TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Review the latest concerts you have listened to.
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Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

There is a lot to share about this concert, and I will do so as soon as I can, and will also add the customary details to the list, which I'm leaving as it is for now as they are mostly familiar items.


1. Vrittam in Yamunakalyani followed by "Krishna Nee Begane Baaro"

2. Alapana in Kharaharapriya followed by "Janakipathe Jaya Karunyajaladhe"

3. Taanam in Shankarabharanam followed by "Kanivolum Kamaneeya Hridayam"

4. "Vinataasuta Vahana Sri Ramana," in Jayantasena

5. Ragamalika alapana in Varali and Mukhari

6. "Soundararaajam aashraye" in Brindavana Saranga followed by the Tani Avartanam

7. Javali "Marubari Talanenu Ra" in Khamas

8. Vrittam in Lathangi, Anandabhairavi, Kannada, Behag, followed by "Allahvai Naam Tozhudaal"

9. "Bruhi Mukundeti," in Kurinji

10. "Porambokku Paadal" Ragamalika in Anandabhairavi, Hameer Kalyani, Begada, Devagandhari, Salaga Bhairavi, Sindhubhairavi

11. Nottuswaram "Santatam Paahimaam Sangeeta Shyamale" in Shankarabharanam

harimau
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by harimau »

Wow!

So, you actually went there!

I am sure we can soon expect a gushing review of the sort we used to get about TNS concerts from Saroja Ramanujam!

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Ranganayaki wrote: 10 Sep 2018, 11:45 8. Vrittam in Lathangi, Anandabhairavi, Kannada, Behag, followed by "Allahvai Naam Tozhudaal"
What was the 'related' viruttam ?

Pratyaksham Bala
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Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Ranganayaki wrote: 10 Sep 2018, 11:45 10. "Porambokku Paadal" Ragamalika in Anandabhairavi, Hameer Kalyani, Begada, Devagandhari, Salaga Bhairavi, Sindhubhairavi
This song ?
https://lyricsing.com/chennai-poromboke ... yrics.html

ganeshkant
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by ganeshkant »

Allahvai naam tozhudhal is a very famous devotional song sung by Nagoor E.M.Hanifa in karnataka devagandhari.Did TMK sing it in behag ?

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

ganeshkant wrote: 10 Sep 2018, 21:54 Allahvai naam tozhudhal is a very famous devotional song sung by Nagoor E.M.Hanifa in karnataka devagandhari.Did TMK sing it in behag ?
Yes.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 10 Sep 2018, 12:49
Ranganayaki wrote: 10 Sep 2018, 11:45 8. Vrittam in Lathangi, Anandabhairavi, Kannada, Behag, followed by "Allahvai Naam Tozhudaal"
What was the 'related' viruttam ?
There was a “related viruttam” at the very start too, you know! That might be just as interesting, for all you know!

I will be adding details soon.

pattamaa
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by pattamaa »

If the musician started to sing gods on other faiths last year (or atleast before recent controversies) in places like olcat kuppam, he might have got some appreciations. What can it be called if someone does something for heck of doing it ?

ganeshkant
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Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 11:59

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by ganeshkant »

This famous muslim devotional " iravainidam kaiEndhungaL" is sung by Udayaloor JKD & others in namasankeerthanam progs.no one objected.
But they carefully replace Allah with some other name.

Sundara Rajan
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Sundara Rajan »

I do not understand the objection to carnatic songs on "AllAh". AllAh does not refer to any muslim god ! The Arabic word Allah simply means the "supreme being", God, KadvUL in Tamil, BhagavAn in Sanskrit.

SrinathK
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by SrinathK »

Song list notwithstanding, how was the actual concert?

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 10:12 Song list notwithstanding, how was the actual concert?
It was a good concert, the experience was excellent, the music shone through, without too much of the usual acrobatics, and I didn't miss it. Not heavy on neraval, korvais, kanakku, with the focus on ragas and songs and mood and emotion. Different from the showmanship we expect from everyone, but the music wasn't missing. It didn't feel terribly intellectual, sensitive rather, and there was saukhyam throughout.

I'm trying to gather my thoughts, and write a little at a time, so please bear with me till I share it.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

Oops - can’t edit my post: re-submitting with edits (sorry!!)


1. Vrittam in Yamunakalyani followed by "Krishna Nee Begane Baaro" - Vyaasaraaya - Misra Chapu

2. Alapana in Kharaharapriya followed by "Janakipathe Jaya Karunyajaladhe" - Papanasam Sivan - Adi Taalam

3. Taanam in Shankarabharanam followed by "Kanivolum Kamaneeya Hridayam" - Old Malayalam film song set to music by V. Dakshinamurthi, lyrics composed by Abhayadev, originally sung by P. Leela.

4. "Vinataasuta Vahana Sri Ramana," in Jayantasena - Thyagaraja - Adi Taala

5. Ragamalika alapana in Varali and Mukhari

6. "Soundararaajam aashraye" in Brindavana Saranga followed by the Tani Avartanam - Dikshitar - Rupakam

7. Javali "Marubari Talanenu Ra" in Khamas - Dharmspuri Subbaraya Iyer - Adi Taala (viewtopic.php?t=2836) -

8. Vrittam in Lathangi, Anandabhairavi, Kannada, Behag, followed by "Allahvai Naam Tozhudaal" - Naagoor Hanifa - Misra Chaapu https://mobile.twitter.com/tmkrishna/st ... 70?lang=en

9. "Bruhi Mukundeti" in Kurinji - Sadasiva Brahmendra - Adi Taalam

10. "Porambokku Paadal" Ragamalika in Anandabhairavi, Hameer Kalyani, Begada, Devagandhari, Salaga Bhairavi, Sindhubhairavi - ??

