Karnatic Music: Past, Present and Future

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 25 Dec 2013, 12:07

(moderator note: This was split from http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 5&start=25 )

Thanks sudarsam and thanks once again CommonMan for your reactions.....one thing we all of us agree is that we as "rasikas" are here to enjoy good music and keep Carnatic Music "alive". But from the large number of empty seats I see in the current ongoing season at the Music Academy and NGS, for even renown singers, we have grounds to be concerned abut its future. The reasons are manifold and are valid - an increasing older generation and hence their lesser mobility, the road traffic conditions, lack of parking space, the cost of petrol/diesel and the cost of drivers, alternate engaging/entertainment possibilities -TV and Internet need special mention - and concerts coming directly into your home (TV/live streaming/DVDs) etc, instead of YOU GOING to concerts. Add to these are the generation changes. My father-in-law, a great "rasika" and carnatic music connoisseur(would have been 110 years in 2015), life Patron of the Academy, personal friend of Musiri, Semmangudi etc has 10 grandchildren. 7 of them are not at all interested in Carnatic music - nor can they read or write Tamil. So where is the future for these arts - classical music and Tamil literature? Carnatic Music is kept alive only by TamBrahms who form just 6% of the population. Go to Villupuram and the street boys will know Michael Jackson and not Muthuswamy Dikshithar!

Change has become an integral part of life and as Ms Angela Merkel, Chancellor (PM) of Germany said "The problem is not just about change...but how FAST we are changing!" Unless something fundamental happens, I think that Carnatic Music will go the way Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Pali have gone - as well as what is happening to Opera Music in the West and Bharata Natyam here. Will not happen tomorrow or in 20 years....but 100 years from now? Let us all think bit!

Prof K S (Mohan) Narayanan
Author, Playwright, Music Composer/Teacher, University Faculty Member in Management Studies

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 25 Dec 2013, 12:22

Well said, Prof.

I don't know how well you're following this activity area, but this forum is part of a very active and alive network of around 3000+ people immersed in year-round Carnatic music activities - performing, listening, organizing, supporting and promoting CM.

Just as the endangered tigers, bisons,rhinos and sparrows of India have found concerned denizens and activists, CM is attracting activism.

There is an organization called Spic-Macay. Please google and see what they are up to. In November alone, there were over 100 CM concerts in Bangalore attracting varying levels of audience interest.

Of course, intellectual leaders like you can also do a lot. Please actively participate in our discussions and activities. Welcome to rasikas.org!

kunthalavarali · Post by **kunthalavarali** » 25 Dec 2013, 20:49

At the same time for some artistes it is very very hard to get tickets even in advance. I was lucky to attend a few concerts by a well known vidwan, where even with additional chairs people were standing or sitting on the ramps! Compared to the 80s and 90s I feel the (absolute) numbers of concert goers have actually gone up. If the problems mentioned by the professor are solved, I am sure more people would like to attend. After all there is nothing like attending concerts live.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 26 Dec 2013, 00:40

My PROF. Late Alladi Ramakrishnan- a world traveler & Thyagaraja EXPERT-- was asked about his views about the state of Carnatic music & its future. He opined:There is no DOUBT about the audience world wide is growing by leaps& bounds a very good thing BUT when it comes to knowledge of the music especially the Compositions on the part of the ARTISTS themselves ( not to mention the audiences) the jury is ????????????????????????????????? VKV :-@ :-ss

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Dec 2013, 00:58

Those are some profound thoughts by Prof. Narayanan. Thanks sir for joining us here in this forum.
I am very much with you on TMK.

The issue of sustaining CM is interesting and we have discussed that on and off in this forum before. This may be out of topic for this thread and I can move it elsewhere later.

We can safely assume ( at least for now ) that the problem is 'demand' and not 'supply'.
Though it is presumptuous on our part to plan for what is going to happen a few generations from now, we can still think about it in broad demographic terms. CM like any other classical arts is a 3% genre (approx). That means, TamBrams(6%) need to contribute 50% from its population. But we know there are others. Let us be optimistic and say that the load TamBrams need to carry is 30% of their population. That is still a lot. Interestingly your f-i-l's grandchildren ratio falls right in line. Your family is doing its part

More seriously, I would put the blame very much on the 'serious' rasikas. What we do is equivalent to destroying or shrinking the gateway and then complaining that there are not many people coming in.

Expecting the general population to come all the way to the serious inner sanctum is unrealistic. They need some gateways and there are many artists and generes who provide that. A percentage of them will then want to go further inside the compound, if I can stretch that analogy. The serious rasikas blast those gateway artists and generes as lacking in 'azuththam' and classicism and what not. While that may be true in some cases, we need to recognize that those artists and generes are essential cogs in this CM ecosystem though they may be in the periphery.

