Sharanam and Charanam - Are they same?

Meenalochani · Post by **Meenalochani** » 25 Feb 2016, 22:31

I am interested to know when to use Saranam and Charanam to help my singing. For example, is it "Tiruvadi sharanam" or "Tiruvadi charanam"? Another example "Sharanam sharanam Raghu Rama" or "Charanam charanam Raghu Rama"?

Thanks for any help.

Meenslochani

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 25 Feb 2016, 22:59

sharaNam means surrender. caraNam denote the feet

Meenalochani · Post by **Meenalochani** » 26 Feb 2016, 00:07

Lakshman ji,

Thank you very much. I apply your interpretation to Tiruvadi sharanam as "I surrender to you". The meaning for Charanam with reference to the feet (Tiruvadi) also goes well with this example. Are there other examples that can show me the real difference between the two?

Meenalochani

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Feb 2016, 01:02

Meenalochani,
The two words mean different things in Sanskrit, but in Tamil the two words may be pronounced the same way. They are anyway as you say linked in their meanings to touching someone's feet especially with your head meaning surrender. At the end of VishnuShatpadi, Adi Shankara says:
nArAyaNa karuNAmaya SaraNaM karavANi tAvakau charanau iti SatpadI madIye vadanasarOje sadA vasatu

Here the the word SaraNaM means surrender. tAvakau charanau means "to your two feet"

See the page below:

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Feb 2016, 01:06

tiruvaDi SaraNam enRu nambi vandEn

I came (vandEn) with the firm belief (nambi) that (enRu) your divine feet (tiruvaDi) are my refuge (SaraNam)....

The composition by Sri Arunachala Kavi will retain its meaning if it is sung as 'SaraNam SaraNam raghurAmA' (I seek your refuge, Oh rAma) or 'caraNam SaraNam raghu rAmA' (I seek refuge at your feet, Oh rAmA)...what will not make sense is 'caraNam caraNam raghu rAmA' (which makes it sound like someone is pointing to rAmA's feet)...

HOWEVER, having said that, I think in tamizh, it makes no difference how these words are pronounced, as both शरणम् (refuge) and चरणम् (foot/feet) are written in the same way - as சரணம், and the meaning will have to be inferred contextually.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 26 Feb 2016, 01:46

Here is another example of the two words occuring in the same line (anupallavi):
gajavadana karuNA. rAgA: shrIranjani. Adi tALA. Papanasham Shivan.

P: gajavadana karuNA sadana shankara bAlA lambOdara sundara
A: ajanamarEndranum munivarum paNi pankaja caraNam sharaNam sharaNam shrI
C: nIyE mUvulagirk-kAdhAram nIyE shivakAma mantra sAram
nIyE vAzhvilen jIvAdhAram nI aruLvAi sumukhA OmkAra

Meenalochani · Post by **Meenalochani** » 26 Feb 2016, 03:54

Rsachi,

Thanks for your reply with Sanskrit connection. I knew that I would get a reply from you. I have seen your posts and you are very knowledgeable and give meaningful replies.

rshankar,

Your reply pertains more from a Tamilian point of view. As you have mentioned in Tamil script there is no difference. I have to follow others who have sung the song.I like the song Tiruvadi Sharanam very much and it is easier to sing as Tiruvadi sharanam rather than Tiruvadi charanam.

Lakshman,

I really admire how you were able to pick the song Gajavadana Karuna sadana as a perfect example for charanam and sharan am occurring in the lyrics. I would like to know how it would be if the lyrics are written in Tamil.

Thank you all three of you for your informative replies.

One final question. What are sharanam and charanam equivalent in Telegu and Kannada languages? Are they interpretated differently?

Thanks once again.

Meenalochani

aaaaabbbbb · Post by **aaaaabbbbb** » 26 Feb 2016, 05:37

As pointed in earler posts,

in kannaDa and telugu,

the words SharaNam and caraNam / caraNam

have the same meaning as in Sanskrit and tamil.

surrender, feet.