11. Nottuswaram "Santatam Paahimaam Sangeeta Shyamale" in Shankarabharanam - Dikshitar - Rupakam

shankarank
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by shankarank »

Ranganayaki wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 10:42 Not heavy on neraval, korvais, kanakku, with the focus on ragas and songs and mood and emotion. Different from the showmanship we expect from everyone, but the music wasn't missing.
I need to ask you : what you mean by music? I was listening to Amritha Murali @ the Ramnad Centenary series as usual with the silent Arun ! We complained about neraval styled sangatis, but we have gone to Alapanai style neraval and worse Alapanai style kriti rendition as well.

To express a rAga , you only need an Akaram, well if you need anchoring, your have some syllabic anchors like te-da-ri-na . Why do you need to anchor yourself with additional syllables?

The word song here itself is misleading. We have bought into this notion that we as humans are capable of having moods that can be expressed via language which is used for communication and the song is language in that sense. Complete lack of humility ( well I don't have any other word that is not carrying an anthropocentric notion!)

This is completely an English Literature notion, and this is NOT how the tradition viewed sAhitya.

So it will be better if you don't use characterizations like "showmanship" , "koRvais" , "kanakkus" , "neraval" if you don't have the correct understanding of Indian traditions.

kORvai is taught by teaching the underlying logic, math, pattern building - and that is vyAkaraNa or grammar a tool for Guru to have conversation with Sishya. That itself is sacred.

A rasika in the traditions does not experience it like that. You should know the difference between the two. Don't carry notions of grammar , with assumed superiority of human intelligence ( that I can understand this kORvai because I can figure out it's math kind of attitude!) to judge these things.

That is where from the first word to the last T.M Krishna is entirely wrong!!! He understood it wrongly, what was actually also not a complete state of music - for many other reasons, and then started criticizing it!

Even in a sadas, a vidvAn does not judge a kORvai player simply by the math!

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

TMK opened with a beautiful Vrittam on the Supreme One:

"Om Tatsat. Shri Narayana Tu. Purushottama Guru Tu. Siddha Buddhi Tu. Skanda -Vinayaka Savitaapaavaka Tu. Bramha Mazda Tu. ...-Shakti Tu. Eeshu Tu. Eeshupita Tu. Ramakrishna Tu. Raheem-TaoTu. Rudra-Vishnu Tu. Vishnu Purana Krishna Tu. ... Akaala Nirbhaya Aatma Linga Tu.. Om Tatsat!! "


He segued into the kriti with a few "baaro" added at the end of the Vrittam.. Rk Shriramkumar and Arun Prakash were delightful musical extensions of TMK's sensitive voice, also in the slow kalpanaswarams which I almost didn't notice for what they were, it was just music 😊.

This was simple and fundamental truth (with a capital T) just simplicity and beauty... Primed by the message of Oneness with all the various words for the Absolute, I had an instantly spiritual response with the mention of Ramakrishna, almost as though I was in deep meditation myself, it had never happened before! I don't have words for it, "transported" is not quite it. I was very much present, but enveloped by the music, my mind was - secluded!! Then the song ended, and the doors opened with a bang it seemed, and all the late-comers who could not enter during the first piece charged in like rhinos to my mind, and my mood was destroyed.

The Kharaharapriya was very nice, not much to say about it, except that I couldn't help thinking what a great team they were. There were moments of silence, the kind TMK seems to quietly enjoy in the middle of his music and his team know just what to do.. Just play a note, or be quiet, and play nothing... KAP plays a soft basic beat and knows the value and power of mridangam silence in a concert, such a relief after years of mostly continuously noisy mridangists! Neraval at " Sakala Mahitendra Neelamani Nibha Shareera Paahi Saketa Naayaka." The neraval segued into swaras, elaborating around the upper rishabha, with a very quick koraippu and the violinist taking the lead for sarvalaghus, seamlessly followed by TMK's with the mridangam alternating between fine and strong sound. The piece ended with a short solo by the mridangist with a simple korvai ending without too much fanfare.

Shankarabharanam Taanam.. I was aware this time not to be surprised by the absence of an alapana and not to expect a Pallavi or anything in Shankarabharanam following it. And when you don't have those expectations, it is very easy to adjust when the kutcheri does not follow the usual predictable lines, but presents so much other beauty to experience.

The Taanam came to a rather simple end and I was reminded of some other inspired Taanam endings, which this one didn't have, but it was all right. He asked the audience to show how many of us knew Malayalam, and some people raised hands, and he says to laughter,"Ok, first thing you do is to excuse my Malayalam, and secondly you can tell your neighbor what the next song is about.." The beautiful song Kanivolum Kamaneeya Hridayam followed (in Shankarabharanam), and I had to google it to know the exact pallavi line. But it was clear that it was a song on Sri Jesus Christ. To be frank, the change was welcome, and jarred nobody's ears in the audience. He mentioned its credits as a film song.

