Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Post Reply
bgopalan1
Posts: 7
Joined: 28 Jan 2019, 14:17

#1 Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by bgopalan1 » 07 Feb 2019, 21:58

In the Lalitha raga Kriti Dikshitar propitiates Goddess Lakshmi but uses some of the attributes of Goddess Lalitha in the charanam: 1.Kamalaambikaam 2.Girijaam 3. chinthaamani sadanaam 4.lalithaam. Right from choosing Lalitha raga for the kriti, all the four words used for describing the Goddess appear to be contradictory to me. Is there any deeper significance for this?
0 x

Sachi_R
Posts: 1441
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20
x 40
x 296

#2 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by Sachi_R » 07 Feb 2019, 22:05

Sir Lalita Tripurasundari is the ultimate female embodiment of divinity who projects Herself as Lakshmi, Sarasvati and Durga. This is a core idea in Shakti worship.

The Lalita Sahasranama is a good example to illustrate it. Please read the last few stanzas of it.
Last edited by Sachi_R on 07 Feb 2019, 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

RSR
Posts: 1300
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 106
x 35

#3 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by RSR » 07 Feb 2019, 22:13

'hiranya varnaa 'g'm harineem,
suvarna rajathasrajam,
chndram hiramayeem laksmeem
jathavedho ma aavaha,'
jathavedho lakshmi manapagaamineem..
SRI SUKTHAM.
The original sanskrit version
http://greenmesg.org/stotras/lakshmi/sri_suktam.php
with meaning in English.
-------------------
The Vedic chant , heard many decades back ,
0 x

bgopalan1
Posts: 7
Joined: 28 Jan 2019, 14:17

#4 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by bgopalan1 » 09 Feb 2019, 11:47

Sachi_R wrote:
07 Feb 2019, 22:05
Sir Lalita Tripurasundari is the ultimate female embodiment of divinity who projects Herself as Lakshmi, Sarasvati and Durga. This is a core idea in Shakti worship.

The Lalita Sahasranama is a good example to illustrate it. Please read the last few stanzas of it.
I agree that all the four words can be interpreted literally. For eg. "Lalitha" means " graceful / beautiful lady" In this way there is no contradiction in the composition. But I feel there must be some reason for Dikshitar to pick up these particular words to describe Goddess Lakashmi in this kirithi.
0 x

Sachi_R
Posts: 1441
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20
x 40
x 296

#5 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by Sachi_R » 09 Feb 2019, 12:18

Dear Sir,
Of course there is this ambiguity. I think I have already suggested an interpretation.
I highlight the words in Green which are specific to Lakshmi and in Red the words specific to Parvati:

Image
0 x

RSR
Posts: 1300
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 106
x 35

#6 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by RSR » 09 Feb 2019, 12:49

'hiranmayeem lakshmim'.. is explicit vedic parlance. for Goddess Lakshmi.
'Lalitha', is mostly used to refer to Mother Goddess....Parvathi, Durga,
--------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps, a word-by-word translation will help in clarifying the point.
0 x

RaviSri
Posts: 511
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31
x 36

#7 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by RaviSri » 09 Feb 2019, 18:07

Dikshitar refers to Lakshmi as ‘srI kamalAmbikAm’ in this song. The Goddess in Tiruvarur is Kamalamba. The sthala purana says that Maha Vishnu came to Tiruvarur to do tapas and attain mukti. Lord Thyagaraja dances on Vishnu’s heart. It is known as ajapA naTnam. Lakshmi not being able to bear the separation from Vishnu comes to Tiruvarur and finds Her Lord in Samadhi, reclining on Adisesha. She then begins her own tapas and attains oneness with the Supreme. Goddess Kamalambika at Tiruvarur is therefore Mahalakshmi and not Parvati. That is why you have two Ambals in Tiruvarur, Kamalambika and Neelotpalambika who is Thyagaraja’s consort and is Parvati. Hence the words ‘girijAm tAm’ used by Dikshitar. I don’t know of any other temple that has two Goddesses. In fact the Tiruvarur temple has three, the other one being Somakulambika, the consort of the Valmikalingam. She is also known as paDi tANDA pathini, as she never goes out in procession.

There are many references to Vishnu and Adisesha in the Thyagaraja vibhakti kritis of Dikshitar. In fact Maha Vishnu and Adisesha are very important entities in Tiruvarur and form part of the highest Advaita tatva signified by the ajapA narthanam at Tiruvarur.
0 x

Sachi_R
Posts: 1441
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20
x 40
x 296

#8 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by Sachi_R » 09 Feb 2019, 18:19

Ravi Sri,
Interesting insight. Thank you.

I couldn't understand the line where you mention "girijAm tAm" Is that an attribute of Lakshmi or Parvati?

