How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

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rshankar
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How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by rshankar »

Here is a clip from the recently concluded Natya Kala Conference (2016) convened by the lovely Dr. Srinidhi Chidambaram (who kept the proceedings moving smoothly, without turning the attention to herself as a dancer) where Smt. Rama demonstrates a couple of pieces on keeping the art relevant without diluting it. I found Dr. Srinidhi's comments introducing Smt. Rama's demosntration extremely pertinent, and relevant to music as well. I think we have discussed this aspect of CM under various topics - how to keep it relevant to today's day and age, and how to engage audiences, and do all this without diluting the classicism.

Rsachi
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Rsachi »

Ravi,
I love Bharatanatyam, Odissi, and Kathakali and Kathak, in that order. In another thread someone asked for the raga of a YT clip of a bhajan danced to by an Odissi and Bharatanatyam dancer pair. I loved the Bharatanatyam dancer.
Why I say this is that the format of a Kalakshetra production of Bharatanatyam or a Nrityagram Odissi, to my mind, has a huge integrity of design: language, music, mime, movement and costume. Either because of resource constraints (NRIs often dance to available YT clips and music without the least connect with that dance idiom in the music's origination), or in an effort to make it popular, the integrity is lost. And then of course the masterly choreography and the collaborative genius between the musician and dancer is too much to even think about. Words like access and reach and connect all are a part of this new ethos of making things relevant and contemporary. But anyday, give me the true core, the original, the integrated art form of purity.
Kathakali & Mohiniyattom perhaps preserves all this at its best. The only problem there is my attention deficit beyond 30 min. :D

I also list in order of decreasing offensiveness the following "for the sake of reach" dilution elements:
1. Musical genre picked up from anywhere like YT, having no ethos common to the dance form eg a Rahman item of Sufiana for a varnam
2. Strange reverb and such effects added to the track for cinematic impact
3. Use of electronic percussion or keyboard etc
4. Stretching ideas and themes to connect contemporary issues to the dance, eg showing the global warming video footage as a backdrop to Shiva consuming haalahala...
5. Having two or more genres of music and dance creating "con" fusion on stage...

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Did you all notice the tempo-rubatos of Douglas Knight to a slowwwww! tAyE yasoda by Aniruddha Knight? Just doing meetu and emphatic toppi! Anda kai kiDaipadu kaShTam - pazhaiya kai - ( that is an old hand difficult to get).

What happened to Arkay's youtube account ? - all are gone!! - cyber rasikas don't have a peek now into a major slice of CM world!

Nick H
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote:What happened to Arkay's youtube account ? - all are gone!! - cyber rasikas don't have a peek now into a major slice of CM world!
Was not aware of this. Indeed it is an important thing. I've taken the liberty of starting a new thread where we can discuss it, as it is not only off-topic here, but unlikely to be noticed by many.

What happened to Arkay YouTube Account?

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

OK Sorry NickH will do that.
Rsachi wrote: 4. Stretching ideas and themes to connect contemporary issues to the dance, eg showing the global warming video footage as a backdrop to Shiva consuming haalahala...
During Q&A the issue of bouncer ball play between Mom and Kid ( Smt. Rama and her Daughter) was brought up for a Sangam poem - were bouncer balls prevalent then? - to which the artiste replied she is dancing in 2016 while the poem may be old. I think that was sensible to do that to connect. The question was reminiscent of the telephone pole in Swati Tirunal movie - but both things are not same. Dancer here used her artistic leverage within limits - judgement call.
Rsachi wrote: 5. Having two or more genres of music and dance creating "con" fusion on stage...
I think we can have Greek mythology characters - but in the genre of Bharata nAtyam - create a confluence of mythology and itihAs - it may not fly - but dancers can research to see if there are possibilities - to pass it off as fictional material. It will show the difference between the two!

Things that were jarring were when Smt Rama used the term Museum, facing giants like Padma Subramanyams in the audience, who have visited many a temple to do research on postures. If they are not willing to get into these distinctions for the fear of reprisal from intellectual class, at least they can avoid these terms that are oxymorons - their own artful existence is the very anti-thesis of Museums!

Of course it can be used it to connect to Western Audience ( not definitely for the North Indian ones) - because after all we are a museum for them - living or banished!

rshankar
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by rshankar »

shankarank wrote:Did you all notice the tempo-rubatos of Douglas Knight to a slowwwww! tAyE yasoda by Aniruddha Knight? Just doing meetu and emphatic toppi! Anda kai kiDaipadu kaShTam - pazhaiya kai - ( that is an old hand difficult to get).
Was this part of the clip I posted? I do not remember seeing it...

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Well not really - but that was also Bharata nATyam?? (or no? ;) ) - in a different venue - Arkay I mean.

rajeshnat
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by rajeshnat »

Ravi and Rsachi
In general this post is bit more directed to you as you both have rasanai in music and dance . The crowd for finearts is the same X , that gets apportioned between music, drama and dance . Certainly dance always finishes last . Roughly week back when I went to SKGS to hear thoppur sairam in mini hall , there was a prime bharatanatyam performance going on in SKGS main. Surely not much takers there .