I switched off for a moment feeling a little bored by the choice of "Vinatasuta Vahana," and didn't bother to follow the lyrics and meanings on an app as I usually do.. It turned out to be a mistake, as I found out later, talking to our friend Musikapriya after the concert. He explained how Thyagaraja himself asks if there can be sukha in pleasant words (sammata vaakkulu) without the flame of differences in "modes of worship"/opinion being extinguished. I realized that it was not a random filler but a well-chosen song to assuage the hurt we all felt by the negative circumstances surrounding the concert, and to question the hatred brought on by differences. Thyagaraja recommends the company of the pure-hearted (sat-sangati) who make no matter of any difference and who instead offer the comfort (saukhyamu) of Oneness, rather than the flames of difference (meaning here adapted from Sri VGV's work). I missed that moment in the concert, and a mind more open would have helped me enjoy it more. 😊 I'm glad he chose to sing it.

The ragamalika alapana was fantastic, with the alternate segueing from raga back to raga getting progressively shorter and more seamless. A true joy, without the intellect seeming to intervene in a moment of musical meditation. The meditative mood was set with the Varali seeming to come from the depth of his heart. He remained in the lower reaches of the primary octave, without exploring the uttarangam , but the exploration took him lower into the mandara sthayee, to the lower P, then lower around the M, back up to the P, all very normal, but then he went lower and lower exploring each swara, all the way to the S and the atimandara N, staying there for a moment before gently returning up the lower octave to finish and hand it to RKSK who continued the meditation, also remaining in the lower octave. It was not just the audience who was touched, but Sri KAP and RKSK also appeared to be very moved. My heart filled up and I can only count on you all knowing the feeling that is not something to describe.

There was a ten-second hint of Brindavana Saranga before "Soundararajam Ashraye," beautifully done. This was followed by a short Tani. There were moments of laughter and appreciation during this, but the reason escaped me.

It was a little difficult for me to catch all the words of the Vrittam that began in Lathangi, but there is another version of it in different ragas at https://soundcloud.com/rajesh-garga/mud ... n-virutham .

Mudiatha tuyaril Naan moozhgikkidakkindren
Moorkam soozhnthida marugith Thavikkindren
Vidiyatha irul pothil vegu dooram kadanthu virainthu vanthu vanthu
ILamai valuvodu padiyeri padiyeri padam thoynthavan
Padum Paadu paarka Parvai thiruppu nee
Madiyeru mugameru malarpola vaadidum manamerumarul Neekku
Maathorubaagane.

He later announced that the Vrittam was a composition of PerumaaL Murugan.

The heartbreaking Porambokku Paadal was sung at someone's request.

It was a wonderful concert, truly a concerted effort of like-minded individuals there, from the family who took the initiative to organize it, to the artists, to the audience who supported it by showing up, each and every member..

Clearly, TMK who spoke to give thanks was touched, and he acknowledged the sudden change in significance that the concert took and said that it was not so much that it was a TMK concert that it needed to happen, but because a democracy is the only humanly made structure gives us the ability to share empathy and transcend differences. He said that as a democratic idea, this concert was extremely important.

About art, he made the point that we say that art transcends, going beyond religion, gender, but in fact art doesn't really "go" anywhere of its own accord. So if art really should create dialog and open or cross boundaries then human beings need to make the effort to make it happen. Artists and all who share art have to make the effort to make the conversation possible, regardless of the boundaries of religion, or gender.

The wonderful thing that came out of all the noise, he said, was that we all came together to do something. As you know, I agree heartily. He concluded, after thanking the people crucial to his tour, by saying, "Thank you very much, DC, you made it very special." It really was moving.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 09:36
Ranganayaki wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 10:42 Not heavy on neraval, korvais, kanakku, with the focus on ragas and songs and mood and emotion. Different from the showmanship we expect from everyone, but the music wasn't missing.
...
What's your point?

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by SrinathK »

shankarank wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 09:36
Ranganayaki wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 10:42 Not heavy on neraval, korvais, kanakku, with the focus on ragas and songs and mood and emotion. Different from the showmanship we expect from everyone, but the music wasn't missing.
I need to ask you : what you mean by music? I was listening to Amritha Murali @ the Ramnad Centenary series as usual with the silent Arun ! We complained about neraval styled sangatis, but we have gone to Alapanai style neraval and worse Alapanai style kriti rendition as well.

To express a rAga , you only need an Akaram, well if you need anchoring, your have some syllabic anchors like te-da-ri-na . Why do you need to anchor yourself with additional syllables?

The word song here itself is misleading. We have bought into this notion that we as humans are capable of having moods that can be expressed via language which is used for communication and the song is language in that sense. Complete lack of humility ( well I don't have any other word that is not carrying an anthropocentric notion!)

This is completely an English Literature notion, and this is NOT how the tradition viewed sAhitya.

So it will be better if you don't use characterizations like "showmanship" , "koRvais" , "kanakkus" , "neraval" if you don't have the correct understanding of Indian traditions.

kORvai is taught by teaching the underlying logic, math, pattern building - and that is vyAkaraNa or grammar a tool for Guru to have conversation with Sishya. That itself is sacred.

A rasika in the traditions does not experience it like that. You should know the difference between the two. Don't carry notions of grammar , with assumed superiority of human intelligence ( that I can understand this kORvai because I can figure out it's math kind of attitude!) to judge these things.

