What goes around, comes around

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 21 Oct 2014, 08:15

Tambura players have been replaced by electronic tamburas.

The situation of tambura artists is so dire that there is an attempt to create a tambura artists' welfare fund; vide http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23950

Recently, I have observed a newer trend in concerts: musicians are using their smartphones or tablets to play the drone from an app.

This could lead to the demise of the electronic tambura.

Soon Radel and others would have to get out of the business of making electronic tamburas.

Shouldn't we start a welfare fund for them?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Oct 2014, 08:41

Come, come, Harimau. Not long from now, robots are really going to be well-versed in CM. Remember how taped music replaced live concerts in wedding receptions for some time in not so serious listeners' families? The musicians didn't go out with begging bowls then. Even when robots really get to sing refined music, do the musicians have to fear economic doom? I think not

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 21 Oct 2014, 09:52

Harimau,
The way electronics has moved on from custom built PCBs to software driven adaptive chips that do diversified functions just with different IOs, the writing is on the wall for Radel etc. In fact I spotted Bluetooth Bose speakers in the Akkarai Parivadini concert and the TMK Detroit pic.
I assure you an iTanpura app with Bose Bluetooth is excellent.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 21 Oct 2014, 13:19

Next: the electronic violinist.

It would listen and play selected parts of phrases after the vocalist. Probably feasible. Feasible today; smart-phone app tomorrow!

It is getting quite alarming to see the growing pool of electronics, in the midst of which the main artists sit. The other artists must feel quite deprived, as they do not have any.

I say... Back to basics! Mic the tambura! Leave all the electronics at home

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 21 Oct 2014, 13:50

harimau

Sri Karthik Narayanan, a very eminent Electronics Engineer and Entrepreneur, the promoter and co owner of Radel. Similarly other Electronic Sruti instruments manufacturers. They are eminently capable of for making their business plans for continuity or discontinuity. Let us not think insultingly that they need 'welfare' fund assistance, please.

munirao2001

sanjaysubfan · Post by **sanjaysubfan** » 21 Oct 2014, 17:35

Sanjay Sir has been singing with just a manual tambura and no electronics for years now. You can see that in almost all the videos that he has uploaded on his youtube channel. Not sure what he does outside Chennai, but his Trivandrum videos seem to have just a tambura.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 21 Oct 2014, 19:08

Sanjay is perhaps the only thorough professional CM singer today. He starts the concerts, I have never seen him quarrel about mike, respects the audience without playing to the gallery, has a good sense of time management, treats the organisers with respect without making any demands (of course his remuneration will be there), now offers his recordings from $0 upwards(buyer to decide what to pay), draws on a number of composers, participates in events that commemorate the greats of yesteryears, communicates on his own evolution, has a good sense of humour and his replies are looked forward to, and the positives stack up.
Re. Radel, Harimau made his remark in lighter vein, not that he wishes Radel makers look up for charity.

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 21 Oct 2014, 19:33

In Bangalore Gayana samaja concert on Oct 19,2014,Sanjay had a Radel box.I know for sure Sri Vijaya always uses tambura in Bangalore.In Fort High School concerts at Bangalore,Tambura is still used.There is no need to mock at the fund created.In fact this is to reward some desrving senior tambura artists who have rendered service over the years.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 21 Oct 2014, 19:53

kvchellappa wrote:
Sanjay ......... respects the audience without playing to the gallery

What do you call "tup tup tup" and "dugu dugu dugu"?

kvchellappa wrote:
participates in events that commemorate the greats of yesteryears

Except that Thyagaraja doesn't seem to merit his presence at the annual Aradhana at Tiruvayyaru.

kvchellappa wrote:
Re. Radel, Harimau made his remark in lighter vein, not that he wishes Radel makers look up for charity.

