Kaanchi periyavaal and Carnatic music

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 09 Oct 2006, 02:21

I dedicate this topic to the great sage of Kanchi

I recall reading an article in Sruti magazine a few years ago about the immense knowledge that Kaanchi Periyavaal (Chandrasekhara Saraswati) had in Carnatic music. The following article provides a glimpse into his deep understanding.

The article in its entirety can be found here:
http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ ... slated.htm

Excerpt 1:
"Why I called you is, I long have had a desire to listen to 'ShrI SubrahmanyAya namasthE' rendered perfectly. On hearing you are around, the desire has re-surfaced. Perfect rendition means both the music and the lyrics (sangItham and sAhityam). Many people disfigure the words of Sanskrit and Telugu kirtanas to the extent that we wish they never sang.

"The music part (swarAs), the rhythm part and the 'sAhitya chandas' - what is called 'chandam' in Tamil - would be given for most songs.

The proper way to split and combine words would also be given. The musician has to take care to synchronize the music, rhythm and chandas and split and combine the words correctly so as not to spoil the meaning. The compositions of good composers definitely allow this (padham pirichu pAdaradhu) but many musicians simply concentrate on the music and rhythm, and ignore the meaning, sometimes leading to ridiculous meanings! "Even in this song 'ShrI SubrahmanyAya namasthE', we have a line 'guruguhAyAgnAna dwAnta savithrE'. This must be split as 'guruguhAya agnAna dwAnta savithrE' i.e. 'the one who is the sun for the darkness of ignorance'. Some sing it as 'guruguhAyA.......

gnana dwAnta savitrE', ' one who is the sun for the darkness of knowledge'! "I do not know if you sing the kriti 'SankarAchAryam' (Sri Subbarama Sastri's Sankarabharanam kriti), but Veena Dhanamma's family, Semmangudi Seenu, MS sing this. There is a line 'paramAdvaita sthApana leelam' - means 'one who so easily, like a game, founded the great Advaita philosophy' - it is to be sung with stress on the 'A' of 'Advaita' (Paramacharya sings this line) to give the intended meaning. If we really cared, we can, even without proper training, sing with proper meaning. Those I mentioned above also sing properly.

But those who do not care, stretch the 'paramAAAA' and then sing 'dwaita sthApana leelam', converting the Advaita Acharya to Dwaita Acharya! (laughs heartily for a long time) "No doubt, in music, there is no Dvaita - Advaita difference. Only music is important. And music makes the mind of the singer into unison with the song - the protagonist of the song. That is why, 'ShrI SubrahmanyAya namasthE' is attached to you - a Vaishnavite - or you are attached to it! I have heard you sing that song. I do not have to say anything about your musical ability; and the sahitya part too you do correctly. Which is why I have called you here.

Excerpt 2:
Paramacharya further tells Ariyakkudi and the gathering at large, "I'm happy to see that you, coming from a good guru-sishya parampara, are preserving good music. You must also bring up good disciples and keep the tradition going. A Brahmin, having learnt Veda, has a compulsory duty to teach atleast one more person (athyApanam). This can apply to other sastras and arts too.

"One more point about musicians. You should sing the Telugu and Sanskrit kirtanas fully aware of their meaning. It is not fair to say that Tamil songs alone are enough. Great composers in this country have created hundreds of Telugu and Sanskrit songs of much musical and lyrical beauty. If we ignore them, the loss is ours. Do not defend by saying, 'I do not understand them!' - if only we desire, do we not spend time and energy on all sorts of useless things? If musicians dedicate themselves to pure music and proper rendition of words without losing the 'osandha artha visEsham', language can not be a barrier. Now that you are #1 in the music world, do your best towards this. May Subrahmanya's Grace be with you in this endeavor." Ariyakkudi was totally moved. He took leave saying," This has been the best day in my life".

And Paramacharya went back to his penance the next moment.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 09 Oct 2006, 02:26

Jayaram, please see these two topics

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=6844#p6844
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=17604#p17604

Next time someone gives this stuff again, I will surely include this thread also with the above 2

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 09 Oct 2006, 02:29

The tyranny of topics!

