ragas and compositions

sung · Post by **sung** » 19 Feb 2015, 20:43

I have been doing the following experiment recently.

I take a particular composition in a particular raga. Then, I interchange the swaras one at a time as follows and play it on the computer software Gaayaka and practice it: interchange between suddha ri and chatusruti ri; between sAdArana ga and antara ga; between suddha da and chatusruti da; and between kaisiki ni and kAkali ni. Then, I consider two interchanges and so on. (I realize there are other possible changes that could be made. But, for now I have been sticking to the above changes.)

This has allowed me to appreciate the relative positions of the various swaras in the original raga of the given composition more than before. It has also raised a question in my mind, which I like to ask the experts here.

Are there any specific factors that make a composer prefer a particular raga for a given composition over all other possibilities or is it just a random selection of a given raga? I guess there are reasons as to why a particular raga is chosen over others, because during the above experiment some ragas don't feel suitable to the given composition. If so, what are these factors?

Just fyi. I have not brought into the experiment yet the role of gamakam. It is just the plain swaras that I have been playing with.

Thank you in advance for your responses.

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 20 Feb 2015, 09:34

Are there any specific factors for selection of a particular Raga for a given composition? Assuming that the question is on composing for given lyrics, my Guru has said that the musician has several triggers for an original attempt:

Poetry is nothing but a subtly articulated expression of thoughts/experiences/message. Searching for a "Sur" for the poetry is a journey from one creative mind to another creative mind.

1) Look for the Laya first (phonetics) and how the words flow. What seems to be the Taal?
2) What is the mood the lyrics want to convey? What is the inspiration for the poetry?
3) Get a fix on the Chandham (try reading or rereading loudly the verse many times)
4) Are there any patterns that emerge from the memory layers through the inner mind?
5) Now to the magic of art: putting 'shabdh" in to "sur" - let one word or one or two notes trigger a flight of imagination - let the heart and not the brain do it. The musical deliverance is usually through a process of elimination - but this is so rapid that it seems to come across as second nature. Practice makes perfection.
6) settle on the correct opening - the Jeevan of the poetry must shine through in the opening notes.
7) Look for action - reaction words for showcasing.
The melody thus derived takes care of the Raga aspect. So, it is really "fit for purpose."

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 20 Feb 2015, 11:27

shankarji

May be it is tactless to ask. But can you say who your Guru is as the 7 reasons are wonderfully reasoned out. The guru should take the credit too and of course you as as sishya for taking the time to educate another rasika.

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 20 Feb 2015, 17:29

Yes, my Guru is Pandit G.S. Chandra. He came in the Pandit Omkarnath Thakur lineage. He had worked as an arranger for Hindi film music director Madan Mohan.

What little that I may know was taught by my Guru.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 20 Feb 2015, 17:51

In Karnataka Music, vaggeyakara gets inspiration of either the raaga bhaava or the saahithya bhaava with related to an episode or a situation. The inspiration results in urge to create. In creativity the imagination engulfs the mind. The Budhi-sense of mind analytic and discursive engages the resources of lakshya and lakshana knowledge. The emotion or aesthetic appealing finds way for expression. Expression can take the form of saahithya or sangita first. If sahithya comes up first, the process very correctly and beautifully described by Sri Shankar Vaidyanathan happens. If sangita comes up first, the ideation and imagination for the appropriate sahithya is created. With both sangita and sahithya ideas and imagination leads to definite com-positional stage, kaalapramana inherently present will result in the choice of the tala. It is also possible for a creative situation in response to a request or command, the imagination happening as a parallel track.

munirao2001

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 20 Feb 2015, 18:20

shankar vaidyanathan:
Excellent post! Thanks!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Feb 2015, 19:12

Indeed! Thanks...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Feb 2015, 06:14

Good guidelines, Shankar.

Step 1 is quite significant. As an experiment, try singing 'parAtparA paramEshwara' by substituting different swaras but without changing that laya structure. People will still say it reminds them of that song. I think it is the laya that carries a significant portion of the identity of the song.