Most Indians seem to be humor-impaired. Thanks for not being among them! :namaste:

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 21 Oct 2014, 20:07

arasi wrote:Come, come, Harimau. Even when robots really get to sing refined music, do the musicians have to fear economic doom? I think not

Electronic tamburas are not musicians so the comparison doesn't apply.

But everyone carries a phone; some of us who don't lose a cell phone every three months do invest in smartphones capable of supporting e-Tanpura or some such application. Tablets have the additional advantage that you can have the lyrics stored on them so that the musician doesn't have to lug around 4-5 books or notebooks with him.

K J Yesudas uses a laptop for referring to lyrics. Malladi Brothers carry an iPad as do quite a few musicians.

I am wondering if we will see a Milli Vanilli (somebody lip-synching to recorded music) in the Carnatic music world in the future.

)

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 21 Oct 2014, 20:39

harimau wrote:
What do you call "tup tup tup" and "dugu dugu dugu"?

That is for the serious connoisseurs. Unfortunately the riffraff don't get it!

@kvchellappa: More than professional, as he declines wedding concerts which is a big sacrifice for a professional.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Oct 2014, 21:17

hnbhagavan,
Sripada Rao wasn't available that day, and no other tambura artiste? You will also see in youtube clips where Sanjay has no tambura because someone to play it was not available?

Harimau,
I meant it in the sense robots (a full bench of them for that) won't rob human musicians of their income. Remember? When IBM started its business in India, many feared that humans will be out of work when the 'machines' took over?

If only we change your expression to 'tip tip and dig dig'! That's what the music is like: tip your hat and dig that music

Sureshvv,
Some years ago, when I came to know how much star musicians and certain instrumentalists charge for a kalyANa kachEri, I nearly fainted! They can live very well on a few all year and even consider regular concerts as a mere hobby!

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 21 Oct 2014, 23:06

I really wonder how long it will be before the Rasikas, and better still, reviewers are replaced by robots!

I was pleasantly surprised that Siri could not only identify the song that was playing last evening at home, but the ragam (Mohanam) and singer (Maharajapuram Santhanam) as well; all I had to do was point the iPhone in the direction of the boom box and ask her what was playing. Who knows, the next iOS version or Shazam update could even finally succeed where many human experts have failed: finally teach me to tell poorvikalyani from Pantuvarali....although I doubt it can add a helpful afterthought in Tamil like one mama sitting by did many years ago: "pantuvarali Konjam azhara maadiri irukkum"

How long before we say 'move over Rajeshnat, here is something that can enlighten us on the duration of Alapana, tanam, neraval, tani and organiser mama's speech accurately to the microsecond?'

)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Oct 2014, 23:10

sridhar_ranga wrote: I was pleasantly surprised that Siri could not only identify the song that was playing last evening at home, but the ragam (Mohanam) and singer (Maharajapuram Santhanam) as well; all I had to do was point the iPhone in the direction of the boom box and ask her what was playing. Who knows, the next iOS version or Shazam update could even finally succeed where many human experts have failed: finally teach me to tell poorvikalysai from Pantuvarali.

Sridhar - 'Siri, nI yedu sonnAlum sari' yA?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Oct 2014, 23:52

"siri paNNum thappai pArththu siri"

With Shazam integration Siri has gotten to be a big CM rasika which is no laughing matter but some of her responses are indeed quite 'siri'ppu inducing. It is common for a couple to have integrated contacts which results in both their names tagged as 'Spouse'. You tell Siri 'Text Husband' and she will come back with 'Which husband'

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 22 Oct 2014, 01:20

So, polygamy isn't gender-biased anymore

Guys, bear with me, but I gather from your posts that this siri is not human? Who is this whatever it is?? :-\

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2014, 02:43

I just asked. Quite evasive, don't you think?

Trying again, Siri went "Sorry. I have been advised not to discuss my existential status" and finally a bit ticked off at my insistence, brusquely "That is a rather personal question"

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 22 Oct 2014, 02:57

Arasi, Siri is a beautiful woman who lives in your iphone and answers your questions. And if you know how to ask her questions, you can have quite a conversation with her. But she can stonewall too..

