Violin accompaniment - An analysis of the best

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 27 Aug 2013, 07:41

E SWARA-0019-INS-001-Parur brothers-MSG-MSA-Violin duet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYqSet41bxQ

There seems to be a Alapana by MSG also..??

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Aug 2013, 08:49

venkatakailasam wrote:Here is a very rare one...( not linked to the topic of the thread on hand..)

Violin-parimala ranga pate-telugu-kamboji (pallavi)played by Narayanasami Iyer Pudukottai
Recorded in March 1905 at Madras by William Sinkler Darby & Max Hampe for the Gramophone & typewriter Ltd (later- Gramophone company - HMV) One of the first recordings made in South India..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCwRYw46 ... e=youtu.be

rare find indeed venkatakailasam. The tone of his violin is quite different.

Vikram Sampath's site has two more of his songs.

http://archiveofindianmusic.org/artist_sound_clips/154

(the second one is laeled 'Hamsadwani'. It sounds quite folkish. Is it Hamsadhwani?)

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 27 Aug 2013, 09:23

VKM,
good catch. Surely it is not Hamsadhwani - has prominent Dha and Ma....and only some Ni... definitely a folksy raga (Jinjhuti-ish)

kittappa · Post by **kittappa** » 27 Aug 2013, 10:51

The concert was a violin concert of Mali's in 1956. My grandfather had attended that concert. Mali's violin play was so entrancing, full of sruti shuddham and sublime that Chowdiah feared that his reputation in Karnataka would nosedive. He therefore behaved as he did. The audience shouted and heckled Mali and asked him to take up and play the flute. Someone thrust a flute in his hands and he played. Many who attended that concert can testify to this unsavoury happening. According to many rasika of those times Mali had no equal in violin play, none including Papa, Rajamanikkam Pillai or Dwaram or Chowdiah or LGJ, TNK, MSG etc could ever imagine the kind of quality that Mali exhibited on the violin.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 27 Aug 2013, 11:01

http://chowdaiahandparvati.blogspot.in/ ... -mali.html

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 27 Aug 2013, 11:17

kittappa wrote:According to many rasika of those times Mali had no equal in violin play, none including Papa, Rajamanikkam Pillai or Dwaram or Chowdiah or LGJ, TNK, MSG etc could ever imagine the kind of quality that Mali exhibited on the violin.

Why not mridangam and vina ! According the same mysterious rasikas, Palghat Mani Iyer, Palani Subramania Pillai and others couldn't even imagine that kind of mridangam playing in their wildest dreams. As for vina, S Balachander was ready to bump him off in jealousy and envy. In fact, Mali is Krishnavatara himself and if not for his malicious detractors and McDowells, he would have led all of mankind to moksha.

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Aug 2013, 11:30

Krishnavatar.

Geniuses and brain haemorrhage.
Geniuses and eccentricity.
Geniuses and seclusion.

All of the above : Malli.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 27 Aug 2013, 12:05

mali holding violin...

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 27 Aug 2013, 12:16

There seems to be a similar incident involving Chembai..

" Conflict In Chettinad [1936]

The place - Kottaiyur in Chettinad. The occasion - a wedding. Chembai was giving a performance with Mysore T. Chowdiah (violin), Palakkad Mani lyer (mridanga) and Pudukkotai Dakshinamurthy Pillai (kanjeera) as his sidemen. When there was a pause in the proceedings, a prominent person stood up and said the guests assembled desired to hear Chowdiah play solo. The violinist could not find any reaction on Chembai's face. He continued to sing and the sidemen performed with him.

There was another interruption soon. Now there was a chorus demanding a solo performance from the Mysorean. Chembai and his cohorts continued to ignore the clamour. In the event, there was confusion and many of the guests began leaving, while some came near the platform and shouted.

Chembai now stopped singing and, with an air of insouciance, asked: "What is it you want, please?" The common response was: "We want Chowdiah to play the English Note!"

Whereupon, Chembai said: "That's all! Okay, I will conclude my concert in a few minutes and after that you can ask him to play for you what you want".

The chorus sang: "No! we want him to play now!"

Chembai spoke again now, quietly but firmly. He explained the tradition followed in music concerts and said that it was not the done thing for an accompanist to play a piece which the main musician had not taken up.

The angry audience was not mollified; if anything, the lecture seemed to have irritated them further. Some said other musicians had heeded similar requests made by them.

Chembai said that he could not oblige simply because others had done so. "I will now conclude the concert by singing the mangalam. You can then do what you want."

An angry man shouted Chembai would not ever again be invited to perform in the town. Chembai replied that he was not born to sing only for the people of Kottaiyur and that he was not very earnest to perform there.

The news spread Chembai had antagonised the people of Chettinad.