:)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Oct 2006, 04:40

For those of you who have watched (some of you in reruns) the tv program The Laugh In, the catch phrase 'sock it to me' comes to mind! Tyranny of this, tyranny of that and what next??!! Hope someone is not itching to start another of those

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 15 Dec 2006, 11:27

Another instance which gives an insight into the mastery of H.H. was when some rasika told H.H. that the ragamalika in olden days used to be sung in beautiful rags like Kedaragaula and the present day musicians sing useless(according to that Rasika) hindustani rgas like Desh.H.H replied that though he did not know the nuances ,he heard that the scales of Desh and Kedaragaula were one and the same.Only the way they are sung make it appear that they were different ragas.The rasika hummed and was stunned to concur with H.H.

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 15 Dec 2006, 12:42

>> H.H replied that though he did not know the nuances ,he heard that the scales of Desh and Kedaragaula were one and the same

I am glad that "H.H" had the dignity to confess to his ignorance of music. While I woudn't go so far as to call desh a "useless" raga, is there any comparison to kedaragowla? I mean the ragas aren't even similar. Thats like saying Kalyani and Shankarabaranam are "close" ragas because they have similar scales. The key word here is "gamakam."

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Dec 2006, 13:34

Why even evaluate KG against Desh? I love both ragas and until this past year I did not even realize they were related or allied ragas. ( pakkuva vAchAra - thiruppugazh, set to Desh by Delhi Raghavan was the one that attracted me to Desh long time back, and I know a few traditionlists who do not quite warm up to this version ). They give off different rasas. H.H. knew exactly what he was talking about, despite his own disclaimer. That is the best way to explain it. This is indeed a prototype example to illustrate that ragas are not about scales.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Dec 2006, 15:08

Well said, VK...

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 15 Dec 2006, 19:13

Sruti had a special issue on Kanchi periyavaal, a few years ago. An interesting anecdote mentioned how Lalgudi went to perform before him, and when one of his violin strings broke, HH told him he could play a particular ragam that didn't require the basic note of that string. And Lalgudi was amazed by his musical knowledge.

I can't recall all the details, but if someone here has that issue (I think it was in the mid-90s) or remembers the details, perhaps they can let us know.

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 15 Dec 2006, 20:23

rasam wrote:>> H.H replied that though he did not know the nuances ,he heard that the scales of Desh and Kedaragaula were one and the same

I am glad that "H.H" had the dignity to confess to his ignorance of music. While I woudn't go so far as to call desh a "useless" raga, is there any comparison to kedaragowla? I mean the ragas aren't even similar. Thats like saying Kalyani and Shankarabaranam are "close" ragas because they have similar scales. The key word here is "gamakam."

How else will H.H.react other than being dignity and humility personified?

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 16 Dec 2006, 04:13

>> Why even evaluate KG against Desh?

Nobody is comparing KG and Desh (apart from the unnamed 'rasika' in the conversation with HH who thinks that Desh is a useless raga vis-a-vis KG). My point is that HH mentioning that KG and Desh are similar displays his ignorance of music rather than his knowledge. The ragas are not similar in the least bit.

>> he heard that the scales of Desh and Kedaragaula were one and the same

This is WRONG! Desh has a very distinctive N3 which should never occur in KG.

>> H.H. knew exactly what he was talking about, despite his own disclaimer. That is the best way to explain it. This is indeed a prototype example to illustrate that ragas are not about scales.

Please! Lets not crown HH as a great musicologist based on his wrong comparison of dissimilar ragams.

Finally, if I conveyed the impression that I think KG is a 'better' ragam than Desh, this cannot be further from the truth. Desh is a beautiful ragam, elaborated in detail in many Hindustani concerts. That CM does not treat it as a 'heavy' ragam does not make it 'useless'.

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 16 Dec 2006, 04:45

jayaram wrote:Sruti had a special issue on Kanchi periyavaal, a few years ago. An interesting anecdote mentioned how Lalgudi went to perform before him, and when one of his violin strings broke, HH told him he could play a particular ragam that didn't require the basic note of that string. And Lalgudi was amazed by his musical knowledge.

I can't recall all the details, but if someone here has that issue (I think it was in the mid-90s) or remembers the details, perhaps they can let us know.

Another misguided example ... When you break a string on a violin, it does not affect your ability to play certain ragams, rather it affects your ability to play certain octaves ... For example, if you break the pa string, then you cannnot play anything beyond pa in the middle octave on that string (you can still play upto a certain extent depending on your skill on the sa string itself). You can still play all ragams in a lower octave using the other strings. Or you can retune the instrument so that the other strings are an octave higher and still play all ragams in which case you may not be able to play in lower octaves w.r.t to the original tuning.

