learner and was a rock guitarist in my college days 15 years back. My $.02 for whatever its worth and apologies if I offended anybody.

Shekar

Shekarg · Post by **Shekarg** » 20 Mar 2009, 21:52

"Typically a jugalbandhi with hindustani sounds more pleasing than carnatic because of the frequency mismatch"

Oops a typo!! I meant jugalbandhi with hindustani sounds more pleasing than one with western!!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Mar 2009, 22:14

Shekarg wrote: Although I have heard them before (I live in Cincinnati, 100 miles from OSU at Columbus), I must admit that it felt like light music. here's why:

Can you please indicate who you are talking about?

1) When you play guitar chords for carnatic music, there will be abaswaram, no matter what. For example, if you play C major chord on the guitar for Sa, you are essentially playing strings tuned to e, c, f, g, c and e. That essentially means that even if the chord C sounds like Sa, there will be notes that would be abaswaram in carnatic unless the raga uses all of the notes.

In a sense, this is true. But think about this: You just have sa and pa from a tampura, you can clearly hear G3 (antara gandhara) - due to the interaction/overlap between the two sounds that arise from the nature of the tampura sound. We have had people singing khaharapriya and tODi with that for a long time. Of course you have sa-pa tuning for ragas like SrIranjani as well. How different is a major chord to a sankarabharanam for that? Now, one can have inherent associations on hearing a chord with cm (i.e. we associate such sounds strongly to western music, or music that has western influences which in turn is interpreted as light by most cm rasikas). That is different. From a pure technical, frequency/pitch standpoint, I think both these are very similar, if not identical. Of course both can be a problem to some listeners - I am not discounting that.

But I also have read (I dont remember which book now). that the combined sound of a chord is NOT the same as the individual sounds of the notes that make up it - I mean sum is not exactly equal to the parts. Its almost like a chord has its own tonal quality.

Btw, one could use natural tuning also. But you do have people doing a fairly good job on a guitar (Prasanna, Sukumar Prasad - although I have not heard of the latter - only heard that he was pretty good, even better than Prasanna when it comes to CM).

That a fusion sounds light, while true is immaterial. I dont think people are saying fusion is heavy, or must be heavy. Its just a different kind music. That difference can be interpreted as "light", "filmy", or "pleasing" depending on the listener's tastes and preferences. BTW, I myself cannot be called a big fan of fusion - ironic? Yes

Arun

Shekarg · Post by **Shekarg** » 20 Mar 2009, 23:13

"Can you please indicate who you are talking about?"

I meant the Param fusion band at Columbus, OH

It is true that you can tune a guitar to natural scale and play carnatic. However, you cannot play chords using natural scale because guitar fret placements are not in natural scale. You need the logarithmic (chromatic) scale to produce the harmony and play chords. Once you play a chromatically tuned guitar for a carnatic fusion, the subtle differences in frequencies become obvious.

"From a pure technical, frequency/pitch standpoint, I think both these are very similar, if not identical"
I beg to differ on this, even if the guitar is tuned to a natural scale like Prasanna uses, and chords are not played, the frequencies are not identical, but indeed slightly off. It is close but differs by as much as 3-4 Hz, a subtle difference, a master musician can make out. Playing carnatic music on a guitar is a huge skill because the frets are placed according to logarithmic scale and the musician (like prasanna) plays by compensating (adjusting) for the slight frequency mismatch. On violin, since there are no frets, the finger can be placed exactly at one location to give the correct frequency. Hence, violin has been used in carnatic music for a long time!!

Exercise: Tune a veena and a guitar precisely to any pitch/kattai of your choice using an electronic tambura. Place your finger on first fret of guitar and Veena (ri1 in carnatic) and measure the frequency. What do you find? Although the frequencies are eerily close, they may be off by as much as 4 Hz. Prasanna compensates by pressing little harder or lighter to get the desired frequency in carnatic.