But, when tempers cooled, good sense prevailed. Members of the community soon decided to invite Chembai to sing at another function in the town. Bhagavatar again performed with the same set. It had ended well; and all was well.

http://chembai.com/chembaianecdotes.html

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 27 Aug 2013, 12:26

and said that it was not the done thing for an accompanist to play a piece which the main musician had not taken up.

Gosh ! How times change :-*

pattamaa · Post by **pattamaa** » 27 Aug 2013, 12:59

>>. Gosh ! How times change :-*

Time just started changing since last one year! expect more changes soon in sitting position etc

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 27 Aug 2013, 14:08

" Time just started changing since last one year! expect more changes soon in sitting position etc "

There seems to have been a misunderstanding between TC and Palani Subramania pillai in Chembai's concert..
" The first Chembai kutcheri in which Palani Subbudu participated as a sideman was in 1926. Thereafter he played for Chembai numerous times, until his premature demise in 1962. It appears Subbudu ran into a difficulty with violinist Chowdiah at one time. As a southpaw, he had to sit to the left of the vocalist, but Chowdiah objected to this - not once but many times. Chembai, however, backed Subbudu.

He told Chowdiah he would realize the correctness of this arrangement one day.

His words came true some years later. The backing Chembai gave Subbudu manifested itself in a remarkable manner during a 1941 performance in Bombay. Bhagavatar made room for as many as four tanis, or percussion solo interludes, during the concert. According to Subbudu, Chembai instinctively knew the role the sidemen could play in making a concert a success."
These are there always and are as old as when Concerts started in Sabhas...

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 27 Aug 2013, 18:06

SrinathK wrote:Chowdiah used 3 very closely spaced pairs of strings tuned 1 octave apart and it always sounded like he was playing octaves on his violin.

Yes but there's a peculiar imbalance in his use of octaves which gives a strange effect like "Shepard tones" if you listen closely. I can see why he did it...So lets beging at the beginning (BTW, I haven't seen Chowdiah in action, the video posted too grainy to make detailed observations, so all of this is merely by listening carefully):

The violin's G-D-A-E strings are tuned as S1-P1-S2-P2 in CM (ignoring variations by Smt. Narmadha such as P1-S1-P2-S2). Also, the strings decrease in gauge in that order. Also, the last string (E string) is a plain steel string while the others are wound strings. From this starting point, Chowdiah seems to have striven to boost volume as well as bring that unique octave tone by pairing the P1, S2 and P2 strings with their octave, closely spaced so that he could bow and stop in pairs. The last string, S1 was left by itself and Chowdiah rarely played it anyway.

Now comes the interesting part...should the additional string for each pair be tuned one octave up or down ? Chowdiah did it as follows:

1) For the P1 string, he chose to tune the pair DOWN by an octave, choosing a heavy gauge (possibly viola?) string.

2) For the S2 string, the main Sarani, he chose to tune the pair UP by an octave, possibly using a string of the same gauge as the E string.

3) For the P2 string, the main panchama, he chose to tune DOWN by an octave. The reason is obvious...one octave up from the E string would sound too shrill.

So the final configuration is as follows:

1) S1
2) P0-P1
3) S2-S3
4) P1-P2

The main sets of playing strings are 3) and 4) above and one can immediately see the anomaly that leads to the "Shepard tone" effect. While the Sarani is paired with it's higher octave, the Panchama is paired with its lower octave. This was poor Chowdiah's great conundrum which with his great vidwat and panache he bravely carried on. Another problem for Chowdiah was that the inherent divergence of the strings made the double stopping harder as he went up the finger board. Still he managed gamely all the way to mel Panchama on the Pa pair without difficulty.

I would have loved to work with Chowdiah to try to "solve" these problems

. Sadly, the seven string innovation is all but dead because the orthodoxy has decided that one should not tamper with the ancient, sastric, vedic Indian instrument called the "vayalin" introduced to the pristine art form called Carnatic music by Baluswamy Dikshithar in the ancient days of circa 1830 AD.

SrinathK wrote:This would (if I remember the physics right) increase the intensity by a factor of 4x.

Not really. Also, a word of caution about mixing intensity and the psychoacoustic perception of loudness. So here's a quick primer...