I was running my mind that there is no steady stream of aggregate of rasikas who like dance and who talk . These lecdems by srinidhi . I heard part of rama speaking , but there is a lot of inertia for rasikas to express . I wish people like you are invited to speak in the same podium as those artists.

Did you all read this malavikka sarukkkai fanta fabulous write up in The Hindu . Her opinions on javalis are so well resonating with me . Also the last question where she refers to ecology of dance enthusiasts.

http://www.thehindu.com/entertainment/d ... 992744.ece

Rsachi
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Rsachi »

Rajesh,
Thank you for flagging that great interview. It reveals a wonderfully evolved master dancer. I have loved Malavika Sarukkai's dance for a long time. I find her to be a remarkable "being" who simply glows in her dance. Her ideas, choreography, and music, all come together so brilliantly in her themes that eschew the routine list of dance items you see from so many. And I have always watched her dance solo. She also danced some time ago with Aruna Sairam singing live on stage, sitting centre stage.

I also witnessed a distant niece from Chicago recently in a Bharatanatyam presentation in Bangalore, to a full house, of course mostly relatives and friends, who had come together to witness the rare artistic endeavour of a techie NRI lady who took interest in dance at age 35, and was good enough to give a great performance at 42. I found her so talented. If she had trained under someone like Sarukkai, she would have been one of the top 10 dancers of India by now.

I suspect I give too much weightage* to the music used in any dance. All my comments earlier reflect that. After all, my knowledge of dance is even less than the meagre knowledge I have of music. But ignorance has never come in the way of my enjoyment :)
*weightage is red flagged as a typical Indian English term by Google!

sureshvv
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

I think we have a much bigger problem which is to keep today's audience (society as a whole) relevant to bharatanaatyam.

sureshvv
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

Rsachi wrote:Rajesh,
Thank you for flagging that great interview.
Amen! Some great lines in the interview, such as:
Seduction is simple — showing the walk, the fragrance of ether, parading full breasted glory, pre-bath rituals, wet hair — getting lost in one’s own body. What is so difficult? After Bhakti, this is nothing.

Nick H
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Nick H »

What is the popularity of dance? There is certainly plenty of it going on at this time in the city. I am not an enthusiast, so my theory is formed from an unreasonably small sample, but I had the feeling that it was at least as well attended as music, and by a much younger audience.

Am I completely wrong?

Rsachi
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Rsachi »

Nick, AFAIK, dance and music have similar challenged in attracting audiences. Dance is far more glamorous, and in terms of economics and effort can be likened to golf if you compare a Nada Inbam music concert to tennis ball street cricket.

rshankar
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by rshankar »

Rajesh,
Thank you for that interview with nATya kalA AcArya, Ms. Malavika Sarukkai, who is as eloquently expressive with words as she is with her dancing. Reading the piece brought to mind tuning forks and a resonance column apparatus in a high school physics lab: her words resonated perfectly with me - way better than the results of those experiments decades ago.

Another point you made about asking the rasika of today what he/she is interested in watching is probably a good thing - rather than depending on the voices of a few dance critics who bring their own ingrained biases into play in each and every word they write/type/dictate. If dance, or for that matter, any art form, wants to stay relevant, they need to understand what the audience wants - not just what they interpret based on critiques. Once they understand that, I'm sure they'll be able to figure out how to provide it without compromising the classical beauty of the form. I guess what I'm saying is that the process of "market research" using the correct "market sample" should not be shortchanged.

The "market" for the dévadāsi and rājadāsi dancers appreciated SRngāra, and their supply met that demand. It may not be relevant in today's world and the perceived public morality of society.

I also think that "one size fits all" approaches don't work in this context as well. Just as we use pharmacogenomics to segment patient populations, I'm sure there are some socio-demographic factors that can be used to segment the market for arts too - so that presentations are tailored for the audience.

For example, the sangam piece performed by Smt. Rama will not have the same impact on a totally western audience, who are for the most part cool with their teenaged daughters dating, being sexually active, and letting 'go' - but it will resonate with NRI audiences who are not yet totally "integrated" into the society they live in.
Last edited by rshankar on 08 Jan 2017, 00:45, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Ok I get that dévadāsi and rājadāsi are obsolete! The Rajas became vassals and finally could never provide for these women. We have lost continuity for that aspect to organically modify and blend - also stolen by other media. As soon as a question comes up about the art serving only elite - Smt. Rama gets defensive and says she has gone to schools, villages etc.

But we have replacements for those guys! A civilization's work does not stop!

Have they thought about invading the spaces like Military training academies? USAID sends all country , pop, rock stars to perform across the world for their troops!

Rsachi, VGV - have you guys when you were in service ever visited by any traditional artistes of any kind dance, music? Secular is the issue? Our art is not anything remotely the kind that would fit in? Only Shahrukh khan and his Bhangara?

Don't we want to think of themes that may be relevant to them. They are away from family on duty! May be Javalis would make sense ;) How do we given them an idea what they are defending? What about coming up with themes expressing the travails of their families? Can't Sanskriti extend itself to these? Our sanskritic literature ( in all vernaculars) people should read world literature and use it to contemporize our heritage!

