Tricks of the Swaragyana Masters

[Ranganayaki]

I too gave a sort of shout out to you both in the events thread on the Akkarai Sisters concert.. on entering the webcast, I could not make out the drone, and I believed I was hearing Hemavathi, even though Kulkarni and Chellappa had already commented saying it was Keeravani (I'm guessing that Kedar Kulkarni must be Coolkarni). I thought it was because she was singing clipped brighas wihtout much oscillation.. but on re-listening, from the beginning, I simply could not hear any Hemavathi.. but I was glad to have heard it before, or I would never have noticed the relationship between K and H. The lack of context of what had gone ahead along with the drone not being clearly audible did it.. lacking context, I misidentified what I was listening to, even though I had faith in Coolkarni and KVC to know what they were saying.

[Ranganayaki]

I had a nice moment a couple of weeks ago.. My son did agree that the R_G sisters "knew how to sing", but was only half listening to something that was clearly enjoyable (unlike many other singers as he correctly points out with ugly, vipareeta gamakams along with poor vocal habits).. He was listening to his music at the same time, as it sometimes happens with us - both things playing and I listen only to mine .. I asked him if he was listening to R_G or his music and he admitted that he was listening to his thing, some type of instrumental western rock something (which was nice and wasn't bothering me). So I was bugged with him that he was not willing to pay fuller attention to what I was listening to (on the radio, while his was repeatable). "But I am listening a little to yours too," he said. I had just launched into a sort of complaining tirade about not being openminded and not developing his connection to his own culture when he arrested me by saying,"You know the two are in the exact same scale." I stopped to listen and he was right (!!), it was true - the R_G sisters were singing Natabhairavi and that other music (have to find out from him what it was when he returns from a holiday) was set to the same key as the sisters (G, if I remember right). You can imagine how thrilled I was.. this is the musicality of his that I referred to in another thread - he lacks training in CM , but he hears things that I can't readily hear. It thrills me, but frustrates me even more that he does not care for CM - just attitude developed by people around me who don't like CM. But I am delighted that he has JUST started mridangam lessons with Vijay Ganesh and is enjoying it so far - two classes in. Thought it was a little related to what we had discussed here, so wanted to share it with you.

PS: It was the natural minor scale, which translates to Natabhairavi.. I told him the name of the raga.. Later I quizzed him and asked him what the natural minor scale is called in CM and he said yeah you told me - and he improvized - Naughty Boy Rahvi (Ravi)? I could only roll up my eyes ..

[ganesh_mourthy]

Ranganayaki,

Yes indeed that in our pursuit for refined taste and niceties , we start missing out on some natural instincts, just probably because we ignore it.

By the by , have you listened to this. This is an absolute sth that has haunted my mind for several months and lingers in my mind fresh though I have heard it several times . The note and rythm combination is fantastic.

And I am sure you would not miss the scale it is a clear to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsaTuyjS1Ic

VK is busy and he will join us sometime soon.

[SrinathK]

Ah, a thread most delightful indeed! What have I been missing ... I have dozens of ideas flying around in my head simply reading the thread topic.

All of you have raked up my memory in one of my first posts regarding brighas in vocals. At that time I had spent a couple of hours trying to transcribe a 3 min alapana of GNB in Panthuvarali (the recording is still there on my soundcloud). https://soundcloud.com/user461654480/gn ... li-alapana

I have decided to put the whole thing here once again. With some little improvements :

G,,, <Alapana Starts here> -- (P)M,G, M, DNSN DPM, (G) R,,, -- G,M, DNSN DP-MDPM (G)R GMDM,D-(M)G, R,S, -- R,(M),G,R, RSS,, RG-RS(n)d,, -- n,R,G,M,D,NGRRSN DPM GR,, – GMPD NS RSN DM GR – GN-DNSN D, DN-DPM GR, -- GMDMD - (M)G, R(G), RSS,,...

D, DNDN (D)M, DNRNDPM, -- DN,M, DNSRS,NDPM, -- DN,M, DNSRSN-DRSN DPM GR GMPDNS RGRSN DNSRSNDPM, -- D,M,D,NSR,S,,S,,, -- S,N,S,,RG-RSN,D, -- D,NSRS, S,RN, (S)NRSN-DPM,G,, -- GMPDNS-RG,- RGRSN,D(N) DG,(R)G, – RSS, -- DNSRG-RSN-DNSRSN-DRSNDPM -- (Heavy gamaka here) GR-MG-DM-ND SN G-RG-NR-DN-PD-MP-GM,R, -- GMPD NGRN,-D,M, -DNS – DNRNR DNRN D,M,G,R,, -- (RSS,,, - played by the violin)

S,N,S,,S,,,RG-RS(S)N, -- R,R,RG-RG R,, -- R,R,R,RSN,R,-GMPM (G)R, RG RS(N)S, -- R,N,R,G, GGRSND,,, (N)D,N,R,G,RSN, -- R,G, RSND,, -- N,R,G, RSNDPM G, M,D,N,R,G,RSN D, -- (Brigha) DNSRG,-(S)RG-GRSND, -- DNSRG,RGGRSN DNSRGRSN GRSN DNSRSN RSN DPM GR,, -- GMPDNSN DPMGR GMPDNSRG RSNDPM GR GMPDNSR GMPM GRSN DPM (G)R,,, -- GMPDNS RG – RG,RSN DNDPM GR GMDN GGRR,,RG RSN DPM GR, - MG PM DP N, M, -- PM DP ND SN RNR D, -- DP ND SN (RS) GR MGM RG RG NR DN MD MP GM R, GM PD NG R,N, D,M,G,, --

GMPD,(D)NSR, S, (N)RS, (N)D,,, -- MD, DNSRSND,, DRSND,P,(P)M, -- P,D (S)N,D, DNSRSN D, P, M, -- P,D (S)N,D, DN-D, P, M, -- G,MPDN DDPP, -- MD,P(N)D,P, MDPM, G,,, -- G,M,R, - G,(S)N, DNRN,R, RND, DS-NDPM GR,,, -- G(M), (G)M,, DNSN DPMGR,, -- GNM, DNRN DPM, GR,, GMD(M)MNDD,M,GR,,, -- R,GM G,MD M,DN D, MD MNDD,,M (G) R, GMDMD (M)G, R, -- R,MG, R, S, -- S,,, nRGRSn dnSRSndpm (n)d,(n)d, -- S,nG RS S, (n)d,, n,, S,,,… (END) <Excerpt of ninnE nEra namminAnura>

There are quite some interesting combinations up there which I wasn't anticipating and it blew me away completely.