That explains why guitar and mandolin were never used in carnatic although Indians were exposed to western instruments as early as 17th century. That also makes it clear why U Srinivas and Prasanna are geniuses.

Please see a link below

http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/~sriram/karpri.html

I have also read in the past how carnatic swara calculations are made but am sure there are calculations online.

Regards

Shekar

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Mar 2009, 23:33

You need the logarithmic (chromatic) scale to produce the harmony and play chords.

I dont think so. Harmony is about symbiotic (or "anti" for the lack of a better word) relationship between pitches. So for chords like major-triads, it work the best with natural tuning rather than chromatic. For example a major chord with tonic, a perfect(?) third (i.e. 5/4) and a perfect fifth (i.e. 3/2) is way more harmonious than a equi-tempered third and fifth. When people did choir music in church many centuries ago (where 3 voices combined etc.), which IIRC is how all this chord business started, this is how it was. All natural frequencies, no chromatic. Early instruments probably matched it.

Nowadays, of course in instruments it is mostly equi-tempered and the human preference can actually be conditioned to go otherwise (experiments have proven this). I mean that when people hear the equi-tempered third long enough in the western context, many think that is a better third than the natural

But yes, I think the fret positioning may not aid natural tuning. However there *are* folk bands who play only natural scale - I think they may have special instruments.

But anyway, I was *not* arguing that the equi-tempered note is as good as natural note in carnatic context and people shouldnt complain. I did not think that was your point in your earlier post. There are no arguments w.r.t that.

However, my point is that presence of the equi-tempered G3 and a equi-tempetered fifth in a major chord that is say played along with a carnatic melody that say hovers around sa is actually not that more jarring compared to the presence of pa in the tampura during Sriranjani

.

That also makes it clear why U Srinivas and Prasanna are geniuses.

Yes they are genuises but its not like they are weaving some secret magic to completely avoid chromatic frequencies altogether. No, it instead points to the fact that *even* with chromatic frequencies ordained by the frets, one can output pretty authentic carnatic stuff (atleast for most if not all ragas?).

Prasanna as far as I know does not use custom guitar with custom fret placement. And he uses slides, pretty much only slides (this is obvious from his dvds, and he also has openly said so in an interview). So he is obviously doing slides between frets which again, are geared towards those chromatic frequencies. Now do you finds the result to be "carnatic enough" ? Then chromatic frets arent that bad.

Arun

Shekarg · Post by **Shekarg** » 21 Mar 2009, 02:17

Very nicely summarized Arun.

An interesting story: Last year when I started learning flute I had only one flute in 5.5 kattai. I decided to make some flutes using PVC tubes and drill bits and made six in all. All flutes were made using an online calculator and formula (V = n*lambda). Although I made precise measurements and holes were drilled perfectly (I am an engineer/scientist and have access to drills, lathes, laser measures, digital calipers and precise cutting tools), some minor adjustments were made using a file to get the perfect pitch for every note. I was perplexed because I use exact mathematical numbers and took temperature/altitude into account while measuring velocity of sound. My then guru could make out the difference and said it was pretty close until, I filed and adjusted the holes using a sruthi box.

My dad has been an avid carnatic music lover and at 77 still tries to go to navarathri kutcheris and thiruvaiyaru. When he visited us in US, he explained and showed why the natural scale was different from harmonic scale and gave me a book which has the math behind the calculations. Although, I have not made any new flutes using carnatic frequencies, I have seen youtube videos where flute makers use sruthi box for burning each hole into bamboo and adjust until it is pitch perfect. They do not use any math calculations and are very skilled in the art.

Yes it is true that you can output pretty authentic carnatic stuff while playing lead on a chromatic tuned guitar. While playing rhythm though (with my guitar experience) it is tougher to control the frequencies of each string. Good observation on the antara gandhara while playing sa-pa-sa on tambura. I shall pay attention while using tambura next time.

Thanks for the informative post.

