Songs on Nataraja

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Post Reply
Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Songs on Nataraja

Post by Ponbhairavi »

Compositions on God Nataraja of chidambaram
When I think of God Nataraja and the kshetram of Chidambaram,the songs which come. readily to my mind are the tamil compositions. Are there (m)any compositions in telegu or sanscrit by sri Thyagaraja , Sastri, or Dikshithar on thepresiding deities of Chidambaram the dancing god Nataraja or the Govindaraja ?

MaheshS
Posts: 1186
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by MaheshS »

Two MD krithi's come to mind, both in Kedaram. Ananda naTana prakASam & cidambara naTarAjam.

vijay.siddharth
Posts: 358
Joined: 14 May 2017, 13:08

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Govindarajam Upasmahe (Mukhari) [On Govindaraja Perumal]
Chidambara Nataraja Murthim (Tanukirthi)
Last edited by vijay.siddharth on 07 Sep 2018, 17:23, edited 1 time in total.

MaheshS
Posts: 1186
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by MaheshS »

vijay.siddharth wrote: 07 Sep 2018, 16:02 Govindarajam Upasmahe (Mukhari)
It's not about Natarajar though. It's about Govinda Rajar inside the Chidambaram Nataraja temple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govindara ... mal_Temple
http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2007/11/d ... rajam.html

vijay.siddharth
Posts: 358
Joined: 14 May 2017, 13:08

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by vijay.siddharth »

Thank you MaheshS. I saw the post and saw that Ponbhairavi wanted krithis on Govindaraja Perumal too, and posted Govindarajam Upasmahe. I will edit my post accordingly.

Lakshman
Posts: 14019
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Lakshman »

I found songs (non Tamil) by other composers on Nataraja:
cidambara naTarAjam. rAgA: kEdAra-Dikshitar
cidambarapurIshvaram. rAgA:dAtuvardhani-Kadalur Subramaniam
nI pada bhayamu niratamuga. rAgA: vakuLabharaNa-Madurai G.S,Mani
gaurI nAyaka (t). rAgA: kAnaDA-Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer
nigama niyamEna. rAgA: kharaharapriyA-Minakshisuta
inta bhramA pAlimpa. rAgA: shrImanOranjani-N.S.Ramachandran
nATyamADO naTarAja. rAgA: pUrvikalyaNi-Arasi
sadAshivamEva sadA. rAgA: Arabhi-Svarna Venkatesha Dikshitar

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Ponbhairavi »

thanks MaheshS, Vijay.siddarth.
Thanks Lakshman . Could you pl indicate the language of the composition, to be sure though the beginning words appear suggestive.

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by harimau »

Deena Karunakarane Nataraja Neelakantane. :D

ajaysimha
Posts: 831
Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by ajaysimha »

Hi ,
There is one interesting yet small and rare composition by diksithar on nataraja perumal
Chidambara nataraja murthim in Raga tanukeerithi
It also has the Raga mudhra embedded beautifully
https://youtu.be/qxunOy0tdmQ
Here is the link for the same

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by shankarank »

harimau wrote: 08 Sep 2018, 14:55 Deena Karunakarane Nataraja Neelakantane. :D
அதுலே அனாகத எடுப்பாவது இருக்கே! அப்படியாவது கொஞ்சம் சங்கீதம் பொழைச்சு போச்சு !

At least it got some off beat stuff - some music escaped into it! A good tantalizing quarter :P

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by shankarank »

http://www.chembur.com/carnatic/page06.html
In his time and down to the time of Tyagaraja, music and dance were much related and this is reflected in his use of tala words in several of his compositions. We find this usage in Oothukkadu Venkatasubbier, half a century later. In fact this practice persisted down to Muthuswami Dikshitar. It was Tyagaraja who broke this practice and cut off the connections with dance, with his ill concealed aversion to dance as made clear by his stern refusal to refer to Siva even once as a dancer.
Well even if so, that SrI tyAgarAjA was averse to ISvara as the dancer. He was not so much averse to apsaras dancing:

https://youtu.be/7twnTx0xcis?t=1763

That is the siShya of tirupAmburam svAminata pillai ( tribute here: https://youtu.be/AKAgDfUuzYg?t=243) singing a caraNam almost never sung!

Search for dance here : http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html

How did SrI tyAgarAjA compose opera etc., if he was so much averse to dance?

Many of his not so somber kritis can be danced to, including at least 3 of the pancaratnas.

And Sruti publishes such stuff!

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by vgovindan »

Of all the stutis of natTaraja, Siva tANDava - purportedly by rAvaNa - stands out as an exquisite piece.