But the mental model of the 'serous rasikas' seems to be that of a pond getting diluted with the lighter liquid coming from outside. That is quite a defeatist and protectionist attitude, That mostly arises when people do not have the necessary confidence and conviction. But if one uses my analogy, then we have many possibilities to promote and sustain CM. Having many gateways is great for a few reasons. one is that some of them will wander inside and second is, the inner sanctum can send out evangelists to where the gateways are. The chances of conversion is much higher there than in the general population. Instead of bashing such gateway artists and genres, the sufficiently motivated people should think about accommodating the existing gateway artists and genres and seriously think about constructing more gateways.

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 26 Dec 2013, 10:34

Thanks vasanthakokilam for sharing your thoughts. I highly appreciate your "gateways" analogy.

For any culture to sustain itself, as per the demographic formulae or mathematics, the followers of that culture have to grow at 1.8% per year. Below this growth rate, there will not be sufficient people to maintain that culture. For example, in the UK, France and Germany, the growth rate of those who uphold the "European Culture" is between 1.1% to 1.6% -below the required level. Compared to this the Moslem population in these countries is growing at the rate of 2.8%. So the so called European Cultured countries will soon become Islamic Republics. The German Govt has made an official statement that by 2050 Germany will be an Islamic Republic. In France, today there are more Mosques than Churches!.

Coming to the future of CN, a new generation in a family is supposed to start after 20 years (it is now perhaps 30 years, but we can safely take it as 25 years). So 25 x 1.8% per year makes it 45% or vasanthakokilam's 50% (bang on!) figure.

But the reality? Coming back to my respected F-I-L, he had 5 children, of which 4 are/were ardent CM rasikas.... that made it 80%. Of their children only 3 out of 10 are CM followers - 30%.

My question is - where is the support to CM come from? To expect this from the TamBrahm community alone is unrealistic. And why do we not see much of the other communities at the Academy or NGS or KGS? surely they also love Music. Is it because the musicians happen to be almost 100% Brahmins? Cannot be since Music is beyond caste. Or because most of the songs are rendered in Telugu? Also a big No, since Music does not have language barriers.

Other South Indian communities have contributed much to CN...from Veena Dhanammal to TN Rajarathnam Pillai and the scores of other Nadhaswaram and Thavil Vidhwans from the Tanjore belt. Not to forget about Madurai Somu, M M Dandapani Desikar, Desikavinayagam Pillai, the Tanjore Quartet...the list is endless.

So how do we involve the other South Indian communities more in CN? Here is where vasanthakokilam's opening of "more Gateways" comes. We have to take CN to the rural village streets along with "Koothu" and "Thappaatam, to the Chennai "kuppams" together with cine-Karnatik (TMK's Terminology and Spelling in his current book).

Also CM Vidhwans/Teachers must take in more students from other communities. Progress and Changes start from the right Teaching and Training.

So, my big Question is - WHEN WILL WE BE SEEING 50% OF OUR FELLOW AUDIENCES AT THE ACADEMY/NGS/KGS as NON-TAMBRAMS?

Thanks a lot Vasanthakokilam!

Prof K S (Mohan) Narayanan
Author, Playwright, Composer, Teacher

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 26 Dec 2013, 10:56

MRIDANGAM VIDWAN SRI.T.BHATHAVATSALAM TRIED VERY HARD TO TAKE CM TO THE RURAL VILLAGES ETC referred to as GATEWAYS HERE but it is not clear what the impact or results have been in this regard- JUST AN OBSERVATION. TO MY MIND THE PROBLEM IS FAR MORE COMPLICATED THAN WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED HERE.....VKV

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 26 Dec 2013, 11:28

Heard from a friend that there was a carnatic choir concert at the TAG auditorium by inner city kids. The kids were trained by Mrs. Sudha Raja (Ritvik Raja's mother). Hopefully these initiatives will become more common and bear fruit soon.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Dec 2013, 11:36

It is kind of amusing that quite fortuitously sankark in another thread alerted us to a web radio concert of manakkal rangarajan and I am listening to him now. We have heard stories about thousands of people in the so called 'mofussal' districts of tamil nadu used to listen to him for hours on end. I can actually see why. He is singing Ninnuvina (Navarasakannada ) and he is just incredible with his voice control. Part of the answer ( and not all ) may be there. Someone should go and just ask him how he managed to do it and how it can be done again.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Dec 2013, 11:52

That is very good to hear Suresh. I surely hope that those efforts are fruitful.

Narayanan, it is indeed a bit disturbing to think about what a demographic shift can do to huge cultural institutions. If Tambrams are going to remain the main supporters, let them all start having more children

But we know the trend there is also in the downward direction. ( I do not know how significantly above the replacement rate it is but from what I remember reading, the average number of kids per family in urban areas is closer to 2 than 3).

cacm, there is no doubt in my mind as well that the problem is a lot more complicated. These are all small baby steps. Interestingly, in cases like this it is not about doing things but it is about not doing things. That is, even before we do things to effect positive change, we should think about not doing things that act against our objectives. It is of course easier said than done.