..

I didn't know she knew CM.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2014, 03:14

I didn't know she knew CM.

She is starting with Maharajapuram Santhanam. A good beginning!

Once Shazam identifies the album, Siri reads the album data. Not that different from beginners who can tell the raga from song starting lines. 'Brocheva va, I know, I know, that is Kamas'. Quite humorous at their expense if it happens to be Sri Ranjani !

Here is SIRI the charmer

And finally deferring to Google just like we would

kedharam · Post by **kedharam** » 22 Oct 2014, 06:48

"That is for the serious connoisseurs. Unfortunately the riffraff don't get it!"

moi loving it:)

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 22 Oct 2014, 06:52

I want to know seriously whether in 'tup, tup, tup, dugu, dugu, dugu' or in 'le, le', CM is derailed. If the swaras can be brought in any letter or akara, why cannot be done in those sounds?

tiruppugazh · Post by **tiruppugazh** » 22 Oct 2014, 07:11

K J Yesudas uses a laptop for referring to lyrics. Malladi Brothers carry an iPad as do quite a few musicians.

I hope KJY can use the laptop for correcting the continuous vibratto in his voice that makes us think he has Voice Parkinsons. As for the "Bore Adi" brothers, they need an iPad to refer to the finite set of Telegu songs they sing day in and day out????

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 22 Oct 2014, 09:53

Madam arasi,
Bangalore Gayana Samaja has tamburas in its store and there were tambura artists for RaGa sisters.Perhaps Sanjay opted for Radel.There are many Tambura artists available.
The real reason for not using tambura is not known.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 22 Oct 2014, 10:10

There was this hilarious situation in Suryaprakash concert at Indiranagar Sangeetha Sabha. The young lady with the tambura was holding it with her left hand, and using her right hand to put tala and encourage the mridangam vidwan (probably her guru or father). So we did have a tambura prop but like in Padosan, the actual Sruti assistance for the musicians was coming from an electronic box in front.

OVER THE YEARS, what I have heard from musicians:
Electronic Sruti works as long as there is power, no unreliability or inefficiency.
They never practise with a real tambura so they feel at home with the electronic box.
They can change volume and pitch and Madhyama Sruti in a jiffy.
It is portable.
It faces them and so they get good Sruti guidance.
It is generally much louder than stringed tambura in the miked stage environment, it is even picked up by the mike system even without a separate mike for it (unlike tamburas).
They don't need another person (mostly an unknown local) to play the tambura.
If the organizer provides a tambura and a player at no risk or cost to the musician, they will be happy, BUT THAT IS NOT THE SOURCE OF THEIR SRUTI REFERENCE POINT.

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 22 Oct 2014, 13:34

Enthaveduko-SaraswathiManohari-Adi-Tyagarajar
Sonia & Aparna performing at the Composers Day at Old Dominion University on 17th May 2009....

All with electronic Sruthi...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMqpJbUQZQ#t=30

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 23 Oct 2014, 10:42

harimau

May be likes of myself, Sri hnbhagavan and other senior citizens, the Welfare Fund is taken earnestly, sincerely and seriously with empathy and truly felt in the 'general welfare' the humor is not welcome and appreciated. Smt.Radhika Narayanan, our Bengaluru forunite can convey the feelings on this to judge on the 'sense of humor'.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 23 Oct 2014, 16:39

Sir,
Humour, that has no malice, has a place everywhere.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 23 Oct 2014, 22:51

There may be no malice, surely there is ridicule.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Oct 2014, 00:14

venkatakailasam wrote:Enthaveduko-SaraswathiManohari-Adi-Tyagarajar
Sonia & Aparna performing at the Composers Day at Old Dominion University on 17th May 2009....
All with electronic Sruthi...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMqpJbUQZQ#t=30

Hmm.. Would their sruthi suddham be better with real tambura

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 24 Oct 2014, 06:57

Madam Arasi,harimavu,

Sri K V Chellappa asked for explanation of TUP,TUP,......and THUG,THUG..........Harimavu made these observations.I request you to explain this.