The fascinating thing is how a line of lyrics gets transformed into such a laya pattern and eventually to the melody. Your steps provide a framework to think about it.

For example, say the line that is presented to us is 'Dil pukare aare aare aare, abhee na ja mere sathee'
We know the song now, but imagine when it was first conceived. What prompted the tune smith to conceive it as 'dil pukAAAAAre' as opposed to something like 'dil pukarEEEEEEE'. Was their some aesthetic principle of balance at play? Whatever that may have been at play, as Shankar mentions above, there was probably a lot of alternatives quickly considered and discarded using aesthetics as the filter but done so quickly it looks like the tunesmith came up with just the right one almost immediately.

Assuming this is indeed the process, this actually gives hope to those of us who do not have that kind of skill. It is OK to take our time and consider the various alternatives at our own pace. The filter we use to discard the ones that does not fit is something we still need to have and people differ in that aspect.

May be we can try something fun. Let us come up with a line of song/lyrics/poetry. Let each of us go through these steps and see what we come up with.

What song lyrics we can use? Why not try something along the lines of the rasikas.org 10th anniversary poem Arasi composed

Ten years...Tended with care..Fun years are those

(wrapping around to complete the sentence to form the pallavi). As individuals wish, they can translate that to their language of choice and think about what laya and melody can be applied with the right bhava for the lyrics. If someone wants to tune it in English, that will be fun too.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 22 Feb 2015, 20:08

A valuable discussion. I see myself in many of the points by Shankar and Munirao and it is interesting how a tunesmith's brain works with preset ragam or open ended selection of ragam.

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 23 Feb 2015, 00:33

VK,

Going in with Anadhabhairavi. It came in the shower this morning after I had a good short haircut! Losing hair helps to lighten the head and there is certainly a link to Gangasnanam

Inspiration: Poomel Valarum Annaiye (TNS - what a genius!) - Mazhavai Chidambara Bharathi & Raman Ezhundarulinan (KVN and Allappey Venkatesan - ARI tradition) - Arunachala Kavi.

I was also working with an alternative version inspired by Kathanakuthukalam: Raghuvamsa Sudha (MSS) and (Mandolin Shrinivas); didn't pursue.

I will share with you'all if a brand new original version, not inspired by previous body of works, is "given" to me. For that to happen, I have to unlearn what I have heard over the years - which is very hard as I am heavily influenced by Dhwani (Sound) - sometimes the Raga or Melody stays with me for days, and, I couldn't get it out of my mind at all! Obviously, I would have done well if I had lived 100+ years ago as I could have easily sat through Eka Raga explorations for any number of hours! But no Rasikas.org forum!!

Took creative liberty to let Arasi Madam's beautiful English poem and its central thought to kindle my Tamil and channel the flow. I work better with Tamil (mother tongue.)

Two Pallavis in Anadhabhairavi - as I think my words "sit" well with this Raga. These are dummy placeholder words for now for the lyricist to polish.
(sing as in either of the above two Anandhabhairavi references.)

Inspiration #2 for the words: சத்சங்கம் (Satsang) - coming together in order to support each other's spiritual quest.

Pallavi 1:

ரஸிகாஸ் நம்மை சேர்த்தது - பத்து வருடங்களாக
ரஸிகாஸ் நம்மை சேர்த்தது

Rasikas Nammai Serthadhu - Pathu Varudangalaga
Rasikas Nammai Serthadhu

Pallavi 2:

பத்து வயது ஆனது - ரஸிகாஸ் சத்சங்கத்திற்கு
பத்து வயது ஆனது

Pathu Vayadhu Aanadhu - Raskikas Sathsanghathirku
Pathu Vayadhu Aanadhu

In the Anupallavi bridge, I have thoughts around invoking and linking up the names of all of the creators, pioneers, elders, and, active participants, who were the path breakers...can do it later...if this melody stays with me.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Feb 2015, 05:39

Keep going Sankar. It is looking good. When I read the last paragraph, my first thought was MD style madhyama kala section.