Rajagopalan_V · Post by **Rajagopalan_V** » 26 Dec 2013, 12:30

Well, there have been a few initiatives lately. Am sure most veteran Rasikas here would have come across these.

Anil Srinivasan's initiative -- https://www.facebook.com/Rhapsodymusiceducation. From their page below --

// World Music to Young Children www.rhapsodymusic.in Now present in Chennai, Bangalore, Coimbatore, Erode and across rural Tamil Nadu.
An initiative to take music to children through a more integrated approach within and outside school curricula. Using specialized trainers/instructors, a critically acclaimed syllabus and methodology that takes the best from Western Classical and Indian Classical Music.//

http://www.nalandaway.org/
//NalandaWay Foundation is a non-profit that works with children from the poorest districts in India, helping them raise their voices and issues through theatre, visual arts, music, dance, radio and films. Over 7,00,000 children in Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Delhi, Bihar and Jammu & Kashmir have benefited from our programmes. Our interventions have helped them become creative, learn life-skills and build self-confidence to create the lives that they truly want to lead. //

CommonMan · Post by **CommonMan** » 26 Dec 2013, 14:59

Vasanthakokilam! I liked your analogy...sure we need spreads/gateways.....Lets say we consider the center of the perceived wheel to be say the "azhuthma, traditional" sangeethams. Few artists who were in this (elite) center drifted away to create new gateways...doing both may be great - but moving from the core for the alternative is disappointing to some like me.....new gateways created by entrants to this wheel seems far more digestible, because that has always been the case with CM generations after generations!

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 26 Dec 2013, 18:36

Rajagopalan V.....Agree, the schemes named by you are excellent for Music understanding and appreciation in general for the younger (and even elder) generations....Anil's programme covers World Music "taking the best from Western and Indian Classical Music" but here we are concerned with just South Indian Carnatic Music for which different kinds of efforts are needed. New Gateways.....How? and Where? ....and there lie our challenges. I endorse Common Man's view that "moving away from the core of CM - pure Suddha Sangeetham" - is not what we want. Musicians have tried it with Jugalbandhis and Fusion - also Cine-Karnatik is a good example. But none of these represent the real CM.

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 26 Dec 2013, 18:37

Rajagopalan V.....Agree, the schemes named by you are excellent for Music understanding and appreciation in general for the younger (and even elder) generations....Anil's programme covers World Music "taking the best from Western and Indian Classical Music" but here we are concerned with just South Indian Carnatic Music for which different kinds of efforts are needed. New Gateways.....How? and Where? ....and there lie our challenges. I endorse Common Man's view that "moving away from the core of CM - pure Suddha Sangeetham" - is not what we want. Musicians have tried it with Jugalbandhis and Fusion - also Cine-Karnatik is a good example. But none of these represent the real CM.

rsrini080463 · Post by **rsrini080463** » 26 Dec 2013, 18:49

I guess another reason for this drop in crowd - most of the sabhas have substantially increased the ticket price. They have almost doubled the ticket price. the make shift canteens are making a fortune - in a sabha, they charge 210/- per meal and Rs.80 for dosa (which is double the present saravana bhavan rates). The canteen rates is certainly not the reason for drop in crowd - but taking this opportunity to add that too

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 26 Dec 2013, 21:53

vasanthakokilam......your question on the population growth in Tamil Nadu - ! quote "Tamil Nadu's Fertility Rate has sharply declined from 3.9 children per couple in 1971 to 1.7 in the 2011 survey, an achievement on par with Kerala and is among the lowest in the country, where the national average is 2.8 against a world average of 2.6." So if the entire TN State has just 1.7 children per couple, TamBrahms may average only 1 child per couple, with many couples not having any kids.
TamBrahms are not far behind the Parsi community in India, which according to a 2011 study, showed the fertility rate amongst Parsis as 0.88, well below 2, the rate required to replace the existing population.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Dec 2013, 00:00

1.7 average? Wow, that is not good in the long run, though as a society it may provide the necessary relief for the next couple of generations. Look how far we have come, from the pre 1975 IG days of (forced) sterilization and family planning. May be the family planning public service announcements will change to one of 'go make babies'

I would like to be around to see that!

Yeah, that does not bode well for CM. Except a few, most people don't think in terms of such broad demographic terms and any early warning provided by demographers will most definitely be ignored especially if the current state of affairs is good.

But then, is it really good currently? We are seeing a mixed picture.

The superstars get huge crowds but that is how many? 10 or at best 20? I did sound my concern to my family and friend circle about this after what I saw a couple of years back. It was at a concert by vocalist Prasanna's day time concert at MFAC. It was fairly well attended but other than a dozen or so youngsters who know Prasanna, majority of them looked to be 50+. I mentioned to people around me that the first sign of decline and an early warning sign is that these kinds of 3 pm concerts go away due to lack of attendance.