Sometimes I wonder if these anecdotes are true or are just exaggerated rumors spread by fanatics in order to make it seem as if these religious leaders are more than what they are.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Dec 2006, 04:57

Well, if you are going to get into that level of technicality, aren't there ragas that reside prodominantly in a limited octave range?

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 16 Dec 2006, 05:00

Which ones? Isn't the concept of sruthi in CM relative, or am I missing something?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Dec 2006, 05:44

vasanthakokilam wrote:Well, if you are going to get into that level of technicality, aren't there ragas that reside prodominantly in a limited octave range?

As rasam said, it very much depends on the skill of the player + on the specific string that actually broke

For eg - If you break the first string from the left (mandra sthAyi shaDja), even a novice can manage that

For other strings, it is the skill that matters.

And as vasantakokilam observed, If the 1st string from right (madhya panchama) broke, you can start playing the likes of nAdanAmakriya and janjhUTi - after retuning mandra panchama

-Ramakriya

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 16 Dec 2006, 06:33

Ramakriya, why should you be restricted to the likes of nAdanAmakriya and janjhUTi if the first string from the right broke? And what would you retune mandra panchamam to?

>>An interesting anecdote mentioned how Lalgudi went to perform before him, and when one of his violin strings broke, HH told him he could play a particular ragam that didn't require the basic note of that string

Anyways, I hope my point is clear: breaking a string will have not have too great an impact in terms of what ragas an artist like LGJ can play ...

Speaking of skill, MSG is purported to have played the entire kalyani ata thala varnam on ONE string! I guess he must have used the rightmost string or must have used a 'non-standard' tuning to achieve this. (Of course, this incredible feat is again legend, and subject to exaggeration, but I am willing to believe this one given what MSG can do with the violin

)

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Dec 2006, 06:43

rasam wrote:Ramakriya, why should you be restricted to the likes of nAdanAmakriya and janjhUTi if the first string from the right broke? And what would you retune mandra panchamam to?

rasam.

I wasn't very clear - This solution is only for novices like myself

Real violinists

don't need this solution.

Normally when you play a rAga in madhyamashruti, the sa-pa-sa-pa tuning of the 4 strings changes to pa-sa-pa-sa ; If the madhyasthayi panchama is broken anyway, all you need to do is make the mandra panchama to mandra (shuddha)madhyama -which will give you sa-ma-sa -> which is exacty same as pa-sa-pa

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 16 Dec 2006, 06:44

rasam wrote:Anyways, I hope my point is clear: breaking a string will have not have too great an impact in terms of what ragas an artist like LGJ can play ...

Of course

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Dec 2006, 07:01

The ragas I had in mind was same as what ramakriya mentioned. All nit-picking aside, the anecdote quoted just illustrates that H.H. was more than just a casual rasika, he knew some of the technicalities. That is all one can read from that, not as the greatest musicologist ever or an expert critic. Whether that is a big deal or not depends on where each one comes from. From what I have read from other sources, H.H. had quite a breadth of knowledge on a wide variety of subject matter with reasonble depth and an expert on quite a few of them that mattered to him most.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 16 Dec 2006, 07:18

I still can't remember all the details of that article, but I assume it must have been one of the middle strings, as a result of which the violinst cannot slide thru the various notes on that string as he moves between 'male' and 'female' parts of the violin. Which is when Periyavaal is supposed to have suggested he play a ragam that didn't require that note.

I find that people with two-bit knowledge show off their arrogance (and often ignorance), while great souls like HH with immense knowledge are known for their humility and moderation.

And last time I checked, Sruti was not run by religious fanatics. (Music fanatics perhaps, but certainly not religious ones, esp when it was under the editorship of Shri Pattabhiraman.)

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 16 Dec 2006, 07:28

>> I recall reading an article in Sruti magazine a few years ago about the immense knowledge that Kaanchi Periyavaal (Chandrasekhara Saraswati) had in Carnatic music

>> Another instance which gives an insight into the mastery of H.H. was when ...

>>H.H. knew exactly what he was talking about

>> And Lalgudi was amazed by his musical knowledge.

I am sorry, but the above quotes from different people on this thread dont come off as being an attempt to show that HH was just more than a 'casual rasika'.