To get here I had to listen to each phrase quite a few times - some of the long brighas even 10 times or so. On plenty of occasions I slowed the recording to 1/3rd it's normal speed (Total Recorder) to listen to the brigha explosions! Fortunately the precision of GNB's brighas makes them easier to note down. A -- indicates where ever a phrase ends.

The problem here is that I can't quite show the acceleration / deceleration in the brighas very well at all. There are fast brighas and then there are some that accelerate to supersonic and back to slow in the same phrase! And no use in trying to show the gamakas -- hand written notations are still superior.

[SrinathK]

Interestingly the swara I've had most trouble identifying is always a PLAIN N2 - kaishiki nishadam. I have since then understood that the problem is that this particular combination S - N2 (ascending from base sa) is a rare combination and I didn't practice it as much.

When you don't get something complex, a) Slow down, REALLY slow down until you can follow every movement and inflection and bump b) Split a long phrase into smaller, manageable parts, then integrate them till you get the whole phrase, then the whole line, then the whole pallavi or anupallavi and eventually the entire item (krithi, varnam, tanam, alapana, neraval, kalpanaswaras, RTPs).

I'd encourage writing down any phrase that you come across as interesting. Every artiste has their own signatures in their phrases and swara combinations and this is unique to each artiste. I have plans to write down my own notations to many compositions (and I have done on a few already) and I'd strongly request every one to try writing their own notations. It will tell you more than what you'll ever get from reading books with notations.

Now I have ideas to share small excerpts from recordings on my soundcloud and deciphering their phrases...

[ganesh_mourthy]

I'd encourage writing down any phrase that you come across as interesting. Every artiste has their own signatures in their phrases and swara combinations and this is unique to each artiste. I have plans to write down my own notations to many compositions (and I have done on a few already) and I'd strongly request every one to try writing their own notations. It will tell you more than what you'll ever get from reading books with notations.

Now I have ideas to share small excerpts from recordings on my soundcloud and deciphering their phrases...

Srinath, welcome aboard! This thread has been staggering with only Ranganayaki coming resourceful and VK and I blabbering to build it up, though my ideas are simple in swara deciphering which is anecdotal evidence with some of friends. Your inputs will be really helpful to understand discussion in question case by case.

My problem was Da1 and Ni2 for a long time. I easily used to get confused here if there is only one of it. I am luckily I am much past it.

When you say analysing one's own alapanas , do you mean to record it and notate?

[SrinathK]

ganesh_mourthy wrote

When you say analysing one's own alapanas , do you mean to record it and notate?

Yes. Not only yours. Try to write down a short phrase you hear and remember it. Then another phrase. Then another. With a sufficiently large "vocabulary", one can give a huge speech (alapana) of any raga.

Here's one (since you mentioned the D1 problem) : Payyada (Nadanaamakriya) - Tisra TripuTa (+2 eduppu) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRvyHaIGEfE -- Listen only to the 1st line and see the gamaka on that D1

, , | , , | D D || D , |, , ||, , |, D |||
, , | , , | Pai ya ||da, |,,||,, |,pai |||

P , | , (D) M |, , || P , | , , || , , | M P(D) ||| PMGM |,G - M | P,DP - MP || D , | , , || ...
mee,|, de | , , ||jE , | , , || , , | , , ||| ri , , , | , , -- Pai | ya , , , || da , | , , | ...

Underlined is double speed and bold underlined is 4x faster. (In this online editor, I have severe limitations in even aligning the swaras and sahitya together and can't do a double underline to show 4x speed -- that's why I prefer hand written notes, but I hope you get the idea )

You can observe that the gamaka on the Looooong D1 goes like (PD PD P, | PD PD, P || PD PD ,,,|) -- actually it's a rhythmic oscillation between P and D1.

If you listen more you will also find at the end of the 2nd line @ 1:48 in the video - a phrase that goes like : P,DP - MP ||| MG-RG | RSS, , |, <Ammamma> Can you recognize it?

A very very essential point is that you should be able to sing / play along with the recording of the phrase you want to master, even if it is a very small phrase -- this because gamakas have their own internal rhythmic movements which can't be correctly shown in notations. Imitation is the easiest way to actually learn that into one's long term memory.

[Ranganayaki]

G_m, I have seen that video before. My son showed it to me may be 6 months ago. It seems to be the natural minor scale again, the D key this time. It seems to go down to A and up to A. So if you consider A as the key, then it would be Todi. But I am unable to consider A as the key. How did you hear it?

[ganesh_mourthy]

Ranganayaki ,

I have some innate instinct to bring it to carnatic form and whichever octave is dominant I make a guess on it say. It may not work absolutely right. At some point it is Natabhairavi for me. Or rather in most part. But there is a shift midway. He changes the pattern ( pattern is all that I could feel ) . In such cases I think a light musician of IR perhaps will see it differently. But it is scintillating , is it not? to have note and rythm together?

[Ranganayaki]

srinathk, for n2 and n3, how about taking two close ragas like keeravani and natabhairavi and practising their arohanam and avarohanam in swaras and akaram at various speeds so you are sensitised to the difference? Of course the stress on the dha is different in both.