There should be women serving in non-combat roles - could we teach them dance moves - in the fashion of Yoga?

We are spending good money on Defence eating into education budget - many of them retiring from service with juice left into civil society. We could get some leverage out of that during peace time. Should we not be educating them humanities and culture to be thought leaders?. We could get some mentally tough women to motivate next gen women implanted back into society. They could be questioning cultural ills without being a left wing activist - but from a nationalistic perspective. We have Mallika Sarabhais talking on the other side. It is one thing to criticize cultural traditions as the cause of evils, but we need to find ways to pay for it to fix it.

India is feminine in character - what is good for Women at any time should be the ultimate position of culture! Let them determine where their freedom ends and ours begins. We can then debate that.

What about diplomatic corps and the IFS training academies? Don't we want to impress them young? We took artistes to Indo-Russian cultural exchanges ( TMK cites this to prove pre-eminence of our traditional arts in our polity!) - but we took them as museum piece kits to use as soft power. We got some goodies - power plants etc. in return. The Junior officer and even the ambassador will have no clue ( not about the art form but) about anything vaguely cultural about it ( TMK's vague culture hypothesis) . The persons down the hierarchy guarding them from behind will never relate to them!

These are people facing up to aggressive diplomatic maneuvers by world powers - will need a sense of who we are - with sanskritic input one of several diverse cultural inputs! We only see the cultural parade on Jan 26th - and it looks like a show of aestheticization of power playing straight into the books of Marxist scholars who never looked at Marches in North Korea in the same light!

What about our bureaucracy? We only want them to come on their own volition in their free time? Why not in their workspaces? Our elders thought of them as hapless but really running the government. While the not so educated politicians don't know anything apparently. These officers only mugged the Romila Thapar history to get into service ( I know this is sweeping - but figuratively I am not that wrong) and know the lakshana of the government ( Government rules). The politician knows the lakshya ( including whats needed to win next elections) - but to some extent he does have to show something real as well.

We have an entire power structure to feed cultural inputs. But we have people going straight to the downtrodden and apologizing - the surest way to get NGO money feeding into it and media attention from leftist media which gets its Ad money also from somewhere.

We should be more thoughtful and use arts to kindle metaphors / analogies in various streams of thought. Scientists still use language to think - even if art has nothing to do with science – it can play a role in thinking about things.

We need to implant artists into think tanks and public policy. Not just activism that chides even charity as condescending - but wants everything as Entitlements using constitutional guarantees as a ruse!

Only thing I have remotely seen like this is SPIC-MACAY - with Smt. Sudharani Raghupati drawing protons and electrons out of Cosmic Nataraja on her presentation slide and laughed at by the IITians. We have this scienferiority complex.

And I remember the question as well - why does the dancer move her head side to side on the neck?

And how long IITM took to rename Mardi-Gras to Sarang!

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

I did not listen to this part when I wrote the above! I was put off at her talking about program notes @ New York and London jaunts and venues.

https://youtu.be/ZrsvEyIoRFk?t=9051

Not heard all the story yet - but the funding story was telling - where our bureaucracy is on cultural vagueness. !

Rsachi
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Rsachi »

Shankarank,
It is a bit early in the day and the sleep hasn't left me completely, but I think the following summarises your post:
We have an entire power structure to feed cultural inputs. But we have people going straight to the downtrodden and apologizing - the surest way to get NGO money feeding into it and media attention from leftist media which gets its Ad money also from somewhere.
We should be more thoughtful and use arts to kindle metaphors / analogies in various streams of thought. Scientists still use language to think - even if art has nothing to do with science – it can play a role in thinking about things.
You have mentioned me in the post. So let me try and share my experience.

People in the army and exclusive campuses working on engineering/research etc. (BARC,ISRO, Railways, Steel Authority, etc.) do get exposure several times a year to fine arts. Radio and TV fill the rest of the gap.

I have seen how army children are ferried in trucks to schools and other places where they attend classes. Almost every battalion has a local bhajan mandali of the soldiers who pray regularly at the army shrine. I think religious prayer, festivals and music/dance is the core of what all Indians consider culture. At a more administrative level, the chiefs are fully aware that soldiers should not feel alienated from their families and festivals and therefore give them all "positive" inputs on these aspects regularly. Of course, these people do not have as much access or interest in all our cultural and artistic content that say we at rasikas.org have.

I think some famous musicians and dancers married "faujis" and helped spread interest in fine arts in army campuses. I can't give examples right away but I do know this.

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Well as regards religious and stuff I am not surprised! When you mention Bhajans, yes Ram's name ( I mean the letter and sound ) is bigger than Ram - so that in a sense introduces a connection.

But in India some people who call themselves non-believers ( is there such a thing as believing ?) - like the black shirt wearers in TN still pay respects to their parents! karuppu chaTTai kAranum appan ammaiyai kumbiDuvAnAm - a chess coach told me before we started the lessons with a prayer. And they may still not call their parents/parents-in-law by their names!