Consider this: if someone on this forum had gone on the technical section and stated that desh is similar to kedaragowla, I'd imagine the reaction to be totally different

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 16 Dec 2006, 07:35

>> I still can't remember all the details of that article, but I assume it must have been one of the middle strings, as a result of which the violinst cannot slide thru the various notes on that string as he moves between 'male' and 'female' parts of the violin. Which is when Periyavaal is supposed to have suggested he play a ragam that didn't require that note.

This makes absolutely no sense. Clearly, you have never played the violin.

>> I find that people with two-bit knowledge show off their arrogance (and often ignorance), while great souls like HH with immense knowledge are known for their humility and moderation.

I am going to give the implication of this statement the contempt that it deserves by not responding to it.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 16 Dec 2006, 09:46

rasam,

I wonder if these these anecdotes are true or are just exaggerated rumors spread by fanatics in order to make it seem as if these religious leaders are more than what they are.

The whole discussion is taking an ugly turn.
I beg to state that Kanchi Mahaswami was not a 'religious leader' in the sense it is understood now-a-days. He was a sage, the kind of whom the Bharat Varsha is blessed only once in a while.
The statements imputed to persons like him may or may not be exaggerated or may be even untrue. But let us not denigrate him by clubbing him as 'these' religious leaders'. Let us choose words correctly.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 16 Dec 2006, 15:42

>> And Lalgudi was amazed by his musical knowledge.

I am sorry, but the above quotes from different people on this thread dont come off as being an attempt to show that HH was just more than a 'casual rasika'.

Rasam, not sure why you say the above. Are you saying that Lalgudi being impressed by HH's musical knowledge is not good enough for you?

By the way, your harsh style does not make for pleasant reading. As vgvindan says, you can choose words with more care. Thank you.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 16 Dec 2006, 15:47

this is precisely what was felt by me. Paramacharya was an unique saint and a great fountain of knowledge. restraint is required while referring to him atleast.

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 16 Dec 2006, 20:17

H.H. was not expected to be a musicologist and those who had interacted with him would know the insight he had into various branches of knowledge.You cannot credit him to talk with the authority of an expert,but we only wonder at the way he used to grasp the finer points in any subject by posing searching questions to the visitors.Anyway if a person for reasons best known wants to talk disparagingly it is their lookout

rasam wrote:>> I recall reading an article in Sruti magazine a few years ago about the immense knowledge that Kaanchi Periyavaal (Chandrasekhara Saraswati) had in Carnatic music

>> Another instance which gives an insight into the mastery of H.H. was when ...

>>H.H. knew exactly what he was talking about

>> And Lalgudi was amazed by his musical knowledge.

I am sorry, but the above quotes from different people on this thread dont come off as being an attempt to show that HH was just more than a 'casual rasika'.

Consider this: if someone on this forum had gone on the technical section and stated that desh is similar to kedaragowla, I'd imagine the reaction to be totally different

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 17 Dec 2006, 03:03

First of all, contrary to what all of you have assumed, I have nothing against HH. I am myself a Hindu and consider my time too precious to be one of those obsessed, anti-whatever-you-call-it folks who waste their time casting aspersions on promininent religious personalities on public fora such as these.

Secondly, you can call HH a religious leader, saint, sage, wise man, and any number of other monikers, depending upon how religious you are and how much you respect him: it make absolutely no difference to me. If the phrase "religious leader" has negative connotations in modern usage, please take consolation in the fact that I never used the term with ulterior motives in mind.

Thirdly, (correct me if I am wrong), I thought this thread was about the musical capabilities of HH. Being a forum for CM, and seeing a thread named "Kaanchi periyavaal and Carnatic music", you can hardly blame me for not thinking otherwise

Working from this assumption and reading the different anecdotes (which I assume were illustrative examples of his music acumen), I merely pointed out that the examples are hardly illustrative of his musical knowledge. Allow me to reiterate:

1. The "Subramanyaya namsathe" example just exhibits his knowledge of sanskrit sahitya. This has nothing to do with music. Indeed, one would be surprised if a Hindu religious saint like him didn't understand the lyrics.

2. The Desh-Kedaragowla example again does not demonstrate anything: it just shows he had some idea about notes (which, again, is not surprising given the musical environment people of his generation grew up in, especially with CM being deeply steeped in religion). In addition, the fact that Desh and Kedaragowla are very dissimilar only shows his musical knowledge in poor light.