.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Feb 2016, 05:56

I asked my good friend who is a weekend Sanskrit teacher. He says he uses the extended tamil alphabet in his classes- saraswati ஸ, shAnti ஶ, and Shunmukham ஷ and leaving the native alphabet 'ச' for the cha sound and its contextual variations. I think that is more or less the agreed upon thing among those who use the extended alphabet.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 26 Feb 2016, 06:59

Some books use a different Tamil character for sha. I have problems pasting it here. I will send it to you.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 26 Feb 2016, 07:36

A minor point of number: charanam is foot, not feet.
In Totakashtakam we have:
हृदये कलये विमलं चरणं भव शङ्कर देशिक मे शरणम्

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 26 Feb 2016, 09:33

Lakshman wrote:Here is another example of the two words occuring in the same line (anupallavi):
gajavadana karuNA. rAgA: shrIranjani. Adi tALA. Papanasham Shivan.

P: gajavadana karuNA sadana shankara bAlA lambOdara sundara
A: ajanamarEndranum munivarum paNi pankaja caraNam sharaNam sharaNam shrI
C: nIyE mUvulagirk-kAdhAram nIyE shivakAma mantra sAram
nIyE vAzhvilen jIvAdhAram nI aruLvAi sumukhA OmkAra

In this song, we sing the anupallavi as
'pankaja charaNA
charaNam sharaNam'
That also makes sense.
The first one is in 'sambhOdanam' , calling out to the Lord as the one with the lotus feet.
The second one means '(your) foot' is my refuge(sharaNam)

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Feb 2016, 10:07

Meenalochani,
In Kannada we write, say, and mean exactly whats intended: Sharanam or Charanam. Distinction ia always maintained.
Karnataka produced a whole group of saints and followers:" Veera saivas". Those saints are called Shiva-sharanas. Famous ones are Basavanna and Akkamahadevi.

Now in tOTakAShtaka, it is said charanam (ekavachana). In ViShNuShatpadi it is said charanau (dvivachana). This is interesting.

Generally when we refer to charanam, padam, bhujam, nayanam, karnam, the organs existing in pairs, the intention is to refer to both even when saying the singular. Examples: Nayanam madhuram. Karacharanakrutam va...
In rare cases, for reasons of prosody or for emphasis, dvivachana is employed. Both are correct, I feel.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 26 Feb 2016, 11:19

KaracharaNakritam is a compound word and charaNa even in plural will form that combination, I think.
Mathurashtakam goes with prosody, prAsam, etc. adharm maduram nayane madhuru may not go well perhaps. It also uses pAdau madurau. It may be poetic licence. (prosody may be the reason for slipping from grammar, not for following grammar).
In Venkatesa prapatthi, the grammar is maintained: Srivenkatesacharanau saranam prapadye.
In Tamizh thiruvadi adaikkalam will be the proper way, and there will be no pronunciation problem. It is the use of Samskritham words that causes the problem. Many Tamizh people (Sanjay included) do not pronounce saranam, sankara correctly, they pronounce it as in Sathyam. That is because the variations of sa-cha are alien to Tamizh.
An interesting combination of these sounds may be found in :तस्थुशश्च (सूर्य उपस्थानं); स चचालसश्चासु (सुन्दरकाण्डं).

cheens · Post by **cheens** » 26 Feb 2016, 11:34

In Tamil does the actual word "Sharan" indicate surrender? The words for surrender are always tagged with a verb. Like "Sharan Adaithal" or "Sharan Puguthal" etc. So whether it is Sharan or Charan in tamil, it should mean the "feet". Nothing to do with the act of surrender, I think.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 26 Feb 2016, 11:36

Saran pukunthaan can only mean sought refuge, cannot mean entered the feet, can it?
Also, thiruvadi saranam cannot be like shop-kadai (saying the same word in two languages).

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 26 Feb 2016, 12:31

cheens wrote:In Tamil does the actual word "Sharan" indicate surrender? The words for surrender are always tagged with a verb. Like "Sharan Adaithal" or "Sharan Puguthal" etc. So whether it is Sharan or Charan in tamil, it should mean the "feet". Nothing to do with the act of surrender, I think.

You have a point here 'cheens' . While in Sanskrit the distinction is clear - 'charanam' being physical and 'sharanam' being
verb(act of surrender), it is not so in Tamil. As both are written with same alphabets in tamil, it takes a contextual turn.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Feb 2016, 12:50

pugundEn here means: (wanting to become one with).