That is where from the first word to the last T.M Krishna is entirely wrong!!! He understood it wrongly, what was actually also not a complete state of music - for many other reasons, and then started criticizing it!

Even in a sadas, a vidvAn does not judge a kORvai player simply by the math!
Do we really need to debate each and every word and concept here? :?

Maybe we can open a dictionary thread to discuss all terms Carnatic from A-Z and everyone can share their opinions there?

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

If my understanding is correct, VRITTAM denotes meter in poetry. In Tamil it is known as 'Sandham', I think.

Virut(t)ham must be the usage in Tamil to denote musical rendering of verses.

Slokas (as verses are described in Sanskrit) are commonly rendered as Ragamalika Virutthams.

*******
Pratyaksham Bala has subtly noted this point (post #3)

ram1999
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by ram1999 »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 10:31 Clearly, TMK who spoke to give thanks was touched, and he acknowledged the sudden change in significance that the concert took and said that it was not so much that it was a TMK concert that it needed to happen, but because a democracy is the only humanly made structure gives us the ability to share empathy and transcend differences. He said that as a democratic idea, this concert was extremely important.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 13:38 If my understanding is correct, VRITTAM denotes meter in poetry. In Tamil it is known as 'Sandham', I think.

Virut(t)ham must be the usage in Tamil to denote musical rendering of verses.

Slokas (as verses are described in Sanskrit) are commonly rendered as Ragamalika Virutthams.

*******
Pratyaksham Bala has subtly noted this point (post #3)
Ok.. Thank you 😊

bilahari
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 09:02

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by bilahari »

Thank you for that heartfelt narration of the concert, Ranganayaki. While I do not care for TMK's rather unfocused political writing, and decreasingly care for his unstructured and often uneven brand of music, I agree very much that art is transcendental, and admire any authentic effort to make it so.

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by sureshvv »

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 13:38 Pratyaksham Bala has subtly noted this point (post #3)
I thought he was wondering what the appropriate viruttam would be for a song on Allah. But Sundara Rajan sir has clarified.

harimau
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by harimau »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 10:31 TMK opened with a beautiful Vrittam on the Supreme One:

"Om Tatsat. Shri Narayana Tu. Purushottama Guru Tu. Siddha Buddhi Tu. Skanda -Vinayaka Savitaapaavaka Tu. Bramha Mazda Tu. ...-Shakti Tu. Eeshu Tu. Eeshupita Tu. Ramakrishna Tu. Raheem-TaoTu. Rudra-Vishnu Tu. Vishnu Purana Krishna Tu. ... Akaala Nirbhaya Aatma Linga Tu.. Om Tatsat!! "
He forgot the Holy Ghost! Only Yesu and Yesu's Dad. (Not Joseph, but the Big Guy Up There). This is what happens when one goes to The School of J Krishnamurthy and Vivekananda College as opposed to a good Jesuit college like Loyola.

vijay.siddharth
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by vijay.siddharth »

@harimau, not only have the content of your posts become contentious, but the quality of your writing has deteriorated! You forgot the inverted comma between Yesu and s in the phrase 'yesu's dad'!

harimau
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by harimau »

Sundara Rajan wrote: 11 Sep 2018, 09:06 I do not understand the objection to carnatic songs on "AllAh". AllAh does not refer to any muslim god ! The Arabic word Allah simply means the "supreme being", God, KadvUL in Tamil, BhagavAn in Sanskrit.
Why don't you tell that to the authorities in Malaysia? They threatened the Christian Church that if they used Allah for Jehovah, they would be prosecuted for blasphemy.

I know, we are not like them! Whatever that means!

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 18:49
Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 13:38 Pratyaksham Bala has subtly noted this point (post #3)
I thought he was wondering what the appropriate viruttam would be for a song on Allah. ...
Yes. That was what I was curious about.

Now I note that the viruttam is addressed to Ardhanariswara for the song on Allah. The only link I find is in the language - both are in Tamil.

I was expecting something like “Allah hu samad Lam yalid … …”

sureshvv
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by sureshvv »

SrinathK wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 12:19 Do we really need to debate each and every word and concept here? :?
And hardly coherently, to add insult to injury?

vijay.siddharth
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by vijay.siddharth »

@shankarank is the epitome of coherence, evidently...

sureshvv
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Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 10:31 It was a little difficult for me to catch all the words of the Vrittam that began in Lathangi, but there is another version of it in different ragas at https://soundcloud.com/rajesh-garga/mud ... n-virutham .

Mudiatha tuyaril Naan moozhgikkidakkindren
Moorkam soozhnthida marugith Thavikkindren
Vidiyatha irul pothil vegu dooram kadanthu virainthu vanthu vanthu
ILamai valuvodu padiyeri padiyeri padam thoynthavan
Padum Paadu paarka Parvai thiruppu nee
Madiyeru mugameru malarpola vaadidum manamerumarul Neekku
Maathorubaagane.

He later announced that the Vrittam was a composition of PerumaaL Murugan.


Thank you for the link and the lyrics of the viruttam.

To hear Carnatic Music rendered for the words of a contemporary poet with a socially relevant message is truly awe inspiring.

Kudos to TMK.