This is not there as per Tyagaraja.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 24 Oct 2014, 17:15

Harimavu? Hmmmm....I guess all there's left now is for us to knead?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Oct 2014, 21:04

Ravi

Bhagvan,
I know as much as you do about this. You are of course familiar with the 'Uy's and such syllables the great MMI used and was pointed a finger at by those who could not appreciate his music because of them. It is all a matter of one's own perspective. We rasikAs do have our preferences and prejudices...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Oct 2014, 08:51

Or Harimau is invoking a hitherto unknown tala called Hridayapriya whose characteristic pattern is TUP,TUP,..THUG,THUG..

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Oct 2014, 08:58

Hridayapriya, I like that! For a rAgA, even better!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Oct 2014, 09:19

in other words: Valentine = hrdayapriya!!!! Awesome

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 25 Oct 2014, 11:00

arasi Madam,
It is not 'prejudice', it is about the shastraic gayaka dosham of not having 'akaara'. MMI's intrinsic quality of music is established with the ideal of pandita-paamara ranjakatvam. But idolatry should not prevent wishing the absence of this dosham in his delivery. It is also applicable to many other Great Maestros and Maestros. This tolerance of both pandita, in public and paamara has greatly affected the delivery aspect in Carnatic Music. This deficiency has prevented appreciation by both the pandita and paamara of other genre of music, Hindustani music in particular. It is ironic in Carnatic Music that every vidwan talks about the need for akaara and its saadhakam as the ideal for perfection in delivery but themselves do not take care and are sincere about this very important aspect of our Carnatic Music. There is never any debate on the Intent and Content in Carnatic Music, but only on the delivery. When women Visushees and Maestros can successfully adhere to this vital aspect, Why the tolerance for a male Vidwan and Maestros? If all the stakeholders of Carnatic Music take this aberration very seriously and do not tolerate, we will see the change and change for the better. When the Carnatic Music is on the threshold of reaching Global appreciation, this serious defect needs immediate corrective action.

munirao2001

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Oct 2014, 01:13

( We have moved away from the topic ( 'will smart phone make electronic sruthi boxes obsolete' ) but that always happens and in this case the OP shares the responsibility for it

As always we will split it if there is a need )

Sri. Munirao, the context here is a member who does not like a particular musician's music takes an opportunity to put down his music by bringing up this issue of 'tup,tup,..thug,thug'. If you read the context, it is also in response to some unbridled enthusiasm for the same musician by another member. So, this is at best a straw man brought in for that specific purpose of adding some acid to that alkaline. Fine. That is the 'prejudice' part ( pre-judging or in permanent judgement). While we all understand that given that member's well known opinion here, I do not think we should raise it to a level of shastraic gayaka dosham etc. That is in a different league. I do not think anyone is saying that Akaaram is not being practiced by this musician. Of course he is, in abundant quantity. Also, it is not true that those who like an occasional non-AkAra prayogas somehow do not understand how great AkarA is. I just want to set the context right.

In general, back to your point, just like you say one should not just accept anything and everything by our past maestros (which I agree though it is not as clear cut in any art form), we should also equally apply it to our ancestors who may ( or may not ) have said something about this and characterize it as Dosham etc. Think about prejudices that existed ( and still continue to exist ) in every generation in the past and especially in the past where this panditha-worship was much higher than now and any reasonable disagreements are put down by invoking God and Divine things (who can survive arguing with that!). For all we know, this 100% AkAra suddham might have been (a perfectly understandable) aesthetic preference by some influential person among our ancestors and over time this kind of thing got codified and any breach of it is put down as 'unclean'.