Though tamizh cha or sa do not indicate the differences, in English, we can make the differences known. VK's friend's using the old letter helps in tamizh writing.

As for transliteration, though some of you, my friends

are not keen on differentiating between the hard Ra and soft ra in writing, I still like that. Yes, you don't hear the differences clearly, but there is a slight difference in sound: DKP is a good source to listen to. aRam, muRai, tiRan, vaRumai, and then-- varam, vari, siram, maram...

Coming to cha, sa, Sa and sha, I see it this way. Even for us who do not know the rules, it makes sense to say:cheDi, sari, SarIram, ushA
-- -- -- --
Then again, Sol (chol) is a

sol sounds bad, by the way...

I have heard some younger singers use sha in place of Sa (as in Siva, SyAmalA)

Mea culpa, or not?
My one song begins like this: Solla Solla inithiDumE (here, chollach cholla sounded right and the other, wimpy

).

And, the impact of a line can decide it as well.cholla cholla inithiDumE, amudan nAmam (vAchaspati). If only someone posts the line here!

Chellappa,
Do you mean, summA summA varugumO sugam (Sanjay's) as opposed to SummA SummA?

Again, when a few youngsters sing it as shummA shummA...that's not at all my cup of tea

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Feb 2016, 12:53

Purist,
Our posts crossed...I loved your 'contextual turn' in tamizh. That's exactly what I was trying to explain, I think...

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 26 Feb 2016, 13:50

From V S Apte Dictionary :

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 26 Feb 2016, 14:48

Arasi, I am not referring to ambiguity in Tamizh words like sol or summa, but Samskritham words where the 'sa' is different in Sathayam from Sankara or saranam. Most people do not pronounce correctly. Sanjay is top class in Tamizh uccharippu.

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 26 Feb 2016, 18:12

The most famous example is in Dikshitar's 'mAnasa guru guha rUpam bhajarE'.

natvA srI guru charaNam
kritvA nAmasmaraNam
jitvA mOhAvaraNam
matvA tvadEka sharaNam

"I bow at the guru's feet (charaNam), I repeat his name thus conquering my karma and for me he is my only refuge (sharaNam)

A funny take on this is that in a biography of Dikshitar (probably in Kallidaikurichi Sundaram Iyer's book), it is given that, when Dikshitar composed his first song, 'srI nAthAdi' in mAyAmALavagauLa, his brothers asked him why he stopped with composing just one charanam, whereas other composers have not stopped with one charanam to which the composer replied with the above in his second composition. This shows the total ignorance of language of the biographer. So funny and ridiculous too. What has 'matvA tvadEka sharaNam 'got to do with the charanam of a song? People even in those days did not stop to think and understand the lyrics and preferred to put their foot in their mouth.

Meenalochani · Post by **Meenalochani** » 26 Feb 2016, 18:47

I looked at the line Pankaja Charanam Sharanam Sharanam" in the lyrics for the song "Gajavadana Karuna Sadane (a great pick by Lakshman) as came with these thoughts:

When the lyrics are written in languages other than Tamil, then we can see them as Charanam ans Sharanam. What if they are written in Tamil and how someone who only knows to read in Tamil use them? I have not checked the Tamil version of Papanasam Sivan lyrics (composer of the song) for this issue. What I did was check on youtube how the performing artists have sung this popular song. These are my findings.

MSS version - cannot clearly make out Charanam or Sharanam

Sudha Raghunathan version - she sings as Charanam Charanam Charanam

A dance version by Anju Nair -- very beautiful dancw where she clearly shows the foot for Charanam and bowing down when she dances for Sharanam Sharanam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qriC9ORBglY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Z5ZpAf7lM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhhmIt8acs

Meenalochani

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 26 Feb 2016, 19:51

Ilistened to MS.
Her pronunciation appears to me to be on the dot.
In ..sa(स)dana.. sa(श)nkara bala.. su(स)ndara, the uccharippu is precise.
In pankaja charana cha is as it should be. saranam both times is as श as intended by Sivan I presume.
Sa(स)dasi(श)vam mama would not have let go if it was not correct!
Actually, one can listen to MS reciting Vishnusahasranamam and perfect the pronunciation.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Feb 2016, 00:37