Then you could do another approach to the ni with kharaharapriya and gowri manohari.. again the stress on the da is different too.

And how about Brindavana Saranga - a raga with both nishadhas, one going up and one coming down?

[Ranganayaki]

G_m, Yes, music and rhythm together in a single instrument, wonderful. And I too think in terms of Indian music. So beyond a certain point, I get turned around if I try to understand it the western way. Yes, when I say natural minor, I meant Natabhairavi, except that he does srgmp in one octave and pdns in the lower octave. The instrument doesn't seem to have a very wide range, it seems it can play one octave at the most, as far as I can hear it. I read that its creators were inspired by the Ghatam. If you grihabed to the lower Pa as Sa, then you get Todi.. I was wondering if that was your choice, but I did think it was unlikely, and counterintuitive.

[SrinathK]

Singing long kaarvais and listening to the alignment with the tanpura is a very effective exercise - 1st the swara, then in akara and other vowels too. For plain notes, IIRC, Vk and I had decided on a list of 12 intervals good for plain note practice in CM in the 22 shruti thread.

I'd recommend taking phrases in Kalyani for N3 as it has a sustained N3. Natabhairavi is a very good raga for N2. But I'd recommend ragas like Reetigowla also. Take phrases and decipher the underlying swaras too. Sri ranjani is a good raga to get the difference between N2 and D2 vs Abhogi.

To get all 3 Dhaivatams, try Anandabhairavi.

I strongly insist on the vivadi ragas above all others (surprising, but yes, those will fine tune your ears to 1/2 tones in a way that other ragas couldn't).

For a real challenge, decipher Sindhubhairavi.

[Ranganayaki]

I strongly insist on the vivadi ragas above all others (surprising, but yes, those will fine tune your ears to 1/2 tones in a way that other ragas couldn't).

I strongly agree.

[SrinathK]

Let me see if over time, we can take up artistes' alapanas (short clips) and analyse their phrases. Maybe I'll start with something simpler and sweeter and then see if we can do something more complicated. My own 2 cents : If you want to be a true swaragyana masters, there are a few CM masters that come to my mind as the best and toughest learning experience for learning to translate a phrase into swaras (obviously it is far from exhaustive, but it's a starting point) -- GNB, TSK, Brinda & Muktha, TNR (and nadaswaram music as such), and yes, Abhishek! (Yes. That last entry on the list definitely has to belong at the top of the charts). If you can decipher these, you can decipher anybody.

[ganesh_mourthy]

And the easiest for you is?

Besides, I have been telling , or even proving, that two people cannot 100 % accurately decipher an artiste, esp one like TNS. There will be slight differences. Let us say dha2 dha2 ni2 dha2 at super speed can be amgiguous. It depends on what the vidhwan has in his head and how we hear it , which is also conditioned by our preset mind , our gnana on that particular raga, his control, our control in deciphering, more than anything the vidhwans swara control (I stress here - the super speeds). It often tricks the mind of the listener and also the singer. It is hard to super slow with a software because there is Tambura sound that interferes, but I have several times observed this happening, which is phenomenal to Carnatic, this mind tricking sounds. Or mind teasing sounds.

[SrinathK]

Musical experience is not 100% objective and there is always a subjective perception (which I don't see as a defect). I fully agree and respect that. I have myself slightly revised my notes when listening to that GNB alapana a second time and there are some phrases always which are truly awkward to convert into swaras and which at the most can be approximated.

For e.g M(D) PM (G)R, S - R(G) RG... -- a very common opening line in Kalyani. Should I write it as MD-(P)M - GR, RSS - RG-(R)G ? It's also valid since there are so many anuswaras touched upon -- that slide from G to R for example -- is the G3 to be included as a swara or an anuswara? Should I simply write it as PM R,S ? I could. But it may not convey the nature of the slide down to that R2. It may even mislead the observer into thinking that Kalyani just skipped that G3 for no reason. But on the flip side if I wrote down every note that a phrase touched, it will sound weird trying to sing it -- one quickly realizes that the laws of swaras with more defined boundaries and "quantized spacing" begin to melt down. In ragas, we are in a territory where the barriers between notes are fuzzy and the time durations can be stretched and shrunk arbitrarily.

Which is why I insisted that each one write their own notations -- the phrases we hear are the same to a computer, and each computer will promptly reproduce them exactly a million times in a row (I don't want to rake in the quality of musical players, sound cards and speakers here). That does not apply to a human being. The experience doesn't come well when I read a book typed in word. A hand written notation gives more hints, but even there it is something more profound when your teacher teaches you the line and writes it for you. The best experience occurs when YOU write your own notations.

The ultimate purpose of a notation in CM is an aid to the memory and to develop a massive vocabulary of phrases. That runs completely counter to learning Western music where you have all the notes laid out in a sheet and YOU have to create the music and give it form and individuality from that template.

@ganesh_mourthy Nevertheless sir, I believe one can be sufficiently good enough . Accompanists do a remarkable job time and again at grasping the main artiste's imagination. I have not made an easiest list, although I have found some artistes like LGJ to be a little easier for me for some reason. Some are definitely a lot harder than others.

[Ranganayaki]

I have found some artistes like LGJ to be a little easier for me for some reason. Some are definitely a lot harder than others.

I think there is an important reason LGJ is easier, it is because he strove for precision, making the swaras unmistakable, and had a consistent style. He was not given to gratuitous and excessive speed, and while playing very high speeds, there is no blurring, or vagueness, each and every note is precise, no matter what the speed.

[ganesh_mourthy]

It is getting interesting.

And the blurry note intervals you mentioned Srinath , I think that embellishes the music. The nuances. You find it everywhere including light music. Ah wait , filmy music is something I can decipher notes the easiest without any interference of my raaga knowledge. Because it is plain notes and meends. But there is also this blurry subtle notes.