As in tirukkuraL by Thiruvalluvar even if Adi - Bhagavan are interpreted as his parents - starting with the first consonant ka - not just in collation even from physical position from swAdhiShTAna upwards - ( remember "kA"di vidya as Sri vidya from Diskhitars first kriti) comes from Mother to child! a"ka"ra mutala ezhutellAm !!

Gratitude starts from there. In fact the entire cultural body of thought can be constructed from that!

Look at the what is being said here about ThirukkuraL : https://youtu.be/2sF71PDPgAc?t=310 - total subversion!

If a soldier does not revere his parents also : but he is willing to put his life on the line - then it is the Chomskian mercenary army - the Constitution itself is on shaky grounds!

Western and middle eastern armys are driven on their religious theologies - they are covered!
Rsachi wrote:Of course, these people do not have as much access or interest in all our cultural and artistic content that say we at rasikas.org have.
When Lec Dems like this take place for example in IIT during the then Mardi-Gras - the hall was packed and I don't think the attendees seek the art form avidly otherwise. It is a curiosity play! This is culture ministry's job and the authorities job on how to contextually shock and awe the service men. Requires field work by the content providers as well to provide attractive content with narratives. It doesn't have to be Siva tAnDavam!

If the show can be put to use to procure a refurbished Admiral Gorshkov - then it is fit enough to be presented to those that operate it!
Last edited by shankarank on 09 Jan 2017, 11:27, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

A dancer ( of this glorious tradition ) is not able to face up to a New York Slimes schmuck critic on this question of sacredness?? https://youtu.be/ZrsvEyIoRFk?t=9264 After Guru-SiShya - then what?? she asks - What can one say? This is smug rasa or shmuck rasa?

Spirituality I can understand that is something more - but do we even know how to discuss God? If we don't we should not get into it - but we should be able to defend our idea of the sacred. One could respond with : I have not seen God. Have you? But I know why my dance is sacred.

A more controversial response that should shatter them will be : Have you heard of Goddesses? :evil: :twisted:

We cannot take on Abrahamic prejudices masquerading as secular art connoisseur-ship with a proper response on sacredness and still provide entertainment unbounded without smugness?

Why do they do salangai pUja? Can a salangai be god?

They all know these things in their bones - every mudhra, every adavu and every asaivu. They just don't have the diplomat-speak and some courage to weave the right words against right people!!

And their future depends now on New York Slimes critic??? Oh Ram!!!
Last edited by shankarank on 10 Jan 2017, 02:16, edited 1 time in total.

Rsachi
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Rsachi »

Gratitude starts from there. In fact the entire cultural body of thought can be constructed from that!
100% agree.

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

I continued listening to Smt. Anita Ratnam's presentation on Salem Witch hunt and Chile. Events like that had happened in the past within our country as well - within Indian Culture as well as the Chilean type events also from outside. That we don't have museums for either especially the latter tells us, we are not a museum culture.

We can re-create ourselves in subtle ways if our underpinnings remain.

Chilean type epochs are the continuation of what happened in that region 16th century onwards in a different form aided and abetted by the new world powers. If we don't understand the underpinnings of that - we will become a museum culture - I mean culture in a museum!

if she can relate to those and do a presentation there , then our Govt. should have enough to fund something to enact a similar thing for us.

May be this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjFR0uFKjZU - to be enacted in Arunachal border ;) .

I could be hearing Oooo, Oooo from forumites!! :lol:

They all talk like there is a pan-artiste solidarity movement like the pan-leftist or something that cuts across all boundaries. Is this the loka-dharmi that she is pleading for? or just kalA-dharmi? What about dESa dharmi also? :evil:

Is Dalai Lama a "God"man ?? ;)

My mom used to recall a teasing poem : dalai lAma nI ingE varalAma ( Dalai Lama why you are here kind of a thing..) Thats how much our general populace new our nearest neighbor then!

I really like the quotes from Guru Granta Sahib - better than the Qurbani music once posted in this forum! :lol:

sureshvv
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: - then it is the Chomskian mercenary army -
Is there some standard agreed upon definition of this adjective you are so fond of?
Is it name dropping? Is it a cuss word?
Or, like Humpty Dumpty, do you use it to mean whatever it is that you want to at any moment? :)

Nick H
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Nick H »

Would it be the Abrahamic Chomsky? It's another favourite word of shankarank's that I find hard to understand in context.

Is it a synonym for Western? Or does it indeed relate to the subtle influences that the customary religions of our land have on us, whether we subscribe to them or not. This is a tough job to unravel, especially if that influence (or influences: it covers at least three major religions and a huge area of the world housing many cultures) is viewed through the lens of yet another religion.

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Why did you guys leave out Romila Thapar? - I drop her name too!
sureshvv wrote:
shankarank wrote: - then it is the Chomskian mercenary army -
Is there some standard agreed upon definition of this adjective you are so fond of?
Is it name dropping? Is it a cuss word?
Or, like Humpty Dumpty, do you use it to mean whatever it is that you want to at any moment? :)

I remember you posted a video of Chomsky talking about nations and boundaries in the lounge forum. You listened to it? I did not listen to it - thinking I might know what is in it - since I have read Chomsky somewhat for a time passer!