HarishankarK
Posts: 2216
Joined: 27 Oct 2007, 11:55

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by HarishankarK »

Aadenamma harudu in paraju is on Dancing Siva isn't it?

HarishankarK
Posts: 2216
Joined: 27 Oct 2007, 11:55

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by HarishankarK »

Tyagaraja and Venkata kavi have composed on Narthana Ganapathi

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by RSR »

Prof.PonBairavi has raised a very pertinent point. He ofcourse might beknowing all the famous songs on Nataraja in btamil.
I maybe pardoned for giving three gems in tamil.
1) 'kAlaith thookki nindradum deivame -yadhukulakambothi by Smt.MS
https://youtu.be/3Zt9WJYdi3k

2) Thookkiya thiruvadi thunai ena nambinen - bsankarabaranam, Smt.DKP
https://youtu.be/O2Trm7q-fdE

3) pitthan endraalum ..aaberi...n.c.vasanthakokilam
https://youtu.be/OrSqOGYtr2k

MaheshS
Posts: 1186
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by MaheshS »

HarishankarK wrote: 13 Sep 2018, 17:03 Tyagaraja and Venkata kavi have composed on Narthana Ganapathi
What krithi[s] of Thyagaraja is on Nataraja? Thanks.

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Ponbhairavi »

533

When I casually opened this thread under the spell of nadamAdi thirindha(kamboji ) of PapavinAsa mudaliar, I did not realise that I am opening a pandora ‘s box.This subject needs a profound study by competent tamil scholars , musicologists and archeologists and bharathanaatyam experts.ALL my observations below are only my random reflexions and impressions and not authoritative facts.
Subsequent to the era of thevara padalgal ,Chidambaram and Nataraja have been the subject of musical compositions of the tamil trinity ( Muthu thandavar (1560-1640) ,Arunachala kavi (1712-1779), Marimutha Pillai (1717-1787,), pApavinAsa mudaliar (first half of 18th century )
SRi Thyagaraja (1767-1847) , a main pillar of telegu compositions in carnatic music, did not apparently compose a single song on Nataraja. Though he was born ,lived and died in tamil nadu he has not composed a single song in tamil. As per the legend, when Gopalakrishna Bharathi (1811-1896 ) sang Sabapathikku veru deivam samAnamAguma in front ot Thyagaraja,the latter is said to have replied with a composition in telegu Rama ni SamAnamevaru.. MD has composed a couple of kirthanai on the lord of Chidambaram in SANSKRIT
It looks as though there are no compositions in telegu on Nataraja( subject to verification )
OOthukadu (1700 -1765) who lived prior to Thyagaraja and a prolific composer in tamil, had a predilection for dance jathis and sollukattu.and change of nadai,. But he also does not appear to have composed on the Dancing Lord Siva. For dance he was thinking only of krishna and in one of his compositions AdAthu asangAthu vA , he obliquely refers that Nataraja has given up his dancing and has come to Gokulam to watch Krishna’s dance.But actually, it was GovindarAja who has gone over to thillai and settled in a shrine close to Nataraja to watch his dance.
There are apparently no Nataraja in North india temples On the initiative of Kanchi Mahaswamigal, a UTTARA Nataraja mandhir, was built in Satara near Pune.
How about Andhra and karnataka?any Nataraja temple?

I remember to have read somewhere that the location of Chidambaram has some global significance in Earth( magnetic field ..? ).
I reproduce below a quotation by Shankarank dated 21/6 in another thread: Tamil: A biography- David Shulmann in members stuff and lounge.

‘’https://nasa2000.livejournal.com/5343.html.
The figure of Nataraja is amazing. It is like a whirl of movement.the same archetype of movement we can see in the images of our galaxy, milky way,which belongs toclass of spiral or S galaxies.Limbs and flying matted hair remind spiral arms of the galaxy, and the circle of fire outilines its round boundaries. The face arrest out attention as bright center of star constellation.
On Arudhra day of Dhanur masa , the earth, Sun, and moon are not just in alignment with each other,but they are also in alignment with the centre of the galaxy.

https;//www.nasa,gov/topics/earth/featu...nment.html,
And Dancing Shiva is not there in any other culture- even within india. “”

It appears that Nataraja is typically tamil god. All shiva temples in Tamil nadu have a shrine for Nataraja(always facing south ).another interesting observation:
In the Chidambaram temple the western,northern and eastern gopurams do not straightly l;ead to a major sannidhi. But the southern gopuram faces straight to Nataraja sannadhi. The temple architecture of Nataraja temple is also at variance from the other siva temples of south india.. The legend that the tamil poems of the saint quartet were hidden somewhere there and much has been eaten away by termites apparently holds some chidambara rahasyam ( not the few strands of vilva leaves hanging in front of a black wall.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by shankarank »

Ponbhairavi wrote: 16 Sep 2018, 22:05 I remember to have read somewhere that the location of Chidambaram has some global significance in Earth( magnetic field ..? ).
https://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2015/04 ... rse-study/

Yet to read it in detail.