3. The violin example is just plain misguided (for lack of a better word). For those of you who have played the instrument, you will know exactly what I am talking about.

Frankly, while there have been innumerable comments (and even personal insults) about my supposedly callous writing and irreverent attitude, I find it quite amusing that very few have actually analysed the anecdotes or replied to my take on them. But then again, religion cloudes reasoning.

Finally, from a more general perspective, there is no doubt that anecdotes and legends are greatly exaggerated and are a result of 'hero-worship'. More often than not, people take everyday incidents and spice them up to be something out of the ordinary and then pass these around as legend, without pausing to understand if it actually makes sense.

I feel I have made my position abundantly clear, hence I will not waste my time and post on the topic again.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Dec 2006, 06:36

I feel I have made my position abundantly clear

Probably so, but you have just restated what you have already stated without acknowledging some of the other posters' points in this context. If you are going to summarize, it would have been good if you showed if even a little bit of other people's thoughts on this appealed to you. But then if that is really zero, then you are in the clear.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 17 Dec 2006, 08:36

rasam has given any public performances in violin any where? very eager to listen to his music......

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 17 Dec 2006, 11:06

In Tarka shastra,three types of debates are mentioned.One is vaada where parties try to understand the truth,another is Jalpa where one party tries to establish he is right and the third is called Vidandaa where one party tries only to prove the other is wrong.This happens almost in all spheres of life.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Dec 2006, 04:27

Rasam wrote:
Consider this: if someone on this forum had gone on the technical section and stated that desh is similar to kedaragowla, I'd imagine the reaction to be totally different

In the Desh old thread, there is a little bit of discussion on the scale relationship between Kedara Gowla and Desh as demonstrated by Neyveli Santhanagopalan

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=232

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 18 Dec 2006, 16:02

Also Santhanagopalan also mentioned this episode concerning H.H in his TV program telecast on Jaya TV.Also H.H never said they were same.He only mentioned they had same scales

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Rasam wrote:
Consider this: if someone on this forum had gone on the technical section and stated that desh is similar to kedaragowla, I'd imagine the reaction to be totally different
In the Desh old thread, there is a little bit of discussion on the scale relationship between Kedara Gowla and Desh as demonstrated by Neyveli Santhanagopalan

http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=232

hsuvarna · Post by **hsuvarna** » 19 Dec 2006, 10:29

Great men's words never go wrong. An AtmaGnyaani like Sri Paramachaarya knows every thing, by everything, I mean everything. Brainsurgery to macro economics to gentics to music to cooking to house construction. I have seen this. India is about this. We after a mere PhD or mere Maters or a H1B visa, think that we know too much.

Now, if we only can upload those link files again!!.

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 20 Dec 2006, 02:52

I didn't want to post in this thread again, now that its been taken over by religious folks with "arakorai" music knowledge, but here goes:

1. Two ragams are not similiar if they share some notes, especially when we are comparing a quintessential, gamaka rich south indian ragam with a typical north indian one. As a measure of similarity, poornachandrika and janaranjani are similar: one can mistake one for the other. Or, for a north indian example, marwa and puriya. Will you ever come away from concert having mistaken Desh for KG (I guess you could, if you are musically challenged)?

2. Given that they are not similar, lets look at the scales. The scales of Desh and KG are NOT the same!! Desh has liberal N3 usagewhich does not occur in KG.

3. The fact that Neyveli rendered an RTP in those three ragas is just his choice of ragas. If someone sings a twin RTP in Shank'bnm and Kalyani (which differ in exactly one note scalewise and are a world apart gamaka/phrase wise), does it mean anything? Even Surutti and KG have some overlap musically, but Desh and Kedaragowla?

4. Finally, lets get back to what HH said: when the rasika said that people nowdays sing desh and not KG, he replied that the scales are the same. The scales are not the same and ragams are not similiar, so what exactly is the implication? That Desh is a valid substitute for KG? More importantly, does this display his musical acumen?

Please! I am not interested in all your opinions about NRIs, religion, morality and so forth. I can easily stereotype some of you, but thats hardly germane to the current discussion and quite frankly, smacks of immaturity given that you hardly know anything about me.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 20 Dec 2006, 15:14

Hello people, please stick to the topic. No criticisms, criticisms of criticisms and so on. Please discuss only music and not about divinity and capabilities of Shankaracharyas - no judgements please, specially if they are disparaging. The idea is to avoid brawls.