To my dismay, the same year I was at a mid afternoon concert at Pethatchi by a female vocalist from Vizag based on a recommendation. I was like one of three people in the auditorium 5 minutes before the concert. While I was questioning my own choice, Cleveland Sundaram walked in which allayed my doubts. It turned out to be a pretty good concert and there were probably 15 people at high tide.

I know this is not a unique experience, several people have reported here of such poor attendance. But the saving grace was that at the academy, all those noon and afternoon concerts were rather very well attended.

It will be a bit alarming if those academy concerts start to see poor attendance. That will definitely be an early warning indicator!

Nandi · Post by **Nandi** » 30 Dec 2013, 08:31

I can understand the rationale behind CM being rendered as an art form and not restricted to just Kutcheris format ( so called format introduced by Ariyakudi).

Why should someone sing only trinity krithis ? Why can't someone sing own compositions or tune and sing literary works like silapaddhiharam, kudumba vilakku ?

You expect this art form to be presented in aesthetic bhava laden karnatic music. So, why care about lyrics (who composed etc...) as long it makes sense and on some subject ?

We need to encourage more people irrespective of caste, creed or religion to attend concerts.

I think the way we look at CM needs a radical change. What TMK is doing to an extent makes sense.

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 31 Dec 2013, 08:41

vasanthakokilam - your call "go make babies" has reached the Chinese authorities and 2 days ago they lifted the 1 child per family restriction!

That only a few "super stars" attract crowds is correct - leaving lesser known and upcoming musicians without listeners. A real case was Shertalai Ranganatha Sarma's concert at the Music Academy - 7 PM on 25th Dec, coming immediately after the jam-packed Ranjani-Gayathri perdformance. Just a handful in the audience although I found Sarma's voice, throw, diction, grasp and rendering of Rithigowla and Ranjani to be brilliant. And this is happening to seasoned vidhwans as well - My sister - in - law told me that at NGS, she herself felt bad for the small audience for Trichur Ramachandran, a veteran and recent recipient of the Sangeetha Kalanidhi Award. So where is the real interest of the CN listeners? I am at a loss to understand.

The current senior vidhwans will be naturally fading away with time and it is the younger, upcoming musicians who need to be heard and supported. The late morning/pre "superstar" Kutcheries at MA should draw more audiences and I agree that the crowds in the MA will provide the first signs of the "warning" of a "waning" interest. But as per my personal observations, I am afraid that this has already started to trickle in.

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 31 Dec 2013, 10:27

Nandhi....Thanks a lot! Your views are exactly as mine. But from what TMK himself has admitted in the recent Jaya TV "Marghazhi" telecast, it is not "radical change" but a "close look into the current STRUCTURE of rendering of CM" is what TMK is trying to explore. He feels that "any structure can be actually harming the contents", like a leaky roof slowly destroying the paintings inside. He is trying to render music "as it comes to him" and hence does not come with any "pre-set list or programme" for his recitals. No harm at all in his way of thinking as long as we all get to hear good, authentic CM. Krishna himself is not sure if the "rasikas" will accept his present way of "rendering" music. Our minds are all pre-conditioned and basically the human mind is resistant to change. Just like the movie goers will not readily accept Indian films without the song & dance sequences, however irrelevant they are to the story, as much they will not accept any "tragic" ending - they expect only happy endings and a group photograph withthe beaming newly weds in the centre! To the extent that in Mani Ratnam's hit "Thalapathi". at the ending it was originally the character played by Rajanikanth who dies, but in the Tamil version they changed it to Mohanlal's character dying. And naturally in the Malayalam version it was the other way round!

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 31 Dec 2013, 11:28

mohan7narayanan wrote:Carnatic Music is kept alive only by TamBrahms ...

Sir, I think you were referring only to Tamil Nadu, but outside Tamil Nadu, most of the artists do not speak Tamil, and they are keeping the art alive as well. Of course, the majority of them are brahmins, and I agree that the music needs to spread out of the confines of the brahmin community.

sshamkar · Post by **sshamkar** » 31 Dec 2013, 11:30

I think basically CM is deeply religious and there is a direct connection between Hindu religion and CM. The modern youngsters do not want to have this connection. They would like to hear a raga and not the kriti. but beauty of CM is with raga and kriti. People who are religious (many people are religious) do not want this separation and hence so much resistance. I think we need to give the space to this also i.e., only singing of a raga without a kriti or singing a song composed by singer himself not connected with any god or religious aspect. let us see how it goes. My personal feeling is that raga alapana (one sets the tone and bhava etc) is like a preparation for the worship of god with the kriti. Saint tygaraja, Sri muthuswamy dikshitar and Sri shyama Shastri are bhaktas first pursuing the path for salvation then composers. With out that level of Bhaki great compositions will not come out.