I am now curious about one thing about the population at large. I know broad swaths of Tamil speakers get the three 'sa's wrong ( for reasons we have discussed here ) but what about the general population whose mother tongue is Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam or Hindi with respect to the 'Siva' Sa? I find that sa to be too subtle for most people (masses) to not even bother but that is just my guess, so would like to know. Not just for the word 'siva' but wherever that specific 'sa' is used.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Feb 2016, 03:05

arasi wrote: Again, when a few youngsters sing it as shummA shummA...that's not at all my cup of tea

Certainly cummA would not be in anyone's cup of tea, especially since it means a kiss in Hindi...

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 27 Feb 2016, 06:19

Not worth putting too fine a point! Some laxity exists across languages to allow Sa and even Sha to replace sa and vice versa. That is NOT in writing but in only pronouncing the letters.
Pronouncing Sha vs Sa requires careful training as given by good Sanskrit teachers.

Examples of popular changes: nartana saala Telugu movie. The famous north Indian namaSkAr! In Sanskrit itself, both vasiShTa and vaSiShTa are allowed.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 27 Feb 2016, 07:06

I have not paid attention to how non-Tamizh south Indians pronounce, but in the north, they appear to care. When I would say Shimla (षिमला) they would try to correct me to शिमला.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 27 Feb 2016, 07:31

I know north is a misnomer as people from each state west, central and north are grouped as north indians, they pronounce a word differently, like south Indians IMHO.

Aditto · Post by **Aditto** » 27 Feb 2016, 10:48

Meenalochani wrote: MSS version - cannot clearly make out Charanam or Sharanam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qriC9ORBglY

MS sings Pankaja Charaana Saranam Saranam (Sharanam)

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 27 Feb 2016, 17:49

SLightly off topic, still North Indian men in Southern states file complaint against women for stealing ‘h’ from their names

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 27 Feb 2016, 22:07

Some story, Mahes--I mean, Mahesh!

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 27 Feb 2016, 22:33

For these and other similar fine differences, among contemporary artistes, listen to Gayathri Girish. Her enunciation is abundantly clear and is also precise and accurate for the context.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 27 Feb 2016, 23:36

Hilarious, MaheshS!!!

Other association members such as Sankar, Sravan, Sailendra, Sridhar, Sivakumar, and Sasi, who used to be known by Shankar, Shravan, Shailendra, Shridhar and Shashi in happier days, had similar stories. Some have had it worse. For example, Shashikumar, has suffered a double whammy, losing both his ‘h’ and turning into Sasikumar. Shashank Sharma is inconsolable after being robbed of all three ‘h’, and now being known as Sasank Sarma.

The story, however, doesn’t end here. These men allege that it is the women who are stealing the ‘h’ from their names.

“Tell me from where does the ‘h’ in Kavitha, Latha, Seetha, Lalitha, and Shruthi come from?” asks Shankar.

“Back in UP and Delhi, I have only known names like Ekta, Geeta, Arati, Neeta, and Aditi. Now how come they are suddenly Ektha, Geetha, Arathi, Neetha, and Adhithi in this part of India?” asks Shailendra.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 28 Feb 2016, 00:43

Many tamilians usually write kandha when it should be kanda but the don't write Indhu when the name is Indu.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 28 Feb 2016, 07:12

Interesting twist to the topic; let us get back to charanam sharanam - sharaNAgata vatsala rAmA sArvabhaumA

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 28 Feb 2016, 07:20

In the south the ladies care for 'h' (husband) like SavitHri!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Feb 2016, 07:43

Quite funny..

I guess from now on I will have to call those cars Thatha Shumo, Thatha Shafari Shtorme.. Oh, I almost missed it.. The new one, Thatha Exa

Was any 'h' stolen from the name of the author - Saket Kalikar ? That would have been quite funny if it is indeed so

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Feb 2016, 08:14

Do you know there is a powerful brand of kitchenware called Gandhimathi Enterprises?