About LGJ , often he used anuswaras and conscious mind teasing and made you to believe that he played another note, sometimes even in the first phrase of the song. It reached the audiences well for its kuzaivu .

MSG is someone I would say had that crystal clear to the minutest level of note clarity in whatever speed. Magically clear. Proof - the saveri varnam.

But just before proceeding , do you sing or play any instrument? and you Ranganayaki? and VK plays flute. It helps to understand from the eyes of the instrument .

[SrinathK]

Yes I can sing and had passable violin skills but circumstances of being far from family haven't let me practice anything for years now, alas! Such a pity too, as I had just understood at that point what it took to go from passable to great . On the plus side, it has given me a lot of opportunity to analyse and introspect on the music and what was lacking in my skill set that prevented me from improving beyond a point and I've been working off and on those things. I have also realized the importance of an artiste's life support system that is not seen on the stage.

Yes, knowing an instrument is a great boon alright. Things that come naturally to the voice and an imitative mind need to be grasped and understood properly to be reproduced on the instrument which forces you to pay attention to the subtle movements of the phrases -- I only now get it why many great vocalists of the past were sometimes taught the veena. Vice versa, knowing how to sing is a great asset for the instrumentalist as IMHO, the imagination soars more freely and ideas roll uninterrupted while singing -- it seems to me that playing the instrument is definitely more demanding on the brain than singing (for which the hardware is built in). But the instrument also makes you much more analytical and teaches you to practice properly. The violin is especially merciless at showing you your every flaw.

ganesh_mourthy :
And the blurry note intervals you mentioned Srinath , I think that embellishes the music. The nuances.

The raga IS there. The world of phrases slowly reveals itself as the swaras begin to melt into their underlying phrases. IMHO, our music is actually not from the note. All notations are ultimately to assist the memory.

[Ranganayaki]

It is getting interesting.


And the blurry note intervals you mentioned Srinath , I think that embellishes the music. The nuances. You find it everywhere including light music. Ah wait , filmy music is something I can decipher notes the easiest without any interference of my raaga knowledge. Because it is plain notes and meends. But there is also this blurry subtle notes.

i think i was the one that used the word "blur." I like the liberties film songs take with ragas but I don't enjoy the blurring so much in carnatic music, but I do get past it to enjoy the bigger picture.

About LGJ , often he used anuswaras and conscious mind teasing and made you to believe that he played another note, sometimes even in the first phrase of the song. It reached the audiences well for its kuzaivu .

MSG is someone I would say had that crystal clear to the minutest level of note clarity in whatever speed. Magically clear. Proof - the saveri varnam.

G_M, while I was writing it, I was thinking of exactly the same things -LGJ's use of anuswaras and MSG's clarity- but still I think what I wrote was valid.. I could have added "and no matter how minute the swaras", maybe.. And since I was writing only about Lgj, my comment about his precision and clarity takes nothing away from MSG's pristine music. This teasing and make believe that you say he performs - could the subtle grihabhedam he performs in the (misra)Shivaranjani tillana be an example? I can think of such examples, but could you give me yours?

But just before proceeding , do you sing or play any instrument? and you Ranganayaki? and VK plays flute. It helps to understand from the eyes of the instrument .

Sometimes, I feel comfortable to say I sing, sometimes I don't, depending on how much I've been actually singing and how well my voice responds. Right now I am in the phase of not being able to say I sing. It has been a couple of years since I sang regularly and I am unhappy with my voice now. Let's say I learnt vocal music. I learn songs of various levels of complexity, and I don't do manodharma.

[ganesh_mourthy]

ranganayaki

Lalgudi does it often everywhere. Esp if it is ri2g2 in kharaharapriya, or dh2ni2 . Esp if the raaga has the possibility of doing so like in ghamaka filled ragas where it can be allowed to, but not in the bagyashree and the likes though it has such combination of swaras. There is always a little kuzhaivu and anu anu swaras ( slight microtone variation) and subtility added unlike in MSG where you hear the notes , all crisp .

[SrinathK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gDL7VTQruo

So here's an exercise for those interested, try out the Madhyamavati alapana, phrase by phrase. GNB may be fast with super-manuevarable execution(which is the main reason for the difficulty) , but if you can handle that, you will find his phrases are razor precise and lend themselves easier to swara transcribing and offer a wealth of raga phrases. If I may, I will probably take up some brigha sangathis for analysis too.

Again if I am violating a forum policy on sharing recordings, let me know.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Hi Shrikanth

I did not have problem with transcribing them, but it is a task though. you have to stop several times if you have to write. But I will do it. Hope VK joins us too. IN fact he would feel that we are jumping guns, but it will be interesting .

[SrinathK]

Ok, wait. A small change to the rules. I realize that transcribing the whole alapana is a daunting undertaking. Therefore I propose a variation instead :

Take one or two phrases you find interesting. Write it down and let us know at what point in the video (say @ 10:30 min) the phrase begins (you can mention where it ends too). That way, you don't need to spend more time than to listen to the recording + a bit extra.

[ganesh_mourthy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gDL7VTQruo

So here's an exercise for those interested, try out the Madhyamavati alapana, phrase by phrase. GNB may be fast with super-manuevarable execution(which is the main reason for the difficulty) , but if you can handle that, you will find his phrases are razor precise and lend themselves easier to swara transcribing and offer a wealth of raga phrases. If I may, I will probably take up some brigha sangathis for analysis too.

Again if I am violating a forum policy on sharing recordings, let me know.

Srinath , where is Madhamavati alapana in this link you have given?

[SrinathK]

Ouch! Sorry. I was busy downloading a few other videos and must have mixed up the links copy pasting : Here you go. Palinchu Kamakshi by GNB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62_I03xX0lY

[vasanthakokilam]

I hope to try this limited and well bounded exercise. I like Madyamavathi which helps and hope I can at least get the sense for the hop, skip and a jump that this raga entails: SRM, MRS, PNS, SNP combinations.