Regards

Shekar

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Mar 2009, 02:57

Yes with chords, you cant control them. With Prasanna and U. Srinivas, even though they slide a lot, they also probably do small bends etc. in certain places.

But I also learned later on that expecting chords to simply be completely "subservient" to the current tonal centre of the melody (i.e. whatever swara is the current focus) is actually very limiting from a harmony aspect. The chords/harmony adds an entirely new dimension to the tune, and thus it would be limiting if it simply became "something in the background" (i.e. if it simply otthu oodified) that can be easily "tuned out" ( pun intended

). Now for a carnatic ear, this "adding new dimension" that is not simply "playing along" would sound odd, since for such an ear, melody (as defined by the raga) is king/emperor/God, and anything that runs even tangential to it would seem to completely spoil the day. I think that could be another reason why fusion sounds "weak" (if i can use the word) to a carnatic rasika - because the expectation seems to be such that carnatic melodies should preserve their classical nature even in other contexts like this. This hence becomes limiting (e.g. when viewed from the aspect of say harmony)

Of course these are just random musings. I think experts like Anil Srinivasan can chime in a way more coherent way - to either corroborate or refute the above.

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Mar 2009, 03:19

The chords/harmony adds an entirely new dimension to the tune, and thus it would be limiting if it simply became "something in the background"

I know there are specific classical forms in which two ore more melodies are entwined, but even in lighter music, multiple voices can actually be appreciated, rather than as melody and background, as more than one melody, don't you think?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Mar 2009, 03:34

Yes Nick certainly. In fact this multiple melodies (point, counterpoint?) is I think is the major component of harmony (?).

But I was referring how a carnatic music fan soaks in a carnatic melody. I somehow think his/her attention (and attachment) is like atleast 95% directed at that one main melody line

! I was also musing about chords in particular as harmony, like chords from a rhythm guitar to a carnatic melody. Say at some point in the melody, a chord was played that accentuated a different swara than the one that is being the focal point of the melody (but say the two are harmonically related). I think in western contexts, this is adds color to the overall song. I am guessing that to a carnatic ear, this would sound odd.

Arun

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Mar 2009, 15:31

It now occurs to me that I a talking about one specific use of harmony: where a song is written in parts. Classic example of this is "Barbers' Shop" accapella (sp?) singing.

In the chord, for instance strummed on the guitar, all the colour of that moment in the music is in that chord, but in the sequence of chords one cannot isolate the parts.

I'm stumbling in the dark here; does it make any sense?

The strings link sounded very odd to me. I don't know if it was harmony that made it sound odd; I should listen a few times. I never particularly liked the Western string sound (except as part of an orchestra) and part of the formation of my early relationship with carnatic music was the fact that its musicians "made the violin sound right".

I enjoyed your piece much more

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Jul 2009, 06:10

Another "creation" : http://sunson.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/ ... highlands/ - your comments and inputs (and tolerance

), if any, are appreciated.

Suji - you played a part

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Jul 2009, 07:56

Arun,
I liked that!
A perky nATTakkuRinji, I would have said, if I had just got up in the morning to the strains of it...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Jul 2009, 17:20

Thanks arasi

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Jul 2009, 02:37

arunk wrote:Another "creation" : http://sunson.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/ ... highlands/ - your comments and inputs (and tolerance ), if any, are appreciated.

Suji - you played a part

Arun

Arun,
Just heard your composition. I missed seeing this as I was away on vacation that week.
Excellent! A perfect fusion.
I liked the part up to 1.38 and the change thereafter to a funky style which is very pleasant.
3.28 onwards the finale is great and a gentle ending.
Natakuranji at its best in fusion.
Would like to learn how you set chords. I'm just beginning...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Jul 2009, 02:50

I love listening to this piece by Arun. The sheer variety in those 4 minutes is awesome. The riff at the end of the penultimate segment is just right as it then moves to the smooth landing. I have been wanting to get back to it with the express purpose of sensing the raga. I see the cat is out of the bag. I went back and listened to it just now. I still do not sense nAttakurinji , though now that I know the answer I can talk myself into it. You say the geneology should be obvious in the beginning itself. Is that the Aro/Ava itself? That is nicely done since it does not just sound like playing the Aro/Ava.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Jul 2009, 03:09

vasanthakokilam wrote: That is nicely done since it does not just sound like playing the Aro/Ava.

that's the beauty of the vakra raga isn't it?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jul 2009, 03:19

Thanks suji and vk

- Allow me to ramble.