For Chomsky - the most important intellectual alive as per New York Times , most quoted after The Bible and Shakespeare, the letters we consider as divine, are dead rat meat under a microscope.

Once I called TMK as a some kind of Marxist and the forum went into a tizzy - TMK tweeted a Romila Thapar article where she asks "do they know what Marxist means? Have they read?"

Have you all guys have read enough of the western literature to understand what TMK is saying here? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaGF7mE2tZY

It seems we need a new hitherto unknown hermeneutics alien to Indian culture to understand this! If you guys have mastered all of that can you dissect what he says? I could zero in on a few - culture as a control mechanism.. Ram or his shoes etc.? But then he calls the constitution a cultural document - does he mean by culture the vague culture that most of Indians relate to? Can we then conclude it is a vague document? So he calls the people of his state - those Tamil Guys and the Sanskrit group- so he is what guy - English guy? I myself have to listen to it once more to see if I have evolved from then on to get more clarity :evil: Its been a long time!

I think I owe myself to listen to Chomsky once again - especially nations and borders thing that was posted in the forum. We can then get into what he means by mercenary army!

Nick H
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Nick H »

Disclosure/admission: I have heard a lot of people talking about Chomsky, but actually reading him remains unticked on my to-do list. Abrahamic religions remain on my to-not-do[-again] list.

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Nick H wrote:Would it be the Abrahamic Chomsky? It's another favourite word of shankarank's that I find hard to understand in context.

Is it a synonym for Western? Or does it indeed relate to the subtle influences that the customary religions of our land have on us, whether we subscribe to them or not. This is a tough job to unravel, especially if that influence (or influences: it covers at least three major religions and a huge area of the world housing many cultures) is viewed through the lens of yet another religion.
NickH, your query was more respectful than Suresh's and hence I owe you a respectful answer. I don't know your religious identity or if you are a cosmopolitan world citizen that adopted Chennai as a home etc etc. - does not matter for this conversation.

When I mean Abrahamic - I mean the concept of God as an external entity outside of the world that governs the world and after Judaism , Christianity improvised ( I should rather say replaced with intent to purge the older) further , with the definition of original sin - that all of humans are sinners waiting to be saved and so on. This "God" conceptualization many people consider conceptualized as male - but there are revisionist attempts also, especially in Islam to define it as formless etc.

The separation in terms of secular happened precisely because of some inherent issues felt by many in this - I believe.

This is played against Indian context by arguing that the concept of Divinity is varied here in India - i.e. like everybody here in India is not the puritannical monist etc. But there are encodings of a more general/or should I say nuanced idea of that in various forms.

The Guru - Sishya tradition itself would be problematic at that point. How can I have a reverential relationship with another sinner?

Smt. Anita Ratnam's speech - she blirts out - mAta , pitA, Google deivam - and the tone implies the immense stressful fight against concept of Divinity encoded in Indian culture.

Gopalakrishna Gandhi on his tirukkuraL exposition here: https://youtu.be/2sF71PDPgAc?t=310 feels that tension too - to maneuver around the reverence of G.U. Pope - he tries to triangulate by rejecting: falling at ones feet, Indian idea of devotion and tries to derive a new semantic of human respect etc.

There is a formal term for this: Difference Anxiety!

So a working definition of Abrahamic we could use here is as I have laid out above. The Indian version of divinity is encoded in the name of our beloved RSachi - Sachidanand, I figure his full name is.

But you will have to read some thinkers - you can call me the mouth piece of one such - whose name would send this forum into a tizzy again. I am surprised that nobody taunted me with that question! But I get taunted name dropping Chomsky however. For the fear of giving the former publicity??
Last edited by shankarank on 10 Jan 2017, 22:51, edited 2 times in total.

sureshvv
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: Have you all guys have read enough of the western literature to understand what TMK is saying here? :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaGF7mE2tZY
Worst TMK speech I have seen. He is as almost as incoherent as you in this video. No disrespect intended.
May just be my limitation.

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:
shankarank wrote: Have you all guys have read enough of the western literature to understand what TMK is saying here? :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaGF7mE2tZY
Worst TMK speech I have seen. He is as almost as incoherent as you in this video. No disrespect intended.
May just be my limitation.
OK then why don't you provide your coherent version.

Coherence is a long ordeal - something that your requested of me long back. Buddha mentions of contexts - how many there are - almost as many as grains of sand in the river Ganga.

That is why I adopted to use different threads as things come up to discuss the same. And we may have crossed - hope you read my reply to NickH.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote:
OK then why don't you provide your coherent version.
Out of every 10 sentences, I can make sense only of 1. And that 1 sentence sounds both incorrect and wrong headed.

So I don't think I could come up with a coherent version. Best I can do is come up with a bunch of incorrect and wrong headed statements hidden inside 90% nonsense.
hope you read my reply to NickH.
I did. Which is why i had to make it clear that I am not intending any disrespect. If you point out the sentence where you perceived it, I will be happy to correct it.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Then please stay off - and leave me to express what I need to, to others who may find it useful.

Nick H
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Nick H »

NickH, your query was more respectful than Suresh's and hence I owe you a respectful answer.
Thank you, although I'm sure (already answered anyway) that Suresh was not being disrespectful.