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 31 Dec 2013, 11:49

girish_a....you are right! Since a major part of these columns are about Chennai Sabhas and the "kutcheries" happening there, I was using the word TamBrahm. Surely in Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala - also to a great extent in Mumbai - non-Tamil speaking musicians/ audiences do patronize CM. As you have rightly said, the majority there are also Brahmins. The debate I have started is - How to pull in other communities into CN? I had just watched (and reviewed under a separate column in this website) a DVD on T Brinda - the entire Dhanammal family was non Brahmin and yet what a great contribution to CN? Brinda's Guru, Kanchipuram Naina Pillai, was yet another non-Brahmin.....but what a teacher? Why have the other communities moved away from CN? Just because of the Dravidian movement of "anti-Aryan" which automatically became "anti-Brahmin"? There should be more reasons, I feel.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 31 Dec 2013, 12:46

I am also concerned about the sparseness of the crowd for instrumental concerts. Like the day before the upper balcony of the academy was about 60 to 70% empty and all this despite the standard of music. Considering the crowd I saw at TNK or LGJ mama's concerts (when he was still playing) it's surprising to me as to just why this is the case (now that would belong in an entirely different thread, but still...)

Also in my experience regarding getting some other listeners (who have no idea of CM) to hear some high quality CM, one issue I see is that most of them don't have the attention span to sit through a song for more than 3-5 minutes (which is also precisely why film songs don't take up any more time). These listeners are also not exactly serious "rasikas" of other music as such -- they will be satisfied to hear some music for a few minutes to "excite their nerves" and then forget about it. The music that they prefer listening to is also the "use and throw" variety -- it goes viral for a few days and is forgotten after a few months. Even when they do listen to something of a high quality it's still constrained by attention span limits. These listeners also have no interest in alapanas or swaras or anything that demands improvisation (unless it makes a hell of noise and generates enough adrenaline to freak out). And then there's still the dogma that traditional Indian is somehow old fashioned and inferior to ... etc...etc...

But one valid complaint that does come out is this one -- "lyrics incomprehensible" (for non-tamil songs and also for older tamil songs). What does "Eti Janma mitiga" mean to most Tamil people?

And that other little issue of not being able to count anything more complicated than ''tkt-tkt-tkt-t,k-tk,-t,k - tk, tk,'' (which could probably even get statues dancing) or ''tktk-tktk-tktk-tktk''.

CM or any music system with solid, substantial content in my opinion demands a rasika who wants to find a life long partner in music -- when was the last time did you come across an "ex-rasika"

? Hence the first substantial step would be to introduce CM to kids right from childhood or even earlier. And it has to be introduced like a fairly serious hobby. This music is not the "use and throw" variety at all.

Again speaking of other communities and CM, don't forget to factor in the influence of films over the decades and then you'll know where the overwhelming majority of those listeners have gone.

If CM has to proceed forward in a globalized world, it will eventually start to embrace many more languages (and would have to do so in a way that doesn't suggest a stunt or a comedy act

). I am ready to wager that one day this very forum will have a running thread on the controversy generated by a future star singing an RTP with English lyrics (if the very mention is not controversial enough).

Finally, the problems to CM are not unique -- all music systems world wide that have the content to be labelled "classical" are suffering the same issues.Truth of the matter is, CM needs focused and dedicated effort from rasikas and musicians to keep passing on the flame. It is just not that type of music that you can simply upload on Youtube and it goes viral in a week.

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 31 Dec 2013, 13:02

i agree, sshamkar. I wonder if it will be at all possible for future musicians to learn ragas and alapana without kritis. It is the kritis (of course mostly most religious) which preserve these unique prayogas and sancharas for posterity. Like someone else said in a different thread, kritis are the infrastructure / firmament of CM. without such compositions, many ragas will be lost or neglected. for example, if Sri Thyagaraja had only taught alapana of Karaharapriya and Harikamboji to his disciples without the numerous kritis in those two scales, would they still be reigning near the top of the charts? while it is theoretically possible to accumulate a vast repertoire of high quality 'secular' kritis over decades and centuries to replace the religious impact, it is too far fetched to be achievable. So while raga alapana may be a display of the high quality raw material available to one, the kriti is the finished product which is easier to consume and relish. If one learns kritis to learn of ragas, it is too much to ask of them to not display that repertoire. May be it is possible for a few, but it will be a niche. Like all niches, it will have its audience but not threaten to take over. kritis shall be kings for the foreseeable future and ragas the kingdoms they rule. (hindu) religion as a theme in kritis is also here to stay.

sshamkar · Post by **sshamkar** » 31 Dec 2013, 14:47

I fully agree with pvs. some people want to convert CM to pop/rock music. let there be different streams in CM that is all what i wanted to say.

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 31 Dec 2013, 18:38

sshamkar...I would like to pick up the thread from you. You have said "Some people want to convert CM to pop/rock music".

Who are those "some"? The Audiences or Musicians themselves?