This one ending up posing a tough challenge because the kind of western music I like has a a certain feel that is a mixture of some edginess and/or heaviness and/or coolness - all of which is of course subjective

!

This feel was easily achievable to my satisfaction with simhendramadhyamam and also with hemavati. SrI was a little bit challenging - but I was able to get it to my satisfaction (the tune i got was of course not dark or edgy, but it has enough weight to my satisfaction i.e. from a fusion perspective. soft). nATakurinji was a much tougher challenge as it just has too much of a "feel good" touch to it - it was hard to conjure up a electric guitar like solo for it in the styles I like or was influenced by. But the solo I came up was influenced in some regard by a Pink Floyd song (the *first* solo in Comfortably Numb) - the start of mine mirrors the start of that.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jul 2009, 03:22

vk - yes. The aro/avaro of natakurinji is s r g m n d n p d n s / s n d m g m p g r s and this pretty much what the start and end piano bit does (with r being slightly "trilled" - i think thats the right word).

The guitar solo also sticks to this structure: e.g. mndn to ascend, ndm to descend etc. always done, with occasional pdns (but not as mpdns which is disallowed), and also gmpgrs. Also a lot of mgs, and no mgrs - although some natakurinjis allow it.

Gamakas - this is why you still cannot make the associaton. I haven't used much e.g. ni not used well, and ri also not done with nokkku/emphasis (although I do a pale adaptation in the piano part for srgm). Now these are part and parcel of natakurinji. Also gmpgrs in classic natakurinji is not flat, and mgs and ndm is often mgs and ndm (so is mnd as m/nd). In my tune, none of this followed. I wasnt happy with some of the gamakas I tried to make GarageBand do and I wasnt also being as patient

But I also felt somewhat ok with not doing them for this piece - I somehow felt that a "too carnatic" feel to the solo would be a strange fit i.e. make it harder to have a solo with the kind of feel I wanted.

One gamaka I do use (a lot) is the one with elongated ma done with a gentle gamaka as in srgm~~~ but the shake itself is perhaps westernized. Also the solo has some unusual usage e.g. guitar piece starts with S G......... - which you will never find in nk.

So while there is enough of skeleton of natakurinji, there is a lot more that is not part of classical natakurinji.

suji - I will post about chords later. In general I have gotten better at getting them now, but they are still a challenge

- but they do add a fantastic additional dimension.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 23 Jul 2009, 03:33

Arun you explained it well. I wasn't looking for a full fledged NT at all. In fact I was focusing on those vakra phrases. That gentleness I could sense even if gamakas were lacking.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Jul 2009, 05:05

Thanks for that background, Arun. OK, Suji got the raga through note identification and the specific vakram prayogams. I, lacking the note id skill, was looking for the overall raga identity. As Arun said, I can chalk it up on my heavy reliance on the gamaka based prayogas to id the raga. Arasi, what clued you in for the raga? Swaras or the direct NK identity/chAyal itself?

Arun, when you explain the chords, start with 'what does it mean to get the chords'...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jul 2009, 05:51

sure. But be forewarned that I am a novice in that regard.

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Jul 2009, 08:15

V Kokilam,
By a sense for the rAgam and the cAyai (as you put it).. The notes come to me afterwards. Well, my peculiarity, I suppose. As you say, for a four minute piece, it has a lot of stuff.

tkb · Post by **tkb** » 23 Jul 2009, 08:31

arunk, The track sounds great!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 23 Jul 2009, 23:40

Thanks tkb!