The concept of original sin is one of the things that I have no time for in those religions. I married into a Christian family here in India (karma? :lol:) and refuse to go to christenings because, to me, the idea of casting a devil out a babe that has had no time to do anything wrong to anybody is sick. Actually, I almost prefer their satan to their god anyway! :twisted:

And I see no superiority, as claimed by them, in monotheism.

I regard Judaism as being one of the world's ancient religions. You won't find any sympathy for christianity in me. Some of my thoughts might make a VHP hardliner blush. Except that I would never harm or wish harm on another human person because of their belief. However, back in 1987, I read a book which opened my eyes to the depth of Christian influence on my society, whether we subscribe to it or not. It was a feminist work, but it taught me about a lot more than just gender discrimination.

I have plenty of room for contradiction in my life. I accept it, and no longer break my head trying to resolve it (which might be just laziness) or trying to tell religious people what they are right or wrong about --- and in the end it might turn out that it was me that was wrong all along anyway. I am an atheist, but I am not a materialist (that is a contradiction that defies many) and I believe in the human soul. It is more than enough divine for me.

But, if I go to dance (which I don't much: I'm a music person), then I expect to see some stories. I'm not too concerned about which stories they are. If it has to be something biblical as an alternative to that dice game which I have seen just too many times then I don't mind.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Well then you should not have a problem or concern with me calling a New York times critic a schmuck with Abrahamic prejudices ( which is fine ) , which they won't admit ( that is the issue) , not respecting the fact that a dancer from a certain genre may have a sense of divinity or sacredness about her art, that in fact may not hold back anything regarding technique or expression on the actual stage - if the dancer has introspected enough about it.

When such a critic does not do a homework on something that she may criticize on a newspaper that affects/harms the human in the dancer in material ways - then do they deserve my respect?

You mentioning VHP - and not harming other humans - I sense something there - should I treat it as dis-respectful - or should I ignore it ? You pick!

Because Suresh was not sure!

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Nick H »

You should probably ignore that: I picked some initials that some would associate with somewhat extremist views.
you should not have a problem or concern with me calling a New York times critic a schmuck with Abrahamic prejudices ( which is fine )
OK: I don't.
which they won't admit ( that is the issue)
Knowing one's prejudices is a big deal; admitting them is an even bigger one

shankarank
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

rshankar wrote: For example, the sangam piece performed by Smt. Rama will not have the same impact on a totally western audience, who are for the most part cool with their teenaged daughters dating, being sexually active, and letting 'go' - but it will resonate with NRI audiences who are not yet totally "integrated" into the society they live in.
Children of Indian origin have married across cultures for many decades and it still continues. With more prevalence of Indians the possibility of marriage within the culture is more.

But there is lot of anxiety regarding this obviously - that is our own doing!

Our Swamijis and philosophers who jet-setted around the world did not mainstream the Hindu religion as identity to Americans. The sense of belonging to a group is important to Americans- whilst we in India may not even think of a religious identity that way , many times shy of calling ourselves Hindus.

There was the instance of a Swamiji not knowing the difference between Judaism and Christianity - and when a Jewish boy who had sabbatical to Rishikesh came back home impressed and asked the Swamiji to ordain him into Hinduism - or give him a chant - the Swamiji asked him to recite "Om Jesus".

All of them are more interested in the claims of Universality of our tradition to the whole world and how all things are same than bringing out differences.

if they had understood this properly - they could have converted a million Americans to be Hindus. So Children of Indian origin have that opportunity to marry within a culture of acceptance of their heritage.

I have met a man named Uma Shankar Iyer - who claimed he had been ordained into Apastamba tradition by a Sastri in India. He displayed authentic Indian appearance with three Vibhuti stripes etc.

I have also seen a middle aged Indian Lady bring her Euro-American husband to a temple asking how he could convert to Hinduism - the husband had a small stripe of Vibhuti on his forehead. I myself was not having Vibhuti on my forehead and was going to participate in a recitation.

So things like that happen. If our Children are at least given the right grounding - irrespective of how their wedded life proceeds - they may at least keep a spec of our heritage and possibly create syncretic cultures.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

There is a huge Tamizh diaspora effort to create a Tamizh chair @ Harvard. I myself donated a little because the person collecting was so proud - I did not want to offend him. But this may lead to ill conceived studies dividing people into Dravidians and others - when genetic studies have not shown any such division.

Also no telling how the devotional works will be handled and interpreted - with what Lens.

The idea seems to be Sanskrit has a chair - why not Tamizh. They don't realize the intention behind the Sanskrit chair and how it operates - it was not setup by Indians. It is mainly to study us with a different lens and has caused lot of misinterpretations and damage.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

Smt. Alarmel Valli's speech : https://youtu.be/rjdSzDhqpOg?t=2226 She describes an organic dancer - not a synthetic one.

What she says at 38:50 on wards regarding originality is a big problem even in American academia - where they are observing that students are affected by online access material and suffering in creativity and they get reinforcing stimuli of same things.