Briefly I contemplated on the first step in your list, namely Laya. What kind of laya feels right for the line. Interestingly, different ragas fit in depending which vowel I extend for a karvai. Like if I imagine 'ka' of rasikas extended really long, then thodi Ga fits

But a non-karvai sequence for 'nam mai Serththu' maps in my mind to a possibility of P M D, D of Sahana. Quite fascinating.

It is going to be fun.

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 23 Feb 2015, 08:05

திரு சங்கர் அவர்களே
வெகு அருமையான வரிகள் எனக்கு மனதில் தோன்றியதை இங்கு பகிர்ந்து கொள்ளுகிறேன். சரி வருமா என்று தெரியவில்லை
ரசிகாஸ் நம்மை சேர்த்தது பத்து வருடங்களாக
ரசிகாஸ் நம்மை கவர்ந்தது
வாழ்த்துக்களுடன்
தஞ்சாவூரான்
23 02 2015

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Feb 2015, 08:47

Guys,
You all have been an eye opener for me!

Thanks for hovering around the Rasikas.org's decade song.The first rAgA that came to me was hamsadhwani. The next would have been Ananda bhairavi for sure, Shankar, knowing my flow

VK,
You all inspire me to be a tune smith too (as you know, song and tune arrive together for me).

Thanjavooran,
Good lines, but I would start with rasikAs nammaik kavarndadu, and then rasikAs nammai SErthathu! and, pathu varuDamAga in madhyama kAlam, in Ananda bhairavi, of course! tripuTa??thaTTi (after a beat)??

sung · Post by **sung** » 23 Feb 2015, 17:39

Wow!!! I am speechless.

Very excited to follow the continuation of this great discussion. Thank you all so much, especially Shankar for starting it so wonderfully and VK for bringing about such a thoughtful transition.

sung · Post by **sung** » 23 Feb 2015, 17:47

I am sooooo happy that rasikas.org "attracted" my attention one day recently and that I "joined" this extremely elite group of experts to get my novice questions in music answered so well!!!

Long live rasikas.org!!!!!!

(This applies to the currently running 'degree of difficulty' thread as well.)

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 23 Feb 2015, 18:01

Arasi Madam,

Wonderful! Kindly see if you can work in the "Satsangh" in to the Pallavi too. May be you would like to explain why you reversed the "Serthadhu" and "Kavarndhadhu." I can see why but we need to explicitly say how the Kuril and Nedil sit at those places.

Thanjavooran, thank you! I am half Thanjavooran too!!

sung, thanks for creating this thread.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Feb 2015, 20:11

kavarndadu at first, and then sErthadu next, in the sequence sense.

Now, the song...

......................................................................................

Ananda Bhairavi tripuTa

Pallavi: rasikAs nammaik kavarndadE, rasikAs nammai sErthadE! (rasikAs)

CharaNam 1: pathu vayadAnadE, rasikAs satsangathiRkE
tathuvamum sangIthamum
athuppaDiyAyisai alasalgalum
pathu varuDathilE seidavai ethaniyO! (rasikAs)

CharaNam 2: pala vayadinarAm, bAlarum, mudiyavarum
balam sErpar pATTininimai kaNDE
valam kUDa varum naDanamum ilakkiyamum!
thalam iduvE, iNaindE kalaigaL aRivadaRkE (rasikAs)

*

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Feb 2015, 21:10

ஆன ந்த‌ பைரவி த்ரிபுட‌

ரசிகாஸ் நம்மைக் கவர்ந்ததே, ரசிகாஸ் நம்மை சேர்த்ததே! (ரசிகாஸ்)

பத்து வயதானதே, ரசிகாஸ் சத்சங்கத்திற்கே
தத்துவமும் சங்கீதமும்...
அத்துப்படியாயிசையலசல்களும்
பத்து வருடத்தில் செய்த‌வை எத்தனையோ? (ரசிகாஸ்)

பல வயதினராம் பாலகரும் முதியவரும்
பலம் சேர்ப்பர் பாட்டின் இனிமை கண்டே
வலம் கூட‌ வரும் நடனமும் இலக்கியமும்
தலம் இதுவே இணைந்தே கலைகளறிவதற்கே (ரசிகாஸ்)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Feb 2015, 21:19

Nick et al,
Here's the translation...