Not sure when but I will give it a try. Thanks.

[ganesh_mourthy]

VK , RN, and Sri

Tangentially , I want you to watch this first 55 seconds of the video. A couple of years ago while I was in Hanoi, my colleague ( native of Hanoi) was speaking to her friend over phone. Initially it made me to crack , but I realized that it was full of quick shift in tones and it was baffling to me. May be these people get these shift in tones naturally .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dps2_fUosJo

[Ranganayaki]

chennai used to have a lot of Vietnamese expats and they spoke Tamil well..

Sounded like the twangs of the Jewish Harp (morsing )!! and if they were to say funny things it would be like built-in Tamil movie comedy .

[vasanthakokilam]

Hey I got the first phrase: R2 R2 R2.. R2 M1 P M1 R2... S...

(for this exercise, will it be ok if I use my flute to verify if it is correct? Even if so, I will have to be careful not to use the flute to determine the swaras but just to verify it)

[ganesh_mourthy]

VK , it is fine to use flute. But just wondering if you could play flute in mind and convert it into notes in real time , as you do with a real flute. This is important after somelevel and it actually can be achieved. You can sing a powerful niraval actually in silence and listen to it (in silence). All that you have to do is to shut the outside world and orient yourself to that flute. I can do that with violin , and all that happens is my fingers slightly twitch . I still remember one of my violin teachers used to sometimes play with his fingers ( without the violin ) to write down the notations for me.

[vasanthakokilam]

g_m, interesting. No, I am not anywhere close to that.

But I do wonder how it happens when I get something right on my flute with out any conscious effort to convert it to notes. The flip side of the coin is the frustration when I do not get a melody right no matter what I try. That is the case with the vast majority of times. That is where I need the skills we talk about in this thread.

I practice a form of the exercise you prescribe which is to sing out the various swaras ( though not with the rigor you specify but something is better than nothing and hoping those things will somehow contribute to the swara gyana). This is mostly while I am driving. In that exercise, I do try to get the tone in my mind first and then vocalize it. Nice if and when I get it right!!

[vasanthakokilam]

While we are at this, let me write about something I can do which is quite interesting in itself. By now you all have a decent idea where my swara skills are. It is quite limited. The limitations are the opposite wrt to flute and voice. On the flute, I can play a given set of swaras but I can not play an arbitrary melody. On the voice, I can repeat an arbitrary melody with some accuracy but I can not sing a set of swaras beyond a few notes in sequence. I think this in itself is not very unusual.

But something interesting happens....

when I am in the car and listening to a raga ( alapana or niraval ), I sometimes can get into a zone where I can sing that raga quite fluently. It pretty much does not matter what that raga is. And I am not repeating exactly what the singer is singing. The singing is not via the swaras obviously (given my limitations there ). It is not same as repeating an arbitrary melody exactly but I think the brain is using a similar function. Remember I am an order of magnitude less skilled in vocal than on the flute which isn't saying much but when I am in that zone something breaks out of those severe limitations imposed by the conscious mind. The raga sort of exists by itself and my voice traverses the swaras ( whether it is a jump or in sequence ) without my conscious effort to express that raga. But I am conscious enough to hear it myself and so it is a lot of fun.

The phenomenon is hard to reproduce and in fact if I try it consciously with an effort to recreate it, it usually would not happen. Also the quality of singing is not that great so this is not something I would volunteer to do in public. Just to make sure I am not hallucinating, a couple of times it happened when someone else was in the car and they acknowledged it was that raga. They were mildly bewildered when I told them I really do not know the raga that well and I can not sing the same thing by myself on demand without that musical backdrop.

So the curious thing is not that it happens, a skilled vocalist can do it in their sleep, but it happens to someone like me who is so limited in raga singing skills otherwise.

[SrinathK]

Ok, so will someone translate that brigha sangathi that GNB sings in the Pallavi line? Special appreciation for anyone who tries.
You don't have to be perfect. Remember, the master has failed more times than the student has ever tried.

@vk, You got it. It's R, R, R,, (S) --- R, MP, MR, (R)S - A swara in brackets is where a slide starts from or ends at or briefly touches as an anuswaram. At last, a start.

Ok. One more clarification. You don't have to translate the whole thing. One phrase at a time is enough. We'll compile it all later. Here's to help out.

2nd phrase : S, , , -- S, (M) RS,,,n (n)p , , (Commas are arbitrary. Just meant to give a hint of how long each note was touched. Note that there is a small slide on the first S.

3rd phrase : nSR,S, R, RMPN PPM- (R)S, R,(P)- MN-PM R,,(S) -- Observe the janta and dhatu usage inside this brigha. For clarity, you can slow the video to 0.5x.

4th phrase : R,M, PMM R, M, P,, P,,, -- Ah the limitations of the browser editors!

[Ranganayaki]

I'm not into brighas but gnb is amazing, and it's so appealing! But hard hard to follow. I can't do it all, but I think Paapa Shamani in the final sangati goes like this..

Paa - PNSRM--
pa - RMR-SRS
Sha - nsn
ma- pnp
ni - mpmrmrsr

I don't know if there are more. I think if there were more swaras in this, they would have to be jantas like nsnn pnpp, but I don't think that's the case..

Will try to work with the earlier part of the line, but it's hard..

[SrinathK]

Ah, yes! My special congratulations madam as promised -- this only comes by repeatedly hearing, trying and trying till . I would have wanted to wait for someone else to try, but sometimes I feel compelled by the music... ok, I will give another one after this alapana is done :

Just to point out one correction : |NSRM || , , R,MR |S,RS N,SN || P,NP M,PM | R,PM RS || (Paalimchu) -- R,MR RS would follow the pattern after M,PM, but this would be aesthetically weaker, hence the pattern is broken at this point by introducing a dhattu R,PM instead.