But I have heard about this one before:

https://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2016/10 ... longitude/

And here is one where Dr Raghavan's work is cited:

https://ramanan50.wordpress.com/2015/09 ... n-1054-ad/

Referred article: http://www.narthaki.com/info/articles/art217.html

But the fact is astronomical observations are old, and the winter solstice time [Ahem!] has special significance for all old cultures.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by RSR »

Ponbhairavi wrote: 16 Sep 2018, 22:05 533

When I casually opened this thread under the spell of nadamAdi thirindha(kamboji ) of PapavinAsa mudaliar, I did not realise that I am opening a pandora ‘s box.This subject needs a profound study by competent tamil scholars , musicologists and archeologists and bharathanaatyam experts.ALL my observations below are only my random reflexions and impressions and not authoritative facts.
Subsequent to the era of thevara padalgal ,Chidambaram and Nataraja have been the subject of musical compositions of the tamil trinity ( Muthu thandavar (1560-1640) ,Arunachala kavi (1712-1779), Marimutha Pillai (1717-1787,), pApavinAsa mudaliar (first half of 18th century )
SRi Thyagaraja (1767-1847) , a main pillar of telegu compositions in carnatic music, did not apparently compose a single song on Nataraja. Though he was born ,lived and died in tamil nadu he has not composed a single song in tamil. As per the legend, when Gopalakrishna Bharathi (1811-1896 ) sang Sabapathikku veru deivam samAnamAguma in front ot Thyagaraja,the latter is said to have replied with a composition in telegu Rama ni SamAnamevaru.. MD has composed a couple of kirthanai on the lord of Chidambaram in SANSKRIT
It looks as though there are no compositions in telegu on Nataraja( subject to verification )
OOthukadu (1700 -1765) who lived prior to Thyagaraja and a prolific composer in tamil, had a predilection for dance jathis and sollukattu.and change of nadai,. But he also does not appear to have composed on the Dancing Lord Siva. For dance he was thinking only of krishna and in one of his compositions AdAthu asangAthu vA , he obliquely refers that Nataraja has given up his dancing and has come to Gokulam to watch Krishna’s dance.But actually, it was GovindarAja who has gone over to thillai and settled in a shrine close to Nataraja to watch his dance.
There are apparently no Nataraja in North india temples On the initiative of Kanchi Mahaswamigal, a UTTARA Nataraja mandhir, was built in Satara near Pune.
How about Andhra and karnataka?any Nataraja temple?

I remember to have read somewhere that the location of Chidambaram has some global significance in Earth( magnetic field ..? ).
I reproduce below a quotation by Shankarank dated 21/6 in another thread: Tamil: A biography- David Shulmann in members stuff and lounge.

‘’https://nasa2000.livejournal.com/5343.html.
The figure of Nataraja is amazing. It is like a whirl of movement.the same archetype of movement we can see in the images of our galaxy, milky way,which belongs toclass of spiral or S galaxies.Limbs and flying matted hair remind spiral arms of the galaxy, and the circle of fire outilines its round boundaries. The face arrest out attention as bright center of star constellation.
On Arudhra day of Dhanur masa , the earth, Sun, and moon are not just in alignment with each other,but they are also in alignment with the centre of the galaxy.

https;//www.nasa,gov/topics/earth/featu...nment.html,
And Dancing Shiva is not there in any other culture- even within india. “”

It appears that Nataraja is typically tamil god. All shiva temples in Tamil nadu have a shrine for Nataraja(always facing south ).another interesting observation:
In the Chidambaram temple the western,northern and eastern gopurams do not straightly l;ead to a major sannidhi. But the southern gopuram faces straight to Nataraja sannadhi. The temple architecture of Nataraja temple is also at variance from the other siva temples of south india.. The legend that the tamil poems of the saint quartet were hidden somewhere there and much has been eaten away by termites apparently holds some chidambara rahasyam ( not the few strands of vilva leaves hanging in front of a black wall.
Absolutely wonderful post Sir. I tend to agree with every line there. The last few lines about Nataraja always facing South is a new information worth probing.
Best Regards

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by vgovindan »

IMO naTarAja temple is only a later addition to the main temple - tirumUla nAthar temple where Siva is worshipped in linga form. This is more so because, there is no nandi at the entrance of naTarAja temple and it is facing south. All these put together, I assume that naTarAja is actually 'dakshiNAmUrti'. And the ambalam is a later addition. The ancient 'tillai vana nathar' temple is stated to have been located on the sea shore, but was destroyed during Muslim invasion. The present temple is stated to have been built in the middle of the town later on.