Now "pop" is the short form of "popular" and we won't mind CM going "pop" in that literary sense. It is the "rock" which worries me. What do you think of Sikkil Gurucharan, Veena Jayanthi Kumaresh etc performing to Anil Srinivasan's piano accompaniment (he is indeed a gifted pianist, a good friend - we have worked together in English theatre music) - no personalities question, just from the music angle of CM! Indian Classical Music (Carnatic as well as Hindusthani) has always "stringed" instruments for accompanying the lead vocalist/instrumentalist, since they can produce those 1/4th and 1/8th notes by deft and precise fingering - notes which are have been PRESCRIBED in the GRAMMAR of Indian Music.The Piano is versatile in producing HARMONY on which Western Music is founded. Do you see a clash of Music systems in such combinations?

Of course, the "rock" part is well taken care of in Cine-Karnatik music pieces!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jan 2014, 08:45

btw, just on this sub-context of krithis on religious themes and how important they are to CM, yes, they absolutely are today but couple of points to keep in mind regarding CM history just a few generations back. ( say, current day octogenarian's great grand father generation which is really not too far back)

- Don't forget padams and even javalis. Those who are in the above camp would not want to get too close to those lyrics, except may be when the lyrics are co-opted to a divine context. We all know what a great treasure house of raga content they are. ( not that krithis do not add to that content enormously, they of course do ).

- And more significantly, krithis ( religious or not ) were not the backbone of CM concert circuits during Trinity's time and a half a century later. They were all RTP concerts, after an obligatory krithi. At least, that is what we are told. ( though I do wonder, when I read the vaggeyakara charithra of SSP, about what the motivation/purpose behind all those compositions of those numerous vaggeyakaras of yore )

Anyway, I am stating the above so we have a well rounded historical context. Going forward, it is not at all clear to me that non-religious krithis or even krithiless compositions etc necessarily will work. At least today, there is a reasonably huge audience that is built on top of krithis in which they all find great meaning. One can even speculate with some confidence that it is these krithis that saved CM during the change of patronage that happened. We are all grateful for <lang>Brams for finding meaning in CM through krithis in a religious context and that contributed to its patronage through the sabha system. Not that CM would have gone away, the nadaswaram vidwans and sadir nattuvanars and dancers would have protected the art form, as they had probably done during times of lull in the past many centuries.

Not that I am pessimistic about the future of CM. The above just points out the dilemma that naturally results in the feedback system of patronage and the nature of the art form. If looked at in isolation, it will look like the chicken-and-egg style 'who came first' problem but in reality it is a complicated dance of adaptation on both sides occurring over a long period of time. May be, the future patronage will lean more towards the current day "royalty" of corporations/sponsors. If you believe that the nature of patronage affects the form and content of music ( which I do ), then it will be fascinating to see how the music adapts itself. We are probably seeing the early stages of that adaptation already.

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 01 Jan 2014, 09:33

vasanthakokilam......Firstly, wish you HAPPY MUSICAL NEW YEAR!

In your today's post post you have written "there is a reasonably huge audience that is built on top of krithis in which they all find great meaning" - more than that, many listeners are able to identify the raaga ONLY after hearing the first line of the krithi...the link between the two is much more than what we usually tend to assume!

mohan7narayanan · Post by **mohan7narayanan** » 01 Jan 2014, 14:07

SrinathK....Your observation "Am also concerned about the sparseness of the crowd for instrumental concerts. Like the day before the upper balcony of the academy was about 60 to 70% empty and all this despite the standard of music." This morning (at the New Year breakfast at MA) I mentioned this to Sri N Murali, President of the Academy, citing your name (Srinath). He also agreed but added that in the 3 other big Southern towns - Coimbatore/MaduraiTrichy - he learns that concerts of Instrumentalists still attract good crowds. But Murali went on to say is that he is concerned that over the past years he is witnessing LESS and LESS OF THE YOUNGER GENERATION. "That is a cause of worry for CM" he said.

SrinathK · Post by **SrinathK** » 01 Jan 2014, 15:50

My opinion is that unless the younger generation is properly initiated into CM by their parents and teachers right from childhood (or earlier), they are not going to come by themselves and will end up listening to what all other kids listen to (which these days happens to be predominantly rock, pop, blues, bollywood and the like). Today the listening options for us are far far more than what was available to the previous generations. Again the preference at our age is for things heavy in visceral excitement and the ability to short out your brain.

Art will pass on only in an environment that nurtures it. And with children, the first music that goes into your ears makes all the difference. So at the very least children have to be trained up to be rasikas of CM and in this encouragement by the family plays no small role. So the question is whether parents and teachers can do more in this matter. If I like CM today I owe it to my family for encouraging me to listen and learn as much as possible (that also resulted in my mum learning to identify over a hundred ragas despite not having learnt beyond geetham!)