This particular pattern brigha being sung at 2x normal speed in chatushra nadai, all the patterns must add up to 4 counts to fit in the tala or else it will become tisra nadai. Hence RMR - SRS - NSN will be sung as R,MR S,RS N,SN which if you listen at half speed, is what the mridangist plays. Another variation is also RMR, SRS, NSN, PNP, MPM, which has a stronger "attack effect" at the start of the brigha.

These brighas, to really appreciate their construction, it is necessary to slow down the recording and decode their internal rhythms and melodies.

[Ranganayaki]

Just to point out one correction : |NSRM || , , R,MR |S,RS N,SN || P,NP M,PM | R,PM RS || (Paalimchu) -- R,MR RS would follow the pattern after M,PM, but this would be aesthetically weaker, hence the pattern is broken at this point by introducing a dhattu R,PM instead.

As I listend, Paa of "paapa" begins with the swara pa - it is PNSRM. I did not try to fit with taala, chose not to do that, just didn't take the time, and tried to listen to the swaras.

This particular pattern brigha being sung at 2x normal speed in chatushra nadai, all the patterns must add up to 4 counts to fit in the tala or else it will become tisra nadai. Hence RMR - SRS - NSN will be sung as R,MR S,RS N,SN which if you listen at half speed, is what the mridangist plays. Another variation is also RMR, SRS, NSN, PNP, MPM, which has a stronger "attack effect" at the start of the brigha.

These brighas, to really appreciate their construction, it is necessary to slow down the recording and decode their internal rhythms and melodies.

What do you mean when you say you slow it down? Do you hear all the swaras on your own, or do you slow it down to get these details? How do you do that?

But slowing down the music with technology is not particularly interesting to me, I would rather hear it at the speed it is sung. I am happy to be doing this exercise and thrilled to be making out swaras I could not readily hear, but if I can't hear each and every swara on my own without technology, I'm fine with it.

[SrinathK]

There is an option to play the video at 0.5x speed in the Youtube player settings button.

It is aesthetically not pleasing as it sloooooooowssss down every movement. Nevertheless it reveals interesting things. Among others I have found that the best singers do not lose swarasthana even at high speeds and all their modulations are actually well controlled. I also found out the amount of gamaka GNB could put into a brigha (his is a special case of a heavy voice which is still super manuevarable) -- it was this that gave the brighas that weight and power.

Varnams that are sung properly in higher speeds sound very close to their slower speed renditions, but the gamakas are "clipped" at the point of jumping the notes - there is a small staccatto like effect which is what imparts a percussive feel to the brighas.

Regarding the PNSRM phrase, I thought it had the P at normal speed, but at 0.5x speed I thought it started with a gamaka on the N and there is a small janTa on the upper M. This is straddling the point where it becomes difficult to come to one conclusion. Nevertheless that swara awareness is necessary if that brigha has to be played or sung with that precision. It is clever to start a brigha with a swaraaksharam, isn't it?

We can return to the alapana now. Will anyone attempt the 5th phrase from 0:26 in the video? (At this point, you're all flying the plane now . I'll just watch and see who tries and who discusses.)

Note : Good skills like these are required if some enthusiasts may wish to contribute making notations of recordings ....

[ganesh_mourthy]

Srinath,

What is that notation software you are using and its limitations you have mentioned?! To me notes have not been a problem, or rather it should not be, as that is how I spent a lot of time whenever I had to spend some time alone following phrase by phrase along side some thengamudis participation those days. Not anymore. So , notes were not a problem for me, but getting it on fingers in realtime was the problem, especially when you hear a lot of " No mans land", then the you may have to tone down , or otherwise you are just highlighting that no mans land, and you may have to face the music. That is one area I also dipped my feet , but out of it completely.
. But jotting down in a legible format is something I would be happy with, as oftentimes I get asked for notations for some songs. It is 100 times harder for me to notate. The simplest would be for VK to try to follow the slow phrases in flute, as he already plays it. Though it may seem impossible in the beginning , it gets second nature overtime, and notes gets in subconsciously. But we are talking tricks here , so we will go with it.

On one thing particularly , I beg to differ with Srinath. Actually , at great speeds the best artistes ( best in terms of voice is what you mean , right?) can simulate perfection of notes, but is not possible to be perfect note. That applies also to the instruments. Very very very very ... or just a couple of artistes I could hear the notes nicely rolling out ( still there are some simulations). 1.BMK 2.MS..

If one is hearing notes to perfection, it is the simulation that one has got used to and we can call it "carnatic ear", with so many sangathis and phrases already stored in our brain that tries to match when the singer sings. This is great too.

With the best simulation who can greatly trick your mind and can bring out those scintillating phrases - that is LGJ and his " tour de force".

I am gearing for a long trip , so pls carry on , I will keep up with your interesting conversation. I will try to notate also to learn notation process.

VK, I have the next graduated level of exercise for you. Hope you are keeping up too. .

[Ranganayaki]

There is an option to play the video at 0.5x speed in the Youtube player settings button.

Thanks for that.. I tried it just to see what you are talking about with the NSRM. GNB is truly brilliant.

Regarding the PNSRM phrase, I thought it had the P at normal speed, but at 0.5x speed I thought it started with a gamaka on the N and there is a small janTa on the upper M. This is straddling the point where it becomes difficult to come to one conclusion. Nevertheless that swara awareness is necessary if that brigha has to be played or sung with that precision. It is clever to start a brigha with a swaraaksharam, isn't it?

I agree and disagree with you. He does begin with a NI, but my impression is that it is a gamakam on Pa. It is a slide to pa from NI. And there is no janta on Ma. THE last 2 notes including the final Ma in that phrase are clearly two different successive notes with two different pitches. May be you are subconsciously trying to make the note count correct because you want 5 notes and not four that you've got with NSRM.