Acoustic pressure p is analogous to voltage V and hence power P is proportional to its square. But you can't reduce that to saying that the intensity increases by a "factor of 4x". It's a little more complicated. When you add a string, ignoring other effects, you are not increasing p because each string vibrates at the same original amplitude and hence radiates a pressure wave with the same peak or RMS value. Each of these pressure wave have the same power so you're basically doubling the power. However, it doesn't end there either. Power is measured in dB with reference to some reference ambient noise level. Let us assume that the power of the ambient noise is P0. Now recall that dB is calculated as 10log(power ratio) or 20log(pressure or voltage ratio). So we have:

Intensity of 1 string (dB) = 10logP/P0 (1)
Intensity of 2 strings (dB) = 10log2P/P0 (2)

Now recall that logAB = logA + logB

Therefore, splitting equation (2) appropriately,

intensity of 2 strings (dB) = 10logP/P0 + 10log2

Plugging in the value of 10log2,

Intensity of 2 strings = intensity of 1 string + 3dB

But wait...a 3dB increase in intensity says nothing about the psychoacoustics of loudness perception. Empirical studies have shown that on average, the human mind perceives a doubling of loudness for every 10dB increase in acoustic power.

So bottom line: Chowdiah's pairing of strings will increase the perception of loudness by about 30-35%.

ERRATA
In the interest of accuracy, please note that the word "power" is used loosely above. For example, "power" is not measured in dB, it's measured in Watts. However, what I mean is a power ratio.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 27 Aug 2013, 18:42

I am unable to comprehend whether TC who seems to have had no formal education..

can build so much complex mathematical calculations in to the system…

These can be attained only by constant practice ( “ asura Sadhakam “) and

keen observation of cause and effect…as well as trail and error…

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 27 Aug 2013, 19:19

venkatakailasam,
The math is not "complex" by any stretch of imagination

. However, the intention of my post was to clarify something posted by SrinathK and not to suggest that Chowdiah used the math. That is an unfortunate misreading on your part. To give you an analog that may help...the mridangam was built by craftsmen for millennia using traditional empirical methods but C.V.Raman wrote an analytical, "mathematical" paper on it. Similarly, Chowdiah did something intuitively while we try to put it in some analytical framework. Get it ?

BTW, as for myself, I actually like working with my hands to build musical instruments while keeping the math in sight to provide a little bit of analytical markers along the way.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 27 Aug 2013, 19:30

US..I understand...thank you..

alpajnani · Post by **alpajnani** » 27 Aug 2013, 20:51

uday_shankar wrote:
....
So the final configuration is as follows:

1) S1
2) P0-P1
3) S2-S3
4) P1-P2

The main sets of playing strings are 3) and 4) above and one can immediately see the anomaly that leads to the "Shepard tone" effect. While the Sarani is paired with it's higher octave, the Panchama is paired with its lower octave. This was poor Chowdiah's great conundrum which with his great vidwat and panache he bravely carried on. Another problem for Chowdiah was that the inherent divergence of the strings made the double stopping harder as he went up the finger board. Still he managed gamely all the way to mel Panchama on the Pa pair without difficulty.

I would have loved to work with Chowdiah to try to "solve" these problems . Sadly, the seven string innovation is all but dead because the orthodoxy has decided that one should not tamper with the ancient, sastric, vedic Indian instrument called the "vayalin" introduced to the pristine art form called Carnatic music by Baluswamy Dikshithar in the ancient days of circa 1830 AD.

......

Acoustic pressure p is analogous to voltage V and hence power P is proportional to its square. But you can't reduce that to saying that the intensity increases by a "factor of 4x". It's a little more complicated. When you add a string, ignoring other effects, you are not increasing p because each string vibrates at the same original amplitude and hence radiates a pressure wave with the same peak or RMS value. Each of these pressure wave have the same power so you're basically doubling the power. However, it doesn't end there either. Power is measured in dB with reference to some reference ambient noise level. Let us assume that the power of the ambient noise is P0. Now recall that dB is calculated as 10log(power ratio) or 20log(pressure or voltage ratio). So we have:

Intensity of 1 string (dB) = 10logP/P0 (1)
Intensity of 2 strings (dB) = 10log2P/P0 (2)

Now recall that logAB = logA + logB

Therefore, splitting equation (2) appropriately,

intensity of 2 strings (dB) = 10logP/P0 + 10log2

Plugging in the value of 10log2,

Intensity of 2 strings = intensity of 1 string + 3dB

But wait...a 3dB increase in intensity says nothing about the psychoacoustics of loudness perception. Empirical studies have shown that on average, the human mind perceives a doubling of loudness for every 10dB increase in acoustic power.

So bottom line: Chowdiah's pairing of strings will increase the perception of loudness by about 30-35%.

ERRATA
In the interest of accuracy, please note that the word "power" is used loosely above. For example, "power" is not measured in dB, it's measured in Watts. However, what I mean is a power ratio.