I myself affected by a certain thinker - but then I have experiences that resonated with that thinking.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

She talks about Cadence ( a new word that I learnt today!) : https://youtu.be/rjdSzDhqpOg?t=2906 in response to a question on Shakespeare and BharatanAtyam. I believe we have a word that is equivalent: Chandas - and much more encompassing: Sanskriti. It is disappointing that such words are not in our vocabulary.

How would paiyyada padam fit into the word Sanskriti one may ask. We have come to think of Sanskrit as only having prayer Slokas!

What a contrast between Smt AlarmEl Valli's presentation and Dr Padma Subramanyam that followed? Fascinating.

If we think back in Ancient terms - Alarmel Valli - whatever her vazhi is called - the mArgam - looks like the lost tradition of Satyavati - Veda VyAsA's Mother and also the Sangam tradition of love and poetry. Both Villi Bharatam and Rajaji's Bharatam do not talk bout how Veda vyAsa was born and certainly not about how Dritirashtra, Pandu and Vidura were born.

Whilst Dr Padma represents vEda vyAsa tradition something we all believe was actually lost in dance tradition and revived in 20th Century.

Vishnu Sahasranama pUrvAnga Sloka records him as parasarAtmajam vandE Suka tAtam tapO nidhim.
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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

As regards many great Tamizh and Sanskrit works - they begin with the references to ulagam or viSvam ( the world/universe) - pointed out by TNS on his Gita Govindam harikatha.

Vishnu SaharanAma : viswam viShnuR
Periya PuraNam
tirukkuRal
Our own Dikshitar in Sri nAthadi guruguhO - nAna prapanca vicitra karo in anu pallavi, also mAya maya viSvAdhiShTAnO in caraNam

I don't have the verse from gIta govindam itself that he mentioned - whether it is the first ashTapadi or somewhere in dhyAna Slokam - or the jaya jagadISa haRE.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote:Then please stay off - and leave me to express what I need to, to others who may find it useful.
I try my best. It is only when you go on these wild diatribes dragging in the names of many public personalities who spring to your mind that I myself feel the "need" to stop and request you to clarify your thoughts.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

If I am doing 90% nonsense and wild diatribes - why waste time seeking clarification? Also when I asked you to cohere , you don't have to do it on my material, you can come up with your own. All I see is Ad Hominem attacks in the garb of seeking clarification.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote:If I am doing 90% nonsense and wild diatribes - why waste time seeking clarification? Also when I asked you to cohere , you don't have to do it on my material, you can come up with your own. All I see is Ad Hominem attacks in the garb of seeking clarification.
I think you misread. "90% nonsense" was pertaining to that single TMK video. You touch upon several points but don't stick to any long enough to make a single cogent argument. When you try to pull in other personalities into the context and I am unsure as to how they fit into your argument, I request you to clarify.

For eg., I asked you in what sense you have been using "Chomskian" and if that characterization is your own or shared by others. You are yet to answer that rather simple and straight question.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:For eg., I asked you in what sense you have been using "Chomskian" and if that characterization is your own or shared by others. You are yet to answer that rather simple and straight question.
People use - ian suffix with great personalities commonly. Chomsky was brought in by N. Ram into the Mecca of music - the Music Academy - as a venue - not a MA event I suppose - but still he was there in a physical sense. He gave a great speech - I did remember reading a transcript. There were reports of intense discussions in the corridors post that speech. I don't know if any of our artistes, musicians or dancers who are well read on Western classics ( both in terms of the language - I mean English - as well the content - the culture and its contexts ) ever cared to attend.

He had also spoken to all the Left forums in India. So I gather he is well read by those scholars. So in that sense I presume the term Chomskian is shared!

But here we are with one of the artistes speaking a similar language. Others seem to have taken the outlines of the arguments - that we sidelined the original practitioners of music. We have sidelined content not seen as Bhakti oriented. We have brought in Sanskrit and Sankritised everything. And suddenly we see a rush to include all those things we have sidelined and react.

We have to do more than that. We have to be reading the original source - as we have been challenged with "Have they read?"

We will be tempted to ask: what does this all have do with Carnatic music and Bharata nATyam? The answer is there in Smt. Anita Ratnam's presentation. The dance conferences are organized in the west not by dancers , but by scholars and thinkers - the content providers - not the technique executors. Akin to how the coaches are more of significance in American football than the players. Or if you want a corporate example: at&t is vying to acquire Time Warner. at&t ( I use small case as that is the correct one now) has the cables and the distribution mechanisms and the technology - but it needs content - new content.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote:I think you misread. "90% nonsense" was pertaining to that single TMK video

sureshvv wrote:He is as almost as incoherent as you in this video


Since you lumped me with him earlier, I thought all of it applied to me as well - lump and attack technique :?
sureshvv wrote:You are yet to answer that rather simple and straight question


So I had to ensure you made your question straight and simple first.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

shankarank wrote:The dance conferences are organized in the west not by dancers , but by scholars and thinkers - the content providers - not the technique executors
To expand on that - we heard from Smt. Anita Ratnam in her presentation that the crowd which is there in Mount Batten Mani's kitchen and Zakir's Upanyasam is not there here in concerts or dance.