I will study the Kamlamba kritis and come back to you. Meanwhile,

Why did Vishnu come to Tiruvarur? Why did Shiva dance on him? Was not Lakshmi, "harivakSasthitaa" hurt or offended?

In which Purana is this story, please? Very curious indeed.
0 x

Rajani
Posts: 1004
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 19:52
x 1
x 28

#9 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by Rajani » 09 Feb 2019, 20:28

I have felt that girijAmtAm should be read as one compound word., girijA+antAm- one close to Girija, as her dear friend. The same letters lend themselves to be split as girijAm and tAm , as well as girijA+antAm.
0 x

Sachi_R
Posts: 1441
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 20:20
x 40
x 296

#10 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by Sachi_R » 09 Feb 2019, 20:33

Yes! i have read this before. Maybe from you only!?
0 x

Pasupathy
Posts: 4767
Joined: 26 Jan 2013, 19:01
x 55
x 44

#11 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by Pasupathy » 10 Feb 2019, 03:00

" Even though I agree that Saraswati/Gouri/Lakshmi have been treated as one in many musical compositions,
for the charaNa line in hiraNmayIm there is a paThantara as girijAptAm indirAm "

See discussion in :
viewtopic.php?t=913
0 x

shankarank
Posts: 2779
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 2
x 97

#12 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by shankarank » 11 Feb 2019, 10:45

RSR wrote:
10 Feb 2019, 12:44
By the way, you surely must have chanted SriSuktham in your boyhood, I surmise. I have heard in my school days, long back. and was hugely impressed, by the chant.
'jatha vedas'. Is it a reference to Agni?
May I have your opinion in the 'hiranmayeem lakshmim' thread, currently in focus?
SrI sUktam as per my Guru's information is a kalpita to vEdas - meaning added later. jAta vEdas has been reinterpreted as viSHNU himself based on various smritis and purANAs as he is in the form of yAgna.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dl ... 4/page/n43

I see that is from the bhAShyakArAs of SrI vaiSHNava tradition.

What is interesting there is the reference to SrI as ArdrAm - a star in Orion - the star of lord naTarAja - an indirect reference to churning of milky way which seen near that constellation.
Rajani wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 20:28
I have felt that girijAmtAm should be read as one compound word., girijA+antAm- one close to Girija, as her dear friend. The same letters lend themselves to be split as girijAm and tAm , as well as girijA+antAm.
Now as regards that, puzzled by a compound girijAntA which should then have a declension girijAntAm. Is that valid? Any other similar usage?

Will it be more appropriate if it were to be girijAnta tAM indirAm

gIta vAdya vinOdinIM
girijAM tAM indirAm

yati maitri [:cough:] demands an extra syllable on that verse to align with other sAhitya, including the preceding line.

Enumerating all second lines;
SrI kamalA-ambikAM parAM,

bhU-sura pUjitAM varAm

mANikya-AbharaNa dharAM

girijAnta tAM indirAm

As tiruvilLayADal movie dialogue goes soRkuTRama (problem with words!) [:cough:] alladu poruL kuTRama (problem with meaning). It started with latter and we tried to fix it with former.

I like the effort to interpret words together. This can also then be reinterpreted as "she is resplendent (indirAm) inside the hRdaya of girija" as anta also means "in". guruguhAntah karaNam in Sankha cakra gadapANim.

That dispels the notion that SrI dIkshitar is just a nAmAvALI kIRtana kArA and SrI tyAgarAja is a bhajana kaRtA , a familiar vibe from music college goers of 80s ( which means this was a general vibe from music community - not isolated) to first deride bhagavan nAmAs - then use that to deride SrI dIkshitar in relation to SrI tyAgarAjA whose kritis spoke something (in bhAvA language!) to rAmA beyond just the nAmA.

We lock them up in their pUjA rooms. And when possible, we ourselves liberate them ( the bigger thread discussion cross linked above!) to make sense of them, when we are not sure ourselves what that means :D
0 x

RSR
Posts: 1300
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 106
x 35

#13 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by RSR » 11 Feb 2019, 12:47

@12-> by shankarank » 11 Feb 2019, 10:45
---------------------------------
Thank you. My teacher used to say, that, jaathavedas' is 'the fire of ritual'. Vinobaji also has mentioned it accordingly. I looked up , in the wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jataveda
----------------
Got a nice and brief note.
"Jataveda (Sanskrit: जातवेद, IAST: jātaveda) is a Vedic Sanskrit term for a particular form/epithet of Agni, the Vedic god of fire.[1]
In a tradition originating in the late Vedic period, but already alluded to in the RigVeda, Agni has three forms: a celestial form (fire of the sun and the stars), an aerial form (lightning and the life-force of vegetation called the 'Child/Embryo of the Waters'), and a terrestrial form (e.g., the altar fire at worship). In this scheme, Jataveda (mass noun) represents the class of terrestrial fires (i.e. hearth fire, kiln fire, and so on), but in particular — as the Jataveda — representing Agni as the altar fire.
In that aspect as the altar fire, Agni-Jataveda was perceived to be the means through which his worshippers were to gain knowledge/wisdom/understanding (veda) of all existence