I understand the risk of taking such a position on my part since anything I do not like about the past can be scorned and set aside by using such an argument. But it looks to me that in this context all we can say is whether we personally consider an occasional use of non-AkAra passages in alapana as musically aesthetic or not.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 26 Oct 2014, 12:52

vasanthakokilam wrote: Sri. Munirao, the context here is a member who does not like a particular musician's music takes an opportunity to put down his music by bringing up this issue of 'tup,tup,..thug,thug'. If you read the context, it is also in response to some unbridled enthusiasm for the same musician by another member

Do not want to hijack this thread but the title makes it most appropriate for discussion. Rasikas is certainly a crucible to study pathological behaviors so let me cite a couple:

1. When a rasika A praises a particular performance or attribute of an artiste with "unbridled enthusiasm", rasika B has to come in and point out some other shortcoming not being discussed that is totally out of context.

2. When A praises a particular artiste, B has to come up with another artiste and point out the relative shortcomings of each artiste.

May be some creative rasika can come up with names for these pathological behaviors so we can call it out by name when it happens?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 27 Oct 2014, 04:56

"snitch"

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Oct 2014, 06:11

I think it exists in various degrees in a lot of people. It is all the more so if one does not care for the musician or the music being praised. We have been seeing that pattern with TMK in the past couple of years even for notional praise. More apropos example is the negative reaction to the unbridled enthusiasm exhibited by TNS fans a while back.

A more intense form of it is anti-fanboism which can morph into 'trolling'.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 27 Oct 2014, 06:46

Suresh VV raises a key aspect of rasika decorum.

When you report after a concert you immensely enjoyed, with your generous praise for the artiste, it's none of my business really to either put down the artiste or imply that you don't have taste. I think my behaviour is a kind of allergic conjunctivitis.

Then there are some self proclaimed fanboys of a certain musician who bring up their favourites in and out of context. Sometimes as a corollary to their conjunctivitis. That disease is a case of involuntary belching.

Then of course there are those who start a Tu Tu Mein Mein on tup tup thug thug etc. That is a case of cantankerousness.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Oct 2014, 08:21

And then there are those that put mimosa pudica to shame!

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 27 Oct 2014, 08:51

Dear harimavu Sir,

Inspite of TUP,TUP,thug,thug,sanjay's music attracts me like a magnet.He also has some thing new to offer.All of us have our preferences,likes and dislikes.
In case i do not like a person's music,all that u can do is to stay away.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 27 Oct 2014, 11:52

vasanthakokilam Sir,
If given the permission,as I also prefer not to enter in to another topic in any other thread of a topic under discussion, I would like to post the reply to your comment on 'A-kara'-its role and the benefit in delivery of CM.

munirao2001

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Oct 2014, 00:36

Sri Munirao, please do so here and if that becomes a serious part of the conversation we can split it off into its own thread. Thx

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Oct 2014, 01:15

Kokilam,
Your word 'anti-fanboism' is amusing. Reminds me of the french word frambois and how it fits

Ravi,
As for mimosa pudica-s, they are not to be envied

Terms and expressions apart, moderation helps--especially while dishing out criticism. Being true to one's impressions is one thing. Speaking ill of an artiste's gifts or the lack of them without restraint is not necessary.

To speak our minds doesn't mean raving and ranting, as if they are worthy ways of sharing our dissatisfaction with the concerts we listen to.

Are we in a flux now? We CM enthusiasts are able to communicate more, discuss more instantly, and that certainly has changed things from the days of printed reviews.
CM we know is well and alive now. We also know we have to grow with the changing times. But how much?

While we furiously discuss about purity of rAgAs and prayOgAs, the system is changing right in front of us in other aspects--the setting CM has experienced all these years, for instance.

Ten years ago, televised, tv land influenced CM contests would have been unthinkable. Now, they are not only accepted, but are eagerly watched by many CM fans. Why? If the music still pleases, the sociological changes are accepted, I suppose.