RasikAs attracted us, RasikAs united us!

Ten years old now, this place of good company--
Of philosophy and music...
Of regular analyzing of music--
How much of it have we done, these ten years!

Of assorted ages are we, youngsters and elders
We garner strength, seeking the sweetness of music
Along march dance and literature...
This is the place to unite and learn about the arts!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Feb 2015, 21:28

arasi wrote:ஆன ந்த‌ பைரவி த்ரிபுட‌

ரசிகாஸ் நம்மைக் கவர்ந்ததே, ரசிகாஸ் நம்மை சேர்த்ததே! (ரசிகாஸ்)

பத்து வயதானதே, ரசிகாஸ் சத்சங்கத்திற்கே
தத்துவமும் சங்கீதமும்...
அத்துப்படியாயிசையலசல்களும்
பத்து வருடத்தில் செய்த‌வை எத்தனையோ? (ரசிகாஸ்)

பல வயதினராம் பாலகரும் முதியவரும்
பலம் சேர்ப்பர் பாட்டின் இனிமை கண்டே
வலம் கூட‌ வரும் நடனமும் இலக்கியமும்
தலம் இதுவே இணைந்தே கலைகளறிவதற்கே (ரசிகாஸ்)

Dear Arasi,
MY RESPONSE: FANTASTIC POEM EVEN I CAN UNDERSTAND& APPRECIATE! TYPICAL ARASI ABLE TO COMMUNICATE AT ALL LEVELS! VKV

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 23 Feb 2015, 23:31

Arasi Madam,

Fantastic!

Couple of additional requests: may be we can tip our hat to Sangeetham.com as a precedent DF (listserv before that) to our forum as well as recognize srkris as a founder of this platform where we meet everyday.

VK,

I like the Sahana idea as well! Are you thinking of a heavy bamboo flute? May be it could become a Ragamalika if we choose allied Ragas. I am intrigued by your suggestion of tuning the English version. Shankarabaranam or similar scales that may work across WCM and CM?

Nick,

May we request your expertise with Laya/Taal to polish further?

We would need other experts here to step in now to write the notes as had been discussed above. We need one or two gifted voices to then sing it in a track which the instrumentalists among us could further embellish and build upon.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Feb 2015, 00:31

Ambitious, are we?

A virutham will take care of it ??

.......................

vAzhi, vAzhiyavE! sangItham.com vazhi vandu
sezhumai koNDE thulangum rasikAs.orgumE!

rAmakrishNan vandAr, rasikar kulam thazaithiDa
nAmum vandOmena mods--um karam thandAr...

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 24 Feb 2015, 05:38

Arasi
Excellent ! The lines 'Neatly flash' your ideas.
வாழ்க வளமுடன் !
Thanjavooran
24 02 2015

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Feb 2015, 08:14

Arasi, awesome on many fronts including the latest viruththam. So meaningful!

I was taken by the compound word 'அத்துப்படியாயிசையலசல்களும்' and wanted to see the 'short', 'long' pattern. I then remembered something I learned in High school( that was a previous yuga indeed ) about the tamil grammar way of analyzing such things and found a site to actually do it. Here it is, the parse tree for that word is 'தேமாநறும்பூ விளம் புளிமாங்கனி'. I am not even sure how many Tamil knowledgeable people even remember these things. May be Arasi and PB?