Rasam, please dont accuse anyone of arakorai music knowledge. Please keep such opinions to yourself, else it will provoke others' bad reactions which we dont want to encourage here.

mishram · Post by **mishram** » 21 Dec 2006, 00:12

I agree. This is a rasikas forum - not one of a "mahaanubhavulu's" . Everybody has a right to express their opinions - right or wrong.

Rasam, with due respect to your knowledge, please do not put down other people for expressing their views. We live in a democratic society!

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 21 Dec 2006, 10:38

Rasam,

Speaking of skill, MSG is purported to have played the entire kalyani ata thala varnam on ONE string! I guess he must have used the rightmost string or must have used a 'non-standard' tuning to achieve this. (Of course, this incredible feat is again legend, and subject to exaggeration, but I am willing to believe this one given what MSG can do with the violin )

This involves use of the G string (the string usually tuned to mandra ShaDjam). I believe in such a feat, the G string is tuned to (or intended to be) the mandra pancamam. Since varNams normally span about two octaves from mandra pa to tAra pa, this scheme involves playing two octaves on a single string. (I remember reading that when Yehudi Menuhin heard MSG playing thus, he started referring to Sri MSG as the maestro who played an entire piece on the G string, and whose name also begins with a G.) In the last music season, Sri MS Anantharaman and MA Krishnaswami gave a demonstration of this technique, also commenting on Sri Parur Sundaram Iyer's conception of the idea.

On the issue of (lack of) similarity between Kedaragaula and Desh -- It is true that the currently presented forms of the rAgas are very different in nature, with the kAkali niShAda in the ascent of dEs' on the one hand, and the (kampita and odukkal) gamakas in kEdAragauLa on the other, providing clear-cut and distinctive features for the two rAgas, making us generally doubt of any similarity between them beyond the auDava-sampUrNa scales used as guidelines.

However, I would like to add that evidences of a common origin for these rAgas have been pointed out in some researches and interpretations, which in my opinion we have to respect. I have quoted a portion verbatim, from the article "Karnatic Ragas from a new angle" by Sri KV Ramachandran, a scholar of yesteryears.

__Quote___
Kedaragaula and Desh: Sarngadeva mentions a Raga Desavalagaula, which according to Kallinatha signified Kedaragaula; in the north, it is known as Desh. The oscillating Ni of the south is split into a sharp and flat note in the northern system, as such an oscillation is foreign to that system.
__Unquote__

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 31 Dec 2006, 07:54

I can only sum up that it is a case of rasam being vi-rasam

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 31 Dec 2006, 09:26

Come on, folks! Let's usher in the new year with a lot of rasamAna discussions! virasam doesn't become us...

vsnatarajan · Post by **vsnatarajan** » 01 Jan 2007, 06:06

One thing we do all the time in our life is whenever we hear/experience new things, we docket them in a catagory of what we know already and draw our reactions/conclusions from there. we never give a thought about what we may not know and what dimensions knowledge exists in all its space.
so things are right if it is already proven right scientifically or we know it is right.

Intense and routine Tapas and mantra japa recitation over a long period of life, a Dharmic way of life brings a profound internal change in men/women and bestows upon the brain some rare knowledge and awareness which was hitherto unknown and which most of the times are inexplicable to fellow humans..

people who take up this practice are startled by this experience in the initial stages but become aware of the plays of some other supreme forces.

HH was in that stage and it became normal to people who were with him about this extrodinary supra human traits..

CM and the path of bhakthi is similar and all of us in this forum will reach this stage of enlightment one way or other, sooner or later. Once we start this journey of bhakthi, The divinity takes up as its job to guide us, no matter how far we go astray.