Perumal Murugan was interviewed at The Hindu Lit Fest 2017 at Chennai. His story is heart wrenching. This particular passage conveys his agony and despair very well.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

bilahari wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 18:29 Thank you for that heartfelt narration of the concert, Ranganayaki. While I do not care for TMK's rather unfocused political writing, and decreasingly care for his unstructured and often uneven brand of music, I agree very much that art is transcendental, and admire any authentic effort to make it so.
Thank you, Bilahari..

I get to listen to TMK live once in two or three years. AND, I missed his last concert in DC. I think I’ve attended just three concerts of his. But I get to listen to YouTube videos and I find the quality or the standard consistently good. I enjoy it very very much, so much so that I listened to one song continuously every time I got into my car for a whole week. I still haven’t tired of it.

To be frank, his new avatar pleases me much more, he has changed so much, putting music above himself when he sings. I hadn’t seen him sing before 2011 in New Jersey, but his older videos seem to be all about him. In those, which somehow everyone prefers, he seems to be shouting to me, “Look, see what all I can do!” There wasn’t much music in that, it was boring to me. That is totally absent now, and it is no longer about the “viddai” he can demonstrate. Now he is not extending his prowess, but searching for the beauty - that is my view of what he seems to be doing. That’s why I am able to enjoy a single song continuously for a week.

So I’m unable to know what you mean when you say, “uneven brand of music.” Would you care to say what makes it uneven for you?

Thank you for your nuanced view.

sureshvv
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by sureshvv »

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 19:06
Yes. That was what I was curious about.

Now I note that the viruttam is addressed to Ardhanariswara for the song on Allah. The only link I find is in the language - both are in Tamil.

I was expecting something like “Allah hu samad Lam yalid … …”
Hope you read my post in full and also Sri Soundara Rajan's comment that I was referring to.

"Vanukku thandhai evano, Mannukku moolam evano" could have been a nice possibility.

"Vandha naal mudhal Indha naal varai" is another gem if retuned right.

May be next time ;)

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 18:49
Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 13:38 Pratyaksham Bala has subtly noted this point (post #3)
I thought he was wondering what the appropriate viruttam would be for a song on Allah. But Sundara Rajan sir has clarified.
Yes, that’s what I thought too. Anyway Pratyaksham Bala has clarified too and I am glad subtlety wasn’t lost on me 🙂.

Like Sundara Rajan, I too don’t understand the problem with “Allah.” It’s just a word, and we are so comfortable with “God!” While we are so comfortable saying things like our god and their god, we wouldn’t dream of saying our allah and their allah 😁. May be the Muslim conquerors should have made us all speak Arabic the way all educated people speak English. Then we would be able to say Allah while continuing to speak Vedanta. Then what would Hindu-Muslim relations have looked like?

harimau
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by harimau »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 19:01 ...not only have the content of your posts become contentious, but the quality of your writing has deteriorated! You forgot the inverted comma between Yesu and s in the phrase 'yesu's dad'!
My posts have always been contentious and intentionally so. I do not switch off my brain nor do I shrink away from expressing an opinion different from The Hindu which is what is being regurgitated ad nauseam here by people who cannot think for themselves.

Before you comment on my writing style, you could consider that perhaps my keyboard got stuck and I had to post and then go back and edit it. It has happened to me quite a few times. But I edited it so quickly, this website doesn't even show that it was edited once. So I could claim that you are seeing things that weren't there but I won't.

Finally, it is not an inverted comma. It is called an apostrophe. Stop reading The Hindu. Your English will definitely improve.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 19:31
Thank you for the link and the lyrics of the viruttam.

To hear Carnatic Music rendered for the words of a contemporary poet with a socially relevant message is truly awe inspiring.

Kudos to TMK.

Perumal Murugan was interviewed at The Hindu Lit Fest 2017 at Chennai. His story is heart wrenching. This particular passage conveys his agony and despair very well.
Thank you, you are welcome. Any ready links to that interview with PerumaaL Murugan?

I meant to provide this link too to the song, but forgot to add it in Behag. It is available in other versions sung by many others, but this one is probably lovelier for us - the CM-trained ear.

https://m.soundcloud.com/rajesh-garga/6allahvai-naam

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

harimau wrote: 10 Sep 2018, 12:32
Wow!

So, you actually went there!
I wonder why that’s so surprising..

harimau
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by harimau »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 20:49
sureshvv wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 18:49
Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 13:38 Pratyaksham Bala has subtly noted this point (post #3)
I thought he was wondering what the appropriate viruttam would be for a song on Allah. But Sundara Rajan sir has clarified.
Yes, that’s what I thought too. Anyway Pratyaksham Bala has clarified too and I am glad subtlety wasn’t lost on me 🙂.

Like Sundara Rajan, I too don’t understand the problem with “Allah.” It’s just a word, and we are so comfortable with “God!” While we are so comfortable saying things like our god and their god, we wouldn’t dream of saying our allah and their allah 😁. May be the Muslim conquerors should have made us all speak Arabic the way all educated people speak English. Then we would be able to say Allah while continuing to speak Vedanta. Then what would Hindu-Muslim relations have looked like?
Absolute ignorance of history. But that is par for the course.

The Moghul sultans who ruled India were Turkic (read carefully: not Turkish) in origin. They used Persian (Farsi) as their language. When the British took over India in 1757, they continued to use Persian. The college where Englishmen were trained before they were sent to rule India taught them Persian. Only in 1858 was the language of administration changed to English.