அத் துப் படி யா யிசை யல சல் களும்
நேர் நேர் நிரை நேர் நிரை நிரை நேர் நிரை
தேமாநறும்பூ விளம் புளிமாங்கனி

The relevance here is one of Laya and Shankar already made a reference to the kuril/neDil structure. I am thinking if the internal laya of the song that results from this has some relevance to this kind of lexical analysis.

(sorry for the non-transliterated/non-translated tamil words. I am not sure what I can do about that in this case )

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Feb 2015, 08:34

Kokilam,
There you are... Impressive

Grammar? What's that? What little I did learn at school, evaporated

As you know, I just sang the lines out, as with other compositions. Will try and send you the way it came.

Sridhar ranga, the two PB-s and Pasupathy (who has even published a book on writing poetry) are the ones to ask.

AND....where is our man CML? Please!

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 24 Feb 2015, 17:54

VK,

Yes, the Tamil grammar that you quoted is quite familiar. I have been teaching Tamil to young children in North America for > 8 years.

I usually split the word first like you did for Laya and then see if it "sits" in the meter for the flow.

sridhar_ranga · Post by **sridhar_ranga** » 24 Feb 2015, 20:24

Arasi, you left out a couple of more names.....weighty ones at that.

SankarK who gave us a whole series of venbaas in antaadi style, with his if-you-are-a-venpa-buff thread. In fact it helped me revive my interest in rules of asai, seer, taLai etc which I heard learnt long back in 9th standard.

Another short-time member MSM had a lot of mastery of various 'paa vagaigaL' and in fact it was he who first mentioned about Prof Pasupathy on Rasikas. That led me to the professor's online classes on Tamil prosody, leading eventually to his book kavithai-iyaRRik-kalakku which is my ready reference these days. Wonder why MSM no longer stops by Rasikas these days.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Feb 2015, 21:42

Yes, SankarK! I was keen on reading his work whenever he found time to write. I even was hoping to chance upon him in Chennai. I was surprised to learn that he is much younger than I imagined him to be!

Sridhar,
Memory plays tricks too. Please guide me to MSM's writings. Pasupathy, bless him, is a great asset to Rasikas.org. He's a seeker and a guide to some of the fine writings of past masters, himself a poet...

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 26 Feb 2015, 16:24

ரசிகாஸ் வலைதனை
நன்றாய் பயன் செய் மனமே (நம் )

உறுப்பினர் ஆகியோ உருவம் தெரியாமலோ
உள்ளீடு செய்திட்டால் உவகை கொள்ளும் மனமே தினமே (நம்)

சங்கீத நுணுக்கமா சரித்திர சான்றுகளா
இங்கித விற்பன்னர்கள் இதமுடன் பரிந்துரைப்பார்
எங்கெங்கே கச்சேரி எங்கெங்கே ஆராய்ச்சி
என்னென்ன லயக் கோர்வை என்னென்ன ஸ்வரக் கார்வை
எந்த நூற்றண்டானாலும் இங்கிப் பரிசுரைப்பார் இடித்துரைப்பார் (நம்)

மும்மூர்த்தி உலாவரும் முன் ஜென்ம ஞாபகங்களா
முடிந்த தளைப் பிறவியின் முடிவுறா மிச்சங்களா
எம் முன்னோர் இடைவிடா தவப் பயனின் எச்சங்களா
இங்கு நடம் புரியும் எம் இனிய விற்பன்னர்களே (நம்)

can be in Thodi. Sorry!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Feb 2015, 17:59

Great!

rAgam dEsh, tAlam Adi made me hum the whole song

muDinda thaLaip piRaviyin muDivuRA michangaLA...my!

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 26 Feb 2015, 18:11

Chalanata,

Weighty composition! The sahityam is excellent. I especially liked the

"முடிந்த தளைப் பிறவியின் முடிவுறா மிச்சங்களா"

Lovely word choices.

You may want to post a translation in English and fix the couple of Tamil typos.