I have read somewhere that in ancient times, vEdic brahmins would not enter the temple beyond nandi because they never believed in deity worship, but only in yajnas. This is also substantiated by the story of dAruka vana (tillai vana) incident where vEdic brahmins were performing magical rites and Siva appeared before them as bhikshATana (there is another dAruka vana in another part of India). In this place (tillai vana), kALi is stated to have been worhipped and Siva subdued kALi (tillaik kALi) by performing tANDava.

As far Tamil areas are concerned, it was the Sivacharyas - who were part and parcel of bANa community (musicians) who were responsible for the temple archana etc. It is curious that only in naTarAja temple, the brahmins (tillai vAzh andaNar - mUvAyiravar) are stated to have descended from heaven. Even today the Sivacharyas - gurukkal - and correspondong bhaTTar in vishNu temples - are not considered as brahmins.

(I am only expressing an impression I formed from reading various Tamil literature. Let people not jump to conclusions that I am suggesting something radical and start pouncing on me.)

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Ponbhairavi wrote: 16 Sep 2018, 22:05 Sri Thyagaraja (1767-1847), a main pillar of Telegu compositions in Carnatic Music, did not apparently compose a single song on Nataraja. Though he was born, lived and died in Tamil Nadu he has not composed a single song in Tamil.
Strange indeed !

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by harimau »

shankarank wrote: 17 Sep 2018, 01:56
Referred article: http://www.narthaki.com/info/articles/art217.html
The article says the Chola -- and Pallava -- bronzes depict Nataraja with his right leg extended. This is incorrect; Nataraja is depicted with his left leg raised and his right leg on the ground supporting his body. Any doubt about this is easily dispelled by the song Idathu Padam Thookki Aadum Natarajan Adi Panivame .

The exception is the Meenakshi Temple in Madurai where Nataraja is shown with his right leg raised. There is a legend associated with it. The Pandya king of Madurai, saddened that Siva would be tired from standing on his right leg, begged him to change his stance and Lord Nataraja obliged his devotee.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by rshankar »

harimau wrote: 18 Sep 2018, 22:52The exception is the Meenakshi Temple in Madurai where Nataraja is shown with his right leg raised. There is a legend associated with it. The Pandya king of Madurai, saddened that Siva would be tired from standing on his right leg, begged him to change his stance and Lord Nataraja obliged his devotee.
Hasn't Smt. Andavan Picchai composed a kRti on this? kAl mARi ADiya kanaka sabhEsA un mEl kAdal konDEn ayyanE - IIRC, in one of the caraNams, the sAhityam goes 'pAdam varundum enRu pANDiyan vENDiDa, vEdan mAlum kANA vimala malar pAdam nI dayavuDan Endi nartanam ADiDa....' referring to this episode.

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by harimau »

rshankar wrote: 18 Sep 2018, 22:59
harimau wrote: 18 Sep 2018, 22:52The exception is the Meenakshi Temple in Madurai where Nataraja is shown with his right leg raised. There is a legend associated with it. The Pandya king of Madurai, saddened that Siva would be tired from standing on his right leg, begged him to change his stance and Lord Nataraja obliged his devotee.
Hasn't Smt. Andavan Picchai composed a kRti on this? kAl mARi ADiya kanaka sabhEsA un mEl kAdal konDEn ayyanE - IIRC, in one of the caraNams, the sAhityam goes 'pAdam varundum enRu pANDiyan vENDiDa, vEdan mAlum kANA vimala malar pAdam nI dayavuDan Endi nartanam ADiDa....' referring to this episode.
I am not familiar with the song.

Kal Mari Adiya Kanaka Sabhesa, while alliterative, is incorrect, for the Meenakshi Temple houses the Rajata Sabha! :lol:

PS. I recognize that Nataraja is always referred to as Kanaka Sabhapathi/Sabhesan, the one exception being the name Rathna Sabhapathi that is not uncommon.

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

harimau wrote: 18 Sep 2018, 23:10Kal Mari Adiya Kanaka Sabhesa, while alliterative, is incorrect, for the Meenakshi Temple houses the Rajata Sabha! :lol:
Great !
PS. I recognize that Nataraja is always referred to as Kanaka Sabhapathi/Sabhesan, the one exception being the name Rathna Sabhapathi that is not uncommon.
Kanakasabhapathi – Ananda Thandava Nataraja of Chidambaram.
Ratnasabhapathi – Kali Thandava Nataraja of Tiruvalangadu.