Uday_Shankar - excellent analytical writeup. One thing I would like to clarify however is the P0 value you use (in the intensity comparison calculations) is not truly the same for the two strings. The predominant component of P0 is arguably whatever swara the main player is singing at that instant [and for arguments sake: + the hum of the sruti (which is "broadband") + any mridangam output (broadband lower on left side and S1 on the right) - which can be quite large in amplitude]. Hence, in the frequency domain, the "noise floor" for the two strings are different.....(given perception is frequency specific, we have to separate out the noise floor by frequency domain buckets)

In line with this it is a common technique to play an octave higher or lower if you want the violin to standout. Where Chowdiah's genius lies is that with this design he ALWAYS has a component that is higher or lower by an octave regardless of where the main singer was singing.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 27 Aug 2013, 21:51

alpajnani wrote:Hence, in the frequency domain, the "noise floor" for the two strings are different...

Yeah, I know...I struggled with that for a minute but I just wanted to introduce the minimal quick and dirty analysis without getting deeper into the DSP stuff.

alpajnani wrote:Where Chowdiah's genius lies is that with this design he ALWAYS has a component that is higher or lower by an octave regardless of where the main singer was singing.

Precisely ! This is what led him not to use two identical strings in unison. Octaves stand out uniquely. This also proves that Chowdiah's goal was more than just volume ( the usual "Soundiah" or "Sevudiah" nonsense quoted by idiots all over the Carnatic world).

VijayR · Post by **VijayR** » 28 Aug 2013, 04:02

uday_shankar wrote: But wait...a 3dB increase in intensity says nothing about the psychoacoustics of loudness perception. Empirical studies have shown that on average, the human mind perceives a doubling of loudness for every 10dB increase in acoustic power.

So bottom line: Chowdiah's pairing of strings will increase the perception of loudness by about 30-35%.

Uday, very lucid explanation!!! Minor edit to accentuate your point... in fact, an increase of 3dB in intensity is not even 30-35% in perceived loudness. It is only about 23% in perceived loudness.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 28 Aug 2013, 06:05

Bravo !!! Uday and the original Poster Srinath. I am reminded of a A PERSIAN FABLE
------
Sing a song of Glory, and you will be that Glory.
Nothing , are you , but a song ; And as you sing, You are.

You thought you were the teacher.
And you find you are the one who is taught.

You thought you were the seeker,
And you find you are the one who is sought.
---------------

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 28 Aug 2013, 07:12

https://archive.org/details/01VarnamKhamboji

This Violin_VeeNa DUET Was broadcast from ALL INDIA RADIO, MADRAS, in 1975.
Mysore_T_Chowdiah- Violin
V_DoreswAmy_Iyengar-VeeNa.
CN_MuthuswAmy-Mridhangam
4.BengaLUru_KS_Manjunath-Ghatam

Recording seems to have begun a few seconds after the broadcast started and the last item abruptly ends but enough of KAmAch is there to enjoy!

alpajnani · Post by **alpajnani** » 28 Aug 2013, 07:37

uday_shankar wrote: ......
Octaves stand out uniquely. This also proves that Chowdiah's goal was more than just volume ( the usual "Soundiah" or "Sevudiah" nonsense quoted by idiots all over the Carnatic world).

From what I have read/heard (anecdotal?) his intention was to make the violin "heard" against the full throated outputs from the likes of Chembai etc. and as you correctly point out his goal was definitely no just "volume"....perhaps more knowledgeable rasikas with more personal lines into Chowdiah could enlighten us (RSachi?).

That said, I have heard lesser players (who shall remain unnamed) try their hand at the 7 stringed approach and truly fail miserably.....an experience that has made me appreciate Chowdiah's skill (and perhaps the width of his fingers as well) quite a bit

One has to realize that he not only had to develop the 7 stringed mechanical setup, but had to also figure out a completely new Bani (particular gamaka's to avoid, fingering techniques etc.) so as not to make apaswaras. Note that when playing in two octaves, even a very small variation (even WITHIN the structure of a gamaka/bhriga) is easily amplified and stands out - particularly any slight variations in position between the two "1 octave" offset strings (which is why in certain schools of violin one is taught to play S1 on the S1 tuned string when trying to shift the index finger to the S2 position on the P2 tuned string - even a relatively new student can figure out if S2 is in the wrong position when S1 and S2 are played together!) AND each finger placement now has to be aligned not just at a single point on one string but along a line across the fingerboard - requiring much stiffer finger articulation which will limit range.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Aug 2013, 09:12

Alpajnani,
My middle name is Ajnani.
You may find more value in reading this:
: http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/12/14/stor ... 720300.htm
I do believe Uday has put the matter in excellent prospective.
Positives for adding and tuning the sympathetic strings as Chowdiah did:
1. Richer volume (30-50%)- we really have no way to check this via recordings. However when singers first protested, it was because of the loud volume.
2. Richer tone by producing higher and lower octave sympathetic vibrations - easy to understand since we get a richer tone in instruments like the sitar, chitravrena etc by additional strings any way.
Negatives:
1. Tough to play
2. Sense of apaswaras
3. Limitations on possible gamakas.