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 28 Feb 2016, 08:50

Will North choose to write- Gandimati Enterpises- dealers in ktcenware?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Feb 2016, 09:24

No sir, they will say "Pappu Rasoiwaala"

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 28 Feb 2016, 16:04

Post 35: If கந்தா is from स्कन्ध, then kandha follows the unwritten convention of transliterating Samskritham words by Tamizh people.
As for Indu, it is इन्दु, and not इन्धु; hence the convention is followed.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 28 Feb 2016, 20:50

kvchellappa wrote:Post 35: If கந்தா is from स्कन्ध.

AFAIK, in sanskRt, it is skanda and not skandha- Rajani/Keerthi/Smt. Savitri - please clarify....

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Feb 2016, 23:27

I think "educated" Kannadigas get the श ष स right MOST of the time. Some vernacular vocabulary described as "apabhramsha" would take liberties but then it is not mispronunciation. The main advantage is the Kannada script which follows Sanskrit closely. A whole lot of Sanskrit books are typeset and studied in Kannada script for ease of dissemination. But that does not lead to pronunciation lapses.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Feb 2016, 00:07

Sachi, got it. My interaction with Kannadigas is quite skewed, mostly those who come to Kannada Koottas and they are culturally quite sensitive and I hear them pronounce sanskrit words very well. Also, they take pride in the fact that Kannada has a lot of words from Sanskrit. (and in light hearted manner I give a few of them that I know well a hard time that they don't want to acknowledge the overlap with Tamil and that I can actually understand quite a bit of what they say if I pay close attention

).

I asked a few Telugu friends of mine and I will put them in the 'careless' lot. They were not dismissive but readily conceded they may not be correct all the time. They are educated ( as in masters and phd ) but casual about matters that we discuss here. On the other hand, a telugu lady who is part of the temple cultural programs, she is pretty good with all that and quite particular about them too.

>Some vernacular vocabulary described as "apabhramsha" would take liberties but then it is not mispronunciation.

Is it related to 'tatsama' vs 'tadbhava' distinction?

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 29 Feb 2016, 01:32

Many years ago, a lady in our neighbourhood, who we used to call MaNi, got engaged and the marriage date was quite near. Around the same time, in a Tamilian household in the same locality, a baby boy was born, and we had all gone to their house to see the baby. A maami used to lord it over the others in their family and ran the household with an iron fist. MaNi was also there that day.

They hadn't yet named the baby, so naturally one of the ladies asked "What name will you give him?"

To which, the matriarch's daughter-in-law answered in her Madras Tamil accent, "Manigandan". Now, in Kannada, "ganda" means husband, and this led to uproarious laughter, with the aforesaid MaNi being the target of it.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 29 Feb 2016, 07:16

Sri Lakshman and Sri rshankar, I stand corrected.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Feb 2016, 07:35

VKM,
apabhraMza is a derogatory word unlike tadbhava!

And about maNiganDan, with the pun on ganDan, I have always felt that the word ganDa in Kannada for husband sometimes connects with gaNDa in Samskrita meaning "danger". So!

Otherwise comes from ganDu=man....

aaaaabbbbb · Post by **aaaaabbbbb** » 29 Feb 2016, 07:56

rshankar jI,

*skandha*:: is the region from the neck to the shoulder joint.

regards.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Feb 2016, 10:22

Thanks Sachi. I get the difference now.

I read up on a few Wikipedia links on Tatsama, Tadbhava and also the tadbhava words in Tamil . Let me include those links here in case it is useful to others
Tadbhava ( import and change to suite the phonology of the importing language ): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadbhava
Tatsama (import and use as is ) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatsama
Loanwords in Tamil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Arya ... s_in_Tamil

The third link is interesting. It lists the loan words and for tadbhava how that is changed in Tamil. Some of the categories are what we have been discussing here. So when critiquing artists' pronunciation of sanskrit loan words in Tamil compositions, we need to be careful if they are tadbhava words before labeling them as mispronunciations. It applies to songs in other languages also as per their own tadbhavas .

I think that article can use some enhancement, it looks a bit lean.
----

This leads me to a question. Is pasu (cow) a tadbhava word in Tamil. When I hear it in the original sanskrit 'pashu' it is a bit jarring since mostly we all say it as 'pasu' as in 'pasu mADu'