I disagree with you on this exercise for VK. As I expressed my view when I first expressed my ideas on this topic, he needs to find a brigha-free recording. Now if you need to slow down this recording and remove all the beauty and brilliance of the singer to do this exercise, then what's the point ? He might as well use a prettier and naturally slower snippet of music.

Srinathk, what is the point of notating all this? This is improvisation, why would you want to capture it? Even if the scholars of posterity want to do a thesis on the brilliance of GNB, then if the recordings are preserved, they need to listen to the recordings and interpret and appreciate it on their own. It will have to be their original work. It makes sense to notate songs, but not alapanas, unless you are doing it for your individual pleasure.

But it's certainly a fun challenge for an occasion to chat about it here and I liked doing this snippet. But I'm afraid the discussion will draw me into slowing down the music as I just did, to see what you meant, and I don't want to engage in that. It kills it for me.

[Ranganayaki]

About the usefulness or futility of this exercise, and on what VK should do, I do disagree with you, but I don't mean do much more than just share an opinion and a reasoning. I know you and VK may disagree and that's fine.

[SrinathK]

Srinathk, what is the point of notating all this? This is improvisation, why would you want to capture it? Even if the scholars of posterity want to do a thesis on the brilliance of GNB, then if the recordings are preserved, they need to listen to the recordings and interpret and appreciate it on their own. It will have to be their original work. It makes sense to notate songs, but not alapanas, unless you are doing it for your individual pleasure.

This exercise is the key to developing raga gnyana -- manodharma isn't as improvised as one thinks it is, much of it is like giving a speech, some of it is rehearsed, much more of it is researched. Spontaneity comes over time. Raga phrases can be notated -- it is knowing a large vocabulary of various kinds of raga phrases that will allow one to develop their own raga essays and improvise beyond. This will come back to help in notating compositions later. I have not asked for a perfect reproduction, because everyone interprets a phrase slightly differently and this is where one artist begins to differentiate oneself from another.

I disagree with you on this exercise for VK. As I expressed my view when I first expressed my ideas on this topic, he needs to find a brigha-free recording. If you need to slow down this recording and remove all the beauty and brilliance of the singer to do this exercise, then what's the point ? He might as well use a prettier and slower snippet of music.

Then try this - LGJ : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO2RU0E9Nac -- I have said it before. LGJ is one of the easier artistes because he can bring out the whole raga with even simple phrases. You have a visual reference too in the form of the finger technique to tell you the swaras -- I do not think you need to slow down this recording at any time to decipher the shorter phrases. So it should be easier. Out of all artistes, violinists are exposed to this kind of phrase reproduction exercise more than any other musician.

Notating krithis is one thing, trying to decipher manodharma is another. If you want to get good at it, you have to practice on ragas. The simpler and shorter phrases are the best places to start learning this -- you do not have the burden of fitting them to tala as in the case of krithis.

But let me mention a point - learning should be fun and enjoyable yes. But there are also times where it IS taxing and it will push you beyond your current limits - and one should be prepared for that too. My 2 cents.

Now if you find GNB too hard, try the LGJ recording instead. No brighas. @vk, what do you say to this?

[ganesh_mourthy]

This exercise is the key to developing raga gnyana -- manodharma isn't as improvised as one thinks it is, much of it is like giving a speech, some of it is rehearsed, much more of it is researched.

Srinath , what you have said is true. But , I had to tone down as many disagree with me on this, and frustrating when they opinion just on kelvigyaan.

Ranganayaki,

Notating alapana should be one of the best learning skills for a student , which we have never incorporated into our system. It can change the whole dynamics of learning. And you wont be having to doing it always. Serious Music learner would not do it forever, as he may get used to doing it precisely on the spot. But , to get away with ambiguity initially and to get a grasp it is always good to notate. It is great to try however taxing is. it can speed up the learning curve , though might have a tedious effect initially .

[Ranganayaki]

My point was this: if you are slowing down the brighas ( till they are no longer brighas) and you are also removing beauty from it, what's the point of it? You might as well listen to slower music (first) to acquire Swaragnana. You are implicitly saying it is too difficult !

When you learn, the limit being pushed should only be a little beyond your current ability. When it is far beyond the learner's ability, enjoyment and motivation is lost. As you learn, you push the limit further and further. The ultimate goal can be as far out as you want.

When a person like VK or I would like to decipher notes of a song, there is no burden to fit the notes into a tala. It is simply about listening and hearing the note names in your head. That is the exercise as I understand it. No matter what is sung, if you train methodically to hear notes, that's what you hear, whether you are aware of tala or not.

But I think there are at least 3 different views on what the aim of this thread is. I joined this discussion thinking he original question was one thing but this direction is different.

When you read a book, you hear the actual words in your head. If you see the letter B, it actually sounds like B in your head. That is what I thought VK wanted to achieve.. Raga gnana for manodharma was not the goal as I understood it. It seems the direction and the destination are shifting a lot. We were discussing swaragnana. For that the approach would be more fundamental and more limited, against the broader and more abstract notions of raga.

GM, your post is up there before mine, so I'm adding a response: Yes if a student is doing this out of individual interest, I agree.. I must have misunderstood the scope of what Srinath was proposing. But for this thread, I'm confused as to what the goal is.. For now I have little else to say.

Anyway, thanks for your responses..

Srinath, I'm not sure what your laughter icon before LGJ's name meant!

[ganesh_mourthy]

Ranganayaki ,


I fully agree with you that the thread has drifted a bit. But, let us keep it this way , it serves both advanced ad beginners.

Srinath inputs are of higher level . I guess VK should be enjoying both and will pick the thread soon.