The above writings are based on my personal experiences.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 01 Jan 2007, 10:27

vsn,

CM and the path of bhakthi is similar

Well said; CM bereft of bhakti is just chaff. Those who are advocating and practicising 'contemporary' themes and 'innovations', better keep this mind; otherwise the result is going to be much like the disastrous Tiruvasagam of Ilayaraja - neither bhakti nor music - just cacophony.

tumburu nAradar gAna kELuva hari
nambalAra I Dambakada kUgATA

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 01 Jan 2007, 14:33

sr_iyer wrote:Rasam,

Thanks Mr.Iyer,
H.H. was only pointing out this as I could guess because He used to get info from people of various fields by putting questions to them.It may be known to those who had the good fortune of seeing him in conversation with people from all walks of life.The uniquesness which learned one admired was how a lad of thirteen who ascended the seat of the pontificate without a formal guru could absorb so much in various fields for which he would have had no time as the administrative work of the pontificate would have taken so much of his time.This has been precisely explained by you.

Speaking of skill, MSG is purported to have played the entire kalyani ata thala varnam on ONE string! I guess he must have used the rightmost string or must have used a 'non-standard' tuning to achieve this. (Of course, this incredible feat is again legend, and subject to exaggeration, but I am willing to believe this one given what MSG can do with the violin )
This involves use of the G string (the string usually tuned to mandra ShaDjam). I believe in such a feat, the G string is tuned to (or intended to be) the mandra pancamam. Since varNams normally span about two octaves from mandra pa to tAra pa, this scheme involves playing two octaves on a single string. (I remember reading that when Yehudi Menuhin heard MSG playing thus, he started referring to Sri MSG as the maestro who played an entire piece on the G string, and whose name also begins with a G.) In the last music season, Sri MS Anantharaman and MA Krishnaswami gave a demonstration of this technique, also commenting on Sri Parur Sundaram Iyer's conception of the idea.

On the issue of (lack of) similarity between Kedaragaula and Desh -- It is true that the currently presented forms of the rAgas are very different in nature, with the kAkali niShAda in the ascent of dEs' on the one hand, and the (kampita and odukkal) gamakas in kEdAragauLa on the other, providing clear-cut and distinctive features for the two rAgas, making us generally doubt of any similarity between them beyond the auDava-sampUrNa scales used as guidelines.

However, I would like to add that evidences of a common origin for these rAgas have been pointed out in some researches and interpretations, which in my opinion we have to respect. I have quoted a portion verbatim, from the article "Karnatic Ragas from a new angle" by Sri KV Ramachandran, a scholar of yesteryears.

__Quote___
Kedaragaula and Desh: Sarngadeva mentions a Raga Desavalagaula, which according to Kallinatha signified Kedaragaula; in the north, it is known as Desh. The oscillating Ni of the south is split into a sharp and flat note in the northern system, as such an oscillation is foreign to that system.
__Unquote__

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 01 Jan 2007, 16:11

Thanks to all of you for your excellent input. I feel I have come away from this discussion so much the wiser. Let me narrate the incident that changed my opinion and inspired me to write this.

Yesterday at a concert I was listening to a beautiful kedaragowla sung by a local artist. Then I closed my eyes and meditated upon the unknown ... And guess what, I could hear the unmistakable strains of desh. In that moment, I could instantly relate to what all you vidwans were trying to convince me of on this thread! Then I drifted into the sub-conscious and reflected on the oceans of knowledge that I had yet to sight, the dimensions of spirituality that I was yet to transcend, the peaks of dharma I had to scale ...

Presently, I reconnected with reality and remarked to my friend "Wasn't that kedaragowla simply beautiful? Could you hear the similarity with Desh? I feel so ashamed now that I had that argument with those wonderful people on the forum." My friend looked at me in horror and quietly whispered: "Am I hallucinating or did you just mistake bhairavi for kedaragowla?"

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 01 Jan 2007, 17:59

rasam,
i welcome your subdued tone! this is the greatest thing that has happened in the new year! wish you a very rewarding and colourful new year!

(let me pretend as if i do not understand the sarcasm and sadism!)

rasam · Post by **rasam** » 02 Jan 2007, 01:38

chalanata,

i welcome your subdued tone! this is the greatest thing that has happened in the new year!

Yay! What a miracle! My New Year's resolution indeed was to be more subdued on this forum.

***************End of Sarcasm********************

(some people dont, or pretend not to, understand it

)

sr_iyer,

I forgot to reply to your comments:

On the issue of (lack of) similarity between Kedaragaula and Desh -- It is true that the currently presented forms of the rAgas are very different in nature, with the kAkali niShAda in the ascent of dEs' on the one hand, and the (kampita and odukkal) gamakas in kEdAragauLa on the other, providing clear-cut and distinctive features for the two rAgas, making us generally doubt of any similarity between them beyond the auDava-sampUrNa scales used as guidelines.