----------------------
It appears from the text of SriSuktham, The sacrificial fire takes the oblations to the heavenly forces ,propitiates them and grants them the wishes...Material prosperity included!
0 x

RaviSri
Posts: 511
Joined: 10 Apr 2011, 11:31
x 36

#14 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by RaviSri » 11 Feb 2019, 18:12

tAm simply means 'SHE', so girijAmtAm means, She is girijA, alluding to the actual identity of Kamlamba.

Maha Vishnu coming to Tiruvarur and Siva dancing on him should all be looked at from the philosophical point of view. Maha Vishnu is the symbol of the advanced spiritual practitioner. Siva is the true Self that shines in every heart. But the true Self can be cognised only by the advanced practitioner. The ajapA naTanam that is danced by Siva is the Paramatma revealing Itself, i.e., the sAdhakA attaining Realisation. A totally Adavtic concept.

On the purANA level we have the story of Siva dancing on Maha Vishnu's heart at Vaikunta. Vishnu reclines on Adi Sesha, who philosophically, is the symbol of shakti. The shakti also has to merge in the Self. Muchukunda Chakravarti obtains the viTanka Thyagaraja from Devendra and installs Him at Tiruvarur. Since Vishnu has become one with Siva (the self merging in the Self), the sthala purANA says that Vishnu came to Tiruvarur. Following the Lord, unable to bear His absence, Mahalakshmi comes to Tiruvarur and does tapas here.

Vishnu performing tapas and Lakshmi following Him is also part of the sthala purANA of Kanchipuram, where you have the bilam. There Lakshmi is worshipped as arUpa lakshmi. This is just behind the Kamakshi shrine at Her temple. It is on this Goddess that Dikshitar has written 'kAmAkShi srI varalakShmi in bilahari (kAmakOTi bilahari nuta kamalE). In this song too, he has equated Parvati and Lakshmi.

The concept of Ambal consists of all three Goddesses, Lakshmi, Sarsawati and Parvati. And not just Parvati.
0 x

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 491
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28
x 23
x 24

#15 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by bhakthim dehi » 11 Feb 2019, 18:28

The concept of Ambal consists of all three Goddesses, Lakshmi, Sarsawati and Parvati. And not just Parvati.
I feel in this krithi he visualizes Girija as Lakshmi. Though we see the word "kamalambika" , I dont think we need to take it as a direct reference to Kamalambika in Tiruvarur. He clearly describes the abode of Mahalakshmi here as "sveta dveepa vasinim" and "harivakshasthalaalayam" .

Also, I have not come across any sthala puranam considering Kamalamba as Mahalakshmi doing a penance to get united with Mahavishnu (I mean Lakshmi taking this unique form as Kamalamba). Kamalamba here is always considered as Girija or Lalita Parabhattarika. She is the yoga shakthi , whereas Nilothpalambaal is the bhoga shakthi.
0 x

MaheshS
Posts: 1154
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36
x 95
x 59

#16 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by MaheshS » 11 Feb 2019, 21:43

bhakthim dehi wrote:
11 Feb 2019, 18:28
The concept of Ambal consists of all three Goddesses, Lakshmi, Sarsawati and Parvati. And not just Parvati.
I feel in this krithi he visualizes Girija as Lakshmi.
Also I've heard that this krithi was composed by MD when his wife wanted money / ornaments. Is there any truth in the story?
0 x

RSR
Posts: 1300
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 106
x 35

#17 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by RSR » 11 Feb 2019, 22:54

https://sreenivasaraos.com/2012/10/23/srisukta-part-one
to shankaranK->
Sir, You will like the blog cited above...in three parts.
Please do not miss it.
0 x

bhakthim dehi
Posts: 491
Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 21:28
x 23
x 24

#18 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by bhakthim dehi » 12 Feb 2019, 15:55

Also I've heard that this krithi was composed by MD when his wife wanted money / ornaments. Is there any truth in the story?
I think its nothing more than a story.
0 x

bgopalan1
Posts: 7
Joined: 28 Jan 2019, 14:17

#19 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by bgopalan1 » 12 Feb 2019, 22:25

Sachi_R wrote:
09 Feb 2019, 12:18
Dear Sir,
Of course there is this ambiguity. I think I have already suggested an interpretation.
I highlight the words in Green which are specific to Lakshmi and in Red the words specific to Parvati:

Image
Thank you all for the response to my question. From the discussions so far I could only conclude that all the four attributes have to be taken for their literal meanings and not to be taken as the ones associated with Parvati. 1. KamalAmbAm = Lotus mother meaning the Goddess with lotus in her hand or as her seat etc. 2. Chintamani sadanam = who dwells in an abode embedded with Chitamani ( wish yielding) stone. This should not be confused with the Chitamani Gruham of Ambal as believed by the Shakthi upasakas. 3. Lalitham= graceful. Only the word Girijam can not be explained this way as it means "daughter of Mountain". Lakshmi is always described as "Kheera Samudra Raja Thanayam". One thing to be noted is the whole song is in accusative case ( second case-dwivachanam) ) and hence the word endings are "m". This way the word Tham means "her" it is the accusative of "sA" ( She) - streelinga sarvanama sabdam. Tham goes with Bhajami - I worship her. The word "Ardra" occurs in Srisultam also and is not to be associated with the star which is actually spelt as "Ardraa".

Can anybody got idea about in which place or temple this krithi was sung by Dikshitar? The Sthala puranam of that place may through some light on the apparent contradiction.
0 x

RSR
Posts: 1300
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31
x 106
x 35

#20 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by RSR » 12 Feb 2019, 22:34

The word "Ardra" occurs in Srisultam also and is not to be associated with the star which is actually spelt as "Ardraa".
=============================================
Ardra in SriSuktham means wet land. (irrigated land for agriculture)
0 x

shankarank
Posts: 2779
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 2
x 97

#21 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by shankarank » 13 Feb 2019, 01:28

bgopalan1 wrote:
12 Feb 2019, 22:25
One thing to be noted is the whole song is in accusative case ( second case-dwivachanam) ) and hence the word endings are "m". This way the word Tham means "her" it is the accusative of "sA" ( She) - streelinga sarvanama sabdam. Tham goes with Bhajami - I worship her.
Right! SrI dIkshitar is known to compose without verbs , but here there is clearly one. That is why I raised the query , if it needs to be girijAnta tAm indiram - instead of girijAntAm as a samasa. So kAnta is to be split as ka-anta??
bgopalan1 wrote:
12 Feb 2019, 22:25
The word "Ardra" occurs in Srisuktam also and is not to be associated with the star which is actually spelt as "Ardraa".
ARdrAm is how it occurs. After which more interestingly - the bhAShya talks about praakaaraam as chaandasIya prayOgam where praa is elongated to fit vEdic meters! So there is lot of leeway for vAggEyakkArAs to play with seems like!
0 x

bgopalan1
Posts: 7
Joined: 28 Jan 2019, 14:17

#22 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by bgopalan1 » 15 Feb 2019, 12:53

Please refer to my comments dated 12Feb2019. After explaining probable meanings of 3 out of 4 words I had observed:
"Only the word Girijam can not be explained this way as it means "daughter of Mountain".
If we consider Girijaantam as a single word, I could relate the word to Lakshmi. As per V.S Apte's Sanskrit dictionary, the word 'Anta' means 'near'. So Girija + anta = Girijaanta, meaninig 'near and dear to Girija'. So, in this way all the 4 seemingly contradictory words pointed out in my opening blog are explained. However, we have to have our own guess why Dikshitar chose these particular words as well as the Raga. There could be a deeper significance. In most of his krities reference to Sthala puranam of the temple and characteristics of the God/Goddess can be found. Some say this particular kriti was composed at Mannargudi. Hiranmeem Lakshmeem may refer to Sengamalavalli Thayar.
0 x

shankarank
Posts: 2779
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16
x 2
x 97

#23 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by shankarank » 17 Feb 2019, 11:35

For girijAntAm to be interpreted as near and dear to girijA , it has to start with a noun girijantA . The word anta or antah - a preposition if applied to another noun.

So in lalitA sahasranAmA the combined word is : gRhAntastha as in:

cintāmaṇigṛhāntasthā

So it has to be girijAntasthA - one who is near to girija - to make it a noun, before it becomes a declension to girijAntasthAm.
0 x

bgopalan1
Posts: 7
Joined: 28 Jan 2019, 14:17

#24 Re: Hiranmaeem Lakshmeem -Dikshitar's use of attributes of Goddess Lalitha

Post by bgopalan1 » 20 Feb 2019, 21:27

shankarank wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 11:35
For girijAntAm to be interpreted as near and dear to girijA , it has to start with a noun girijantA . The word anta or antah - a preposition if applied to another noun..
I am glad that some thought has been given to the word 'Girijantham'. As per Sanskrit dictionary the word 'Anta' is an adjective, not a preposition. For eg: 'vanaanta' means area near forest region. So, my point is the word in the song can only be explained if we take it to mean 'near and dear to parvati'. Other than this, as I pointed out before, the context of word in the song can not be explained.
0 x

Post Reply