Someone clever solved a slew of problems by creating the mike system. But the cure has many other side effects, like unwanted loudness, harshness and distortion.

Perhaps the seven stringed violin is obsolete. But Chowdiah will always hold a special place in the history of Carnatic violin.

Let me close by saying that the pleasure that listening to Lalgudi and others has given me in my lifetime far exceeds the joy I got listening to Chowdiah. I did hear him live a dozen times in 50s and 60s in solo, vina violin combo and with big name vocalists. But then I am also an alparasika apart from being an ajnani.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 28 Aug 2013, 09:32

VijayR wrote:in fact, an increase of 3dB in intensity is not even 30-35% in perceived loudness. It is only about 23% in perceived loudness.

Gotta be careful with all the psychoacoustic stuff

. It's a subjective evaluation that's already "linearized" in some way, so I made a conservative calculation, even if it might diminish my case.

Rsachi
We have not been discussing sympathetic strings here. We've been talking about Chowdiah's main playing strings. The sympathetic string version was the "19 stringed violin" that Chowdiah was supposed to have brought to some concert (7 playing + 12 sympathetic strings).

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 28 Aug 2013, 09:56

alpajnani wrote:One has to realize that he not only had to develop the 7 stringed mechanical setup, but had to also figure out a completely new Bani (particular gamaka's to avoid, fingering techniques etc.) so as not to make apaswaras. Note that when playing in two octaves, even a very small variation (even WITHIN the structure of a gamaka/bhriga) is easily amplified and stands out - particularly any slight variations in position between the two "1 octave" offset strings (which is why in certain schools of violin one is taught to play S1 on the S1 tuned string when trying to shift the index finger to the S2 position on the P2 tuned string - even a relatively new student can figure out if S2 is in the wrong position when S1 and S2 are played together!) AND each finger placement now has to be aligned not just at a single point on one string but along a line across the fingerboard - requiring much stiffer finger articulation which will limit range.

This is very important. One more thing to add (and then I have to sign out...crazy busy!) is related to the well-known fret and bridge position of guitars. When strings of different gauges, say tuned an octave apart, are pressed down on the fret board (or finger board in the case of the violin) there are small variations in the positions of the notes due to several physical characteristics. And it may vary from one string to another, height, etc...We encounter such problems routinely with chitravina, where the Sarani and Panchama are reinforced with the mandhara. Electric guitars often have individually adjustable bridges for each string, to address the problem. The problem gets accentuated as you proceed up the fretboard. This problem is probably the root cause for Chowdiah's difficulties with apashrutis from time to time in his last days. If he had lived longer, perhaps he would have designed a violin with individually adjustable bridges for each string

. That would have greatly mitigated the problem.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 28 Aug 2013, 10:17

Rsachi wrote: 2. Richer tone by producing higher and lower octave sympathetic vibrations - easy to understand since we get a richer tone in instruments like the sitar, chitravrena etc by additional strings any way.

Reading the technicalities that Uday put is excellent .

Coming to the summation of the Rsachi. When i hear vidwan Chowdiah I only hear a more wider range of tones . My ears does not hear Richer tone . Possibly that difference of keywords Wider and Richer is the key. A better way to say richer tone is nAdham in thamizh.

Tx Uday , Alpajnani and Srinath for your last few posts.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Aug 2013, 10:42

Sure, Uday, perhaps I should have used the word 'interference patterns' and not 'sympathetic'.
Here is a picture of Chowdiah's violin:

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 28 Aug 2013, 13:17

Rsachi, thanks for the fantastic picture. I am thrilled to say that it practically confirms all my earlier speculations about string gauges and UP or DOWN octaves. The only surprise (SrinathK, do you think?) is the thickness of the main panchama strings (right extreme of picture). Clearly Chowdiah did not use the normal steel E strings for his panchamas. Both the panchama strings look like wound strings although their gauges are certainly less that the lower panchama pair. Also confirmed is that the main shadja pair is tuned UP, with a steel string probably of the same gauge as an E string. Also confirmed is that the lower Sa is allowed languish by itself at one end, seldom if ever played

.

Also informative is the divergence of the strings up the finger board although they converge much closer at the far end...still it vouches for the width of Chowdiah's fingers as speculated by alpajnani.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 28 Aug 2013, 16:17

In the initial years, he faced stiff resistance from the music fraternity about its usage. His Guru, Bidaram Krishnappa himself led the protest, but was later reconciled to i t.

When Chowdiah used it for accompanying Ariyakkudi, the maestro asked the violinist as to how many more strings he had in his violin-case.

Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer derisively remarked that singing to the seven-stringed violin accompaniment was like singing in a smithy. The violin was so loud that it was only Chembai who was not bothered about it. After all, had he not once sung with the nagaswaram as his accompaniment? Madurai Mani Iyer too, did not have a problem, for in his concerts there was only one mike and so the violin was rather muted.
Punning on name GNB simply called him ‘Sound-iah’. The Dhanammal family, with their sardonic humour, punned on his name and called him ‘Sevu’diah, hinting that the sound would make ears deaf.
one can add C.S.Iyer, brother of Nobel laureate Sir C.V.Raman and a former Accountant General also to the above list..

Read more about it at..
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2007/12/14/stor ... 720300.htm

He with stood the assaults but , after his time, except for a couple of disciples such as Sethuramiah, everyone else reverted to the four-stringed violin ...

I may be enlightened, after all what is it that we are trying to prove...??
Is it that with multiple number of strings, he can be considered superior to his contemporaries in playing violin?

In the process, it is feared that many of his concerts for which links are available here are not assessed..

BTW, can it be considered for submitting a paper on this subject of multiple number of strings to MA..in Jan.2014...?

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 28 Aug 2013, 16:38

Oh my, I didn't know that the strings were so far apart! The P1-P0 and S2-S3 strings are almost equally spaced, so bowing would have been equally tricky. Chowdiah did have a huge hand and large fingers and that would have definitely helped, but it does not make playing such an instrument any easier. @uday_shankar I think only the S3 string is a steel E.

I also add that apart from it's tone, the violin would have been far too difficult to play and certain gamakas and phrases would have to be avoided. That and the development of the mic made sure it wouldn't last for long.

The thing is such a violin would have sounded ok only for a mic-less setting. Next to a mike, it would have been very "edgy" indeed. There are those recordings of Chowdiah with a mic while accompanying and the sound is so strong I personally think the vocalist's mike would have been enough for the job.

@Uday, Now I know that the theoretical sound amplification is about 3 dB, but considering the comments the violin got from critics, it was possibly even louder. But it's probably the very sharp edge in it's sound that made it harsh sounding from close quarters and which gives an illusion of even louder volume than normal. However, for a mic-less concert the violin would have sounded quite well to the audience about 20-30 feet away (See my earlier post above where I was talking about "scratchy bowing").

@venkatakailasam, There's nothing to "prove" here, it is for our curiosity as to how the problem of the violin's small tone was addressed back in the mic-less days. The whole thing started because of the lower sruthis of male vocalists. The violin projects well because of it's high pitch to which the human ear is more sensitive. But when the tuning was lowered to almost viola pitch, the violin lost some power and tone and the sound would also not be heard as easily by the human ear.

Also on a side note, the original motive behind the development of modern vibrato back in the 19th century was when halls got bigger and bigger and the violinist had to make oneself heard more easily. The stradivarius and Guarnerius violins and the modern concave curved bow were all designed for greater power and projection back in their day as compared to older violins. Similarly Chowdiah also made his own contribution to the development of the violin. He was probably the only violinist in history who had to struggle not to be louder

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 28 Aug 2013, 18:05

A profile..

'E'-SWARA-Mysore-T Choudiah-Violinist-A ten minutes Journey through his life...

http://wikibit.net/youtube/4qyjRBz2Rq0/ ... s-life.flv

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 28 Aug 2013, 18:35

venkatakailasam wrote:I may be enlightened, after all what is it that we are trying to prove...??

We're not trying to prove anything at all...just shooting the breeze, having fun thinking aloud and trying to develop a better understand of Chowdiah's unique innovation. SrinathK's post above sums it up very well.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 28 Aug 2013, 21:08

And here's another thing I can't fail to add -- Mudicondan Venkatrama Iyer gave a demonstration of an unimaginable 32 KALAI (!!??$$#%#@*^) Shanmarga Pallavi at the Music Academy in 1955. Three guesses -- who was the violinist?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Aug 2013, 21:34

I think it was LGJ. VKV

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 28 Aug 2013, 23:12

deleted

(erroneous posting)

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 28 Aug 2013, 23:34

@VKV, Yup! LGJ it was. Mridangist was Pazhani Subramania Pillai. When my brain has sufficiently recovered from the shock of what it has just read in "An incurable Romantic", I'll talk more... 32 kalais -- let the sheer magnitude of that slowly sink in...

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 29 Aug 2013, 06:14

I think the Mudikondan demo was in Simhanandana Talam--128 beats(I could be wrong)--this :bit" is included in the CD that comes with the book Incurable Romantic--also the Sankeerna nadai Pallavi with Alathur Bros--LGJ was the accompanist.It seems Alathur and PMI had discussed before hand the outlines of the Pallavi and apparently PMI felt as a matter of professional courtesy that LGJ be "cued in" to which Alathur apparently said That won't be necessary--he (LGJ) will manage--the rest is history!!At the end of the concert Alathur Subbier embraced LGJ heartily and is purported to have said "Nee Singakuttida". A sidebar to this incident related to me by GJR as told to him by fan of LGJ from Bombay
Apparently the "fan" years ago met LGJ and recounted the MA Kutcheri where the Sankeerna Nadai Pallavi was rendered and asked LGJ" I understand after the concert Subbier prostated before him--is it true? to which LGJ apparently replied No such thing happened --just Subbier dripping with sweat embraced LGJ and said Nee Singakutti Da !!