Thanks for bringing out the differences between the gamakams of the two ragams distinctly.

__Quote___
Kedaragaula and Desh: Sarngadeva mentions a Raga Desavalagaula, which according to Kallinatha signified Kedaragaula; in the north, it is known as Desh. The oscillating Ni of the south is split into a sharp and flat note in the northern system, as such an oscillation is foreign to that system.
__Unquote__

No personal offense, but I think this is a pretty weak historical interpretation. To say that the "oscillating Ni of the south is split into a sharp and flat note in the northern system" and then concluding that desh is probably the equivalent of kedaragowla sounds a little weak to me. There are scores of south indian ragams (mainly kharaharapriya and harikambhoiji janyas) where the oscillating N2 is used. Do we find equivalents of these ragas with the flat and sharp notes (N3, N2) in the north?

That said, I have to admit that I wasn't delving into the history or nomenclature of the ragas, only how they are sung today and how different they are. Thanks for your input!

sr_iyer · Post by **sr_iyer** » 03 Jan 2007, 13:29

Rasam,

On your question of equivalents, I remember the article had cited an example on bEgaDa's oscillating madhyama and the equivalent m2/m1 use in Hindustani (in hEm kalyAN?). I am on travel and do not have the article handy to quote that part verbatim.

Also, would like to reiterate that I was quoting the article of Sri KV Ramachandran, just in case you mistook the viewpoint to be mine. Also, the oscillating svara to sharp/flat split is not the only reasoning offered, as you may have noted.

ogirala sri ramakrishna · Post by **ogirala sri ramakrishna** » 04 Feb 2007, 16:35

h h chandra sekharendra saraswati , the sankaracharya of kanchipuram and h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha ( sri ogirala veera raghava sarma garu ) , the saint composer of carnatac music of 20th century had a good relation ship during their life time.

h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha was in chennai in 1955 to dedicate his srimad DEvi GAna sudha to sangeeta kalanidhi , justice t.l.venkatrama iyer , the then judge supreme court of india and reknowened musicologist . at that time swamiji was on chaturmasya vratam in mylapore sanskrit college.

during reception committee meting the saint composer propopsed that he wants to have swamiji as president of the function. others felt it was not possible.
later the saint composer went to meet swamiji to invite him to the function. he waited for a longer time for darshan. after some time he decided to go back and started leaving the palace.

then came one attendent of swamiji enquiring who was ogirala sarma from kovvur. swamiji was calling him.

then the saint composer was escorted to swamiji. that was their first meeting.
after seeing the saint composer swamiji asked him sarma how are you . how you are here. how your progressing in sadhana etc.

then he extended his invitation to swamiji to preside over the function. after receiving the invitation swamiji started laughting for a couple of minutes. then he called his attendents and asked them to note down the engagement. swmiji accepted the invitation.

swamiji presided over the function in the mylapore sanskrit college. the programme started with the rendering of some songs sung by his daughters lalita and vimala, composed by h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha.

after that he dedicated his book srimad devi ganasudha with flowers, fruits to sri venkatrama iyer.
prof p.samba murty , dr. v.raghavan , mudikondan venkatrama iyer and other prominent musicians attended the function.

during the function prof.sambamurthy rendered the song paDAra vimdamule and said it was composed in a new raga pranavapriya and said gayatry is pranavapriya.
immediately swamiji said pranavapriya is gayatry gayatry is raghava .

after the function swamij expressed his to listen to the songs in private. lalita and vimala sang the songs composed by the saint composer. the swamiji and the saint composer sat together. he liked the songs tanuve in the ghana raga gowla very much . heb said the essence of hindu philosophy was in this song.

after some time one tamil ips officer from eluru in andhra pradesh approached swamiji for initiation into srividhya. after enquirying his posting swamiji advised him to go to kovvur and take initiation into sri vidhya from the saint composer.
then the officer was initiated by the saint into srividhya.

in the last days of h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha swamiji send his personal disciple to kovvur to see the saint composer and to convey his blessings.

after few days h h bhakta gnanananda tirtha attained maha samadhi on margasira bahula dwadasi on 4-1-1989.

after few years swamiji also attained maha samadhi on margasira bahula dwadasi at the same time.