That is the scholar's work that is waiting to happen. If scholars in India don't do the work to expand the themes and improvise on puraNa and other heritage as well us deal with contemporary themes - scholars in the west will provide the content instead.

The kids born to NRIs have started doing Women's empowerment dance dramas based on the story of Amba in Maharabharta - and I suppose the content provider is Githa Hariharan - the feminist writer. We have to see if the theme takes an unfair view against the whole Sanskriti.

We can create new Smriti/purANic themes emphasizing the new outlook without compromising on what we can accept from heritage.
There was also the mention of Chennai as a software hub and how outreach is needed. Related to that I also heard from some of my friends that they felt not fitting in the traditional urbanized agraharams - where parents of NRIs left to themselves are residing and all you see is their sorry state of affairs every time you step out of your apartment.

The venues also have to move to the where the new demographics as well! Don't the sponsors and banners need to appeal to the right demographic?

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

I also appeal to professional artistes of Guru parampara tradition not to use the word Hindu Mythology - as the word Myth has so many negative connotations - especially on first usage negates the various types of truths in the itihAsa. It is better to refer to them as itihAsa and puraNa and leave the interpretation to traditional scholars.

This is not argue that these are literally believed to be true in the sense of archaeologically proven history. None of the Abrahamic traditional texts are ever considered Mythology.

Shakespeare's works - the mythology there refers to mythical references he used from Greek mythology. But then nobody ever says his literary imaginations are myths.

Using the word mythology for itihAsa also inadvertently subscribes us to the history centric construction of Abrahamic religions as truth.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

sureshvv wrote:I think you misread. "90% nonsense" was pertaining to that single TMK video

sureshvv wrote:He is as almost as incoherent as you in this video

shankarank wrote: Since you lumped me with him earlier, I thought all of it applied to me as well - lump and attack technique :?
Incoherent =/= (not equal to) 90% nonsense. Incoherent is when one is unable to articulate the intended point in a clear and lucid manner.

Now that I have compared you and TMK, here I will attempt to contrast your styles. Hopefully this will unruffle some feathers.

Your sentences individually make sense. But there is no clear transition from one line of thought to the next. The whole post appears like a well shuffled pack of cards dropped on the unsuspecting reader.

TMK, on the other hand, does not even appear to have a point in this particular video. He is so focused on his nuanced self referential thoughts that he labors on the nuance without ever getting to the point to be made. So it mostly appears like some pseudo intellectual self gratification.
sureshvv wrote:You are yet to answer that rather simple and straight question


Your last answer to this question (Whew! That was like pulling teeth) seemed to suggest that you are using "Chomskian" to mean "leftist". That is woefully inadequate and is just scratching the surface. I would recommend "The Chomsky Reader" for a full 3 dimensional perspective.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by Nick H »

shankarank wrote:Shakespeare's works - the mythology there refers to mythical references he used from Greek mythology. But then nobody ever says his literary imaginations are myths.
I am no scholar, but I think you ought to think about the word "fiction." Whilst Shakespeare's works are classified as "comedy," "history," etc, nobody reads Shakespeare to study English, or any other, history. Not does anybody elevate them to the standing of "mythology."
Using the word mythology for itihAsa also inadvertently subscribes us to the history centric construction of Abrahamic religions as truth.
I don't know what you mean by history-centric. Or what use there is in speaking about the different Old-Testament-related religions as a monolith.

You might have observed, and probably experienced, that people in a given culture grow up with the idea that the prevalent religion is, using the word loosely, "truth." Differences in comparative religion and the mindsets that they encourage might be interesting, and, no doubt is a subject of study to researchers, but the setting of one religion against another is a futile exercise. I am not saying that you are doing this, but I am reminded, in this context, of some of the "discourse" stuff that I have heard in India, where the speaker, no doubt deeply knowledgeable about his texts, makes comments about "western culture" which are completely rubbish. Worse: the one I have in mind made equivalents comments about his own culture that were equally ridiculous outside the context of a tourist brochure.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by sureshvv »

shankarank wrote: I also appeal to professional artistes of Guru parampara tradition not to use the word Hindu Mythology - as the word Myth has so many negative connotations -
It has some very positive connotations too. Check out Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth".

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

We have to consider it in light of how it is played in the dominant discourse - to understand the usage of it and in what sense it is used against Hindus.

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Re: How to keep bharatanATyam relevant to today's audience

Post by shankarank »

sureshvv wrote: Your last answer to this question (Whew! That was like pulling teeth) seemed to suggest that you are using "Chomskian" to mean "leftist". That is woefully inadequate and is just scratching the surface. I would recommend "The Chomsky Reader" for a full 3 dimensional perspective.
I am not claiming here that I understand Chomsky in all his dimensions. But I have read quite a bit. I only said his general welcoming audience all belong to what is considered as the Left. Never labelled him directly leftist. He himself prefers different labels like Anarchic (in its classical sense) Socialist etc or sometimes tries to reject labels etc.

But in the context of nation states and armies - I have read his characterization of armies as mercenary. So If I had to use Leftist I would have used that why would I coin a term Chomskian?

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