In recounting this exchange the "fan" apparently remarked to GJR about LGJ's integrity--namely with Subbbier long dead and gone a certain hyperbole about the incident glorifying the achievement may be understandable but LGJ chose not to indulge in that level of self-aggrandizement.
Let me add my own 10cents to the discussion of who is the best violin accompanist--having heard TC,Rajamanikkam,Papa,TNK,MSG,MC,VVS--I vote for LGJ not only for his technical virtuosity but alacrity in taking musical cues from the Vocalist or mridangist(PMI has mentioned several instances when PMI would give a "cue" in the midst of a swara exchange as to what would be the most appropriate swara korvai to follow based on what LGJ played and this wouldbe picked up instantaneously by LGJ discarding what(LGJ) himself may have planned for the next swara sequence(forumites bear with me for this clumsy explanation--not being a Laya expert!!).

If a secret ballot were to be taken involving all the great artistes of more than one generation,I believe LGJ would outscore everybody else(although during their own singing days these same musicians may have resented LGJ's initiatives putting them down as youthful insouciance!!!)--On different occasions I have personally heard comments by SSI,GNB,Alathur,PMI,Palani extolling virtues of LGJ playing.
All said and done this is subjective and just my opinion!!! I have enjoyed each and one of the other artistes mentioned in these discussions--all of them had one common trait--asura sadakam that made their styles distinct and enjoyable--just listen to a LIVe TNK solo-@85 his tonal quality and blemish less playing takes one's breath away!!!

maduraimini · Post by **maduraimini** » 29 Aug 2013, 07:34

Lalgudi sure was a very good violinist and accompanied major vidwans of his time. I loved his music. But how about T.N.Krishnan? He accompanied Ariyakkudi, GNB, M.S. and others very ably. His music is still lilting and melodious. He can also play fast songs and had 'viruviruppu' when needed. His Hindustani ragas were fabulous. I think each artist has his or her own way of playing and try to do their Best. Everyone has their favorite. At present, Embar Kannan plays the violin very well , as does Kanyakumari. Lalgudi's son Krishnan and daughter Vijayalakshmi give good concerts. T.N.K's sister Rajam is a superb violinist, although she mostly plays Hindustani ragas. VVS was good and so are the other old and new artists. As for me, I listen to the artist during the concert and appreciate him for that concert. Of course I am partial to T.N.K and Lalgudi from the older set. I don't know about kanakku and all the other things. For me it has to be melodious to listen to without any abhaswaram. Papa was a wonderful artist. How about Dwaram Venkataswamy Naidu ? His music was divine. If my memory is correct, I have heard him play solo or with Dwaram Mangatayaru. I have heard Kumbakonam Rajamanickam Pillai and it was good. We have wonderful artists who play the violin as an accompaniment or solo and they entrance us.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 29 Aug 2013, 08:22

While reading Shri MKR 's post above on Sankeerna nadai Pallavi , I am reminded of a story which I read some time back...
This was about Shri TRS...
" Much before he became the eminent Professor and well-known laya expert, the young T.R.S. was an entrant in the Pallavi competition at the Madras Music Academy. Applicants were supposed to submit their contact info, and the details of the pallavi they were going to perform (sahityam, raga, tala, eduppu). As T.R.S. was seated, the judges saw that his application only contained his name, and the sahityam of the pallavi.

When the judges (among whom were the Alathur Brothers) asked him what the particulars of the pallavi were, T.R.S. merely said "whatever ragam you want me to sing, I'll sing." They gave him Mukhari.

T.R.S. performed his raga alapana and thanam in Mukhari, and then asked what talam to sing his pallavi in. The Alathur Brothers, deciding that this young man needed a challenge, asked him to sing his pallavi set to sankeerna chapu talam in sankeerna nadai.

T.R.S. agreed, and proceeded to sing a flawless pallavi with the sahityam he had written, set to the raga and tala that the judges had selected. While singing the pallavi, he was showing a simple sankeerna chapu talam in his hands, while the judges, stalwart laya experts themselves, were scrambling to show the sankeerna nadai with it, to make sure that this young man was singing it correctly.