MaheshS
Posts: 1186
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by MaheshS »

harimau wrote: 18 Sep 2018, 22:52
shankarank wrote: 17 Sep 2018, 01:56
Referred article: http://www.narthaki.com/info/articles/art217.html
The article says the Chola -- and Pallava -- bronzes depict Nataraja with his right leg extended. This is incorrect; Nataraja is depicted with his left leg raised and his right leg on the ground supporting his body. Any doubt about this is easily dispelled by the song Idathu Padam Thookki Aadum Natarajan Adi Panivame .

The exception is the Meenakshi Temple in Madurai where Nataraja is shown with his right leg raised. There is a legend associated with it. The Pandya king of Madurai, saddened that Siva would be tired from standing on his right leg, begged him to change his stance and Lord Nataraja obliged his devotee.
Not sure whether this a legend or not, but from what I've heard around Meenakshi amman temple growing up in Madurai, in dance traditionally only the right leg is raised, in a competition against Parvathi, Shiva in order to "win" , used the left leg and touched his right ear ring which Parvathi couldn't repeat. Madurai is an exception [?] because of the devotion of the King where his right leg is raised as opposed to normal Nataraja where his left leg is raised.

And of course you also have the "Pancha Sabais" ala, Pancha Bhutha kshetrams,

Rathana Sabai -Thiruvalangadu
Por Sabai - Chidambaram
Velli Sabai - Madurai
Thamirai Sabai - Thirunelveli
Chitra Sabai - Kutralam

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by shankarank »

Although this book is on SrI tyAgaraja of tiruvarur, the deity, it has some refences to naTarAja as well: https://books.google.com/books?id=ORwNm ... &q&f=false

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Ponbhairavi »

King Rajasekara pandian addresses arequest to kanaka sab esan:”you are always dancing with your left leg up. Will not your right foot ache ? Why don’t you ch ange your posture to give it some rest? To oblige his devotee the kanakasabesan dances with his right leg up and this givesachance toBrahma (vedan ) and tirumal who could not see his foot in their upward journey can have a dharsan now .there is a clever twist in the sentence of the poet
Kanakasabesan kAl. Mari AdiyadhAl ha now become Silver ambalathAn( velli ambalam ) Hencethe song is factually correct.
For a picture of velli ambala nataraja at Madurai pl see the link below.


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1M83AE ... MA5bJ1d_o5

You are the same kanakasabesan, but now you are the kAl mAri Adiya Kanakasabesan
A police inspector in his wedding medai is a pancha kacham kattiya inspector !!

harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by harimau »

MaheshS wrote: 19 Sep 2018, 00:55
..............

And of course you also have the "Pancha Sabais" ala, Pancha Bhutha kshetrams,

Rathana Sabai -Thiruvalangadu
Por Sabai - Chidambaram
Velli Sabai - Madurai
Thamirai Sabai - Thirunelveli
Chitra Sabai - Kutralam
Not the Pancha Bhutha Kshetrams.

While Tamra Sabha is always identified in popular literature and in people's minds as being in Tirunelveli, it is actually in a small village called Chepparai -- literally, Copper Room -- somewhat northeast of Tirunelveli. The confusion arises from the fact that at the Chepparai temple, Siva and Parvathi are given the names Nellayappar and Kanthimathi, the same names given to them at the Tirunelveli temple.

The very first Nataraja idol is supposed to have been installed at this temple, not at Chidambaram!

The story is that, after seeing the beautiful Nataraja, the king felt that the sculpture would be even more magnificent if made out of gold. He gave the sculptor enough gold and dutifully the sculptor replicated the original idol in gold. However, when the sculpture was removed from the mold, it was bronze. The king, enraged that he was cheated by the sculptor, imprisoned him. Lord Siva appeared before the king and said that he preferred to be represented in bronze rather than gold and so had turned the golden idol into a bronze one. The king released the sculptor from prison and installed this second Nataraja idol in Chidambaram and the first one was taken South and installed at Chepparai.

I never knew this until I googled for information and was led to the Chepparai temple and its legend!

There are three more Nataraja idols, supposedly identical, all located in little villages around Tirunelveli.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by RSR »

A flood of very nice and informative posts on the topic. THANKS ALL.