If the sultans had continued ruling India, you would all be Ben Dovers.

bilahari
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by bilahari »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 20:38 To be frank, his new avatar pleases me much more, he has changed so much, putting music above himself when he sings. I hadn’t seen him sing before 2011 in New Jersey, but his older videos seem to be all about him. In those, which somehow everyone prefers, he seems to be shouting to me, “Look, see what all I can do!” There wasn’t much music in that, it was boring to me. That is totally absent now, and it is no longer about the “viddai” he can demonstrate. Now he is not extending his prowess, but searching for the beauty - that is my view of what he seems to be doing. That’s why I am able to enjoy a single song continuously for a week.

So I’m unable to know what you mean when you say, “uneven brand of music.” Would you care to say what makes it uneven for you?
I've thought a lot about TMK's music as it has transformed dramatically over the past half-decade.

I enjoyed the pre-disposal of kutcheri paddati TMK for his SSI-esque verve, aesthetic sensibilities, voice range and culture. I still recall being moved to tears listening to his varugalAmo aiyya at the Parthasarathy Swamy Sabha in 2007 (?), and his incredible kIravANi and tODi RTP in Singapore a year or two later.

You are right that his music then was about demonstrating to us his talent and potential, and sizable they are. However, I don't know that that egotism isn't central to his music even now, and I think a lot of what I find difficult in his music now is rooted in doubts of authenticity.

I will say that I am very prejudiced in interpreting his music by his ramblings on The Hindu, and I as much as I try to dissociate the two personas, I cannot. I wonder if what his music is today is just contrarian, counter-culture, and rebellion for the sake of it rather than being driven by a commitment to a higher purpose as he claims. For instance, when he sings in ati-vilamba kAlam, and often at uneven pace, I feel he is trying to sing as slowly as he can and attempting to convey an emotion that he does not feel. In contrast, when MDR sang in vilamba kAlam, and always with a supreme grip over the kAlapramANam, I feel he was truly one with his music and it feels to this day transcendental to me because of that. In an interview, he is quoted as saying 'enakku ippaDitAn varuthu' (this is how it comes to me). I cannot pinpoint exact elements of TMK's music to describe as inauthentic, nor can I MDR's as authentic, but like you allude, some feelings are instinctual and therefore not easily explained.

Other than the sense of inauthenticity, I think I do find his mish-mash of the concert structure a little jarring. I thought I would get used to it, but i have not. I enjoy expositions with depth, where I can immerse myself in the raga and composition. And with frequent shifts as TMK employs in his concerts, I do not find the experience absorbing.

By the same token, I can entirely understand why you find contemporary TMK so appealing. If I can get over my own hangups about him, I might find much that appeals to my sensibilities.

sureshvv
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 20:56
Thank you, you are welcome. Any ready links to that interview with PerumaaL Murugan?
A very short one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwW34TVYens

harimau
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by harimau »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 19:31
Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 10:31 It was a little difficult for me to catch all the words of the Vrittam that began in Lathangi, but there is another version of it in different ragas at https://soundcloud.com/rajesh-garga/mud ... n-virutham .

Mudiatha tuyaril Naan moozhgikkidakkindren
Moorkam soozhnthida marugith Thavikkindren
Vidiyatha irul pothil vegu dooram kadanthu virainthu vanthu vanthu
ILamai valuvodu padiyeri padiyeri padam thoynthavan
Padum Paadu paarka Parvai thiruppu nee
Madiyeru mugameru malarpola vaadidum manamerumarul Neekku
Maathorubaagane.

He later announced that the Vrittam was a composition of PerumaaL Murugan.


Thank you for the link and the lyrics of the viruttam.

To hear Carnatic Music rendered for the words of a contemporary poet with a socially relevant message is truly awe inspiring.

Kudos to TMK.

Perumal Murugan was interviewed at The Hindu Lit Fest 2017 at Chennai. His story is heart wrenching. This particular passage conveys his agony and despair very well.
Oh my God!

People sued Perumal Murugan for his book Madhorubhagan for offending the religious sentiments of the people of a village where women in their nakedness worship the local deity once a year. And his story is heart wrenching.

Salman Rushdie was given a fatwa of death for his book Satanic Verses. I suppose you found that hilarious.

I know, I know; we are not like them!

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

harimau wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 18:57
Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 10:31
"Om Tatsat. Shri Narayana Tu. Purushottama Guru Tu. Siddha Buddhi Tu. Skanda -Vinayaka Savitaapaavaka Tu. Bramha Mazda Tu. ...-Shakti Tu. Eeshu Tu. Eeshupita Tu. Ramakrishna Tu. Raheem-TaoTu. Rudra-Vishnu Tu. Vishnu Purana Krishna Tu. ... Akaala Nirbhaya Aatma Linga Tu.. Om Tatsat!! "

He forgot the Holy Ghost! Only Yesu and Yesu's Dad. (Not Joseph, but the Big Guy Up There).
Well, it was not his composition.. so it’s not that he forgot. I happened to message TMK on his fb Page ( hadn’t ever done that before this concert was announced) to ask about a phrase in this Viruttam and TMK responded, adding that it was part of a collection of songs that Mahatma Gandhi had put together for the Sabarmati Ashrams. He added that even the Sai Baba Ashrams sing it.