It's also been proven that music tastes change as one grows older. With increasing emotional and mental development over time the brain seeks something more substantial than just head banging stuff and therefore gravitates to more profound musical experiences. This also has to be taken into account. However exposure to classical music from childhood is the best way and it should not be difficult now with all the music that is available out there. We must also look at how many watch Carnatic audio and video online now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... r-age.html
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/the- ... a-lifetime

There was a lot of bad music (worldwide) in previous centuries as well but over hundreds of years only the best will pass the test of time and this is the reason why there is something called "classical music". The other day I was reading about how LGJ in the 80s was very worried about the very low number of youngsters in the crowds -- so I am sure that CM will be able to weather the storms better than it ever did in today's information age.

gs · Post by gs » 01 Jan 2014, 20:05

This is a fascinating topic. As Vasanthakokilam says, one needs to understand historic perspective. Many of us probably know all these. But, I believe, discussing in their back drop will provide more clarity.

First a tit bit.

Carnatic Music or Karnatik Music?

I am absolutely okay with the present name. But the right name should be Karnatic Music in my opinion. Karnatakam means pazhamai, ancient. Karnataka Sangeetham means, Ancient Music. So like Krishna says Carnatic indeed sounds colonial and Karnatik is overkill. Karnatic sounds balanced! Anyway, it is totally besides the point, but I couldn't help myself. I will stick to 'Carnatic Music'.

Origin of South Indian Classical Music

Defining Characteristic of CM is gamakam. TNS once said to the effect Carnatic Music is indeed Tamil Music. During later Pandya rule, when Thevaram pann was sung with gamakam for the first time, flute was able to follow it while yazh was unable to follow. This gave rise to invention of Veena in its present form. (this means Saraswathi became Veena Pusthakatharani only in the past 8-9 centuries or so, but that’s for another day). This perspective is pretty reasonable since yazh was last mentioned in Periyapuranam (Circa 1250).

This development gave rise to initial pithamagas of CM circa 1550 – Muthuthandavar and Purandaradasa. (Give or take five decades)

The progression

Another two to three centuries passed before substantive development took place. It is not a coincidence major developments in the field of music world over have happened in the 18th century or late 17th century. Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Marimutha Pillai, Arunachala Kavi Rayar, Gopalakrishna Barathi, Thyagaraja, Muthuswamy Dikshithar, Shyama Shastri, … Sitar and tabla got introduced in the 18th century.

Late 19th Century to Early 20th Century

Two major happenings affected CM and changed the topography of Indian Classical arts. Social and economic compulsions made Zamindhars to reduce/abandon patronage to classical arts. This forced the migration of music from courts to sabhas and migration of musicians and dancers to cities. Second major happening was the upheaval against Devasis and branding them as prostitutes. This was spearheaded by Muthulakshmi Reddy and supported by people like Sir C.P.Ramaswamy Iyer, as a precursor to Devadasi Abolition Act. Prominent Devadasis such as Bangalore Nagarathnammal (the one who fought against male domination in Thiruvaiyaru and later on commissioned the shrine) vehemently opposed the move since they considered themselves sophisticated, independent and artistic. Isai Vellalar, the custodians of art, wanted the system abolished. These five decades up to 1930 created existential crisis in the community which was mandated to be the torch bearers of classical art forms.

It is during this phase Padam and Javali centric south Indian art forms became Trinity Centric. Locational progression was from temple to courts to sabhas. Bhakthi and Sringaram used to be integral part of South Indian culture (even temples bear testimony to this) and Sringaram became a taboo. I am not competent to say whether it is right or wrong, but to me it is a tragedy. "Civilised people learning music and dance" became the buzz word. It helped a lot for spreading the art thru sabhas and at the same time polarised it made it a Bram Art. Divided the integration between Music and Dance.

In the process, great art form that was enjoyed by the whole community even before 70-80 years became the monopoly of Brahmins. Got completely monopolised as late as 1975 or so. I am not writing about post 1930 phase and touted Ariyakkudi structure in concerts for obvious reasons

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Jan 2014, 23:21

As one of the proud sheeple, let me say that my simplistic (or would it be 'sheepistic'?) take on this discussion is like the refrain (dare I say 'pallavi'?) of this hindi movie song in which the hero (and the heroine) declares that he has been in love forever - "100 years ago I was in love with you, I am in love with you today, and will be in the future as well"…(sau sAl pehlE mujhE tumsE pyAr thA, Aj bhI hai, aur kal bhI rahEgA)…now substitute CM where it matters - "sau sAl pehlE CM flourished, it does today as well, and it will in the future too!"