Soon, the generation gap we luckily don't feel in a few of the old ways (CM still is a biggie in that category) will be very much a fact of changing times--even if the music stays unchanged (the serving of it is already changing), television playing a major part. At least, it seems so to me. Good and bad in that: we still have CM alive and ticking, but do see it changing its personality!

Yes, seems as if we are in a flux...

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 28 Oct 2014, 11:13

Vasanthakokilam Sir,

The 'A'kara is not a fancy or only of historical value, in prescription and practice. When the Indian Classical Music evolved over centuries, with its origin based on the Saama Gaana-five notes, the idea and ideal of Pranava Naada-primordial sound and its concise and representative form of OMkara came into existence even in Classical Music taken from Gaana of Vedic recitation(Ghanapadi) as 'Pure' naada appealing to the pure consciousness. What is purity? Purity is moments of 'Ah', moments of self abnegation, a silence of thoughtlessness. In self abnegation moment(s), the state of cognitive mind is in animated suspension, struck by the enormity of beauty. On awakening, realization of the immense power of naada, pure and divine, full of energy. The naada permeating the states of mind,engulfing, mindfulness of the pleasure in memory, results in bliss. Such moments in deep memory, creates urge for the recall pleasure. This pure naada in the states of mind acts as the self controller. Control on the values of external influences to internal influences and internal influences to pure being and pure conscious. In pure conscious state the ideal of highest evolved intelligence gets established. This intellectualization,Chitta, maximizes the creativity, both original and recreative.
Pranava Naada,OMkara, consists of A,U,M. A-U-M are considered the ideal for both the practice and externalization of the pranava naada (delivery). To achieve the power and tonal volume, the pressure points for power are Naabhi-Hrith-Kanta. A-U-M are the ideal for harnessing the power in Nabhi-Hrith-Kanta. For the specific delivery manner, 'naasa' is used, minimally. Higher usage affects the quality in delivery and is declared as 'Gayaka Dosha'.

Hindusthani system only permits akaara and all those practitioners who deviate are taken for task by both the Pandita (Gurus) and discerning rasika. Why the aalaap and taans and bol taans receive higher appreciation in their delivery? even by the rasikas of other genre of music? It is because of 'purity' of naada represented by 'A'kara. Vocal chords get higher strength in 'A'kara sadhana. With akaara perfection, the 'nudikaara' is in total control making both the saahithya bhaavam and raaga bhaavam expressions, at their best with clarity of form and structure. For e.g. consider the controlled intensity of powerful naada in MSSAmma voice and rendition, the power of raaga bhaavam in DKP Amma, the flexibility and mellifluousness in MLV, Srirangam Gopalaratnam,R.Vedavalli, all Great Maestros. The power in the rendition of Radha & Jayalakshmi is also due to strict adherence to Akaara. The power in Ariyakudi and Musiri is due to akaara saadhana and practice. ARI overcame the limitations of his quivering voice to great extent by the akaara saadhana and practice. Listen to the Great Maestros/Maestros who strictly adhered to this ideal. Quality in music delivery is higher and the aesthetics is truly enhanced and enjoyable.

This can be expressed best not in the words but in Lec-Demonstration.

Let not the idolatry and myth continue to affect the ever growing and increasing the reach of Carnatic Music. As rasikas demand and support the artists who strictly adhere to the 'A'kara and judiciously and artfully use the 'U' and 'M' karas of "AUM", the pranavakara and pranava naada.

munirao2001

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 28 Oct 2014, 22:44

vasanthakokilam wrote: More apropos example is the negative reaction to the unbridled enthusiasm exhibited by TNS fans a while back.

A more intense form of it is anti-fanboism which can morph into 'trolling'.

I recall it as an instance of ganging up on a well meaning rasika and hounding her out of the forum! Don't think it gets more intense.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Oct 2014, 04:08

Suresh, yes indeed. And it needed some cleaning up the aftermath offline.