Excuse me if I am totally wrong but as an informal student of Sangam literarture ( I exclude patthupaattu_nand consider only the 'ettuth thokai, as many scholars are of the opinion that they are earlier ) I found almost nil reference to Lord Siva, leave alone Nataraja. Kalidasa's works are devoted to all the Gods of Hindu pantheon. and that was in Guptha period ( 300-600 AD). it is said that Guptha empire extended upto Kanchipuram and Pallava rule followed shortly. It was during the period of Mahendra Pallavan, that the Saivite canaon was produced along with Alwars poems . Before that, it may be that only vediism, jaininsm and buddhism were the faiths of the people of Tamilnad. Even Silappathikaram does not mention any Siva temple. but references to Lord Krishna , Balaraman aare found in many poems in Ettuth thokai ( mullai). Perhaps there was wholesale adoption of saivaiusm by jains.
Pallava rule seems to have extended even upto parts of present day pandyan territory. Cave paintings in Puthukkottai district and the cave temple in Pillaiyarpatti near Karaikkudi and Thiruppatthur bear testimony to that.
Every hundred years are so, there is radical change in cultural values but Pillayarpatti and Kundrakkudi are ancient and still thronged by devotees.
And Ganapathi is an import from Maratha area during Mahendra rule.
And Sri.Govindan is right in his observation that in the period before Sankara, ( 600 AD) ( COINCIDING WITH THAT OF sAMBANDAR) vedic brahmins swore by Veda only. They were neither saivites, vaishnavites or sakthi / karthikeya worshippers. They were agni worshoppers. Sankara brought about the synthesis. and today, 'brahmins' hardly study vedas. Popular culture has made brahmins little different in faiths from other people. And then has come Aiyappa cult to which even Dikshithar composed a few krithis.

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

What is the relevance to the topic ?

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by RSR »

he relevance is counter-point for identifying Lord Shiva too closely with Tamil culture. Lord Siva is of North Indian origin. So is Parvathi. 'himagiri thanaye hemalathe'. All the puranic stories are attempts at fusion of North and South.
What is the significance of Dhakshinamoorthy?
Lord Siva is said to have given the Tamil language. Barathy says 'Adhi sivan petruvittAn''.
I am just mentioning some points. Very difficult to draw any conclusion.
Agama rules seem to be different from vedic rituals. Am I right in thinking that saivite rituals avoid animal sacrifice in any form? All the Murugan temples.
Sankaracharya's do not perform kumbabishekam rituals in tamil country. . I am told that they have no authority.
I soloicit information from scholars in the forum. That's all. No raising controversy.

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by shankarank »


harimau
Posts: 1819
Joined: 06 Feb 2007, 21:43

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by harimau »

shankarank wrote: 21 Sep 2018, 10:50 Saw this article posted recently:

https://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/201 ... rajas.html
So I went to the Wikipedia article on Meenakshi Temple referenced therein.

It seems the European missionaries used to call themselves 'Roman Brahmins' and 'Northern Sannyasis'. :lol:

We all know Veera Mamunivar used to wear saffron clothes and the sacred thread around his torso to trick the Indian public into buying into Christianity.

Yet, Ranganayaki took offense at my suggesting that Father Jegath Gaspar and his ilk's sudden discovery of Carnatic Music may have some ulterior motives rather than its artistic merit.

RasikasModerator2
Posts: 151
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 21:02

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

Please keep the discussion on the topic of Nataraja alone and help make this into a good resource down the road. Thank you.

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by kvchellappa »

Ananda K Coomaraswamy has written a beautiful essay on Dancing Siva. Dr. V S Ramachandran refers to it in his book and also recalls how a foreigner was so impressed with the Nataraja in The Madras Museum and was dancing making the curator doubt his sanity. Nataraja as a symbol has been admired by Huxley and a statue of Nataraja is kept in Cern, Geneva: http://www.fritjofcapra.net/shivas-cosm ... e-at-cern/

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 20 Sep 2018, 21:39 Lord Siva is of North Indian origin.
The argument does not need references to Siva as a God in tamizh literature. The astronomical connotation and the celebration must be old , due to the navigational significance. This later came into Saivism is my point. vEdic rudra became identified with Siva later!

Also see this - Page 15 of 44 <<Corrected>>: http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%203.pdf

mAyOn, sEYon - the later means son - which implies a father! as presiding deities of different lands. That Siva also has a form similar to a hunter lends credence to this.
RSR wrote: 20 Sep 2018, 21:39 Sankaracharya's do not perform kumbabishekam rituals in tamil country. . I am told that they have no authority.
I soloicit information from scholars in the forum. That's all. No raising controversy.
Well what I have heard is, they have some authority to perform abhisheka to the mUrtis in TN, that they settled with the union of India, during the princely state consolidation.
Last edited by shankarank on 24 Sep 2018, 09:54, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by vgovindan »

"நட்ட கல்லைத் தெய்வமென்று நாலுபுட்பம் சாத்தியே,
சுற்றி வந்து மொண மொணென்று சொல்லு மந்திரம் ஏதடா? 
நட்ட கல்லும் பேசுமோ நாதன் உள்ளிருக்கையில்? 
சுட்ட சட்டி சட்டுவம் கறிச்சுவை அறியுமோ?’’