I recently read about the Holy Trinity of the Christians to understand the concept of the Holy Ghost. Turns out that the Holy Ghost seems to be equalent to the Jeevatma in the dualist perspective. It is that source of love and of yearning for the paramatma present in all of us. It is also described as a “counselor” within, which I equate to the notion of Guruguha, the guru in the cave of the heart, our inner voice of our higher Self, etc.

Not just TMK forgetting about the Holy Ghost, we all mostly forget or ignore it. Thank you for reading the lines of the Viruttam.

sureshvv
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by sureshvv »

bilahari wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 21:05
You are right that his music then was about demonstrating to us his talent and potential, and sizable they are. However, I don't know that that egotism isn't central to his music even now, and I think a lot of what I find difficult in his music now is rooted in doubts of authenticity.
That was the big turn off for me as well. But when he sings Porambokku or Perumal Murugan's songs, I find no trace of egotism or self-absorption.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

harimau wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 21:05
Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 20:49 [

May be the Muslim conquerors should have made us all speak Arabic the way all educated people speak English. Then we would be able to say Allah while continuing to speak Vedanta. Then what would Hindu-Muslim relations have looked like?
Absolute ignorance of history. But that is par for the course.

The Moghul sultans who ruled India were Turkic (read carefully: not Turkish) in origin. They used Persian (Farsi) as their language. When the British took over India in 1757, they continued to use Persian. The college where Englishmen were trained before they were sent to rule India taught them Persian. Only in 1858 was the language of administration changed to English.

If the sultans had continued ruling India, you would all be Ben Dovers.
Yes, right, I forgot. Substitute “Persian” for “Arabic” in my post, and my point remains the same. After all it’s about one word in those languages, and being as comfortable in the use of the conqueror’s language, as we are with English.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

bilahari wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 21:05
However, I don't know that that egotism isn't central to his music even now, and I think a lot of what I find difficult in his music now is rooted in doubts of authenticity.
I wouldn’t let my mind be clouded by doubts. Becaouse they are in our minds and not his. When you have certitude about his inauthenticity, it would be fair to turn away from him. In writing that he has turned away from the old attitude and does not seem to put himself above the music, I am not naive enough to think that he has totally conquered his ego. There must be some, but it does not come through in the sound that he produces. Of course he will get an ego thrill when he sings and produces beauty, but the point is to bring out the beauty that exists for him to showcase. It’s a finer thing.

That said he does have an outlet for his ego, but it does not involve bending and shaping the music. It is his individuality that comes through when he discards the traditional paddhati. But that is a recent construct and is not inherent to the music, and in my view it is not sacrilegious to do so, and frankly it’s just what I wanted. The predictability was getting a bit boring to me.

May be you could set aside your doubts and give it a try for the music? After all, he is not less human than us, perfectly capable of failings. Why can’t we be generous and let him have his private failings?

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 21:11

A very short one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwW34TVYens
Thanks!

sureshvv
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by sureshvv »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 20:49
May be the Muslim conquerors should have made us all speak Arabic the way all educated people speak English. Then we would be able to say Allah while continuing to speak Vedanta. Then what would Hindu-Muslim relations have looked like?
Actually they did. How do you think Urdu was born? If you see the Bollywood movies of the 40s and 50s, it was all largely Urdu. The harimeows have done their best to wipe out history in this and many such matters.

SrinathK
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by SrinathK »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 22:21
Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 20:49
May be the Muslim conquerors should have made us all speak Arabic the way all educated people speak English. Then we would be able to say Allah while continuing to speak Vedanta. Then what would Hindu-Muslim relations have looked like?
Actually they did. How do you think Urdu was born? If you see the Bollywood movies of the 40s and 50s, it was all largely Urdu. The harimeows have done their best to wipe out history in this and many such matters.
I sense that one form of trying to achieve 'oneness' is the explosive approach - conquer and destroy anything different from one's own. Then there is another form, the implosion approach, where we'd like to give up our existence and get taken over by what we consider as a superior form to ours.

These are gigantic extensions of the masculine and feminine paradigms at work on a macroscopic level. But regardless of the means, both are equally sick, one actively so, the other passively so - as I have written elsewhere in more detail. And the end result is the same. A very distorted attempt at creating 'advaita' in 'dvaita'.

And others try to find a middle ground, yield a bit here, push a bit there - good luck with that. Ultimately unity and peace happens due to the commonness of human nature over mutually opposite doctrines - a smile is a smile and a frown is a frown. Really, what keeps the followers of religions harmonious is the naive idea that we're all simple people and it's all the same ultimate thing we're trying to reach -- to a certain extent that is right - the urge to go beyond limitation is the common thread. But the beliefs, concepts, practices, ideas -- they're all totally different and contradictory.

The doctrines say stuff totally different from what we're comfortable believing in (or not), but we've rationalized that away.

Oneness isn't gonna happen in names and concepts and forms.

Anyway, I didn't plan on talking religion here. But just my 2 cents on the whole religious issue.
Last edited by SrinathK on 12 Sep 2018, 23:04, edited 3 times in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

sureshvv wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 22:21
Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 20:49
May be the Muslim conquerors should have made us all speak Arabic the way all educated people speak English. Then we would be able to say Allah while continuing to speak Vedanta. Then what would Hindu-Muslim relations have looked like?
Actually they did. How do you think Urdu was born? If you see the Bollywood movies of the 40s and 50s, it was all largely Urdu.
Yes. I thought of Urdu while I wrote..