Slowing down to decipher does not make any sense. It can be used to challenge when two greatly disagrees on a particular phrase , that is all. But Srikanth is also onto building manodharma technically, and I welcome that too, so you get a glance of how it is going to be instead of .... we will cross the bridge when we get there. Those days the salari students would still try to enjoy the alapana stage when their seniors sing... at least we have someone to get doubts cleared in this cyberworld, so we shall embrace this system too.

To me the ambiguous notes are too more glaring and I hate to listen like that. While at speed it is anuswaram and embellishments or whatever.. when you slow down it is rather too glaring.

Srinath , let us wait for VK for his thoughts.

[Ranganayaki]

Oops, autocorrect had turned gnana into Gnanaskandan.. Sorry!

[rshankar]

Oops, autocorrect had turned gnana into Gnanaskandan.. Sorry!

Ranganayaki - a good spin on that would be 'guru bhakti'!

[Ranganayaki]

Ravi, ..

Slowing down to decipher does not make any sense. It can be used to challenge when two greatly disagrees on a particular phrase , that is all. But Srikanth is also onto building manodharma technically, and I welcome that too, so you get a glance of how it is going to be instead of .... we will cross the bridge when we get there. Those days the salari students would still try to enjoy the alapana stage when their seniors sing... at least we have someone to get doubts cleared in this cyberworld, so we shall embrace this system too.

To me the ambiguous notes are too more glaring and I hate to listen like that. While at speed it is anuswaram and embellishments or whatever.. when you slow down it is rather too glaring.

Srinath , let us wait for VK for his thoughts.

GM, it is precisely "getting a glance of how it is going to be" vs "let's cross the bridge.." where I disagree with Srinath given VK's aims. I'm not saying anything new, just clarifying. I even bother to disagree because it is only VK who is taking these suggestions and no one else. Before we make this available for a wide range of readers, I would tend to focus on the person who asked the questions in this thread and stay at what he really needs at his level. As for me, I listen for swaras all the time in all my listening. At high speeds, I get the big picture and hope that with time I will sensitize myself more and more. I wouldn't want to sit down and rewind again and again to hear each and every one of the minute swaras in a brigha, and definitely not slow down a brigha. That's for me, given my aims.

I think singers perform mostly intuitively, not NECESSARILY always aware of the swaras they use. I think even in Swara singing, the names for the swaras come automatically to their lips based on the direction they are travelling in and just the sense of the pitch they are at. That intuition is what you need to develop, just like the process of reading a book. Just like fast typing too. Also what I said about learning, motivation and difficulty level.

Slowing down, I found that gnb's Swarashuddam is amazing. But in the PNSRM phrase for example, all the 5 swaras are not of equal length, though they should be.. The sa is longer and the ri shorter. Still the bigger picture is the command over the rhythm. I don't think we should magnify. Brighas are a question of style. Not everybody needs to achieve them to sing a good alapana. It is not a beginner lesson.

In general I agree with listening to alapanas to achieve what I described.

This is all just my opinion, and it is focused on VK, who is taking all the suggestions here and trying them out. He did not ask about manodharma. I would prefer him to walk with some ease, not plod and think the mystery is deeper than it is. I am aware that even VK may disagree, but that is no crime! It is a point of view that he can take or leave and I won't mind if he leaves it.

Just wanted to explain myself.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Ranganayaki , feel free to voice your thoughts. This is a small polite group and we will NOT feel offended. Yes, indeed what VK is upto and the aim of the thread is different. In fact , to some extent, the manodharma appreciation would put you on a different level of intuition. We are just also looking at notes and the reason why I had given some cine songs for VK to try so he will not use grammar for help but only intuition and if you have heard it , it was a nice Kaapi without the strict framework .

I feel that for swara knowledge one should listen to a lot of non classical music, so that one would not be bothered too much with the grammar and the relevant phrases or patterns.

GM

[cacm]

quote="Ranganayaki"]Ravi, ..

quote="ganesh_mourthy"



I think singers perform mostly intuitively, not NECESSARILY always aware of the swaras they use. I think even in Swara singing, the names for the swaras come automatically to their lips based on the direction they are travelling in and just the sense of the pitch they are at. That intuition is what you need to develop, just like the process of reading a book. Just like fast typing too. Also what I said about learning, motivation and difficulty level.

Slowing down, I found that gnb's Swarashuddam is amazing. But in the PNSRM phrase for example, all the 5 swaras are not of equal length, though they should be.. The sa is longer and the ri shorter. Still the bigger picture is the command over the rhythm. I don't think we should magnify. Brighas are a question of style. Not everybody needs to achieve them to sing a good alapana. It is not a beginner lesson.

PLEASE allow me ME TO PERMIT to make a few remarks based on my interactions in this narrow area as I happen to have discussed this PRECISE subject area with MMI, GNB &LGJ : Madurai Mani Iyer practised (AND TAUGHT ALSO)in addition to SRUTI SUDDHANAM & SWARSTHANA SUDDHAM as a prelude & during raga alapana for each ragam. Part of the procedure was to stop the Thambura & try to sing the particular swawramfor the raga at arbitrary locations. Then only raga elaboration would proceed. GNB said he was fortunately able to instantly realise what the swaram was & that helped him to reach the notes almost instantly. I was actually so intrigued with LGJ'S ability to not just instantly follow the style as well as technical points of EVERY major vocalist I did some experiments also! (This may not be in the main stream of the discussions here). My conclusions were: 1) LGJ was quite unique in his grasp of what a musician was likely to do next.This is very difficult in the case of musicians like Flue Mali as he usually would have done lots of experimentation to play what he plays in real time in a concert tho' it would appear to be spontaneous! 2) As long as one was able to do things within one hundredth of a second the listener typically due to complex mind-ear transducer system considers it instantaneous.
I thought this migfht interest at least some tho'this is not addressing the main things being discussed here. VKV