The problem with us is, like dispensers in the medical shop, we all seem to know brand names - to the exclusion of generic. Siva, vishNu are not brand names - they are generic. There is nothing like North or South India. We are homogenous entity bonded with shared culture and values, which now lies fragmented because the artificial fissures created by colonialists who were indeed after soul harvesting - to redeem the aborigines - the White Man's burden. And we have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker.

Btw the simile சுட்ட சட்டி சட்டுவம் is used exactly by tyAgarAja - plagiarism? (dutta pAla ruci teliyu sAmyamE) (enta muddO).
Last edited by vgovindan on 24 Sep 2018, 09:02, edited 1 time in total.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by sankark »

harimau wrote: 18 Sep 2018, 23:10
rshankar wrote: 18 Sep 2018, 22:59
harimau wrote: 18 Sep 2018, 22:52The exception is the Meenakshi Temple in Madurai where Nataraja is shown with his right leg raised. There is a legend associated with it. The Pandya king of Madurai, saddened that Siva would be tired from standing on his right leg, begged him to change his stance and Lord Nataraja obliged his devotee.
Hasn't Smt. Andavan Picchai composed a kRti on this? kAl mARi ADiya kanaka sabhEsA un mEl kAdal konDEn ayyanE - IIRC, in one of the caraNams, the sAhityam goes 'pAdam varundum enRu pANDiyan vENDiDa, vEdan mAlum kANA vimala malar pAdam nI dayavuDan Endi nartanam ADiDa....' referring to this episode.
I am not familiar with the song.

Kal Mari Adiya Kanaka Sabhesa, while alliterative, is incorrect, for the Meenakshi Temple houses the Rajata Sabha! :lol:
It is in interpretataion actually, the whole fun in verses: kAl mAri Adiya kanakasabhEsan becomes/is rajathasabhEsan

kvchellappa
Posts: 3598
Joined: 04 Aug 2011, 13:54

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by kvchellappa »


RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by RSR »

shankarank wrote: 24 Sep 2018, 06:08
RSR wrote: 20 Sep 2018, 21:39 Lord Siva is of North Indian origin.

mAyOn, sEYon - the later means son - which implies a father! as presiding deities of different lands. That Siva also has a form similar to a hunter lends credence to this.
sEyon just means child ( of the Mother Goddesss...of pAlai land) ..suilambu.
RSR wrote: 20 Sep 2018, 21:39 Sankaracharya's do not perform kumbabishekam rituals in tamil country. . I am told that they have no authority.
I soloicit information from scholars in the forum. That's all. No raising controversy.
Well what I have heard is, they have some authority to perform abhisheka to the mUrtis in TN, that they settled with the union of India, during the princely state consolidation.
May be you re right.
Wht I mentioned is true only for tmilndu. It cnnot pply to sRUNGERI or other mutts and Uduppi etc.

ajaysimha
Posts: 831
Joined: 19 Apr 2018, 18:16

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by ajaysimha »

there is one more krithis on natarajar by Venkatakavi.
sundara natarajam in kharaharapriya ragam (he might have tuned in kharaharapriya as name it self says "hara-priya")
http://www.venkatakavi.org/ovk/compositions.html?id=433

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Ponbhairavi »

To sum up:-

-The cult of Nataraja in tamil nadu had been in vogue at least since 1600 years(Karaikkal Ammayar ( 6th century ) who reached the permanent abode under the feet of Nataraja at Tiruvalangadu.
-since then, saints and nayanmars have composed hymns in praise of lord nataraja.
-Sekkijar( reign of kulothunga chola 2 ( 13th century ) is the author of periapuranam for which the invocation song hails Nataraja (. Ulagelam …... ambalathu Aduvan, malar chilambadi vAzhthi vananguvAm.)
-The peria puranam which, along with the life history of 63 Nayanmars, recounts the life of Nandanar ( thirunalai povar ) who lived in the 8th century and yearns to go to to chidambaram.
-The composers like Muthu thandavar, Arunachala kavi,Marimutha pillai,Oothukaadu venkata kavi, !6th and 17th century several decades before Thyagaraja have inter alia ,sung in tamil in praise of Nataraja
- In the 18th century when there was an upsurge of telegu compositions , Not a single song has been composed in telegu on Nataraja neither by Thyagaraja or other telegu composers.. When Gopalakrishna bharathi sang sabhapathiku veru deivam samanamaguma , infront of Thyagaraja, it did not inspire the latter who replied with rama nee samanamevaru .