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Aug 2009, 04:13

One more : http://sunson.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/the-beginning/

Again, your comments and inputs (and tolerance ), if any, are appreciated.

This one was a lot of fun to create. Perhaps because the intervals that figure here are unusual in western music. The raga may be obvious during the first melody starts (at least mela should be obvious).

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 15 Aug 2009, 08:48

the mela and janya(featured in your CW I think) I got it. Saw your chords too. Will have to listen to it more. The melody is filmish but the blend with chords is good.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 15 Aug 2009, 22:29

Yes - featured in one of my CW.

> The melody is filmish
I certainly consciously avoided a cm type of melody with a chord background i.e. the frequently found type in CM related fusion (also hard to do without real instruments!). The aim as I mentioned was to take the underlying structure and try to style a melody with western type patterns (this I would think applies more so for the guitar portions).

But if the scale itself is very foreign to WM and has a strong association to Indian classical music (like it is so here), it is perhaps only natural that the end result makes people associate the melody to the film world where you do have similar kind of thing happening (i.e. cm ragas being presented in a non-cm way).

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Aug 2010, 07:56

http://sunson.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/five-on-eight/

This is really not fusion - and is more silmisham resulting from confusion

Arun

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 10 Aug 2010, 11:12

Hey !!!
Kollywood is waiting for you . You will earn millions here
Dying to hear a rathipathipriya baptised by you

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 10 Aug 2010, 12:49

sounds pretty cool arunk ... but I need some KVN or MDR return my head to a normal state!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 10 Aug 2010, 19:12

@thimma - now if it were that easy for even a dabbler to strike gold - all the gold would have been used up long ago

@mohan -

- I do hear you (although there is loud ringing ....)

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Jan 2011, 09:18

The latest escapade created entirely on the iPad: http://sunson.wordpress.com/2011/01/18/a-spring-union/

I could be wrong, but amongst the one i have done so far (barring the Bebot one), I think the raga in this one should be much easier to identify ones the melody starts (particularly the second solo) - this is mainly because of the raga chosen.

Any comments are really appreciated.

Arun

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 19 Jan 2011, 10:14

Take a listen to the fusion music at http://www.myspace.com/ashwinflute (click the music link on the left)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Jan 2011, 05:51

Here is the "video" version

http://blip.tv/file/4654079

PS: Video courtesy - the iTunes Visualizer

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Jan 2011, 05:52

mohan - nice!

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 11 Jul 2012, 20:52

http://sunson.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/ ... igaula-19/

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jul 2012, 23:09

Sounds great, Arun. It rocks, indeed. Nice change of pace from 2:43 onwards.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 28 Jul 2012, 16:13

Sounds wonderful Arun.
Was it Ritigaula or "Rocky"gaula ?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Jul 2012, 01:38

Thanks vk and cienu!

cienu - the intent was of course both

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Jul 2012, 07:44

Arun,
You may put her in leather and ask her to rock, but the original, however classy is demure even if she (or the synthesizer for that matter!) aspires to be hard rock. I feel it is tough for her to sound--well, tough! Even when she picked up speed, she couldn't but be her gentle self at core--this 'with it' (rIti) gauLa.
All the same, she was fun listening to. In leather, linen or silk, she truly will be fine on a catwalk--a run(a)way hit?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 09 Aug 2012, 01:02

ha-ha

- I guess you can change how you look, but you cannot change who you really are!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Feb 2013, 02:16

A piece in manirangu and a bit of (raga) analysis
(warning: from an amateurish viewpoint. Adv apologies for mistakes/misrepresentations).

http://sunson.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/ ... o-goliaths

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 14 Feb 2013, 00:13

Arun
This stuff is too much above me.
I enjoyed the money-wrung but failed to hear manirangu in it!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Feb 2013, 00:35

Thats fine. I will just change the name to money-wrong then

rasikas.org

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