But please let's take care to keep this thread about the concert. And about our views on TMK's musical evolution. We will have more opportunity than we need to discuss religious conflict. My apologies too. I didn't mean to go there.

rajeshnat
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by rajeshnat »

ranganayaki
You are in general sold on TMK's views and his statements in general . With that mindset you are perhaps liking bit more the music than actually considering what the musical concert was . For supposition sake say Harimau has sung this whole concert you may still like the music just here and there and you would have noticed more holes which you did not mention here as it just escaped you . In short there is a global LIKE switch that was already ON before the start of the concert.

TMK taking up lower register notes is very engaging , i loved his kapi inta sowkya where he did the magic which I heard a year of two back . His music is not uniformly engaging as it was like his pre shuffle days, but has indeed taken a different enjoyable trajectory.

Thank you for your review. As usual it was very crystal clear and for a change no shuffle of words.

Ranganayaki
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by Ranganayaki »

rajeshnat wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 23:25 ranganayaki
You are in general sold on TMK's views and his statements in general . With that mindset you are perhaps liking bit more the music than actually considering what the musical concert was . (...) In short there is a global LIKE switch that was already ON before the start of the concert.
Rajesh, has anyone here ever questioned your views of Sri Suryaprakash's concerts/music? What makes you think it's ok to question my reasons for liking a concert?

You appear here not to believe that anybody can truly like TMK's music, because you are unable to like it because of his views!!! So who has the open mind, surely not you!!

I have clearly expressed my thoughts on his views regarding music - I don't mind them. I LISTEN to music, my reaction is not based on outside behavior, but is completely connected to what I hear. But you are welcome to think I am a naive fool, influenced in listening by his writings. I am probably the one here who reads the least of what he writes - my main source is rasikas.
For supposition sake say Harimau has sung this whole concert you may still like the music just here and there and you would have noticed more holes which you did not mention here as it just escaped you .
I noticed that you are very strong in your disapproval of Shankarank, but not at all of Harimau. Do you have an open mind? Do you base your opinion (on who should be censored here) upon the issue of what is acceptable in this forum or upon your personal friendship with Harimau? My guess is that you don't have an on-going friendship with Shankarank.

If Harimau gave this concert, I would hear it for what it is, I would be amazed that he can show such sensitivity and yet totally contradict that appearance in his thinking. But I would be aware that such a thing is possible. It's not only nice people who can be artists. I would go to Harimau's concerts, because he makes good music and I am drawn to that and I would also feel pained by the rest of his personality. And in my review here (if I wrote one), I would write about my experience, same as TMK, and ignore the rest in the review, but I would continue to openly abhor his behavior here. You don't know me really, so don't try to get inside my mind and tell me how I think, other than what I've expressed.
Thank you for your review. As usual it was very crystal clear and for a change no shuffle of words.
I don't follow your comment. What does "for a change no shuffle of words" mean? To me it sounds like the exact opposite of "As usual it was crystal clear."

I suppose you don't know this, but I am trained to dissociate artistic production from the artist. It is easy for me. It's actually hArder to accept that others can't do it and are quite unaware of this. That's why I appreciate Bilahari's straightforwardness (and self-awareness) in admitting to his inability to dissociate the two, and that's why I felt he MAY be able to give it a try. And that's also why I would never tell Harimau (or you) to open your eyes to the universality of all religions.

I refrain from making personal comments about your musical likes and dislikes, everybody on this forum does so. Kindly return the courtesy to others and don't get personal.

bilahari
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Re: TMK at Georgetown University Intercultural Center (ICC) Auditorium

Post by bilahari »

Ranganayaki wrote: 12 Sep 2018, 21:49 I wouldn’t let my mind be clouded by doubts. Becaouse they are in our minds and not his. When you have certitude about his inauthenticity, it would be fair to turn away from him. In writing that he has turned away from the old attitude and does not seem to put himself above the music, I am not naive enough to think that he has totally conquered his ego. There must be some, but it does not come through in the sound that he produces. Of course he will get an ego thrill when he sings and produces beauty, but the point is to bring out the beauty that exists for him to showcase. It’s a finer thing.

That said he does have an outlet for his ego, but it does not involve bending and shaping the music. It is his individuality that comes through when he discards the traditional paddhati. But that is a recent construct and is not inherent to the music, and in my view it is not sacrilegious to do so, and frankly it’s just what I wanted. The predictability was getting a bit boring to me.

May be you could set aside your doubts and give it a try for the music? After all, he is not less human than us, perfectly capable of failings. Why can’t we be generous and let him have his private failings?
I think it is a perfectly valid point that the doubts are in our minds, and that they are doubts. I listened to the viruttam you posted as well as the porambOku song on YouTube, and I did enjoy both pieces. I do not understand Telugu and I am not religious (to put it mildly), so I find it difficult to appreciate the content of a lot of CM compositions. I did not have that problem at all with these pieces, which made them all the more enjoyable. It is a feeling of greater involvement with the art I rarely feel, and felt first listening to ohO kAlamE.

I also think that regardless of motivations we are responsible to musicians who are trying to make our art more inclusive and more expansive, and that alone merits support.

I will try to keep an open mind and listen to TMK, but I warn you that I am as human and flawed as he is, so my reaction may still remain coloured by my biases. :)

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