-Gopalakrishna bharathi has composed the opera nandanar charitham which contains many popular songs on Nataraja. Subsequently in the 20th century there have been plenty
Of compositions on Nataraja.
-The chidambaram temple which is reputed for its shrine of Nataraja dates back to the 13 th century(SEkkizhar and kulothunga cholan.has some peculiar characteristics .Today.It present structure looks different from other old siva temples.Some major alterations appear to have been carried out. None of the 4 Gopurams open ino any main shrine.. Of course Nataraja is facing south as in all siva temples. The shrine of perumal close to Nataraja is quite unique. Even in madurai where Perumal gave Meenakshi in wedding to Shiva .I do not think there is a perumal sannathi inside.
The old wall right in front of Govindaraja is breached to accommodate a smaller gopuram of recent structure. The proof if the breach is quite visible as on top of the old wall there are statues of bulls on either side of the Gopuram of Govindaraja whereas Garudan is the statue on the compound walls of perumal temples. Moreover, outside this newly erected gopuram there is an open courtyard which leads nowhere.
-The chidambaram temple is considered as a Divya desam, but the related compositions of alwars mention not chidambaram but a differenr name which vaishnava devotees call as equivalent to chidambaram.
No shrine for Nataraja seem to exist in any Siva temple in Andhra or karnataka or up north.
Apparently there is much scope for detailed research on Nataraja worship and the chidambaram temple,
The iconography of Nataraja with its intricate and sprawling artwork stands as a marvel of south india’sadvanced technical knowledge in metal alloy making (panchaloga) and castingas early as 10 centuries back when the knowledge of the west was rudimentary in this domain.
THIS is Not a research thesis but only a collection of random observations which struck me.
Corrections are welcome.


RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by RSR »

Ponbhairavi wrote: 03 Oct 2018, 21:02 To sum up:-

-The cult of Nataraja in tamil nadu had been in vogue at least since 1600 years(Karaikkal Ammayar ( 6th century ) who reached the permanent abode under the feet of Nataraja at Tiruvalangadu.

......
Brilliant summing up, Prof. The rule of Imperil Cholas was followed by that of Imperial Pandyas and the most famous of them was the person who gave the Gold roof for the temple. The empire disintegrated due to infighting between the two sons of the pandyan king and one of them invited Khilji to help him! Malik Kafur then invaded and looted the wealth of Tamil country and carried it North. Soon Madurai was for five decades ruled by sultans. It was a general of Krishnadeva raya that restored Madurai to its ancient glory.
Naiker rule followed and there were three centers namely, Madurai, Tanjore and Vellore. Naturally, Tamil lost its leading role in literary output. I would venture to suggest that the situation continued even upto the first few decades of twentieth century.
However, MD composed songs on the deity of Sabarimalai . He could have sung atleast a few on Nataraja. Our musicians should come forward to sing more hymns from thevaram like MMD.

vgovindan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 07 Nov 2010, 20:01

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by vgovindan »

RSR.
At least there is one song of MD - Anands naTana prakASam - kEdAram
http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2007/08/d ... atana.html

MaheshS
Posts: 1186
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by MaheshS »

vgovindan wrote: 05 Oct 2018, 07:44 RSR.
At least there is one song of MD - Anands naTana prakASam - kEdAram
http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2007/08/d ... atana.html
Also Chidambara Natarajam in Kedaram again.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by RSR »

vgovindan wrote: 05 Oct 2018, 07:44 RSR.
At least there is one song of MD - Anands naTana prakASam - kEdAram
http://guru-guha.blogspot.com/2007/08/d ... atana.html
Thank you Govindan Sir.
"Among the Pancha-bhuta kritis, this is on the lord of Chidambaram, where he is worshipped as Akasha (space). Patanjali and Vyaghrapada are the sages who performed penance for the lord to appear here and dance for them. Three thousand sages accompanied the lord from Kailasa, and are called the ‘Tillai MoovAyiravar’ or “Tillai vAzh andaNar” or the Podhu Dikshitars, and they have hereditary rights to worship the lord.


May I share a topical article on Thillai, Nataraja and the hereditary rights of Chithambaram Dikshithars?
Disclaimer...Not that I agree one way or another.
http://www.dinamani.com/sattamani/2018/ ... 06948.html

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Ponbhairavi »

To day morning in a an excellent program of madhuradwani live cast the speaker Smt Chitra murthy informed that sri Arunagirinathar(15 th century ) has composed 67 thirupugazh on the 11shrines of Murugan which are located at various places inside the Nataraja temple.

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Songs on Nataraja

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Ananda naTam ADuvAr - Neelakaanta Shivan
Ananda naTamiDum pAdan – Papanasam Sivan

Post Reply