At the end of the competition after all the participants had finished, someone came and asked the judges who had won the competition. A judge responded, "who else could have won but Subrahmanyam?"

courtesy is at:

http://www.aradhana.org/blog/2010/02/an ... llavi.html

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 29 Aug 2013, 09:12

There is one composition in the Raga kalyani set to this one, composed by HMB..

ambOdara sOdara. rAgA: kalyANi. sankIrNacApu tALA
lyrics.....P: lambOdara sOdarA navamaNi hArA
A: kumbOdbhava vandita kumAra guha shaNmukha
C: vArijAsanAdi vinuta varadAyaka mArakOTi rUpa suguNa mahanIyA nAkOrinia
varamunu nosangi nannubrovumu shUradamana harikEshapura nivAsa ...
Listen it here on violin...( courtesy Shri TVG)
SR Mahadeva_Sharma-Violin-

http://mfi.re/listen/r0o4fccchewodc3/SR ... alyANi.mp3

Shri Sanjay Sub..also rendered this song at this link..

http://mio.to/list_albums/i/10-classica ... rna_Chapu/

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Aug 2013, 12:23

Coming back to Chowdiah's accompaniment, when it came to accompanying GNB, Chowdiah would often precede GNB's essays into the upper register as at the time GNB was at his peak and it was exceedingly difficult for any violinist to follow him into the upper octave. TC and PMI also executed strategic pauses in their accompaniment to create a sense of anticipation in the air and would then burst into playing at the right point much to the thrill of the audience.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 29 Aug 2013, 14:09

Ramasubramanian M.K wrote:I think the Mudikondan demo was in Simhanandana Talam--128 beats

MKR sir, while that was "the" famous demo, which took place circa 1971, there was indeed a 32 kalai pallavi sung by Shri Mudicondan in 1955. I didn't know the great LGJ, barely 25 years old, was the accompanist then too. UKS (barely 20!) has been recorded as the mridangist for that 1955 concert too ! History that was repeated in 1971 ?!

venkatakailasam wrote:sankeerna chapu talam in sankeerna nadai

There is something wrong with this narrative

. It was probably Sankeerna jaathi triputa taala (or some such suladi sapta taala) in sankeerena nadai. Then it makes sense. Sankeerna "chappu" taala is simply a 4 1/2 akshara tala of tha ka dhi mi tha ka tha ki ta (2:2:2:3). It is not "in" any nadai.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 29 Aug 2013, 16:00

A AIR concert from sp archives uploaded by KS Srinivasan one hour and 26mts

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/kss/14-TChowdiah/

http://mfi.re/listen/5b6cd8550m6c2e3/My ... owdiah.mp3

Above has been provided by varsha in an earlier post..

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 29 Aug 2013, 18:37

There is nothing I can usefully contribute to this, but just wanted to say how interesting the ongoing conversation is. I'm glad it continued

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 29 Aug 2013, 19:48

@uday Are you sure? I have read that PSP was the mridangist for the 32 kalai pallavi.

@sankeerna chaapu talam ? Since sankeerna chaapu is used for rendering the sankeerna nadai , That would make it a sankeerna nadai WITHIN a sankeerna nadai !

Since sankeerna chaapu has 18 counts in a cycle in the regular 4/4 time, changing that to sankeerna nadai in 9/4 time yields 40.5 counts in a cycle and I don't think that works out. In 2 kalai that would give 81 notes in one cycle which is feasible in theory but I do not know if kalai applies to chaapu talas.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 30 Aug 2013, 06:02

Are there any concerts where he played for Smt MSS..?

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 30 Aug 2013, 17:59

There is a lull in rasikas.org ..I thought I can break it..

Here is a violin accompaniment to Mandolin...

Sri.U.Srinivas-Mandolin
Kum.A.Kanyakumari-Violin
Sri.K.V.Prasad-Mridangam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1FIupUCsj4

Sri.U.Srinivas-Mandolin Live Concert held during the year 1988

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc3uOv_-qA8

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 30 Aug 2013, 18:13

venu and violin...

E SWARA 014-RTP-Simhendramadhyamam-N Ramani-Lalgudi G Jayaraman-Trichi Sankaran...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4uXCSsdBWc

குழல் இனிது யாழ் இனிது என்பார்
ஜெயராமன் வயலின் இசையை கேளாதவர்…..

( kuzhal inidu yAzh inidu enbAr
jeyarAman vayalin isaiyai kELAdavar)

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 01 Sep 2013, 12:32

https://archive.org/details/01VarnamtvGhanaRagamalika
We move on to the next
Sublime

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 01 Sep 2013, 12:48

The best recordings I have in my small collection of Prof.TNK are his accompaniment to Ariyakudi. I request some samples of his accompaniment to the Chatur Raga malika pallavi and especially his amazing reply in the Tanam! The album also features the most haunting sindhubhairavi I have heard till date! Not to mention his extremely soothing Thodi.