Best wishes!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Feb 2015, 20:15

என்னென்ன லயக் கோர்வை, என்னென்ன ஸ்வரக் கார்வை!

another sparkling line

Agreed! 'thODiyil pADuginREn' ganamum kUDuthE! a la TNS.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 26 Feb 2015, 20:18

Arasi and Shankar, Thanks. It is not a song but only an attempt!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Feb 2015, 20:21

Well, if this is an attempt, can't wait till the songs come, vA rE vAh!

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 26 Feb 2015, 21:46

ARASI,VK,et al!! WOW!! WHAT AN IMAGINATION!

I think this should be the Rasikas.org theme song!! If Arasi and others would tune it,I AM ABLE , WILLING AND WANTING to be a part of the chorus--the logistics of how to coordinate amongst other singers to be worked out!!!!
How much I have missed in the last 4 to 6 weeks--MY LOSS!!

MORAL: First thing in the morning after one gets up and after the prayers,turn on the computer and check out the rsikas site FIRST before you even check your E-Mail!!!!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 27 Feb 2015, 10:36

To day only I went through the very good lyrics of Arasi Madam and Chalanata Sir.

Chalanata Sir, the lyrics-sahithya bhaavam resulting in my selection of raaga bhaavam of Darbar and set to rupaka talam. Darbar of rasikas, Darbar of Great Maestros, Maestros and Vidwans affectionately watching the discussions and debates, rasikas competing to post, rejoicing and happy with the 'performing' guidance of these artists members.

munirao2001

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 27 Feb 2015, 12:47

I have made some changes as follows:

ரசிகாஸ் வலைப் பதிவு தனை
நன்றாய் பயன் செய் மனமே (நம் )

உறுப்பினர் ஆகியோ உருவம் தெரியாமலோ
உள்ளீடு செய்திட்டால் உவகை கொள்ளும் மனமே தினமே (நம்)

சங்கீத நுட்பங்களா சரித்திர சான்றுகளா
இங்கிதைக் கற்றறிந்தோர் இதமுடன் எடுத்துரைப்பார்
எங்கெங்கே கச்சேரி எங்கெங்கே ஆராய்ச்சி
என்னென்ன லயக் கோர்வை என்னென்ன ஸ்வரக் கார்வை
அந்தந்த நுட்பங்களை அலசிப் பரிந்துரைப்பார் (நம்)

மும்மூர்த்தி உலாவரும் முன் ஜென்ம சொச்சங்களா
முடிந்த தளைப் பிறப்பின் முடிவுறா மிச்சங்களா
எம் முன்னோர் எழு பிறப்பு தவப் பயனின் எச்சங்களா
இங்கு நடம் புரியும் எம் இனிய சான்றோர் தரும் (நம்)

Raoji and MKR, Thanks for the wishes. MKR I was missing your ego less posts when I returned to the forum. I am great fan of your posts with sense of fairness especially when suddenly discussions stoop to the level of personal ego clashes.
Raoji, Please call me only as 'chalanata'. 'Sir' title embarrasses me!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Feb 2015, 14:51

Chalanata,
Hope your wish is granted. All these years, I haven't been able to shed the madam' handle

Now that I get the chance, rasikap peru makkaLE (great rasikAs), Arasi is my pen name--so, it needs no additions to show respect to the individual that I am

I stress this because age differences don't matter among us because we are learning much from those who are younger to us. We are equals in our exchanges, however elevated some are in their vidvat...

Where I live, even children call me by my name, but are respectful to me in their dealings. So,I feel more embarrassed when 'madam' gets attached to my name

In a lighter vein, how much more can you add respect to, by adding 'madam' to Her majesty

Is the last word in your revised version 'tharum'?

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 27 Feb 2015, 15:31

Arasi, Yes I agree; it should be tharum only and I am making the changes accordingly; to be honest it was not my original intent. No doubt with your profound knowledge you are fine tuning it. About salutations, you as a lady would have been facing this right from the start and by now I presume you have gone beyond caring.