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 03 Jan 2014, 20:34

historicity apart,viewed from outside' the situation of carnatic music look like this in the last 60 years.
the musicians: in those days there were only about a dozen or so musicians at a time who were top artists and who made a decent living out of full time music.All others were poor and looked down as thengai moodi- the innumerable cartoons give us an idea f their social status.very very few of the yester years stalwarts induced willingly their progeny in this profession if they had an alternative
now thanks to international spread . there are scores of them who are fairly well off financially as full time musicians.The index to their satisfaction is that they want their sons or daughters to take up this profession.
the patronage.:-In the olden days a music concert was a rare event.Marriage and other functions in Mirasdars houses or big temple festivals.true rasikas will travel miles together to attend those concerts and they will be talking about it for months together till the next occasion' with exaggeration every time to make it a myth.Now occasions are aplenty.I am not having chennai music season alone in my mind.It will be enough to see the engagement schedule of any artist to realise how busy they are.
the rasikas :-In the olden days concerts there were only a few knowledgeable rasikas sitting in front rows behind the mirasdar. most others were "sheeple" who will nod their head and give applause when the" periyavar" does it.It is beyond doubt that the average music knowledge has increased tremendously.
Now there are very good YOUNG musicians and YOUNG rasikas who are aware of the greatness of this art. hence the future of carnatic music seems to be unquestionably bright.
It looks as though a revolution is taking place in the last 60 years. The advent of cinema ( at its beginning stage ) and the A.I.R are the main causes of this revolution which today's electronic recording and communication media strive to propagate further.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jan 2014, 21:20

The silent contribution made by bhAgavata tradition may not be visible but they were the stone pillars on whose dedication and nAda yoga, today's CM thrives but never given credit. Who nurtured tyAgarAja kRtis? Who nurtured Dasara Nama? Who nurtured kRtis of Sadasiva Brahmendra and other great Bhagavata Siromanis? Remember bhajana sampradAya paddhati? Though he may not belong to even past century, Purandara Dasa is considered as Pitamaha of CM. His whole tradition has vanished - musicians are trying to recreate the rAgas in which his kRtis were sung. And what about Annamacharya?
Suffice it to say that sadir parampara with its lewd and suggestive (mostly telugu) lyrics seems to have thrived in the courts and houses of kings, vassels and their ilk. Present CM purists would go whole hog for such lyrics without understanding that these were the dross of CM.
Among the Thengai Moodi parampara, there were many bhAgavathas who could not eke out their living and turned to marriage halls etc.
Present Kutcheri paddhati is considered the 'perfection' and rasikas have been groomed to believe so. That has made the musicians slaves to it and what a vicious circle?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 03 Jan 2014, 21:23

Well said vgovindan.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Jan 2014, 22:34

Thanks Ponbhairavi for level-setting the recent past. Very informative indeed.

Who nurtured tyAgarAja kRtis?

Please elaborate on this Govindan. We are told that yesteryear concerts were RTP centric. That cries for a narrative as to where the compositions of the trinities and other composers ( including GKB ) were sung, sustained and propagated. If you read the vaggeyakara charitha of Muthuswamy Dikshithar and his family, it almost feels like they were composing those songs for themselves and their family to sing ( for their patrons and for themselves ). The fact that they had disciples who may have propagated it seemed to be a side effect.

So the narrative may be different for Thyagaraja and MD, for example.

I would like to learn as historically accurate as possible an account of this that covers the trinity and GKB. I am including GKB because there is a case of his songs finding sustenance through live theater(?)

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 03 Jan 2014, 22:59

In the case of GKB, Sri.S.Rajam in discussions with me told me that GKB actively canvassed for his compositions to be more popular. Smt.Kamala MOORTHY'S HARIKATHA ON GKB describes in GREAT HISTORICAL DETAIL his attempts in this area as well as the FRENCH official who found out about people up all night listening to GBK'S NANDANAR Charitram & sleeping at work. Actually he not only himself attended it himself he was responsible for PUBLISHING THE WORK!...WHAT AN INSPIRING STORY....I am still racking my non-existent brain HOW to bring the STATUS OF GKB CLOSE ENOUGH TO THAT OF THE TRINITY bec. in my opinion thats where he belongs. VKV

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 03 Jan 2014, 23:38

vk,
I am not a historian and therefore, may not be able to substantiate my arguments with facts and figures. I will simply name two bhAgavatas - Pudukkottai Gopalakrishna Bhagavatar whom I had the privilege of knowing personally and having attended his bhajans - and Swami Haridas Giri. They belong to an unbroken tradition of bhAgavatas going even before tyAgarAja and Purandara Dasa. Who knows what gems will be found if we really dig deep into the traditions of yore - right from Narada and all the Suta parampara - the traditional story tellers. Modern day BrahmaSri TS Balakrishna Sastrigal is no less a bhAgavata.

I consider MD to be more of a devout vAggEyakkAra than bhAgavata. His approach is 'music for its own sake'. His bhakti is sAtvIka bhakti. Whereas for bhAgavatas - of course including tyAgarAja - it is anurAga or prEma bhakti - music as a vehicle to pour out their love and love-lorn-ness. Of course, music is its own goal - a means and end - nAda yoga.

Pardon me for saying so - Music is the medium of communication par excellence - it is not about its grammar. May be I am colour blind. But then grammar cannot be given a go-bye - it cannot become a licence.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 08 Jan 2014, 16:10

The Art of Gamaka - Kannada Story Tellers - sAhitya - bhAva - rAga equation -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi_ZmChoRrE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GLHeCAh4uk